I am so dismayed....

[janekat]

with a lot of the people on this board. I guess a lot of you don't really care about race issues. First - all of the comments about Affirmative Action in the last few days. NOW some people here are actually condoning those who drive around with a Confederate flag on their cars. What a bunch of Hypocrites!

I'm white by the way - in case you're wondering.

I don't know if some of you are willing to prostitute yourselves and to give up everything you believe in just to win a race or if you just are simply a bunch of "pretend progressives."

This is not a comment about Dean. If some of you want to take it as that then go right ahead - I really don't care.... This is a comment about some of the people on this board.

The Confederate flag is racist. That flag is hateful. That flag is hurtful to a group of people who should be very important to all of us. That flag is saying "I hate blacks." It is not okay to fly this flag on your truck. I don't know if you all realize how hurtful this symbol is. Maybe most of you are from the North or something and don't any better.

A few black people have spoken out on this board and have actually been attacked for speaking out. This board is no better than the freeper board if this is not condemned.

"As a black man living in the South, I thought the Democrats were in my corner, little did I know they supported the symbol of hatred I have been fighting all my life, the Confederate flag, amazing people on this forum would defend Dean on this issue."

The following responses are just simply revolting:


"Another letter of disruption I see.
Why do you guys bother? This is just silliness."


"Without you, there will be more Kool Aid for the rest of them
yeah,yeah...I know that it was really Flavor Ade"


"You damn well should want to find some common ground with your neighbors. Just as much as you are different, you are alike. Dean doesn't support the confederate flag. He knows that most of the people who display the flag need a Democrat in office just as bad as you do. How do you ever expect to get rid of racism lingering in the south if neither side of the issue is willing to reach out to the other side and find some common ground? Bigotry stems from fear and ignorance. That fear and ignorance exists ONLY because of division. The division exists because of avoidance of dealing with each other. Dealing with each other is long overdue. Bush hasn't done any better for those with Confederate flags than he's done for blacks.

You shouldn't fall for the race baiting. It doesn't solve anything. And to make matters worse, the stuff you're reading from Kerry supporters are not even true. Kerry just thinks it's easier to try to turn black voters off to Dean than it is for him to get his own ass into the black community and EARN votes. It's your choice if you want to be Kerry's tool, but I think you are probably a hell of a lot wiser than to let yourself be played that way. Get the whole story before getting all bent out of shape. If you are still offended after hearing all the facts, then that's a different story. Just don't be a tool. It really pisses me off that Democrats are pulling this typically Republican race-baiting. This is the stuff that Republicans use to scare those "Confederates" from Democratic candidates. People here should know better than fall for it."

[dajabr]

1. I'm more dismayed...

That, for whatever reason, some don't "get" that Dean was not condoning the Confederate Flag.

Guess he should start providing quotes to reporters in crayon for some of you...

[noiretextatique]

2. no, he is just pandering to voters

who condone the confederate flag...there is a difference. it doesn't really bother me that much...just a reality of life in these united states.

[dajabr]

6. Sorry, I thought he was pandering to liberals...

who want to win the South for a change... :shrug:

[noiretextatique]

24. i didn't know "liberals" are that concerned about the flag

but, :wtf: do i know?! i thought clinton's 'sistah souljah' performance art was idiotic.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. It sounds to me more patronizing than pandering.

Something like "these people are too stupid to know what's good for them." Dean singled out the Confederate flag as a symbol of their self-limitation.

I don't think the rednecks will find it flattering.

[Eloriel]

19. I'm quite sure he's not pandering to anyone

And won't.

Pandering is telling a targeted group what they WANT to hear. Dean's comment doesn't fall in that category at all. He IS trying to draw them in -- the message is an economic one: "You've been voting Republican for decades now, what has it gotten you? Your interests are the same as African Americans." That's hardly pandering.

And, Dean is not a panderer. It's not his style, not in his make-up. I see quite a bit of claims to the contrary here at DU, but they're either misinformed and/or malicious lies.

For the record, I rather wish he hadn't used that term. But he did, and this wasn't the first time by a long shot. It certainly gets the attention of those he's trying to reach. I mean, there's no ambiguity about who he's talking about.

