The problem with conspiracy theories.

[Silverhair]

There are so many of them, and so many of them conflict each other. I have been told that the Masons, Roman Catholics, Illumnati, various European families (Mostly Krupp), secretly rule the world. Each apart from the others of course.

I have been told that the U.S. Gov't has secretly brought in a one million man army of foreigners, that they are in hiding in the U.S. and the the meteric road signs are for them, when they come out to take over. I have been hearing variations of that one for over 40 years.

I have been told the moon landing was a gov't fake using Hollywood techniques.

The left claims that the CIA killed JFK beacuse he was about to pull out of Vietnam. The right claims that the communists did it because he was a hawk who had made them back down in Cuba and was about to kick butt in Vietnam. I have been told that Castro had it done as payback for the poisoned cigars. And some others have said that the mafia had it done as paybacks for RFK's anti mob actions. And I have been told that LBJ did it because he wanted the spot.

I have been told of connections between Bremmer & Hinckley.

Blacks have told me that Asians don't pay income taxes.

I have been shown a list of the Clinton's mysterious deaths. Someone else has a similar list on the Bushes.

Carter lost because of a secret deal between Iran & Reagan. (Carter extremely bad economy had nothing to do with it.)

Let's not forget all the black helicopter stories.

The UPC bars on the stuff you buy is really Satan preparing you to take the number 666 on your hand.

HIV was invented by the CIA.

The Gov't is spraying the population with poison from high altitude planes and everytime you see contrails it is that poison. (My local newspaper believes that one, and that AIDS was invented by the CIA in the mid 60's)

Do conspiracies every happen in real life? Yes, but to be sucessful they have to stay small with very few people in the know, and the actions have to be simple. When they get complex with lots of people involved, they fall apart. It becomes impossible to control it. Nor can a conspiracy be effective over a long term, because unexpected events will happen that they can't deal with. (That is part of the results of the laws of chaos math, or complexity studies as it is now called.)

Conspriracy theories are born from feelings of helpless to explain why a person or group failed. It wasn't beacause they screwed up, it was because the other side cheated them. It is only when you abandon the emotional crutches of crazy theories, face your errors, learn from your mistakes, that you are able to win. Making excuses is for losers.

[Goldmund]

1. The biggest conspiracy theory of all...

...is that there are no conspiracies.

[tom_paine]

21. You are right, there is no such thing as as Conspiracy!

Here are some crazy conspiracy theories from the past, which as we all know to be completely false fabrications:

One wacky conspiracy theory had a group of African-American men who were told that they were being treated for syphillis when they weren't, so that scientists could track the progress of the disease. Those crazy conspiracy nuts had a name for this fictional occurrance..."The Tuskegee Experiments".

Would you believe that insane conspiracy theorists also though that the US had something to do with the Ba'athist rise to power in Iraq in 1963, and that the US sold chemical and germ warfare components to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s. Of course that is absurd, isn't it? They should lock those people up who think that, eh?

Another conspiracy theory from the "lunatic fringe" was the existance of a fictituious FBI program known as COINTELPRO, in which FBI agents supposedly used disinformation tactics to break up civil rights and peace organizations. But we all know that never happened.

Nut jobs for some reason also believe that in 1972 the US had something to do with the removal of Chilean President Salvatore Allende, replacing him with bloodthirsty dictator Augusto Pinochet. But that is insane, as it has long been proved that the US had nothing to do with it, right?

Crazy conspiracy theoriesits also thought that there was a systematic attempt in 1971-73 by Nixon and the Republican Party to bug the offices of the DNC, create a Dirty Tricks Squad, utilize government law enforcement organizations for political purposes, build up slush funds and utlize rogue CIA agents domestically in violation of the law. But of course we know that was an utterly crazy, false conspriacy theory, eh?

In the mid 1980s, thse conspiracy nuts were at it again, asserting that a massive and illegal conspiracy to generate millions of dollars was run out of the White House basement, selling arms to terrorists in order to generate under-the-table funds to be funneled to Contras in Nicaragua, who had their legitimate souc=rces of funding cut off due to the fact that they couldn't stop raping nuns and killing priests, among other things. Of course we know THAT never happened, but those nutty conspiracy theorists persist in their crazy beliefs, eh?

In 2001, Enron supposedly gamed the California Power System using computer programs with names like "Death Star" to systematicaaly starve the California Power Grid and drive prices up even though there was ample power available.

You are right, what nonsense and HOGWASH all those were, eh?

(where's the :imwithstupid: icon when you really need it, eh?)

[radwriter0555]

23. Oh pushaw! Those kinds of things could NEVER happen here in AMERICA.

that would be.. unamerican....

[Must_B_Free]

50. Let's not forget MKULTRA

the CIA's attempt to make the perfect spy - a spy who doesn't know he's a spy. Let's just pretend it never happend, and that the CIA didn't kidnap innocent and unsuspecting Americans and Canadians and give them massive doses of LSD and shock treatment. Let's pretend theat there was no congressional investigation into this in 1977 and no 1/2 hour documentary on The History Channel.

And lets pretend that all the shooters of liberal heroes are really just "lone nuts", and not the result of some type of brainwashing, as even stated by Sirhan Sirhan.

Yeah - there's no conspiracies.

Happy now?

[Skip Intro]

2. Now that we know what's foolish to believe

please tell us what's wise to believe...

[rooboy]

3. If somebody told you that the Pope was...

deliberately suppressing compelling evidence that the Earth was round, at the time you would have dismissed them as a conspiracy nut. But you'd have been wrong.

[Old and In the Way]

4. Hi Silverhair (me too!)

So, obviously, if there are no conspiracies, they must be coincidences. Lots of coincidences, I guess. One could even say you are promoting a coincidence theory for all these "events".

[foo_bar]

11. yes, it's called evolution

But most folks prefer a narrative where the strings are pulled from on high (or "intelligent design" if they're losing the argument). Conspiracies-by-virtue-of-unknowability are a form of religion since they're unfalsifiable. That doesn't mean they're untrue, just based on faith instead of reason.

[Abaques]

62. Thank you for getting to the heart of the matter!

After dealing with some bizarre Wellstone crash thread I came to that conclussion.

[Maple]

5. While there are certainly

some wild ones out there, history shows us that conspiracies have always existed, some discovered, some not.

And many were very big...secrecy isn't as difficult in large numbers as you might imagine.

The best place to hide, as they say, is in plain sight.

How about Richard III and his nephews, William Rufus or Wm II, Henry II, Mary, Queen of Scots, Guy Faulkes, Thomas A Beckett, the Potato Famine, the Aum cult of Japan, Watergate, Enron, the WTC, PNAC?

The reason why conspiracies thrive and succeed...is that no one wants to believe them, so they can happen right under our noses and yet be denied.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. "Not all conspiracies are created equal"

Some sound advice from conspiracy researcher John Judge:

...

Not all "conspiracies" are created equal. The government did kill JFK, and they lied about it. That does not mean there was never a Holocaust, or that the world is run by the Illuminati. The blindness of Chomsky and the other left structuralists is that they make the class out to be monolithic and without mechanisms to carry out its will. They fear that if you think there was any reason to kill a president then you don't understand how capitalism works, and that you will be filled with false hope about the Kennedy clan, who were only more of the same old ruling class. They can't let themselves think JFK could really have intended to pull out of the Vietnam war, since he went along with legacy left him by Nixon and the 40 committee, which included the Bay of Pigs operation already on the books.

But when JFK saw the CIA and the Cubans in action he refused to be pushed into sending American troops into Cuba. When the Joint Chiefs were ready and raring to go into full scale nuclear war with the USSR during the missile crisis, JFK was almost the only level head in the room who refused. And he WAS pulling out of Vietnam. He had given the orders and forced the Joint Chiefs to project that withdrawal by the end of 1964 during the month of April, 1963.

...

