You talk about the South as if we were not here.

[madfloridian]

It irritates me. It is like talking behind our back. There are people in the South, just regular people. Some are very nice, some are not.

Some are just like people from other sections of the country. We normally have two arms and legs, same number of toes as most of you.

Some folks here are extremely religious, perhaps a little more so than other areas. Some of us used to be until our religion was hijacked, and now we are looking for where we belong in the religion continuum.

There are lots of us with a lot of intelligence and education. We know when someone is misquoting a candidate.

My husband is from NJ. He is a transplanted Southerner. He says there is actually less racism than he used to see when he was growing up in the North. I can't say he is right, because I never lived there. He has no reason to lie. I am sure there are some regions where it is worse, and he and I have just not been there.

We talked to a couple of our neighbors this evening, and they brought up our Dean sign in the yard. We talked a while. They are not Democrats, or at least I don't think so. Southern Baptist, as we used to be, but we did not discuss our leaving the church.

I read Dean's remark to them, and they said it was time to address it some way. They said how would someone know how to handle it except to try jumping in and doing something.

Anyway I just wanted folks to remember that the South is here at DU right out in the open. We are mostly just regular people so you might think we are not here. Maybe that is why you just keep talking about us as if we were not a part of the forum.

[Red_Viking]

1. Thank you!

I've been lurking off and on this evening--quite worn out after an early UT/Nebraska game that left me sunburned, Hook 'em--and I had the same feeling. You articulated it beautifully.

I live in Austin, which is a free-thinking oasis stuck in the middle of a wildly conservative state. Still, we continue the fight. I'd like to think one of our candidates has a shot to take some of the southern states. Everyone is in bad shape these days.

When I drive through Austin, I see more and more Dean signs and bumper stickers. Tons of them around the University. I see Kucinich stickers regularly as well! And, Gore stickers all over.

Yep, we're here, and not as a science experiment. Just regular folks trying to carry the torch. Honestly, it's pretty damned hard sometimes. A little credit, huh?

:dem:

RV

[HootieMcBoob]

there are lots of southerners on DU

the problem is that there aren't enough. we need lots more. so that we wouldn't have to worry about picking a candidate from the south just to placate those southerners that aren't as open minded as DU southerners. every now and then the best candidate is a candidate who happens to be from the northern part of the country but their chances in the general election are slim due to the voting patterns of a large number of folks down south. by all means get your friends and family and sign them up! the more southerners at DU the better :toast:

[morningglory]

18. In the horriible year 00, there were Bush signs e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e n/t

[pruner]

2. welcome Southerners

Dick Gephardt is not interested in your vote.

:)

[wndycty]

3. Or maybe he does. . .

. . .he just smart enough not to stereotype southerns as people who have Confederate flags on their trucks.

[Red_Viking]

15. Been down here lately?

My high school's mascot was Johnnie Reb (I graduated in 1984). We had a giant confederate flag on the side of the school. Our fight song was "Dixie." I'm not making this up. At football games, a volunteer student organization took turns running a giant confederate flag up and down the field. My high school was very well integrated. Most of the student volunteers were minorities. You get the irony, right?

It's more common than you think--but the good news is that most of the yahoos who ride around with confederate flags on their trucks have never thought about what it means. I believe there's a chance for folks whose minds have been closed for a long time to open them and maybe think a little.

On the other hand, I also think getting twisted in knots about a symbol is really causing people to miss the point. Read some Howard Zinn and it might make more sense. He talks about the successful campaign by the landed slave owners to keep the white servant class from joining with the black slaves. The slave owners were by far outnumbered by these two groups. The solution? When a white servant was given his freedom, he also received land and some money. That made him have a different perception of his rich neighbor. The impoverished whites have been kept from locking hands with the impoverished minorities for 200 years over the perceived promise of an increase in their status, a gift not available to impoverished minorities.

So yeah, lots of people have confederate flags on their vehicles. They just haven't ever thought about why or what it means.

:dem:

RV

[Yupster]

46. We still have a

Robert E Lee HS in town The team's the Rebels. The flag was changed a few years ago though.

When I got my master's from New Mexico State U. , the Yearbook was the Swastika, and that was only 20 years ago.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. Read the thread I posted here tonight about Howard Zinn!

