A Question about Dean, Thurmond, Barbour and DU opinions

[Maddy McCall]

Several months ago, Strom Thurmond died, and a LOT of DUers vitually danced on his grave and celebrated his death. He was symbolic of the Old South to many DUers, even though in many ways he had come to see the error of his follies by the time of his death. However, as a bigot racist, his actions are indefensible.

Now, fast forward to today. Dean wants his fold to include people who display rebel flags on their pick-ups. My opinion is that Dean will never have mass appeal in the south (not to mention that while many southerners own pick ups, the overwhelming majority don't adorn them with rebel flags), but that is beside the point. What is relevant is that I think there is a certain amount of hypocrisy on the part of DUers who would promote Dean's proposal, while they condemned Thurmond, who was in every way representative of those rebel-flag waving southerners.

You said that Haley Barbour is a racist bigot for having his photo made with racist CofCC members, and then you glory in the inclusiveness of this party, that we can even welcome Confederate flag wavers to our party.

You scold those of us who have said Dean screwed up, and you tell us that the Democratic party is to be inclusive, that that is what separates us from the Republicans. How can you trash Thurmond with one breath and then say that we should be inclusive of the lowest (and rarest) element of the south?


In the past, many of you have said that the rebel flag stands for racism and slavery (I agree with you), but then many of you will be happy to welcome people who celebrate this flag into the Dean fold.

Honestly, if Dean had really wanted to appeal to southerners, he might have had a better chance if he wouldn't have condescended to us by typecasting us as the lowest element. That is offensive to me, as a southerner.


On edit, the Mississippi Flag has a confederate emblem which was placed there during racist Redemption. And Dixiecrats in the 1950s reveled in the confederate flag, as they fought Brown v. Board. Just for reference...

[dajabr]

1. Luke could have left Vader with the Emperor...(nt)

[madfloridian]

2. Huh?

I don't see that this warrants an answer. I have seen you on other threads, and you are apparently starting this to continue the issue which has been covered many times tonight.

[Maddy McCall]

4. Actually, I haven't seen the hypocrisy of this addressed by DUers...

Have you?

[Maddy McCall]

36. And Mad Floridian, a question. How many other threads on presidential

candidates have you EVER seen me participate in? I have never talked badly about any of the candidates--this is the FIRST TIME I have entered one of these discussions. And you have seen me on other threads on this topic tonight because DEAN INSULTED ME AND OTHER SOUTHERN PROGRESSIVES LIKE ME.

And other well-meaning DUers who aren't from the south are acting as if they and Dean will somehow save us from ourselves, as if racism only exists here.

That kind of condescension disgusts me. So if I am defensive, I have every reason to be.

[Syrinx]

3. Dean wasn't appealing to racists!

He was doing the same thing as Graham tried to do... appeal to the "NASCAR dads." Period. He thinks it's important to actually win this election, for the future of our country. He wasn't appealing to racists. He was appealing to "good ol' boys" and girls, who aren't racists. The Democrats need to be more competitive in the South. And that's what he's trying to do. The key difference: Strom Thurmond WAS a racist, Howard Dean IS NOT.

[Maddy McCall]

7. You are a southerner, right?

Aren't you a little put off by him assuming we all drive around in pickups adorned with rebel flags??

[Syrinx]

11. yes, I'm a Southerner

But I don't think that was his point at all. Maybe his choice of words could have been better, but he was trying to appeal to poor and lower-middle-class white Southerners that the Democrats need to win back. These are voters that the Republicans take for granted, and maybe the good guys can pick a few of them off. After all, they are voting against their own self-interests, and that's what he was trying to point out. I really don't believe Howard Dean is racist at all. And I'm getting sick of all the posts (not from you, jchild) tonight that are implying or outright stating that he is, because he wants poor white southerners to vote for him too.

[AP]

5. Why couldn't Dean have said that...

...he wants to be the person to convince Americans who fly confederate flags that the Republican party is lying to them to get them to vote against their best interests, and that they would find a true home with the Democratic party if they could set racism aside, etc.

In the past, that was the message he was trying to articulate.

Now, to say that he wants to be the candidate FOR them without asking them to change is quite bizarre.

Dean's an idiot, I have to say. That, or he's intentionally embarking on a strategy that's going to destroy the Democratic party by destroying the arc the party has be on which has been bending towards increasing social justice, and increasing understanding.

He says he's like Clinton, but he's destroying every bridge that Clinton built.

[Maddy McCall]

9. I agree with you...

there were a gazillion different ways he could have expressed the same message...unfortunately, he shot off his mouth without thinking-------again.


He would never have broad appeal in southern states anyway. On social issues, most southerners can't relate to him.

[AP]

13. I think that he might say this stuff intentionally.

There's a pattern here. It's hard to ignore.

He's never said ANYTHING smart about race. And he keeps repeating shit after he has been called on it.