But it's not enough for Howard Zinn and Alexander Cockburn, much less Max Holland and David Corn. They want more dirt, and they want us never to notice a tree for fear we will miss the forest. The hard truth of the matter is that the left critique of Kennedy, and there is one to be made, is not the issue. It is the right's critique of him that mattered, what Generals Curtis Lemay and Lyman Lemnitzer thought of him and what they did about it.

Chomsky says that such "conspiracies" only exist outside the mechanisms of state power, are rare and are stopped when discovered (like Contragate he claims). And yet, when you raise the assassination of Martin Luther King with him then he becomes a "conspiracy theorist" too, saying that it was planned at the highest level of government, maybe using the Mafia, and covered up. He says they had a REASON to kill Dr. King. So, with them, it's just a function of how much you liked the guy whether he was done in by coincidence or not. Gee, maybe they'll start to wonder about the Wellstone plane crash?

...

Until we know, we cannot act. And if we act on rumor and impulse then we are no less a slave than those who live in the denial that the propaganda machines promote. So, be cynical and question things, but be analytical and scientific so you can approach the truth when you speak. Three truths don't make a fourth just by mentioning them. All lies, in fact, depend on having elements of the truth in them for verismilitude as its called. Read, don't repeat what you last heard. And if you are going to be more than a theorist, then give conspiracy the respect it deserves, and prove it. Good hunting, and always come clean.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/notAllCequal.html

[Robert Murphy]

17. Op2HQ: They Know Too Much...

My take on (for lack of a better term) "Conspiracy Theory":

I. It is true: shadowy groups of amoral individuals within secreted within our most vital institutions have committed acts of fiendish depravity, and always under the most blindingly strict secrecy. How do I know this? First managed to infiltrate the Illuminati through the backdoor of the Knights Templar--I bribed a Mason for their unlisted number--then connected the rest of the dots after successfully hacking into the Mother Company's Control Network. Oh, and I also read it in the Washington Post, The New York Times, The Independent, et al.

But seriously...

The damning dope is out there, and one need not sift through 'fringe' internet sites or pulp newsletters to find it. There is enough in the archives of the nation's premier newspapers to fill every Federal minimum security prison in the country to overflowing. (And probably top Leavenworth to boot.) The problem is that most Americans get their news solely from television. Television news is dominated by entertainment values. Dark depressing tales of anything from corrupt defense contractors to dirty little CIA proxy wars in the Third World are not entertaining, nor are such things as moral ambiguity. The rare times that official malfeasance provokes genuine public outrage, a few powerful white men in suits do go to jail. Unfortunately, however, it seems Americans don't like to be outraged. (hey, I know I don't---it's just that nowadays I can't help it!) And if outraged prefer to be outraged over rather trivial and fleeting things...

(Damn, there goes that goddarn librul elitist in me again...)

# II?

'Conspiracy theorists' ascribe far, far too much compotency--if not sheer Machiavellian genius--to those who would carry out said conspiracies and see that the six or seven score they enlist into their plan take the secret to the grave. (Bump 'em all off? Sure! But as any Mafia don will tell you, a little too much enthusiasism and the live ones start to sing like canaries...)

Well anyway, perhaps one can always join the neighborhood militia, just to hedge the bet ;-),

Robert

[newyawker99]

18. Hi Robert Murphy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[9215]

37. Welcome, and well said

People on the fringe often pick up bits and pieces of a conspiracy event and then it is distilled through the dialectic.

What sends up a red flag for me are people who try to stop that process by slapping the conspiracy label on a topic before it goes through this process.

[belle]

31. Thank you.

[maggrwaggr]

7. throwing out the baby with the bathwater

What's cunning about our current government putting out an "official story" that doesn't make any sense is this:

It puts every other explanation on the level of "conspiracy theories" like you've mentioned above.

You understand that?

One of those famous nazis said it is easier to make the people believe a big lie than a small lie.

We've been fed some whoppers lately. Oh, you don't believe them? Then you're a nutcase "conspiracy theorist."

[Syrinx]

8. But an awful lot of those conspiracy theories...

Have something to do with the Bush family. And that's no bull.

[bigmonkey]

9. Can I recommend a book?

It's "Everything Is Under Control" by Robert Anton Wilson. It lists and describes all of the major ueberconspiracies, and some of the minor ones. It's fascinating to browse through; it's like a reference book for the "lay" conspiracy fan.

The one I subscribe to is Bucky Fuller's: that the world is run by competing groups of what he calls Great Pirates, who are groups experienced with manipulation and use of force. From his point of view, the only reason they haven't been put out of business is that so many people are used to living under them that they have developed behaviors to accomodate the Pirates. In other words, they only survive because we let them, and fear them.

[Silverhair]

10. That sounds like a fun read. Thanks. n/t

[Military Brat]

12. Call it a scheme, then

If the "C" word makes you antsy. Technically speaking, it takes a minimum of only two people to make a conspiracy, such as two kids conspiring to put a thumb tack on the teacher's seat. And if you don't want to call it a conspiracy, then call it culpable negligence.

It's unhealthy not to be at least a bit paranoid when there is every reason in the world to be a lot paranoid. It's called the survival instinct.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. or call it the pattern recognition of high crimes

We're not talking Elvis sightings and UFOs here, after all.

[rman]

13. heard of Watergate, Iran-contra?

At some point those to were nothing but conspiracy theory, untill these theories turned out to be correct.
Indeed in the end all conspiracies do fail, though some last longer then others.

[TomNickell]

24. YES! Proves his point, doesn't it???

These are small operations compared with (say) planning 9/11 out of the Oval Office. And, THEY GOT CAUGHT!!!!

[tom_paine]

30. So everyone who commits a crime gets caught, Tom?

You got me there. It's true. If we haven't heard about it, there is no way it could have happened.

Brilliant.

[TomNickell]

49. NO, but some of them do....

Even rather simple things like the Watergate burglary or Iran-Contra go awry.

In any case there has to be EVIDENCE before reaching conclusions.

[rman]

57. "Watergate was small". sure, dude.

-

[iangb]

15. We all have our favourites.

In Australia, the major conspiracy theories surround the disappearance of our PM Harold Holt when swimming in about 1969.

Holt went swimming in strong surf and currents......and was never found. Within days 'eyewitness' reports of what could have been a Soviet submarine started circulating......and sure enough conspiracy theories grew like blowflies on a dead roo.

The 'secret radio transmissions using special frequencies to control people's brains' theory still gets dragged up hereabouts.

[Zorra]

16. shrub didn't lie about WMD in Iraq,

9/11 was just an amazing screwup, Evoting devices are totally incorruptible, and shrub really did win the election in Florida.

And I have some land on Mars that I'm selling really cheap if anyone is interested.

[trof]

19. You left out the Rothchilds

and the Bilderbergers.

[Octafish]

20. "Conspiracy" comes from the latin word: "To breathe together."

Thus, in its evolved form, "conspiracy" means people who desire the same result. It does not limit its coverage to those who meet in a secret, undisclosed location to discuss ways to overthrow the world, but it helps.

Large, complex conspiracies do exist and are successful. For an example whose criminality still haunts us today, please check out via GOOGLE:

Iran-Contra. It involved selling sophisticated arms and spare parts with the terrorists responsible for the taking Americans hostage in Iran and the Middle East and using the profits to fund terrorist thugs killing innocent men, women and children in Nicargua. The conspiracy involved top politicians from the Reagan-Bush White House and leaders of the US government in mass murder, international money laundering, importing illegal drugs, and the illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government — all in the name of national security. The reality is this conspiracy may have fatally harmed our Democracy.