Howard Zinn: "The Confederacy never invaded the Philippines."

I think you're right that most who have a Confederate flag on their car or truck don't think about the meaning much beyond home/ South/ resist the Yankees.

Everyone understands that the Iraqis don't like their land being occupied but can't understand that Southerners had their land occupied and have been denigrated ever since by the people who conquered them! It doesn't really matter who was right or wrong in any war -- the conquered resent the conquerors for generations. Look at the Irish, the Balkans, etc.

[ChoralScholar]

63. hey viking

Are you from Fort Smith, AR?

[Art_from_Ark]

67. Ft. Smith, AR

The home of the Southside Rebels.

And the city that gave J.P.Hammerschmidt his margin of victory in his 1974 Congressional race against Bill Clinton.

[Eloriel]

59. And "smart enough" to reject the ones who do. n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

5. What's that supposed to mean, pruner?

Why is Dick Gephardt not interested in our vote?

[JohnKleeb]

6. pssst Gephardt wants to be the candiate of those with American flags

on their cars.

[ShaneGR]

11. Pathetic

Why hijack the thread for a Gephardt attack?

[JohnKleeb]

13. I wasnt attacking gephardt sheesh

Hes not my candiate of choice FYI but I do like the work he does for labor, labor imo has a great friend in Dick Gephardt in this race.

[pruner]

8. Gephardt is a divider… not a uniter

"I don't want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Gephardt said in a statement.

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-2004,0,1055729.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[Lefty48197]

12. I think Gephardt meant that he wasn't going to pander to the white racist

vote. I don't think average southerners fly the KKK flag, it's just the nuts.

[Tatiana]

4. Hey, I LOVE Southerners.

Most of my family lives in Arkansas, Mississippi, Virginia, and Florida. As far as I'm concerned, we're all in the same shithole.

[KoKo]

7. What was Dean's remark. Could you clue me in? I don't read candidate

threads all the time, so I missed it.

[Lefty48197]

9. Thanks for reminding us that there are Democrats in the south

I'm sure you're not as small a majority as it appears, but there just aren't enough southern Democrats speaking out like you are.

[bookman]

10. Nice Post

I think the right kind of approach can reignite some of us in the south.

I'm a southerner now from NJ. I concur with your husband.

Recaputuring some of the south is what peaks my interest in Clark's campaign. I like much of what Dean has to say. Beating Bush is my #1 priority.

[Julien Sorel]

14. Dean talks to the South

like black folks don't exist. Some of us with a lot of education and intelligence. We know when someone takes us for granted to the point where he panders to the single most hated symbol to our people in the history of this country.

[HFishbine]

19. Oh Please

It's quite obvious that your indignation has more to do with your candidate of choice than with anything Dean has said or done. Otherwise, you wouldn't go so far to mischaracterize Dean's comments.

Dean hardly "pandered to a hated symbol" (if that's even possible, can one pander to a symbol?). He was in fact laying the ground work for an effort to get whites who have never identified with blacks to begin thinking in a different way:

"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Think about it.

[Julien Sorel]

26. A mindreading Deanite.

The powers of The Howard have increased greatly, I see. You have the power! To read the mind of a stranger on a message board. Now that he's 'empowered you' with the ability to mindread, it's time to donate more money to his campaign.

I would never walk side-by-side with someone who flies the Confederate flag, and I doubt they would be too pleased at the thought of walking next to me, either. It's one of those little things called a 'red line.' Think about it.

[HFishbine]

29. Okay

You're defending red-lining? Okay, whatever.

[Julien Sorel]

33. Done so soon?

Water ----------------

Head ----> O

[quaker bill]

39. Not too brite

You seem prepared to cast off a whole group of people you obviously do not know. That would sort of meet the textbook definition of predjudice.

I have no use for the confederate battle flag. Consign it to the dustbin of history as far as I am concerned. However, you place far more meaning on this symbol than most of the people I have met that use it.

I thought progressives were supposed to be more open minded and tolerant. But apparently not to the extent that you could step aside from your fear and actually meet the people, rather than the caricatures of them marketed by the mass media.

