What did Dean mean when talking about Southerners with Confederate flags?

[kentuck]

I see numerous threads about this subject and most seem to be intentionally distorting what he said and what he meant. When I heard him make the comments about appealing to those with Confederate flags on their pickups, etc, it was my impression and my interpretation that he was saying that these people are as American as everybody else in the sense that they want a good job, they want affordable healthcare, they want a good education for their children, they love their country, and they believe in the right to bear arms. Should we throw away all these votes simply for that one political position? Considering that it is mostly all talk about that issue and nothing really ever happens to change the status quo, it really is not too bright to throw away all those votes for nothing in return.

[virtualobserver]

1. well, we know one thing now, Gephardt doesn't want their votes...

"I absolutely disagree" with Dean, Gephardt said. He said he wants to be the candidate of those who display American flags, not Confederate flags.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50831-2003Nov1.html

[Dagaz]

2. Dean for the Confederacy

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dagaz]

8. Nope but nice try

Anyone against Dean's love for the Confederate flag must be a Bushie? This is a party fight and I don't want the flag in MY party. Maybe Dean can call Pat Buchanon and see if they can make a run.

[Aidoneus]

9. his love for the flag?

are you listening to yourself? did you even listen to what Dean said and understand what he meant for that matter?

[Maddy McCall]

10. Dean's Dream Team!

[Forkboy]

20. Yup,I'll take you seriously again

or not.

[Maddy McCall]

22. And I'll never take Dean seriously again...

boy, when you put an image to the statement, it really becomes evident how ludicrous dean's statement was.

I'm not a rebel-flag toting southerner, so Dean doesn't waste time to appeal to me. I am a progressive liberal in Mississippi who is deeply offended by what he said and how he said it. However, the guys in the photo above are the constituency he seeks. Such stupid remarks have consequences, don't they.

Don't care if anyone in the Dean sect ever listens to me again. Blind adoration is not an asset.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

33. ok, I'm curious

going from your memory and your reaction, what did Dean say and how did he say it? I've pointed out in these threads what I think he said, what about you.. Or will the cheap smears and indirect references be all you have to add?

[Maddy McCall]

34. I won't respond to a Dean supporter who calls my sentiments

"cheap smears." My understanding is inherent in my posts. If can so brilliantly infer what Dean implied, then you really should have no problem understanding what I am openly saying.

And if you need reference to what he said, just click on one of w4rma's myriad spams on the topic.

[Forkboy]

35. LMAO

you're offended by cheap smears yet post a pick of the KKK and call it "Dean's Dream Team"?

hypocritical much?

[Maddy McCall]

40. You need to slow down and read more thoroughly...

I said NADA about cheap smears; the other poster did.

[Forkboy]

43. " I won't respond to a Dean supporter who calls my sentiments cheap smears

jchild post #34

[Maddy McCall]

45. You are really fixated on me, aren't you!

Good, glad to know you are listening! Keep up with me, you might actually learn something--something called empathy for others.

And on edit, did it EVER occur to you that I was quoting HIM?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

48. Read post number 33.

Aidoneus (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-02-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #22

33. ok, I'm curious

Edited on Sun Nov-02-03 03:19 AM by Aidoneus
going from your memory and your reaction, what did Dean say and how did he say it? I've pointed out in these threads what I think he said, what about you.. Or will the cheap smears and indirect references be all you have to add?


**********
Boy, Fork, you are really a witty fellow aren't you! Glad to know I am monopolizing so much of your evening, and that you have to look to another Dean supporter's words to try to trip me up.

Are you just upset that the image above still stands? You really aren't that pretty when your fangs show.

[Aidoneus]

53. a picture of klansmen as "Dean's Dream Team"

is a fucking cheap and low smear by any interpretation.. the other remarks I've seen from you have been only indirect references to what Dean said:--or rather, indirect references to a fictionalized reproduction of what supporters of other candidates would've liked for him to have said, it seems.