BTW: Another good read on conspiracies is: Jonathan Vankin. Conspiracies, Cover-Ups and Crimes: Political Manipulation and Mind Control in America, Paragon House, New York, pp. 163–164 (1991)

[tom_paine]

22. You are right, Silverhair, there is no such thing as as Conspiracy!

Here are some crazy conspiracy theories from the past, which as we all know to be completely false fabrications:

One wacky conspiracy theory had a group of African-American men who were told that they were being treated for syphillis when they weren't, so that scientists could track the progress of the disease. Those crazy conspiracy nuts had a name for this fictional occurrance..."The Tuskegee Experiments".

Would you believe that insane conspiracy theorists also though that the US had something to do with the Ba'athist rise to power in Iraq in 1963, and that the US sold chemical and germ warfare components to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s. Of course that is absurd, isn't it? They should lock those people up who think that, eh?

Another conspiracy theory from the "lunatic fringe" was the existance of a fictituious FBI program known as COINTELPRO, in which FBI agents supposedly used disinformation tactics to break up civil rights and peace organizations. But we all know that never happened.

Nut jobs for some reason also believe that in 1972 the US had something to do with the removal of Chilean President Salvatore Allende, replacing him with bloodthirsty dictator Augusto Pinochet. But that is insane, as it has long been proved that the US had nothing to do with it, right?

Crazy conspiracy theoriesits also thought that there was a systematic attempt in 1971-73 by Nixon and the Republican Party to bug the offices of the DNC, create a Dirty Tricks Squad, utilize government law enforcement organizations for political purposes, build up slush funds and utlize rogue CIA agents domestically in violation of the law. But of course we know that was an utterly crazy, false conspriacy theory, eh?

In the mid 1980s, thse conspiracy nuts were at it again, asserting that a massive and illegal conspiracy to generate millions of dollars was run out of the White House basement, selling arms to terrorists in order to generate under-the-table funds to be funneled to Contras in Nicaragua, who had their legitimate sources of funding cut off due to the fact that they couldn't stop raping nuns and killing priests, among other things. Of course we know THAT never happened, but those nutty conspiracy theorists persist in their crazy beliefs, eh?

In 2001, Enron supposedly gamed the California Power System using computer programs with names like "Death Star" to systematicaaly starve the California Power Grid and drive prices up even though there was ample power available.

You are right, what nonsense and HOGWASH all those were, eh?

Those laws against "Conspiracy" are all bullshit, too, since we have conclusively shown there is no such thing and all is it is loser-whining. We should remove those stupid laws from the books, such as "Conspiracy to Defraud" and "Conspiracy to Commit Murder" because these laws are NEVER USED, as we all know, because these CONSPIRACIES NEVER HAPPEN and it only gives false crdence to the brand of nuts known as "conspiracy theorists".

(where's the :imwithstupid: icon when you really need it, eh?)

[TomNickell]

26. Your list is not related to SilverHair's list. Not at all.

You put together a long list of foul deeds and, yes, conspiracies. All now well known, non-secret. Open public knowledge. All exposed by normal means of investigation and inquiry.

What-on-earth has this to do with 'Theories' about Black Helicopters, and International Jewish Conspiracies, and Clinton Murdered Vince Foster, and Bush Shot Kennedy, and Remotely controlled jetliners, Death Rays hit the Pentagon, and Explosive-dropped-the-Twin-Towers, the CIA planned 9/11?

[TomNickell]

27. And, while we are at it.....

How come you brilliant fellows who know ALL about these nefarious plots are still here and posting on the internet?

I mean, if you know so much and THEY have so much power, aren't you in a lot of danger?

Just keep your eyes open for those BLACK HELICOPTERS.

[tom_paine]

29. It surprises me not at all that you completely missed the point, Tom

Of course not all propsed "conspiracy theories" are true.

But to make a blanket assertion that by definitin that makes them all absurd is false.

Another thing:

You say that these conpiracies are All now well known, non-secret. Open public knowledge. All exposed by normal means of investigation and inquiry.

I must ask you...are you being intentionally obtuse? One suspects so. The reason being that, before they were exposed "by normal methods of investigation", each and every one was in the realm of left-field wacko conspiracy theorists.

Look it up, smart guy, look it up.

You also asked What-on-earth has this to do with 'Theories' about Black Helicopters, and International Jewish Conspiracies, and Clinton Murdered Vince Foster, and Bush Shot Kennedy, and Remotely controlled jetliners, Death Rays hit the Pentagon, and Explosive-dropped-the-Twin-Towers, the CIA planned 9/11?

Well, I'm happy to tell you, Tom. While not all conspiracy theories are not necessarily true, neither are they all false.

The conspiracies I mentioned, prior to their discovery, were all relegated to wild "conspiracy theory", something that you and old Silverhair would have likely treated with open contempt for their "out there nature".

Now that they are sanitized sufficiently that you feel free to believe in them, you can point out to the "differences".

But, prior to their investigation, there was no difference between these and other conpiracy theories. Had you lived then, you would have treated them with as much contempt as you seem to have for those yet uninvestigated by "normal means".

Finally, if indeed, all conpsiracies that are real are investigated by normal means and exposed, it theerfore follows that no guilty parties are walking free for any crimes at all due to the efficacy of "normal investigations".

Well, since that is clearly the case, you sure showed me.

[Isome]

42. I like your style tom_paine...

Very well said!

You could also cite the scandal involving the CIA selling crack cocaine in South Central Los Angeles in order to fund the U.S. covert war against the people of Nicaragua.

"Without the Honduran military there would have been no Contras. $14 million (to finance arms) came from drugs." (through Honduras.) - Oliver North's diary 7/5/85.- Oliver North then intervened to get an absurdly lenient sentence for General Jose Bueso-Rosa, convicted of smuggling tons of cocaine into the U.S.

"We don't need to investigate . We already know. The evidence is there." - Jack Blum, former Chief Counsel to John Kerry's Subcommittee on Narcotics and Terrorism in 1996 Senate Hearings. - The Medellin Cartel gave more than $10 million to the contras.

Four firms listed by DEA as major smuggling operations were on the CIA's list of approved vendors and each received hundres of thousands of dollars in State Deparment subsidies while they were dealing drugs: DIACSA - SETCO - VORTEX - FRIGORIFICOS DE PUNTARENAS.

Some conspiracies are true.

[charlie]

46. Excellent example, Isome

You beat me to it. People who thought there was evidence for CIA complicity were long derided as tinfoilers. Gary Webb lost his job and suffered the indignity of his newspaper running an apology for his work. John Kerry was called a "conspiracy buff" in Newsweek and Charlie Rangel was quoted in WaPo as saying that no evidence had been presented linking the Contras to drug smuggling, dead opposite of what he'd actually said. Only through instinting resistance to government and mainstream media suppression did vindication of the charges come about.

[jokerman93]

79. Bada-bing!

Well said Tom_Paine. I like reading your posts.

The disdain toward people who are intellectually curious and perceptive enough to question and investigate the less accessable mechanics of world events is nothing more than a form of unenlightened obscurantism.

On edit:
Sure there's plenty of folks out there who never learned the line between verifiable research and television fantasy. But those people, though not paticularly helpful, are also playing a significant social role.

I often make a parallel between our modern day "X-file" types and the peasantry who have always kept folklore alive in the culture. Conspiracuy theory from that point of view, has more in common with the rich psychological content of fairy tales and legend that has been passed down and changed over the centuries.

I like to take a broad view here and not confuse the two phenomenon.

[TomNickell]

25. Good Work, SilverHair

I doubt you will make much of a dent in these fellows.

But little seeds of doubt might stop the next Timothy McVeigh.

[hang a left]

28. Well since you know so much Mr. Nickell,

I wish to be enlightened with your great knowledge of the events that preceeded Sept. 11. What do you think really happened? WHat data are you using to convince yourself.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. Bringing up unfounded conspiracy theories

doesn't prove they are all the product of losers, who use them as an excuse for being losers.

What about the Rockefeller conspiracy to monopolize on oil refineries. It was completely true, and it was the reason we created the antitrust laws.


What about he experiments on black men with syphilis in the 30s 40's and 50s.