[LoZoccolo]

15. You know what though?

If someone says something, and it seems real out of character for them, I think you can try to "get" what their saying, you know? I think you can try and make that effort to actually put something in context, especially when it's pretty well available. Hey I tell you what, here's the website:

http://www.deanforamerica.com

Here are four quotes that I want people to know about when they talk about this issue:

#1: "There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

#2: "There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

#3: "There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

#4: "There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

[AP]

16. Leaves open the question...should they change their attitudes about race?

Say they have the health insurance, should they walk with black people? If everything else is cool, is it still cool to embrace a racists symbol?

Know what I mean?

[Maddy McCall]

21. The minority who have those symbols on their vehicles won't EVER

change their sentiments on race. Again, I want to say they are the small minority of southerners, and health insurance in their minds has nothing to do with their hatred of blacks.

[LoZoccolo]

29. Nah.

First, I don't believe your entire premise. If this whole racist tendency is influenced so strongly by something like geography, then it's not as strong as you'd think. It's not like these people have some kind of /genetic predisposition/ to their particular prejudices. Cultural, maybe, but you can't say "won't EVER" with regards to something influenced by the culture someone adopts.

So given a chance to:

1. Do something that might work or...
2. Not do something that might work (with no added benefit for not trying).

You'd pick #2. I don't understand that.

And the worst you've said so far is that what Dean actually had in mind when he said that won't actually work. Regardless of whether or not that's correct, it's not quite the same as "Dean's pandering to southern racists."

[LoZoccolo]

26. No I don't know what you mean.

Then you'd have to find another way for them to realize it's silly to be racist. I don't know, that's a hypothetical that doesn't exist right now. Why not take this opportunity to partially eradicate the problem? (Why do you want them to continue to be racist if we don't take this opportunity to partially eradicate the problem?)

Every reformed hard-core racist probably has their own story to tell about why they stopped. Is it useful to go around telling them "yeah but if you didn't have that experience you'd still be racist, right?"

[AP]

27. Dean says health insurance and schools are the reasons racists should be..

...marching with blacks.

Why not say racism is the reason you aren't marching with blacks. Why not say, Republicans don't want to give you good schools and health insurance, but they can't tell you that or you wouldn't vote for them, so they turn you into racists instead and tell you the Democrats are the party of black people.

I thought that was where Dean was going to take this chat. But now that he's elaborating on it, and given other things he's said about racism, it sounds like he doesn't really have a big problem with the racism part. He's not going to talk so much about racism. But he'll talk about health care and schools.

He can now add beating around the bush to beating on Bush to his list of party tricks.

[LoZoccolo]

30. Oh, that's easy.

Because they won't listen to that. If they fly a Confederate flag they've heard it before and it hasn't convinced them. It's like if we had an argument that went:

"Dean supports the confederate flag."
"No he doesn't."
"Yes he does."
"No he doesn't."
"Yes he does."

You've heard the one argument and rejected it. If I were to give a more elaborate argument or approach it from a different angle, you might /come to the same conclusion/ a different way. OK so you wouldn't listen to the original, more simple argument. Whatever.

The idea that racism is meant to keep the working class from uniting to demand things to end common suffering is really not so obscure that his brief mention of it in that quote wouldn't evoke something meaningful.

[AP]

33. If Dean isn't trying to appeal to people's best instincts, then he isn't..

...for me.

[Eloriel]

12. He couldn't have said that because that's not what he was

freaking TALKING about. (And you call Dean an idiot?)

It was an ECONOMIC appeal, which ought to be very powerful in the South.

For about the 40th time tonight: Dean has said all along in his stump speeches that he would go to the South and talk about race and racism. You know what? He did that very thing and I was there, and I feel sure he does it elsewhere too. In Atlanta in August, he spoke very bluntly and movingly about race to a mostly white audience -- we were all with him already, but still, he did exactly what he said he was going to do.

THIS argument, the one which has garnered so much discussion and debate, was an economic one. Get it?

And I might point out to you that once you get people who might harbor some racism voting with you on some issues, you stand a better chance of getting them to line up with you on others (such as racism). First rule of salesmanship (and negotiating): get them saying "yes."

Eloriel

[Maddy McCall]

19. Obviously, you aren't a southerner, because if you were then you would

realize that the South has a LONG history of voting on candidates based on social issues, not economic ones, and that for Dean to propose that the element of the white south to which he was appealing could possibly walk side by side with black southerners is nothing more than a PIPE DREAM.


Are you aware that the racial divide of people in the same economic class extends back a century and a half? The progress that HAS been made in the south on racial issues happened because of southerers working with southerners across that divide, in SPITE of well-meaning northerers guidance.

[rudeboy666]

6. question

"... many of you have said that the rebel flag stands for racism and slavery (I agree with you), but then many of you will be happy to welcome people who celebrate this flag into the Dean fold."

Is it possible that some(not all) southern flag wavers attach a different meaning to the flag than the one that you assert?

Don't you think that these are the folks that Dean wants to welcome?