Since we're splitting hairs, there's another inaccuracy from you above. While I may be defending him in this really ridiculous argument in general (having been shocked out of my mind that any of the candidates would dare to even overtly bring up economic class issues as he did), strictly speaking I'm not a "Dean supporter".. the answer to what I in fact am is a somewhat long story, one that I know you don't care about, but I thought I'd correct your mistake anyway.

And if I really wanted to split hairs, I'd point out another of your lies:--you claimed that the guys in the picture are who Dean is reaching out to, when it was people with their pickup trucks that he mentioned. I'm on to your game now!

[Maddy McCall]

57. Correction duly noted...

as is your opinion of the photo and of my posts. No middle ground for you and I so move along, put me on ignore, whatever.

And since you edited your post after my response, here is my response to your edit.

Have you ever BEEN to a Klan parade? I protested one about two years ago, and every one of the guys drove pickups plastered with rebel flags. The police had to jump one of the guys off just so his chickenshit self could evade a growing hostile SOUTHERN crowd--that was truly funny, but I guess that little tidbit was wasted on you.

How many rebel-flag toting klansmen have you protested?

[Forkboy]

55. I'm more upset

that someone's thinking could be so weak and shallow as to think it's a valid comparison.

[Maddy McCall]

59. Gee...go figure.

It's a very valid comparison, whether you like it or not.

By the way, are you always such a glutton for negative attention? LOL!

[Forkboy]

62. If pointing out your insipidness garners me "negative attention"

I think I can live with it.

And no,it's not even close to valid comparison,but I'm not suprised that you think it is.

[Aidoneus]

36. I know what he said

What I wondered was how specifically you were interpreting it, and in a bit more fleshed out than a one-liner or two with a cute pic to match. We seem to be interpreting it quite differently; I had expressed a half dozen times in 3-4 of these threads how I took it, I wondered how you were personally and specifically filtering it (aside from the lovely KKK pic).

Talking about Dean's KKK "Dream Team" is indeed a cheap smear by any stretch of the imagination.

[Maddy McCall]

39. Amazing the impact that symbols have on people...

If the Confederate battle flag has no relevence in your life, then you can explain Dean's statement away, and feel little offense.

But it is a powerful symbol to southerners, both white and black, and it evokes powerful responses. You can explain all you want what Dean MEANT. I know what that flag MEANS to me. There is hardly any middle ground on this issue.

[Aidoneus]

41. now you're just evading my question..

that being so, let me expand the premise of it. Do you believe wedge issues like this are used by ruling sections to divide more or less similar people (with only cosmetic differences in background) away from economic class issues (which I personally believe should trump practically everything in politics, including racial and nationalistic questions)? Do you think they should continue to be used as a wedge?

Do you think working class white southerners should continue to rally around their silly flag and vote for Republicans because of these divisive wedge issues, or do you think they should do what is theoretically/ostensibly better and vote on the basis of more important economic issues? (acting on the somewhat easy assumption, not always true but comparitvely speaking that Democrats handle such things better than Republicans, the latter almost exclusively pandering to the richest elites, with the former only partially/mostly so)

[Maddy McCall]

44. Wow, my opinion is of such value to you!

Great to know! REad my thirty other posts on this topic and maybe you can figure it out, huh?


ON edit in response to another of your numerous edits, do you edit your posts every time a person responds so that your edited posts vaguely resemble what you orignally posted? Guess you thought I had already gone to bed--I am headed there now, so edit away!

[Aidoneus]

47. oh fuck it..

time wasted on my part. :argh:

[Maddy McCall]

49. You are absolutely right.

I won't play your stupid little game with you and it is really pissing you off, eh?

[Aidoneus]

50. what game?

my insidious ploy to get ONE STRAIGHT COHERENT ANSWER? Is that my game that you have so cleverly uncovered? Very sneaky of me, I'll admit..

[Forkboy]

52. lol

you sneaky bastard you!

[Maddy McCall]

54. Do a search under my name...

you will get your coherent answers...They are all there if you do a search.