The military experiments with LSD, and amphetimenes on our soldiers in the 50s and 60s?

What about the vote purge in Florida?

What about the cia's assasination of Alliende in Chile, and the overthrow of several Latin American governments?

[birdman]

33. There is evidence for all those things

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Bushes
killed Wellstone or that they were involved in the
Kennedy assassination and yet those things get presented here
a couple of times a week as fact.

[9215]

38. Maybe not yet.

But there was also a time when the conspiracies listed by classical liberal were simpy theories.

[foo_bar]

40. the theories aren't problematic

it's "faith" in these theories that precludes observation. Maybe Christian fundamentalists are 100% right, or maybe Rastafarians are. If one of these theories turns out to be absolutely true, its adherents will have reached the truth by accident, like solving calculus differentials by writing "2x" every time until they're right.

[birdman]

41. Well, then, maybe the CT's should wait until there is evidence

before presenting things as facts and reacting with
hysteria when they are dismissed as, well, CTs.

[9215]

43. Like Bush did with Iraq?

If Bush can start a war on baseless accusations, then I can call him a murderer of political opponents with alot of circumstantial evidence.

This really is the horrendous double standard that these fascist bastards use to stay in power. They hold their opponents claims to a near impossible standard to meet while the enforce no standards of evidence for themselves before they act. It is the cornerstone of tyranny.

The bastard destroyed the whole process of evidenciary procedure and decision making. His ass should swing after a tribunal of the victims families from 9/11 and Iraq find him guilty.

[hang a left]

45. AMEN brother!!!!!!!!!!!

[birdman]

53. Helloooo!

I agree that the war was started by lies.

In what way does this relate to the Kennedy
assassination ?

It’s a plot, Mandrake

[9215]

56. Well, if you can't understand it maybe get liberalnproud to

explain it.

A third parties opinion is less likely to be biased. ;)

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[9215]

66. We must use the standard Bush has set for taking action.

I didn't set the standard and I can hardly be required to meet a higher one while he doesn't. It comes under equal protection principle I think. But even if it isn't specified it is obvious that the game is rigged.

Of course you know exactly why Bush is allowed to do what he wants and poor fools like me and you have to walk the primrose path. It is simply because he has the power to dictate the rules and then make them up as he goes along to suit his agenda. In addition he subverts all attempts made by those attempting to get at the truth.
It is that simple.

If you disagree please state how we should deal with this rigged game.

[birdman]

76. Bush's lies about Iraq

obligate you to believe things that have no evidence
to back them up.

Okay, maybe it's me.

[hang a left]

44. It is pretty easy to manipulate the evidence when you are the one

investigating.

[9215]

60. Hence the need for independent investigations

What person wanting to find out the truth would be against an independent investigation?

[Classical_Liberal]

47. Ok

? Some conspiracies are true and some are false. I see no reason conspiracies should be dismissed out of hand though. The main reason so many conspiracies are out now is because the PNAC conspiracy turned out to be true. When real conspiracies are uncovered it natually fuels paranoia. The conspirators created the climate with their lies.

[birdman]

78. PNAC wasn't a conspiracy

They were right out front about what they were going to do.
They even have a web site with their position papers on it.

Is there a web site for grassyknollassassins.com ?

[Classical_Liberal]

90. They created a web site yes

but they didn't advertise that website or promote their opinions in the media. By en large people who brought it up were discredited by them, with hostile smears. Just look at how David Frum has treated anyone that brought up the pnac. He either called them crazy or antisemitic.

[nolabels]

80. Can we inject a little comedy in with the fueling of paranoia

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:hGrovyziEZ8J:www.conspire.com/chaps/70GCATSampler.pdf+70+Greatest+Conspiracies+of+All+Time+Sampler&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(snip)
The Internet:Tool of Satan

The Internet is a great place to shop for shoes, gather celebrity gossip, start up a business and net a quick zillion ortwo. At least, that's what you're supposed to think. What if theruse of a dot-com wonderland merely cloaks the Web's true agenda, and agenda far more sinister than, say, turning Matt Drudge into a household name?

We all know how the idea of the Net was spawned bythe U.S. Defense Department back in 1969: In the aftermath of anuclear war, even as the red rain fell on the barren wastelandthat was once North America, the military needed to be sure thatits top brass could send e-mail to one another. Of course, no onein 1969 had the slightest idea what e-mail was. Thus, they hadto invent it. But what would transmit this “e-mail” from place toplace? The Internet, naturally. So they invented that first.Because speaking to people with slightly funny ideas isone of the things we are known to do, we spoke to some con-spiracy theorists about the Internet and found, not really to any45one’s surprise, that in their view the Internet’s military originsare not so innocent -

- and the conspiracy extends well beyond a paltry plot to invade your privacy by tracking your credit cardspending and the porn sites you surf on your lunch break.The conspiracy theorists believe a powerful group that includes businessmen, politicians and intellectuals has long been manipulating world events from behind the scenes, workingtoward the goal of a quasi-fascistic, one-world government.
This cabal has a name: The Illuminati. As with many other great developments, the Illuminatiare (is?) behind the Internet, these conspiracy theorists say. Butwhy?
(snip)

[Silverhair]

96. You realize that someone is going to take you seriously.

I know a lady who actually does believe that the internet is a tool of Satan. I reminded her that I have an internet business, (A small one person thing that I do for some extra income.)and she knows what I do and that it is honorable, yet she still maintained that it was the Satans tool.

[nolabels]

100. What are you talking about, it's all true except for the name of the......

loose knit group that is actually doing it. From the selling of the kind of socks you wear to who to who gets named president. Prove me wrong and why do wear that brand of socks anyway?

On Edit: I take that prove me wrong back, because if one looks they can always find exceptions to any rule. My brother lives next door and our mother lives in the back. The whole clan, nine or ten of us, (except for grandma in the back) spend inordinate amounts of time online. Grandma justs considers Satan a part time player in the realm of the internet

[tom_paine]

61. absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence

[Silverhair]

64. Elephant joke

1st kid: Why do elephant paint their toenails different colors.
2nd kid: I don't know.
1st : So they can hide in the jellybean bowl.

1st kid: Have you every seen an elephant hiding in the jellybean bowl?
2nd : No.
1st : They hide real good don't they?

Abscense of evidence of elephants in the jellybean bowl is not evidence of the abscense of elephants in the jellybean bowl.

[tom_paine]

65. You haven't read a thing I've wirtten, have you?

And of course, bringing more sneering arrogance to the debate is always the way to go, isn't it?

So, I presume you thought Watergate was a wacky conspiracy theory in 1972?

It was, you know. Librul revisionist history, like saying McCarthy was a bad guy.

But you do pompously sneer very well.

Is there an Olympic event in sneering? Perhaps you can represent the Empire in 2008 (or is it a winter event?).

Glad you started this thread, silverhair. I can see you haven't been doing enough pompous sneering. You are likely getting grouchy and thus I am happy to provide an outlet for you.

Please sneer some more. Enjoy yourself. Go hogwild.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. SSSSSSSSSS!

Hissing you Tom! Simply because you used a canard of the right.

Just in case you hadn't considered this, there is NO SUCH THING AS EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE! One can never prove the lack of existence of anything.

So, when the right says it, it makes my skin crawl. Same when i read your post. Hopefully, it was sarcastically written.
The Professor

[tom_paine]

68. Et tu, Professor?

It may be a canard of the right, but, as I recollect it is also a legitimate logical fallacy.

I have read of it in many places, most recently in Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World", the chapter entitled "The Baloney Detection Kit".

I respect you and your posts very much, Prof, and will give what you say some thought and consideration.

But I still stand by what I've said.

[KFC]

77. Holy shit. I thought Einstein was dead.

I am blinded by the brilliance.

"absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence"

Say it again, brother.

[foo_bar]

39. what about the one where Hillary shoots Vince Foster?