If you're interested, here's Jesse Jackson Jr's statement http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html

and Dean's statement in response to Gep and Kerry: http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002081.html

You may not be a Dean fan, but let's at least get it right about what we don't like about him.

Eloriel

[Guaranteed]

25. That's right.

Pandering? Dean? I don't THINK so.

[DrFunkenstein]

40. No, He Would Never Ever Pander

<>

<>

[Guaranteed]

22. Don't their votes count too?

Or do we HAVE to write them off as a loss?

[DemBones DemBones]

36. And your sig quote from FDR says it all, doesn't it?

We live in interesting times.

[SahaleArm]

Dean should never have mentioned the confederate flag.

He could have stopped at Pickups.

[auH2Olost]

23. There are more pickups than liberals in VT

Don't wake them unless you have a better deal.

[spooky3]

42. I agree with you.

I like Dean, and I also like Edwards, and I think both of them have been misinterpreted here, but it would be helpful if both of them would clarify their remarks.

[janekat]

5. This is NOT an issue about Dean OR politics...

I really don't give a crap about what Dean said right now. This is about the people on this board and other Democrats who obviously have no respect for blacks.

You all make me sick....

[dajabr]

9. It's ALL about politics...

And failing campaigns using race to divide their own Party.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

21. OK so when a bunch of people are...

1. Pointing out that something's been taken out of context and...
2. Pointing out that playing these kinds of games with peoples' minds is condescending.

You call that having "no respect for blacks."

That's a stretch.

That's even more of a stretch than saying someone who calls them "blacks" has no respect for African-Americans (because they're using an adjective that describes someone's skin color to define an entire person). But I won't do that. Because I know it's not true of you.

[FrenchieCat]

29. As a Black woman, I object

That's even more of a stretch than saying someone who calls them "blacks" has no respect for African-Americans (because they're using an adjective that describes someone's skin color to define an entire person). But I won't do that. Because I know it's not true of you.

I am BLACK.......and have no problem with the word.
If you are saying that if a White person calls me Black, they have not respect for me....then you are mistaken....and possibly speaking for yourself.

[LoZoccolo]

32. Oh geez (again).

That was my whole point. Notice I called it a "stretch" to say that and that because she said that didn't mean that she was disrespecting.

[Guaranteed]

26. Are you saying that we're gonna have to win the election

without any southern states???? Are you KIDDING me???

[w4rma]

35. Your logic: Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr."obviously [has] no respect for blacks"

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

Posted by Mathew Gross at 07:12 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=631124

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[Tinoire]

37. Let it go JaneKat

This is one of those areas where White people will never understand Black people, just as Gentiles will never understand Jews, chauvinists will never understand feminists, etc, etc...

Just let it go...

If people don't already understand how upsetting it is for Blacks to see, or hear any defense, anything less than condemnation, of that flag so reminiscent of the "good old days" that were only good for one race, they never will. I haven't seen the thread that got you so upset but don't any of this get to you.

I just quickly scanned Google News. This is not looking good for Dean. Seems the others, whose positions on the flag were already more democratically PC than his, are already using this:

"If I said I wanted to be the candidate for people that ride around with helmets and swastikas, I would be asked to leave," Sharpton said.


"Some of the greatest civil rights leaders, white and black, have come from the South," said Edwards. "To assume that southerners who drive trucks would embrace this symbol is offensive."

Clark said, "Every Democratic candidate for president needs to condemn the divisiveness the Confederate flag represents."

Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman's campaign weighed in as well. "Governor Dean ought to be more careful about what he says," said campaign director Craig Smith. "It is irresponsible and reckless to loosely talk about one of the most divisive, hurtful symbols in American history."


http://205.177.120.143/artman/publish/article_3401.shtml

It is additionally not good that he is not honoring the NAACP's economic boycott of South Carolina as long as the flag still flies Confederate Soldier Monument in front of the Statehouse.
Edwards, Kucinich and Sharpton (at least) said they would honor it- economically- have they?

The other very bad thing for Dean is his statment that the confederate flag hullaballoo is a local issue and not a state issue.
http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003_01_26_dean2004_archive.html Well this story's already off and running and this rash, thoughtless comment is not going to play very well.