You are right, some people use this symbol in a profoundly racist manner. Most, in my experience of actually meeting them, do not.

By the way, lots of racists would never display this symbol, it is far to obvious.

[Julien Sorel]

43. Like many, you are missing the point,

probably intentionally.

You are right, some people use this symbol in a profoundly racist manner. Most, in my experience of actually meeting them, do not.

A person so callous and ignorant as to fly the Confederate flag is simply not someone I'm interested in. There is absolutely no way you can grow up in this country and not know what it means. It's a symbolic 'fuck you' to a large number of people in this country, nonsensical talk about 'Southern heritage' aside.

[Maddy McCall]

30. Dean CONDESCENDS to the worst element of the south...

which truly does NOT represent the views of the majority.

His statements repulsed me, because what he said only serves to perpetuate the myth that we still cling adoringly to the bygone days of the antebellum, slave South.

[Eloriel]

60. jchild, you haven't yet demonstrated that you have actually

comprehended what he said.

You are repulsed at something you're imaginging.

Eloriel

[Maddy McCall]

68. To your satisfaction? I never will.

Even though I have never participated in a candidate debate thread before tonight, I have been well aware of your position and that you demonstrate little objectivity when it comes to Dean.

I am "imaginging" nothing.

[Forkboy]

64. lol

like you had any positive thoughts about Dean before all this :eyes:

[John_Shadows_1]

16. another southerner, and dean had a point...

... the White working class down here has been duped by the Republicans, they vote on ethnic 'wedge' issues instead of in their actual interests. And the DLC has abandoned them - going with the bloc votes in the bigger cities, and interest groups. They're not standing up for working people.

On the other hand, the way that Dean verbalized this dynamic was crass and insensitive.

[alarimer]

51. he has a point

I wish that he had not put it exactly that way, however. I think poor people of any color should vote Democrat because the Republicans will do nothing for them. Dean was generalizing too much. Many white southerners are very conservative, however. There is that hurdle to overcome. I don't know why so many people vote against their own self-interest but as long as the right-winger have them bamboozled about "family values" I am not sure the Dems can make many inroads. Maybe Dean can but I am not optimistic.

[Don_G]

17. Tell Me About It

Born in California, grew up nationwide and stuck in Kentucky when my father was accepted in a Civil Service job that Regan privatized at his retirement age.

My Mom wasn't nearly so lucky....

Ideals are okay and fine so as they are theory, but a lot of us have got to live with the results of idiots like DINO's and Dimbo.

Remember that and don't forget that we respect both DU and Will Pitt; they know, they listen and hopefully we Dems can get something organized and nationally motivated soon.

[karlschneider]

20. Well, actually, most of Florida is not "the South". I lived in Tampa for

18 years and worked around the entire state during that time. Really
the panhandle and basically the part of the state north of
Gainesville/Ocala, roughly, are populated by the kind of marginally intelligent persons I would consider "southerners" according to the vernacular.

There are of course pockets of idiocy, mostly in the interior regions, reaching down to Monroe County, (and including for some odd reason, Naples.)

I have no problem with southerners (whatever that really means - it's a fairly well accepted generality that Arkansas is a "southern" state), although it's really no more south than my own state, Oklahoma, and of course is home to our last elected President.

Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and some chunks of Louisiana, Texas,
S Carolina mostly comprise the enclaves of idiot rednecks. I should add we have more than I would like here in Oklahoma as well.

Enough for now; I do not mean to impugn any broad geographical area, the mindset (?!) that seems to be concentrated in the areas I mentioned is what gets me exercised, appalled and just plain pissed.

[madfloridian]

23. Well, Karl, that is how to win the hearts of North Florida.

"part of the state north of Gainesville/Ocala, roughly, are populated by the kind of marginally intelligent personsI would consider "southerners" according to the vernacular."


That really works, Karl. Good job. They are more conservative in that area, but they are not dumb. I will bet the GOP does not talk about them that way.....at least not out in the open.

Also you just managed to insult all Southerners. Good job, Karl.

[karlschneider]

31. I rest my case.

Insulted ALL Southerners? Call 1-800-ABCDEFG

[madfloridian]

36. I am surprised your name-calling has stayed.

"populated by the kind of marginally intelligent persons I would consider "southerners" according to the vernacular.