Oh, I see you aren't a donor to DU and can't do a search...well, then, just click through, oh, EVERY THREAD ON THIS TOPIC.

I don't jump through your hoops on command.

[Forkboy]

58. pssssst...not all donors want a star

just thought I'd point that out before you use it like a repug tactic again.

[Maddy McCall]

60. Search or click through--I don't care...my views are explicit on this

topic.

And, by the way, your attempts to bait me by indirectly insulting me are making me laugh. How old are you?

[Forkboy]

61. It must be some bait...you keep answering.

I didn't think it was all that indirectly.You are using right wing tactics,first by posting your smear pic,then by insinuating that Aidonieus isn't a worthy DUer because he hasn't donated.

Dont get mad at me because I have the temerity to point out your methods of debate.

How old are YOU?

[Aidoneus]

63. about that

to be fair, I used to be a donor, but I stopped after what I thought was really excessive deletions and a heavy handed atmosphere (not for myself, I never had more than a few posts deleted on occasion then or now and that in itself hasn't really bothered me). And that tendency of mine was very much reinforced when absynthe and a couple other of my particularly favourite DUers were tombstoned.

At first it was a silent protest, and over time that star disappeared (along with the Search privileges, as you say). That was months ago, and things have only gotten steadily worse on that front.. I just don't think my protest is being heard. If I wasn't so busy trying to ensare you in my hoop-jumping game here, I'd cry about it. :eyes:

Sorry, I thought we were having something of a discussion:--how truely inconsiderate of me to do something crazy like ASK THE VIEWS OF THE PERSON I WAS TALKING TO. That really was silly of me to carry on such a game--"expecting one straight answer", how dare I! It was just so that I had not seen your position put forward with any detail, or clarity for that matter (aside from, as I have already mentioned, what I find to be really cheap attacks like your klan photo above), and I was interested in a debate with one who was at least quite obviously from a different position than myself.

Instead, what I got was a reminder of why I hate election years, why "leaderism" is basically a sick joke to me, why I hate GD, and why I try to avoid these endless "my candidate is better than yours and I have the pathetic attack to prove it" threads that GD is always littered with, etc..

[Aidoneus]

3. it's about class issues

and that's why I was really shocked Dean brought it up (not the "flag" remark itself). The Republican party gets working people, in this case whites in the South, to vote completely against their interests through use of certain mechanisms, like race, and that this should be changed. That it is being so grossly blown out of proportion is more unfortunate than the idiotic means he chose to make this point.

[Maddy McCall]

11. And he could have said it without insulting 99% of southerners and

without indulging 1%--the lowest element is who he chose to appeal to. He will pay for it--he put his foot in his mouth...AGAIN.

[dkf]

15. He has been saying this for months

I find it amazing that it is only now that everyone is complaining.

The worst part of this is that all the people going on about how appalled they are completely miss the boat about the Republican party's southern strategy that has been decimating the Democratic party for years. Where is your outrage at what the Repubs have been doing?

If we do not counter this, we will sink into irrelevance.

All the hysterical people here would do better to figure out how to combat this cynical use of race instead of screaming "racist" at Gov. Dean.

[Maddy McCall]

27. I am not hysterical, and I work on the grassroots level on racial issues

in my state, Mississippi. My outrage is grounded in that very fact. And if Dean has been saying this for months, thank god we finally heard it and are discussing it. It's not good, whether he said it once or a hundred times.

[artr2]

25. Welcome to my ignore list

Edit :Removed Profanity

[Maddy McCall]

26. I could care less...ignore me...you have no relevence to me...

never even seen you post before. No loss for me. Truth hurts, eh.

[kentuck]

5. More distortions??

:shrug:

[fabius]

6. Most all display Old Glory too...

especially after 9-11. A lot these people display flags at the drop of a hat. Truly, we have a guy here with a Confederate and a Union flag on his pickup. Plus he lives in Oregon, a real Civil War battleground state.

Also Ducks and Beavers flags too. (is a Beavers flag sexist? :evilgrin: ?) Sorry in advance. I'm not running for anything.