------------------

COLUMBIA, S.C. - North Carolina Sen. John Edwards says he supports the NAACP's boycott of South Carolina to protest the display of the Confederate flag on Statehouse grounds. Edwards, who was in Columbia on Monday for a Martin Luther King Jr. event, is the third Democratic presidential candidate to oppose the banner. He said he stayed at people's homes instead of hotels to honor the civil rights group's economic sanctions.

The Confederate flag was removed from atop the Statehouse dome and legislative chambers in 2000 after the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People called for an economic boycott of the state. A similar flag was raised at a Confederate monument on the Statehouse grounds, so the boycott remains.

The organization wants the flag "removed from all positions of sovereignty," according to its resolution on the issue. The NAACP has called on entertainers, athletes, sports events organizers and businesses to avoid spending money in the state.

Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., said last week that the Confederate flag should come down because it is divisive. Rep. Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., said he doesn't think the flag should fly anywhere in the United States.

"I believe that those of us here, as Southerners, have a special responsibility to lead, not to follow, but to lead on issues of civil rights," Edwards told a crowd gathered at a park Monday.

<snip>

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/4993861.htm

[Tinoire]

38. dupe

[spooky3]

43. Janekat, I am sympathetic with what you are trying to do.

We have a long way to go before racism and other -isms are overcome. I'd like to believe that only a few posters here are so closed-minded or self-centered that they can't be reasoned with. I'm not sure if it does good to keep trying to present facts, evidence and opinion to these people, or if it just wears you down.

[Tatiana]

33. There's several ways you can take it.

Let's look at the actual quote:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor said in a telephone interview quoted in Saturday's Des Moines Register.

Now you can take it as Dean meaning that he wants people who exhibit actions he may personally not condone to understand he still a better choice for them as opposed to Bush. Or you can take it as Dean saying that he will represent the interests (including keeping the flag flying and doing away with affirmative action) of guys with Confederate flags.

I honestly don't know what he meant. I am uncomfortable with any candidate of mine wanting to represent racist people, and people who have Confederate flags (in my opinion) are racist or at the very least EXTREMELY insensitive. That being said, if those type of people help us get rid of Bush, at this point I wouldn't bitch too loudly about it.

[Maple]

3. I wrote

""Another letter of disruption I see.
Why do you guys bother? This is just silliness."

I wrote it because you haven't paid the slightest attention to what Dean actually said or why, and that Jesse Jackson supports him on this...you simply try to trash and disrupt things on here.

This is supposed to be a forum for discussion...not attacks.

[maggrwaggr]

4. how many votes do you want Bush to get?

I don't want him to get any.

Dean's point is that he's good for America as a whole, and if people actually hear his message even STOOPID PEOPLE (i.e. those with confederate flags on their trucks) will vote for him.

you're missing his point 100%.

I guess he shoulda called them STOOPID PEOPLE instead.

[janekat]

10. I don't care right now about what Dean said- I care about what WE'RE

saying.

[Pastiche423]

14. But if he did that

what would some people be dismayed about?

[billbuckhead]

17. Gore lost because black votes weren't counted.

It's clear many "Dems" don't care about that model. All we have to do is count the votes we got in the last election. No that is now undesirable. Many want a new model, many want to pander to the NRA and Confederate flag crowd. It's lunacy to think we'll get these votes, but it's all but certain many diehard Dems will pass on this opportunistic race baiter and NRA whore. If Dean is the candidate, the party deserves to die.

[FrenchieCat]

30. My Friend

The point Dean made was a stupid point made in a stupid way.
Ignorance is not bliss.

[FDRrocks]

7. I can safely say...

That I am not one of those you speak of. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Minorities and Euro-Caucasians do not start off on the same ground... as far as Affirmative Action goes.

And the Confederate flag lovers are bigots (I've never seen anyone but a white carry that flag) who romaticize the largest act of treason in this countries history.

[LoZoccolo]

11. Oh geez.

All those comments that you posted as "revolting" have nothing to do with condoning the Confederate flag and everything to do with taking a quote by Dean out of context. And you know it. You're not being disingenuous with the Dean quote, true, but now you're being disingenuous to people pointing out that the quote was taken out of context.