Same religion, different denomination. It isn't falsifiable, just like "Rumsfeld bombed himself", because no amount of evidence will change the preordained conclusion for some people. The problem with Conspiracy-Creationism (as opposed to fact finding investigation or journalism) is the conclusion is the antecedent to the hypothesis. No Creationist will accept an answer besides "God dun it", and no Conspiracy-Creationist will take "Saudi terrorist" for an answer.

Of course, I don't take "Rothschild-Rosicrucian" for an answer, so I'm equally guilty of making science my religion, as the Creationists say. But I'm not opposed to a Mason solution, or even the Biblical account of Genesis, I just find them unnecessarily complex. The earth may well be the center of the universe, but I'd rather disregard epicycles than gravity.

[WoodrowFan]

73. Nice post

I'll take the judgement of a peer-reviewed discussion of professional historian over the rantings of some conspiracy nuts. Go to a meeting of the AHA and ask the historians who specialize in Kennedy who killed him and the overwhelming majority will say "Oswald, acting alone."

[Silverhair]

95. Thank You.

However, scholarship in is in short supply among the CT crowd.

[Minstrel Boy]

34. US juries have found that conspiracies killed both JFK and MLK

Surprised?

E Howard Hunt lost on appeal a libel suit he'd filed after former CIA operative Victor Marchetti's article "CIA to Admit Hunt Involvement in Kennedy Slaying." Hunt's testimony is damning, and it's the subject of Mark Lane's Plausible Denial, one of the most important books documenting the ongoing cover up.

"While it's a matter of record, quietly disregarded by most news media at the time, that Lane won the case, the degree of his success in trying Hunt, in effect, for the murder of Kennedy only emerges in this book. Jury forewoman Leslie Armstrong offered this assessment of the trial: 'Mr. Lane was asking us to do something very difficult -- he was asking us to believe that John Kennedy had been killed by our own government. Yet when we examined the evidence closely, we were compelled to conclude that the CIA had indeed killed President Kennedy.'" http://www.northwood.edu/~grover/jfk/jfk91a.html

And in 1999, a civil court found that King's death was the result of a government conspiracy:

"The jury returned with a verdict after two and one-half hours. Judge James E. Swearengen of Shelby County Circuit Court, a gentle African-American man in his last few days before retirement, read the verdict aloud. The courtroom was now crowded with spectators, almost all black.

"'In answer to the question, "Did Loyd Jowers participate in a conspiracy to do harm to Dr. Martin Luther King?" your answer is "Yes."' The man on my left leaned forward and whispered softly, 'Thank you, Jesus.'

"The judge continued: 'Do you also find that others, including governmental agencies, were parties to this conspiracy as alleged by the defendant?' Your answer to that one is also "Yes."' An even more heartfelt whisper: 'Thank you, Jesus!'"
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/MLKconExp.html

Either of these cases are candidates for "the trial of the century." Have you even seem them reported in the corporate media?

Now, since these are judgements of US courts, can we stop spreading these silly "lone gunman" stories?

[birdman]

35. Why conspiracy threads become so heated

Several reasons:

1) CT's present their theories as fact(e.g Bush had Wellstone
killed)even if there is no real evidence to support the claim.

2) Their sources are usually of dubious veracity. Anyone who would
cite Michael Ruppert or Mark Lane or Fletcher Prouty as a source of anything would take the Weekly World News seriously.

3) When confronted with inconsistencies and lack of evidence they
accuse people of being a part of the conspiracy (sent here to throw the courageous conspiracy hunters off the track) thus reinforcing the notion that they are simply paranoid individuals. How many times have we seen
people on this board accused of working for pick one:

Karl Rove
The CIA
A voting machine company.

[thebigidea]

59. about as many times as we've seen your oh so funny strawberries thing

i.e., many many many more times than needed.

[Padraig18]

36. The REAL problem with conspiracy theories...

... is that they become so numerous, people overlook the times when there might *actually* be one... :eyes:

[Classical_Liberal]

48. That is an excellent observation

for the longest time even after finding out about the PNAC I refused ot call it a conspiracy, because some of the sillier ones out there, that I didn't want to be associated with.

[Minstrel Boy]

51. The fault for that lies chiefly with the national security state,

not with those who have found cause not to take it at its word.

It will take a thorough and transparent truth and reconciliation commission to lift these shadows from America.

[knowledgeispower]

71. Amen minstrel boy

I don't know if the shadows will ever be lifted. Instead, I think the shadows will become so numerous that the light is stifled and the whole damn house of cards falls down. Perhaps THEN something better can occur.

[knowledgeispower]

70. Or maybe they just *are* so numerous

What do you call a conspiracy? Was Enron a conspiracy? Was Tyco? Was Worldcom? Was the choice to fool the American public into believing Saddam Hussein was a threat (and behind 9/11) a conspiracy? How about the choice to attack Afghanistan immediately following 9/11, despite the fact that the hijackers all came from Saudi Arabia? What about holding people prisoner off of U.S. shores (in Guantanamo Bay) so that the military isn't subject to U.S. laws governing what they can and cannot do to prisoners? What about the time Jeb conspired with his Secretary of State to have 50,000 black voters removed from the voter registries so that his brother would have a better shot of winning Florida?

I say those are all conspiracy theories, and they are all true as well. Plus they are all huge in their implications, AND they all have happened since 2000! Maybe some of the far out ones aren't, but as a whole I think there are conspiracies operating about us every damn day.

[dutchdemocrat]

52. Banned Consiracy of Silence video, Child sex ring in Bush Sr's lap

Truth or Lies? Consiracy? Watch the video.

A True Story About Sex, Child Abuse, Murder and Drugs, Covered up By Authorities

-------------

“Conspiracy of Silence”, a documentary listed for viewing in TV Guide Magazine was to be aired on the Discovery Channel, on May 3, 1994. This documentary exposed a network of religious leaders and Washington politicians who flew children to Washington D.C. for sex orgies. Many children suffered the indignity of wearing nothing but their underwear and a number displayed on a piece of cardboard hanging from their necks when being auctioned off to foreigners in Las Vegas, Nevada and Toronto, Canada. At the last minute before airing, unknown congressmen threatened the TV Cable industry with restrictive legislation if this documentary was aired. Almost immediately, the rights to the documentary were purchased by unknown persons who had ordered all copies destroyed. A copy of this videotape was furnished anonymously to former Nebraska state senator and attorney John De Camp who made it available to retired F.B.I. chief, Ted L. Gunderson. While the video quality is not top grade, this tape is a blockbuster in what is revealed by the participants involved.

----------------------------------



----------------------------------

Various takes on the story.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1579613.php
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conspiracy/11_02%20Peculiar%20Ties%20Connect%20Boy.htm
http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/franklin.htm
http://davidicke.www.50megs.com/icke/magazine/vol5/bush/bush21.htm

---------------------------------

Videos

Higher quality WMV Windows File
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/conspiracyofsilence2.wmv

Stream with Realplayer http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/conspiracyofsilence56k.ram

Download Realplayer file
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/conspiracyofsilence56k.rm


The background behind the video.

In mid-1993, after The Franklin Cover-Up had been circulating for almost a year, the British-based TV station, Yorkshire Television, sent a top-notch team to Nebraska to launch its own investigation of the Franklin case. Yorkshire had a contract with the Discovery Channel to produce a documentary on the case for American television.

They spent many months in Nebraska, and also travelled this country from one end to the other, interviewing, filming, and documenting piece-by-piece the Franklin story as I had told it in the book. They spent somewhere between a quarter-million and one-half million dollars investigating the story, deploying probably a thousand times the resources and abilities that I personally had.

Over the year that I worked with them, I was amazed at the team’s ability to gather new documents and witnesses which kept opening up new and frightening facts about Franklin. They were a crack team. In the final weeks that they were in Nebraska, they expressed their certainty that they would win awards for this documented horror story of government-sanctioned abuse of children; and government protection of some of this country’s most powerful businessmen and politicians, who had been the chief acts in the Franklin story.