(You are saying Southerners by default are considered marginally intelligent.)

There are of course pockets of idiocy, mostly in the interior regions, reaching down to Monroe County, (and including for some odd reason, Naples.)

(A lot of nice people live around that area.)

Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and some chunks of Louisiana, Texas,
S Carolina mostly comprise the enclaves of idiot rednecks.

(Well, gee, folks in those areas just love the term "idiot rednecks".]

I started a nice thoughtful post. I resent what you have brought to it.

[QC]

56. But you just don't understand.

Certain forms of prejudice--like class and region--are perfectly acceptable even among the most immaculate bleeding-heart circles. Folks who burst into tears at the thought of the travails of the one-armed basketweavers of Outer Franistan can let words like "redneck" trip lightly from their tongues without the slightest awareness of irony.

[Forkboy]

66. I wouldn't get too upset

Karl seems to be on a tear lately.The other day he was claiming he didn't sorry at all for victims of the Cali fires.

[dad]

54. -

And you should stop now before saying anything MORE stupid ..

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

22. There is no excuse for rudeness like that.

I put up a decent post, and I did not slam anyone. If you are that ugly to me just for my post, then you go on ignore. I have a right to be here without feeling anger all the time.

[tsipple]

24. Thank you for checking in!

There are WAY too many DUers who have no clue what people living in southern states want, need, or think. (Actually, it goes deeper than that. A lot of people ignore the "flyover states," including the South.)

Republicans have used race as a wedge issue for years, and it's worked. It's time for Democrats to talk openly and honestly about this crap. Howard Dean has been doing that for months, to all audiences.

[John_Shadows_1]

25. agreed.

n/t

[quaker bill]

27. Another southerner saying thanks

By the way, I am a NJ transplant as well. I agree on your husband's take on things. There is generally less racism here than I saw up there.

No doubt we have our share of racists. But we do not have a corner on this market by any means.

[Maddy McCall]

28. YES! THANKS!!

We are here and we are just as pissed as people in other regions at what is going on in OUR country.


And the vast majority of us do not wave rebel flags and remeniscingly sing Dixie.

[MrPrax]

32. Good post...

and from the heart

Southerns are generally denigrated and if an honest survey were done by Northern liberals, then they would begin to reflect on the 'southern' problem.

You rarely hear an honest southern accent, for instance, and the attempt to throw the confederate flag at any person born, in whatever the North (meta-narrative nationalism) thinks is the South is exactly the same ugly stereotyping 'liberals' decry when some else attacks other cultures and nations.

An old wound that should heal, and the democrats are the best to do it

[Ambassador Hope]

34. I am new, why do they attack people from the south on here?

I ask some southern people who visit hawaii about this flag issue. They said it hurts our party the dems because the yell and scream about it in states they have no power but the states they have gov. they do not do anything. If they flag is so bad, why do they not take it out in the states they control.

I don't know much about it but if we are running a state, should we not take it out.

[JanMichael]

37. "They" do not all "attack" the South.

However there is a strain of South bashing that occurs here.

As the Zinn thread pointed out...The Federal Government didn't lift a (definative) finger to stop Jim Crow laws until Blacks took matters into their own hands.

[Ambassador Hope]

40. What is the big deal of a flag?

I am from southern Hawaii, so I do not understand. To me Dean is trying to win and go after votes. Why should anyone care if someone has a flag and votes for him? I thought we are trying to beat bush.

[JanMichael]

42. Um...You've heard about the Civil War & Slavery, no?

There are some, myself included, that don't consider public places (Like State Houses) to be appropriate places for symbols (Flags) that represent a certain affinity (for many people) of a time best left in the past.

[Ambassador Hope]

44. Yes but why do dem gov's not take them down

This is what I was told that bothers people in the south. If they flag was bad, why not take it down in dem controlled states?

[JanMichael]

48. Not all elected Dems are like all DU'ers.

:shrug:

[JanMichael]

35. Hell Oregon had exclusionary laws!

Ie. Blacks were verbotten.

No racism there in happy clappy Portland...