"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

I still haven't heard anyone give me an alternative to trying to reach out to the guys with the Confederate flags. Do we:

1. Let them continue being racist? Or...
2. Find some way to get rid of them?

#1 will let Bush win. #2 is "murder". I don't see either of these as a solution.

I'm sick of hearing about how these people "can't be reached" either. Oh hey that'll keep them from being bigoted, treating them like some kind of mutants that can't change their mind. Funny how they are all arrayed in one region of the US, despite being from different backgrounds, and people with the same backgrounds don't have the same mutant tendencies. Oh hey maybe it's BS.

As long as we're being dishonest, how about I ask you a question: why do you want the children of these Confederate flag guys to get sick and die without health insurance?

[wtmusic]

12. This issue is ridiculously overblown

the deficit, the deficit, the deficit. Can we talk about something that matters?

[Supply Side Jesus]

18. of course its overblown

They're all desperate to bring dean down. And if they have to resort to neo-con tactics (lie, distort, mislead)to bring him down, so be it.
This doesnt change a single mind on Dean.
let the babies cry, we should just ignore them and refuse to post on any of their threads.

[mitchum]

15. janekat, please check your mailbox

[drdigi420]

16. cant you just picture

the admins scouring that post for a reason to lock it

face it, any topic that gets heated is in danger of being censored to protect the few that are easily offended

[auH2Olost]

20. It is not okay to fly this flag on your truck

What country do you live in? Not America I presume.

You can fly or burn any damn flag you want to in America.

[auH2Olost]

27. condoning those who drive around with a Confederate flag

Much better to make it against the law. Why not?

[Tinoire]

28. I'm not even following this saga but your sentiment is appreciated

You can not be everything to everyone.

On edit: Just spoke to another Black DUer who filled me in briefly and is seething over this story. Your sentiment is doubly appreciated.

This is not good for Dean and the Black vote. Black people hear "confederate flag" and the only thing that evokes is racism, lynchings, plantations and the KKK. Right or wrong, perception counts and if Dean doesn't fix this quickly, this will cause problems for him with the Black vote.

[janekat]

34. I feel so bad for them. I was also upset about some of the attitudes

towards women on this board.

[Tinoire]

39. I didn't see it...

Look how insensitive we are to each other though... Look how insensitive I often am to you as a Clark supporter. It gets so you don't even notice it after a while...

Don't even worry about it... I am sure nobody meant any ill and that in the haste to explain the statement and the heat of apologetics certain insensitive comments were made... Just let them go because I'm sure no one meant to be insensitive to us or to offend- other than the occasional infiltrator trouble-makers if there were any in that thread. You make me afraid to even look at it especially since I saw my friend's comments here and talked to her on the phone.

Really just let it go... for your own peace of mind. The world is ugly enough without additional mis-understandings.


On edit: I just went and peeked at one thread. SHIT. Let me just assure you that in the thread I looked at, I didn't recognize many of the names. I am not sure where and when they racked up all those posts because I've never seen them before! Must be people who hang out in the Guns and Ammo forum which I never frequent!

Let it go anyway... There are 2 forums here notorious for attracting non-progressives. Not your typical DUers. Part of me though, can understand from having spoken to Southerners, that too many really don't understand the whole "fuss".

[Maddy McCall]

41. Yes, and with the true white southern progressives who have

joined their black neighbors to counter racism in REAL, TANGIBLE ways through grassroots efforts in their hometown communities.

[foreigncorrespondent]

31. I hear you JaneKat!

Unfortunately though, when it comes to minority issues there are people on these boards who will make remarks that hurt those minority groups.

I see it a lot concerning the gay community. I also see the racial remarks people will make from time to time, and quite frankly I find it disgusting.

The sad fact is that we are all human beings, just some people on these boards, and much larger in the real world, don't see all of us as being human's deserving of the same rights etc that they award themselves.

How on earth some of the people around here have managed to stay for so long is beyond me. Any form of hate should not be tollerated by any group, and especially a group that prides itself on tollerance!