Finally, the big day came. Their documentary was to air nation-wide on the Discovery Channel on May 3, 1994. It was advertised in the TV Guide and in newspapers for that day. But no one ever saw that program. At the last minute, and without explanation, it was pulled from the air. It was not shown then, and has never been broadcast anywhere since.

I have a copy of that program, which arrived anonymously in my mail in late 1995. When I watched this pirated copy, I could see clearly why the program had been suppressed. Conspiracy of Silence proved, beyond doubt, that the essential points I had stressed in the book (and more) were all true.

For instance, the team had interviewed Troy Boner. Sometime after that grand jury was over, Troy, guilt-stricken because of his lying over Gary Caradori’s death, contacted me and told the truth about what had happened. This is recorded in a remarkable affidavit (see Chapter 20). The Yorkshire TV team spent a small fortune to confirm Troy’s charges. They flew Troy to Chicago and paid for a lengthy polygraph (lie detector) test at the Keeler Polygraph Institute. With the results of that test, the Yorkshire team was so convinced that Troy was telling the truth, that they featured him in their documentary.

It was only in mid-1996, that I finally pieced together, through sources I am not at liberty to disclose, what happened to stop the broadcast of this documentary.
1. 1. At the time the Yorkshire TV team and the Discovery Channel were doing the documentary, they had no idea how high up the case would go into Government, and what major institutions and personalities in this country, would be found to be linked to the Franklin story. Ultimately, the documentary focused on several limited aspects documented in this book, and developed them much more extensively than I ever had the resources or abilities to accomplish.
2. These areas which the documentary focused on, were:

(a) the use and involvement of Boys Town children and personalities in the Franklin Scandal, particularly Peter Citron and Larry King’s relationships to Boys Town;
(b) the linkage of Franklin to some of this country’s top politicians in Washington, and in the US Congress, with particular attention on those who attended parties held by Larry King at his Washington mansion on Embassy Row;
(c) the impropriety of these politicians and businessmen and compromising of these people by Larry King, through drugs and using children for pedophilia.
3. When the broadcast tape was sent to the United States, Customs officials seized the documentary and held it up as being ‘pornographic material’. Attorneys for Discovery Channel and Yorkshire TV were able to get the documentary released. Then, the lawyers went through the film for months, making this or that change or deletion, so that the documentary ultimately advertised to be shown on the Discovery Channel on May 3, 1994, would survive any claims of libel or slander that any of the individuals identified in the documentary might attempt to bring. The lawyers had cleared the documentary for broadcast.
4. During the several months that the documentary was being prepared and advertised for showing, major legislation impacting the entire future of the Cable TV industry was being debated on Capitol Hill. Legislation, which the industry opposed, was under debate for placing controls on the industry and the contents of what could be shown. Messages were delivered in no uncertain terms from key politicians involved in the Cable TV battle, that if the Conspiracy of Silence were shown on the Discovery Channel as planned, then the industry would probably lose the debate. An agreement was reached: Conspiracy of Silence was pulled, and with no rights for sale or broadcast by any other program; Yorkshire TV would be reimbursed for the costs of production, the Discovery Channel itself would never be linked to the documentary; and copies of Conspiracy of Silence would be destroyed.

Not all copies were destroyed, however, as I and some others received anonymously in the mail a copy of the nearly-finished product.


When the Discovery Channel program, Conspiracy of Silence, was being prepared, the British investigative team insisted that they would not go forward on the program unless they had the on-camera personal interview, and verification of Bill Colby himself, that John DeCamp was reporting the truth with respect to Franklin, and with respect to this book, The Franklin Cover-Up. Colby went on camera, and thoroughly shocked the Yorkshire TV team in how strongly he came out, risking himself, to support me and my work on Franklin.

Bill also wrote a letter to Attorney General Janet Reno, in which he strongly recommended that the Justice Department investigate this case from the standpoint I outlined in my book, a copy of which he enclosed with his letter. He got a formal response back from a Justice Department official, promising that the Department would indeed look into the case.

But then, Bill had always backed me up, right from the earliest days, beginning in Vietnam.


;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


Not only did King’s pedophile ring lead to the top echelons of the Republican Party it also lead to the top of the Bush administration and the Oval Office. Several of the children in Kings prostitution ring recount stories of seeing George Bush at some of King’s Parties. While an outsider would not suspect anything amiss, the children in the ring would know what was taking place. At least one of King’s young prostitutes reported that at one party, she saw George Bush pay King and then depart with a young black man. The President was a pedophile and involved in a pedophile ring, the story had to be squashed at all cost. King is currently serving fifteen years for the failure of the Franklin Credit Union. At least two of his victims have been wrongly imprisoned for refusing to recant their testimony. Meanwhile pedophiles like George Bush are free and able to abuse other children all in the name of national security.

[dutchdemocrat]

54. kick

kick - what the heck.

[knowledgeispower]

74. Disturbing

I don't know what to say. Somehow this seems even worse than 9/11 LIHOP.

[KYDEM]

55. Kick

n/t

[Rich Hunt]

58. the problem with conspiracism

The problem with conspiracism is that it appeals to a paranoid mindset, where you begin with a view of the world, and select things to fit that view. Conspiracism just offends my intelligence, because the arguments defending it are made on emotional appeals and vague, paranoid descriptions of what is "out there".

Once again, I can't give enough credit to Political Research Associates and their excellent page on conspiracism :

http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/conspiracism.html

Conspiracism as Parody of Institutional Analysis

The conspiracist analysis of history has become uncoupled from a logical train of thought. . .it is a non-rational belief system that manifests itself in degrees. Conspiracism blames individualized and subjective forces for economic and social problems rather than analyzing conflict in terms of systems and structures of power. Conspiracist allegations, therefore, interfere with a serious progressive analysis--an analysis that challenges the objective institutionalized systems of oppression and power, and seeks a radical transformation of the status quo. Bruce Cumings, put it like this:

"But if conspiracies exist, they rarely move history; they make a difference at the margins from time to time, but with the unforeseen consequences of a logic outside the control of their authors: and this is what is wrong with "conspiracy theory." History is moved by the broad forces and large structures of human collectivities."

This page is particularly relevant to DU:

http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/conspiracism-07.htm

Consider a message sent through a computer bulletin board for progressive political activists. Following an excerpt from a Kennedy assassination book, which attributed JFK's killing to "the Secret Team--or The Club, as others call it...composed of some of the most powerful and wealthiest men in the United States," the subscriber who posted the excerpt commented,

===We, the American people, are too apathetic to participate in our own democracy and consequently, we have forfeited our power, guided by our principles, in exchange for an oligarchy ruled by greedy, evil men--men who are neurotic in their insatiable lust for wealth and power....And George Bush is just the tip of the iceberg.

Scratch the "radical" surface of this statement and you find liberal content. No analysis of the social order, but rather an attack on the "neurotic" and "greedy, evil men" above and the "apathetic" people below. If only we could get motivated and throw out that special interest group, "The Club," democracy would function properly.

[knowledgeispower]

75. Bullshit

Defrauding the American public into believing that Saddam Hussein was both a threat to national security and behind 9/11 was a big fucking conspiracy...albeit a painfully transparent one (but then again, the American public *IS* pretty damn stupid these days). Do you think THAT won't prove to change history?

The problem with people that won't give any credence to ANY conspiracy theories is that they don't understand what is at stake in the world.

[Rich Hunt]

83. you misunderstand

That's not the type of "conspiracy" my post talked about.

That's not "conspiracy" as a substitute for analysis. The problem with conspiracy theorizing is the analysis that often accompanies it, and the bad reasoning that supports it.

The Iraq / 9-11 link was deception - powerful institutions use it every day.

Also, it's not a "theory" that they lied about Iraq - it's a fact.