[w4rma]

7. Rep. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

Posted by Mathew Gross at 07:12 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=631124

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[kentuck]

12. That is the quote that I heard Dean make...

And how it gets interpreted to the extent that some have interpreted it is puzzling...unless they are looking to score political points for their candidate??

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

[Aidoneus]

13. 'looking to score political points for their candidate'

perhaps that's it.. I can think of no other explanation for the incredible misinterpretation, apparently deliberate, and the resulting compounded errors that stem from it (suggesting Dean's "dream team" is a bunch of klansmen while he "loves" the Confederate flag).

[Maddy McCall]

14. Because he is typecasting southerners, and that pisses me off...

as much as it does when DUers do it!

[virtualobserver]

16. actually you are the one typecasting southerners.....

Dean didn't say that all southerners flew confederate flags or drove pickups. But by saying that Dean typecast southerners, you imply that his description was accurate for all southerners.

[Maddy McCall]

18. Absolutely wrong...I am offended that HE implied that.

So, what you are saying is that he is not typecasting and is instead reaching past progressive Southerners like me down to those whose symbols imply their adherence to racist ideology?

So, what you are saying is that to Dean the potential to have rebel-flag luvin racists is a higher priority than alienating African Americans and white progressives?

I don't imply; I said what I meant...If Dean didn't mean what he said, then he should either apologize or clarify.

[virtualobserver]

28. Dean wants to be the President of all of the people

and he wants to convince people who have been duped by the Republican race oriented political strategies that they are not voting in their own best interests.

We are all in this together.

[Maddy McCall]

31. But he is doing this at the expense of black voters that he just supposes

will vote for any Dem candidate that emerges after the primaries. That is wrong--to chance alienating black supporters who still have raw feelings about recent battles in many states over that very flag is just wrong.

[virtualobserver]

32. I can't speak for black Democratic voters.....

but I would think that they would be happy to see as many people as possible vote Democrat, and as few as possible vote for Bush.

[E_Zapata]

21. Okay, well let's expand this a bit.......

"The people who defile children by sexually abusing them? They should vote with us too! God knows they have contact with lots of children who need to be fed and insured as well. And they have children of their own too. Unity people!!"

This whole thing takes the CAKE in terms of the deanies totally glorifying some really SICK attitudes on the part of Dean. Takes the cake!

He's an AMERICAN FUCKING HERO now that he has given credence and validity to racists bastards? The same sons of the racist bastards who very nearly broke up this great union, btw!

That civil war -- wasn't a patriotic bowl of cherries irrespective of all the fun stories we all got to read in our elementary school books! OMFG.

It used to be in this country - a country founded on puritanical morals -- that unacceptable behavior and attitude was to be dealt with through SHUNNING. Thank god we had this FREE country and the bill of rights and all.......so that morally reprehensible behavior and attitudes were not met with political persecution. But political EDIFICATION? What the hell is in our water supply? We are a sick, sick, sick society!

[DemBones DemBones]

17. After all the South-bashing, anti-Confederate flag threads DU has

seen, it's a trip to see so many DUers now defending the South and the Confederate flag.

[Maddy McCall]

19. Dembones, I am a Southerner who has always defended the south...

but NEVER the confederate flag. There have been few South-bashing threads I have ignored.

What irony there is in seeing some of the South bashers now defending NOT ONLY the South, but the potential of the very people they have so vocally insulted to join their sect.

Amazing the hypocrisy.

[E_Zapata]

24. I am a southerner too --

I must have missed the southern bashing threads.

But the defense of Dean on this note -- OMFG. Now I know that DELUSION is the Dean glue. Total delusion and self-deception. It's the same fucking glue that holds the republican party together.

This just proves that our society is truly wounded and diseased. What will it take for our brains to return to optimal working levels again? And connect those brains to our moral compass.....if we even have a moral compass.

Distressing!