[QC]

57. The KKK dominated the Oregon legislature in the 1920's

and passed a number of discriminatory laws against Asian immigrants and Catholics.

[maggrwaggr]

38. I'm amazed how nice people are in the South

whenever I'm there that's what I notice.

The worst racism I've ever seen is in the north, where there are so few black people that they're treated like freaks.

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. No doubt! I'm not even a southerner, and it bugs me!

I've lived in the south, though, and people are no different there than they are anywhere else. Some different foods, and minor regional things, but that's about it. It's the same thing with people of different races, too. We all are just as much alike as we are different, and focusing on minor differences when all the major things are the same is just stupid.

I still drink my tea in a mason jar since I moved back north. :D

[Robin Hood]

45. Personally, As a democrat.

I don't mean to bad mouth the South, But as a Western State Democrat, I am tired of always worrying about whether a Dem candidate can win the South or not. I am tired of having the Dem party held hostage by the South. Is that wrong?

I want to hear about whether or not a candidate will win in my State of Oregon, which is becoming more and more freepish by the hour.

[madfloridian]

47. I am the South, and I am not holding any party hostage.

Sorry. If the Democratic Party is being held hostage, it is by their own timidity.

[JVS]

50. Yeah, the South gets too much attention

[alarimer]

52. more electoral votes

Candidates tend to focus on those states which have the most electoral votes or those that are in play. I mean, how many electoral votes does New Hampshire have? 3? Plus states in the north have lost population while states in the south have gained population (generally speaking- some of those trends may be changing in some states).

[JVS]

55. NH would have won Gore the election

It would have been easier to pick up than most southern states. Ohio is also a better place to use resources than the South.

[tedoll78]

58. Yes!

Ohio, Arizona, and Missouri. I'd take all of the money that the Dems spend in the South, and put it into those three states and the Gore states that are close this time around. (That's pretty much what George Soros will be doing with his $75 million GOTV money..)

BTW.. it's not illegal to "leak" internal polling showing certain southern states close - even if the polling is really false. If Florida & Tennessee are within the margins of error of these polls, Bush's campaign would almost be forced to defend them with extra time and money.. just to be safe..

[QC]

61. Bad strategy for a number of reasons.

One, the Southern and border states hold app. 60% of the electoral votes needed to win. "Writing off the South," as someone proposes here every couple of days, is the equivalent of running a 100 yard dash in which your opponent gets to start at the 60 yard point. Sure, it's still possible for you to win, but it's a hell of a lot harder.

Two, there's a little thing known as the Congress. "Write off the South" and you can say goodbye to any chance of ever controlling even one house again.

Three, if we "write off the South," the chimpresident gets to spend his whole $200,000,000 in "our" states. Imagine the havoc he can do with that much money spread over so few states.

Four, it ignores the reality of the region's politics, which is that the Democrats are much more competitive in some Southern states that in some others outside the South, like the mountain states. We have a good shot at, say, Arkansas, Louisiana, and maybe even Georgia. Hell will freeze over before we carry Utah, Wyoming, etc. Even New Hampshire, the state people often like to use an example of somewhere we should fight, has only gone Democratic twice in the past thirty years. Why give up states you have a good chance at winning in order to chase after those you're less likely to get?

[SahaleArm]

62. If Oregon goes Repug..

I'll eat my sock. All bets are off if the Greens vote green:).

[mw]

53. Well, you're not a southerner. You're from Florida.

Big difference. :D

[RebelOne]

70. You're right

I was born in Pennsylvania, but lived in So. Florida since I was 4 years old. But never considered myself a southerner. I have been in Georgia since 1989 and still consider myself a transplanted northerner.

[Rhiannon12866]

65. I love the South

My grandmother moved to North Carolina and I visited her often. I loved the area and the people. I know we need a Southerner on the 2004 ticket, which would be probably be Graham or Edwards. I could support either. I don't think DU has anything against Southerners, unless you count George Bush*, who is not really a Southerner.:shrug:

[Clark Can WIN]

69. Lived in North Carolina for 6 years

Everybody I met who displayed the rebel flag was a fucking racist.

[Maddy McCall]

71. THANK YOU! I have been saying that all night!