[birdman]

84. Governments spin policy decisions all the time

It's not a conspiracy - we know who's doing it and why and how.

It's SOP for all governments.

There are, however, people who choose to live in a world controlled
by dark forces, shadow governments and secret societies. They exist on the right as well as the left. For righties the conpirators are UN types government agencies and for lefties they tend to be part of the national security apparatus.

[shance]

85. And you mislead.

I believe that any attempt to promote shame in those who are scrutinizing suspicious acts or to exhude a false air of superiority is nothing less than essentially attempting to suppress the truth.

If you are saying that the word conspiracy is not an accurate term for seeking the facts, then I would probably agree. Other than that, your post is condescending and overall pretty ridiculous.

I find those who are closed minded and cannot face the consistent patterns of deception being played upon Americans are somehow emotionally stunted (and perhaps immature) in their inability to confront and accept elements of reality that are apparently too overwhelming for certain brains to comprehend.

[bpilgrim]

69. it's hard to tell the difference

but the responcibility for the truth is up to ourselves.

peace

[Jose Diablo]

72. How about this

Many conspiracy theories are started to discredit a theory that has hidden truths.

By starting 'conspiracy theories' those that have things they would rather not have examined all that close, a method to discredit critics gains momentum before the critics can fully develop the information. When the truth is discovered, the critics have already been labeled as crackpots.

How is this for a conspiracy theory?

[JackRiddler]

81. Common uses of the phrase "conspiracy theory"...

1) A label applied by otherwise reasonable people to dismiss, without examination, any political assertion they prefer not to consider - especially assertions about widespread white-collar crime, or government crimes so hideous they cry out for a revolution (and thus implicate the listener for his or her inaction). The CT term is also often trotted out by people who don't want to seem ignorant. ("What do you mean, I know nothing about the Carlyle Group? Why should I? It's just one of those CTs!")

2) A label applied by right-wing people to dismiss any and all left-wing critique, whether the latter has a conspiratorial element or not. (Next time you're with your Republican relatives, just try talking about the concept of a ruling class, or describing Cheney's tenure at Halliburton, or describing the open initiative known as PNAC, and see how long it takes before they call it a "conspiracy theory.")

3) A label applied to dismiss uncomfortable historical facts or possibilities about one's own country, especially its above-ground and legitimate institutions. (Speculations about "the mafia" are allowable; but even well-grounded ones about your state governor's connections to the mafia are CT. Russian secret agents blow up apartment buildings in Moscow to make Putin president? Sure. But American secret agents would never willingly endanger their own people!)

4) A derogatory label for class theory of any kind, which I first heard applied by my 8th-grade Social Studies teacher. (We were reading the Communist Manifesto - unusual school, I know - and she told us that "the bourgeoisie" did not really exist, or at any rate act as a class; hence it was a conspiracy theory devised by Marx. I laugh when I hear Chomsky dismissing CTs, since I have so often heard people attack his own work as CT.)

5) A trigger. A command to the majority of well-conditioned Americans that announces: Turn off your brain! Do not examine - do not even consider this idea! Engage in ridicule! Compare it to aliens and Elvis sightings! An excellent example of mass mind control at work.

NOTE: #5 is often used disingenuously by people who probably know better, but who have some form of career or psychological investment in their role as clever "debunkers" (Gerald Posner, Ari Fleischer, "Birdman," etc.) Once the debunker has lumped you into the general category of "conspiracy theorists," it ceases to matter what you actually said. You will be associated with, or forced to defend, every CT ever invented.

6) A label that people who do analyze government crimes often idiotically apply to their own work, discrediting themselves and mystifying the otherwise pedestrian phenomena of old-boy networks, mafia and crime into more romantic-religious concepts like "the Illuminati."

7) A potentially useful term for modeling the micro-level (networks) of what well-trained sociologists prefer to think of on a macro-level (classes, institutions).

Conspiracy theories...

--are often so banal they are not even recognized as such. ("I think my wife is cheating on me" is also a conspiracy theory, one involving the wife and her lover.)

--are often wrong (duh, no shit), or completely fictional...

--are intentionally exaggerated or misrepresented by those who want to discredit them...

--are often whacked-out, over-extended or absolutely all-encompassing to a ridiculous degree (like the Grand Jewish Conspiracy)...

--are often genuinely dangerous (ditto)...

NOTE: Grand Conspiracy Theories (all-encompassing explanations for everything in the world) are often hard to distinguish from religious beliefs that, however, are universally tolerated by comparison. (Consider the idea that Jesus came back from the grave and got his disciples speaking in tongues, a bona-fide conspiracy theory if ever there was one. This is accepted or tolerated by many people who, however, will attack other, well-founded speculations about contemporary politics as CT.)

--are often tomorrow's history.

Actually it is a waste of time to debate "conspiracy theories" as such. Because of its abuse, the term in itself no longer says anything useful. But we are stuck with it, because every time someone tries to delve into hidden history or the pervasive corruption of our society (whether in a reasonable fashion or otherwise), someone else is guaranteed to start crying, "conspiracy theory!"

---------------

PS

My nomination for the stupidest standard "debunker" arguments:

1. Well if THEY are so powerful why haven't THEY gotten you yet?
--As though I ever implied THEY were so powerful (usually, I am only implying THEY are so criminal, a different matter); or as though THEY need to worry about what I claim on some Internet board; or as though THEY never eliminated anyone inconvenient to them.

2. "Conspiracies too complex to maintain."
--Completely ignores social psychology. (Also ignores history. If it's happened before, it must be possible: You're telling me the Nazis came to power and from the very beginning planned to wage war on all Europe and exterminate the Jews, and most Germans didn't even begin to realize this until Germany started losing the war? How is that possible?!)

[JackRiddler]

82. kick

aw, don't tell me I wrote all that and won't get any mindless abuse for my efforts.

[thisday]

97. no way!

so many great posts on this thread,finally had to get my feet
wet.i may have a wooden head too,but your post and paine's and
(short term memory loss)just really nailed "it" for me.is this
formula correct-90%brain,5%heart,5%imagination=debunker.33%brain,
33%heart,33%imagination=truth seeker.

:D

[Silverhair]

99. I'd rather be 90% brain any day.

Thank you for the compliment. BTW - I am Mensa qualified, but haven't paid the dues in a long time so I'm not an active member.

[Junkdrawer]

89. What Jack said...

:thumbsup:

[Minstrel Boy]

94. Brilliant Jack

An outline for a book that desperately needs writing. Please proceed directly to Feral House.

:toast:

[nomatrix]

86. Hey Birdman that's Col. Prouty to you

"2) Their sources are usually of dubious veracity. Anyone who would
cite Michael Ruppert or Mark Lane or Fletcher Prouty as a source of anything would take the Weekly World News seriously."


Col. L. Fletcher Prouty (USAF)
http://www.prouty.org/
June 1941
Began military career with 4th Armored Division, Pine Camp, NY. At Communications Officer School, Ft. Knox, KY, on December 7, 1941. Transferred to Air Force 1942. Earned Pilot's wings November, 1942. Arrived British West Africa , February 1943 as pilot with Air Transport Command.

Assigned to V.I.P. flying, summer 1943. Personal pilot for Gen. Omar Bradley, Gen. J. C. H. Lee and Gen. C. R. Smith (Founder and President - American Airlines), among others. Landed U.S. Geological Survey Team in Saudi Arabia, Oct 1943, to confirm oil discoveries for Cairo Conference.

Assigned special duties at Cairo and Teheran Conferences, November-December 1943. Flew Chiang Kai Shek's Chinese delegation (T.V. Soong's delegates) to Teheran.

Chief Pilot (1,200 pilots), Cairo for Air Transport Command. Led special air mission into Soviet Union, and others into Turkey, 1944. Evacuated "Guns of Navaronne" British commandos from Turkey to Palestine. Assisted in capture of leader of German Gold smuggling ring (The actor, Bruce Cabot) in Turkey and Cairo. Led large flight of transport aircraft to Turkish-Syrian border to evacuate 750 American POW's and OSS-selected Ex-Nazi Intelligence experts from the Balkans, September 1944. The first "overt" Cold War mission.