[Maddy McCall]

29. Yes, I agree...

This is a moral issue with huge implications for our party. And as southerners who have engaged in the battle against the racist banner appearing on our state flags, we are well acquainted with all these arguments, if we live in states that have been through these fights.

Too bad that dean didn't acquaint himself with this very issue before sticking his foot in his mouth. If he had seen the sadness and outrage that I witnessed in testimonies on the confederate flag by black Mississippians, he might have decided to stay away from his invitation to racists to join his campaign. Truly sad.

[DemExpat]

38. It boggles my mind......watching this from afar......

defenders of Confederate flag-flying racists among the most 'progressive' of DUers.....

:wtf:

DemEx

[Maddy McCall]

42. I usually watch candidate bashing threads from afar, but this issue

hit me to the core. I couldn't just shut up and click on like I usually do. This is the first of these debates in which I have ever engaged.

I am astonished by this too.

[E_Zapata]

51. It is astonishing.

it cuts right to the core of ALL the Dean bashing threads (alleged Dean bashing, I should add). The truth and our basic core principles are neither here nor there. It's all about the 'candidate' the Deaners love and cherish.

He could come out kicking a puppy to the curb, and it would be explained away as "well, the owner of that pup should have been more responsible and gotten that out of control pup into some dog training! If he hadn't of been there in the way of Dean's foot (and mouth!), there wouldn't even be a problem. The REAL point, folks, is that Dean was on that street on that specific day to give hope to the poor folks who live on that street. That's what Dean's about: HOPE! God love him. Oh, and screw you for yet another Dean bashing thread."

Note to a lot of Dean supporters: Do you see any of yourself within the staunch Bush lovers? You've got to see it before you friggin vote so you at least know what you are voting for when you vote for Dean!!

[Forkboy]

56. "Do you see any of yourself within the staunch Bush lovers? "

I see that mostly in Clark supporters,but Dean has his share.

[E_Zapata]

64. I guess I didn't phrase that exactly right.

I mean: Do Dean supporters think that maybe for a second that the reason they are met with a constant barrage of CRITICISM about their candidate's policies from sooooooo many people...and it's the same stuff over and over and over and over again that MAYBE we might be holding up a REAL MIRROR to your candidate? That MAYBE you might be a little self-deluded about Dean?

I used to be crazy for Dean. And it was like detox getting him out of my system. God, I LOVED everything about being part of the People Powered Howard Machinery!

But truth of the matter: He's merely a bit to the left of Bush. He's even to the right of Clinton, I am afraid.

I don't have the stamina to go through all of Dean's policy stances again. But policy plus his attitudes are INSANE! That little quip he made at the NAACP convention (or where ever it was) where he said to the black people that HE was the only candidate who spoke directly for their interests.

Well, with this confederate flag thing......I guess it's TRUE! He speaks to the black community like no other dem candidate I have ever seen. The thing is..this is NOT a black issue. This is an issue for our entire country. I don't want a country that will promote racism in any form.

Did Bush like come out with a statement asking all registered terr-a-rists to please vote for him, and Dean is just trying trump Georgie?

[Forkboy]

65. Ahhhh...thanks for the clarification

I'm not really crazy about Dean myself,but I think people are taking what he said totally wrong.

Do Dean supporters think that maybe for a second that the reason they are met with a constant barrage of CRITICISM about their candidate's policies from sooooooo many people...and it's the same stuff over and over and over and over again that MAYBE we might be holding up a REAL MIRROR to your candidate? That MAYBE you might be a little self-deluded about Dean?

Take Dean's name out and that fit many supporters of other candidates also,at least to me.

It could also mean that people are willing to smear whatever candidate isn't their chosen pick.Both are reasonable positions.

[JackSwift]

30. I suppose he was trying to say that

if Democrats are only going to blow smoke up each other's tailpipes, that we might as well was all our time being big babies on internet message boards. We have to have a lot of cross-over to unseat an incumbant.

[E_Zapata]

37. Oh, we need those maybe 5000 votes

of the most rabid skinheads who would actually show up to vote.

Do they vote?