Is all Southern pride racist?

[Maddy McCall]

8. As far as the confederate flag's history in Mississipi...

YES, it has an extremely racist history.

[rudeboy666]

10. yes

but are ALL flag wavers racist?

Isn't it possible that for some of them it represents Southern pride?(minus the racism)

[Maddy McCall]

17. Maybe a few antebellum historians or civil war reenactors...

and those people can quite possibly defend their admiration of the symbol. However, these are not the majority.

Here...have a look see:

Ku Klux Klan




The uptown Klan, the Council of Conservative Citizens:



David Duke's followers can order flags here:

http://www.davidduke.net/store/commerce.cgi?page=flags.html

Why appeal to these people who Dean has NO CHANCE of winning their support, meanwhile alienating some of his most avid supporters. Just another stupid move on his part, IMO.

Edit: new photos...we crashed the Klan's server. LOL!

[beanball]

32. Pride

why not take pride in the american flag and scrap the stars and bars?to most blacks the confederate flag is the same as a red flag is to a bull.

[Maddy McCall]

38. You are right.

[Eloriel]

14. Somehow, jchild

You don't strike me as someone who is predisposed to like or support Dean anyway.

You are misconstruing what he said and what he meant, because there IS no hypocrisy. And I believe you know that. If my take on it isn't true, then I challenge you to actually read what he has said, and some of the follow-ups, and then get back to us (and show us you're not the hypocrite here):

hedda_foil (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-01-03 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=195077#195101
8. BTW, here's the entire quote of what Dean said (and always says)


Re Confederate flag:

Here is what he said - how can you disagree with that?

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)
========================

Jesse Jackson Jr's statement http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html

Dean's statement: http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002081.html

=======

And just for fun, here's a great response to Gep and Kerry:

tsipple (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-01-03 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=195077&mesg_id=195244&page=
31. Thank You, John Kerry and Richard Gephardt


Thank you once again for pointing out how desperate you both are. I've now totally forgotten what either of you have done to make the lives of ordinary Americans better.

I now know that John Kerry's and Richard Gephardt's Democratic Party is: (1) against certain stickers on certain four wheeled vehicles in certain states; (2) in favor of confiscating guns from law-abiding citizens, especially in rural areas with low crime, unless part of a photo op; (3) in favor of the Patriot Act which robs Americans of decades of civil liberties (since you both voted for it); (4) in favor of pre-emptive U.S. invasions of countries which do not pose a national security threat to the United States (since you both voted for that, too); (5) opposed to any votes from southerners, including ignorant ones who are trying to learn.

(And we voted for these bozos as our national Democratic leaders? No wonder our party is so messed up.)

[Maddy McCall]

22. It isn't about me liking or hating Dean...it is about the impracticallity

and the impetuous nature of what he said.

As I have said numerous times tonight, whether I like Dean or not is irrelevant. I have a Democratic Underground sticker on my car, and I don't own a single rebel flag, so his appeal missed me and hit the lowest southern element.

Sad that he would ignore the progressives here and appeal to the people to whom his appeal will definitely fall on deaf ears. The ripple effect across possible constituents is going to be detrimental to him, though.

[Guaranteed]

18. So what you're saying is that no Democratic candidate

could ever carry the South's voters without a guilty conscience.
How are we supposed to win an election with this perspective?

[Maddy McCall]

24. No, I am NOT saying that...

I will say that no Northerner who typecasts Southerners as rebel-flag waving pickup drivers will carry the south. A southern democrat might, but not Dean.

And, if you look back, we haven't won many elections when the Dem candidate did not have broad southern support. And how many Democrats from outside the south have had broad southern support and have been elected president?

[w4rma]

20. Jesse Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

Posted by Mathew Gross at 07:12 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=631124

[Devlzown]

23. I know plenty of people who display the Confed. flag,

and they aren't all racists. I wouldn't fly one because a lot of people do find it offensive and besides, it's just not my style. I think Dean would do well not to bring the flag up anymore because most people down here are sick to death of hearing about it, what with all the controversy surrounding it. He's bound to alienate a lot of black people over this issue and a lot of whites will see it as pandering. It's a lose/lose issue.

[Maddy McCall]

25. I don't know any who display the flag who aren't racist. but I agree with

everything else you said.

[tsipple]

28. The Dukes of Hazard Were Racist?

The CBS Television Network was racist? TNN was racist?

[Maddy McCall]

31. Are you serious?

REally, you're kidding, right?

How many black folks did you ever see on the Dukes anyway, and did Daisy (or Luke or Bo, for that matter) ever indulge in interracial dating?

But I know you are being sarcastic, right?

[AP]

34. Also, the law and government were bad.

No black characters at all on that show, if I remember correctly.

[tsipple]

35. I'm Wondering If You're Serious

So "The Dukes of Hazard" is racist?

[Maddy McCall]

37. The Dukes of Hazzard is fantasy...

A creation about the south every bit as misinformed as Dean's statement today.