1945
Transferred to SW Pacific, flew in New Guinea, Leyte and was on Okinawa at end of war. Landed near Tokyo at surrender with first three planes carrying Gen. MacArthur's bodyguard troops. Flew out with American POWs. Photographed Hiroshima, that date.

1946-49
Assigned by Army to Yale University to begin first USAF ROTC program. Taught "Aeronautics" and "Evolution of Warfare". Transferred to U.S. Air Force ROTC headquarters to write college text books. Wrote the college textbook on "Aeronautics" and another on "Rockets and Missiles".

1950-52
Transferred to Colorado Springs to establish Air Defense Command. There, Director, Personnel Planning for Command (77,000 men) and first to put personnel records on Computer. Attended Nuclear Weapons school, Sandia, N.M. Selected for Air Force Command and Staff College, Montgomery, Ala.

1952-54 Assigned to Korean War duties in Japan. Military Manager, Tokyo International Airport (Haneda) during Occupation. Commander, Military Air Transport Service, Heavy Transport Squadron responsible for military and diplomatic flights from Toyko to Saudi Arabia and back, in addition to daily flights to Korea, Honolulu and Pacific Islands. Founder, Toyko Toastmasters Club. Attended, JCS operated Armed Forces Staff College, Norfolk, 1955

1955-1964
Assigned to Headquarters, U.S. Air Force and directed to create an Air Force world-wide system for "Military Support of the Clandestine Operations of the CIA", as required by a new National Security Council Directive, 5412 of March, 1954. Wrote this policy in conjunction with Air Force General Counsel and CIA's General Counsel. Set up a TOP SECRET world wide support force and communications system. Was sent around the world by the Director, Central Intelligence, Allen W. Dulles, to meet the CIA Station Chiefs, 1956. Directed Air Force participation in countless CIA operations during this period. As a result of a CIA Commendation for this work, awarded the Legion of Merit by the Air Force, promoted to Colonel and assigned to the Office of the Secretary of Defense to carry out this same type of work for all military services. Assigned to the Office of Special Operations.

With the creation of the Defense Intelligence Agency by Secretary McNamara and the abolishment of the OSO, was transferred to the Office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to create a similar, world-wide office and was the Chief of Special Operations, with the Joint Staff all during 1962-1963.

Received orders to travel as the Military Escort officer for a group of VIPs who were being flown to the South Pole, Nov 10 - Nov 28, 1963, to activate a Nuclear Power plant for heat, light and sea water desalination at the U.S. Navy Base at McMurdo Sound, Antarctica.

Retired as Colonel, U.S. Air Force, 1964 and was awarded one of the first three Joint Chiefs of Staff Commendation Medals by General Maxwell Taylor, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff.

1964-1965
VP International Operations, General Aircraft Corporation... a company created by MIT and Harvard specialists that designed and built aircraft that were used by the CIA and Army Special Forces.

1965-1968
VP-Manager, Pentagon Branch, First National Bank, Arlington, VA, later VP-Marketing, 1965-1968. VP-Marketing, Madison National Bank, Washington, DC, 1968-1971.

Graduate, Graduate School of Banking, University of Wisconsin, 1966 - 1968.

Charter Member, American Bankers Association committee for Automation, Planning and Technology to develop plans to convert all U.S. banks to automation, including the Federal Reserve System.

President, Financial Marketing Council of Greater Washington, D.C.

Member, Advertising Club of Washington, D.C.

1971 AMTRAK, as Manager, created nationwide Government and Military Marketing organization. Senior Director, Public Affairs, corporate speechwriter for Presidents and members of the Board, 1972-1982. Retired.

Author, Public Speaker, radio and TV, 1950 to present. Book "The Secret Team", Prentice-Hall, 1973, and paperback by Ballantine, 1974.

Worked with all major USA TV networks, and with BBC-TV, CBC-TV, Japanese, Australian Broadcast Commission and others.

For McGraw-Hill Scientific Encyclopedia wrote "Railroad Engineering" section, and for its "Scientific Yearbook-1982" yearbook, wrote "Foreign Railroad Technology".

For Traffic Quarterly and Congressional Record, wrote "Transportation at the Crossroads", July 1981.

Numerous magazine articles from New Republic to Air Force, Gallery, Genesis, and Freedom magazines.

Recently - Consultant: Rail Transportation for Northrop Services Inc., Northrup Corp. and for Ohio Rail Transportation Authority. Assisted Chairman, Joint Economics Committee of the Congress to set up International Hearings and to write "Rail Passenger Services Act of 1981".

At request of Oliver Stone, worked as Creative Advisor (1990-1991) on production of his film "JFK" and was the original for "Man X" character played by Donald Sutherland.

New Book, "JFK, the CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy" published by Birch Lane Press, 1992.

[nomatrix]

87. dubious veracity?

And your source, or is this just your opinion?

[birdman]

101. Colonel Prouty - total nutcase

Said that :

The Vietnam War was planned in 1945.

A man in Dealy Plaza was shooting poison darts
at Kennedy from an umbrella.


Kennedy was murdered by the Federal Reserve.

The government killed all the people at Jonestown.


and my all-time favorite Proutyism:

FDR did not die a natural death - he was poisoned by
Winston Churchill.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty.htm

Poor FDR - he was done in by arsenic and old strawberries.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

102. And you're using McAdams to prove your "points"???

Sad. Really sad.

[TomNickell]

88. BUSH SHOOTS DOWN CHINOOK COPTER!!!! 14 DIE.

"Obvious, isn't it? WHO ELSE benefits from chaos in Iraq? WHO ELSE has the technology to shoot down big helicopters? WHO ELSE -KNEW- that that helicopter was going to be over that grove of trees?

OBVIOUSLY, Bush KNEW. BUSH DID IT!!!!!"

I'll bet that if I just changed my name and posted the above horsecrap, about half you Conspiracists would jump on the bandwagon.

DON'T EXPECT ANYONE TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

You don't take yourselves seriously.

[Junkdrawer]

91. Oh Tom, people here are hip to your strawman tactics n/t

Sigh

[Isome]

92. *quickly ringing the buzzer*

In response to that hyperbolic musing:

NOTE: #5 is often used disingenuously by people who probably know better, but who have some form of career or psychological investment in their role as clever "debunkers" (Gerald Posner, Ari Fleischer, "Birdman," etc.) Once the debunker has lumped you into the general category of "conspiracy theorists," it ceases to matter what you actually said. You will be associated with, or forced to defend, every CT ever invented.

You see, JackRiddler, I made use of your information-packed post. Kudos to you!

[hang a left]

93. Oh Mr. Nickell.......YoooHoooooooo

You haven't answered my question yet.

[Solomon]

98. Shaking head slowly while clucking. You guys kill me. Just because

somebody comes up with some cockamamie conspiracy theory, you take from that that all conspiracies are cockamamie. There's no such thing as a legitmate conspiracy at all.

But the same people have Nooooo problem whatsoever convicting people of "conspiracy" in the criminal courts at all. It's mind boggling. There are more people locked up uo conspiracy to do something, than the actual crime itself. It works real good in a criminal trial.

But here you got people saying so what the entire administration is from the oil industry, it's not about the oil. Somebody lied to you about who did 9-11 and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But that's not a conspiracy to you. You would rather believe that people who are paid a lot of money and attention to simply do their jobs, just happened to slip up that day, or be caught off guard, or surprised or whatever excuse you want to find about why there was no air defense over washington, d.c. an hour and a half after it was known that we were under attack. Why no standard operating procedure?

Yeah, I get it. Nobody knew what to do. Etc. etc. Shit. It just happened, right?