Why do conservatives get upset when you call the US a democracy?

[Trek234]

Has anyone noticed how conservatives tend to get angry when you call the US a democracy?

I notice that on CSPAN shows when a (liberal) guest calls the US a democracy almost always a conservatives will call in and say "no it's not".

For example, when Dennis Kucinich was on as a guest a few weeks ago he made that mistake. A conservative called (who you could easily tell was masking a great deal of anger behind his voice so as not to get cut off). He went on for a good amount of time telling Dennis how the US was not a democracy, but a republic.

I notice this at free republic as well. If someone calls the US a democracy you can be sure at least one person will refute that.

Is this some hidden hate of democracy that they have? Why do they always take time to point this out? Seems to me that they are not only correcting the point about democracy (they are correct to an extent, it is not a direct democracy), but they in fact get angry about it. Rather odd.

I realize the US is a non-direct democratic republic, however it is the fact that they become so agitated and angry when I hear them on TV/Radio when they correct it.

[DemExpat]

1. They are simply deathly afraid of the entire population

(the teeming masses below them) having a vote and a say in how the country is to be run......

IMO

DemEx

[realFedUp]

2. They can't win in a democracy, only in a Republic

[tom_paine]

63. Not sure about that -- consider the Weimar Republic

Freepers won big back then and there!

[VermontDem2004]

3. The US is a republic

But I don't understand why they would be mad if you called the US a democracy.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

65. a few other republics

banana republic
Peoples Republic of China
Batavian Republic
Central African Republic
Dominican Republic
Khmer Republic
Checheno-Ingush Republic
Czech Republic
United Arab Republic
Weimar Republic
Tuva Republic

[Maple]

4. They regard democracy

as 'mob rule' whereas a republic is apparently governed only by laws.

Don't ask me...Freepers have been pedalling this line for years.

[DBoon]

18. No a republic

is governed by an elite of the "most qualified", which in the minds of conservatives means themselves and their wealthy buddies.

[Prodemsouth]

5. It is a Republic, but a constitutional republic and a representative

republic. They get mad because Republican is from the word Republic. Democrat from the word Democracy.

[Art_from_Ark]

40. I think you may have hit upon something there

At any rate, a democracy does NOT have to be a direct democracy. Merriam-Webster's definition includes the sense of representative government. So the US is supposed to be a TYPE of democracy.

And a republic is any independent country that doesn't have a monarchy. Iraq was a republic, fer Pete's sake! Iran is an "Islamic republic"! China is a "people's republic"!

What's more, the UK is not a republic. Neither is Japan. But they are "parliamentary democracies"! Yet, while people in those countries vote for members of Parliament/Diet, they do not vote for the prime ministers of their respective countries.

[Mel]

6. yes I've noticed

it's one of their tired old yappings check this out it's from Steve Kangas
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-democracy.htm

Myth: The U.S. is not a democracy.

Fact: The U.S. is a representative democracy in every branch of government.



Summary

The U.S. is a democracy -- just not a direct one. Every branch of our government -- executive, legislative, judicial, monetary -- ultimately derives its power from majority rule or approval. By making our democracy indirect instead of direct, the Founders prevented unrestrained mob rule, allowing a more reasonable pace of majority rule, and greater room for compromise.



Argument

Conservatives continually point out that America is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. This is a quibble over definitions, because a constitutional republic is a type of democracy. Democracy comes in two forms: direct and republican. In a direct democracy, the people vote directly on proposed laws, and government (to the extent that it exists) serves only to put their laws into action. By contrast, a republic is a representative democracy, where laws are passed not by the people, but their elected representatives. Adding the term "constitutional" to the word "republic" is frivolous, since all nations have constitutions.

Why, then, do conservatives insist on this distinction? There are two reasons, both of them trivial. One is to embarrass those who make casual use of the term "democracy." Another is that conservatives are so hostile to democracy that they seek to deny its very name.

But a democracy we are. No matter which branch of government you look into, you'll find the fingerprints of democracy everywhere:

</snip>

[weirdmo]

7. war of words

We are not a democracy in the purest sense. We vote on issue and initiatives but we also vote for leaders who do the voting for us. There are problems with a pure democracy in that what the majority of the populations wants isn't always good. Imagine for example after 9/11 the majority of the population voted to itern all muslims. That in effect would be an act of democracy.

[karlschneider]

13. Correct, weirdmo. And welcome to DU.

(I can't help but wonder if the "mo" is part of your name or where you're from) :D

No reply is necessary, however...

[weirdmo]

16. no problem

The "mo" is for Missouri. The "weird" part...well I don't think I need to explain that.

[newyawker99]

17. Hi weirdmo!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[benddem]

8. Actually it generally isn't conservatives

who get angry about this...cause they think they are the majority and majority rules. We are a republic. And I am a bleeding heart liberal.:shrug:

[La_Serpiente]

9. they just want to show off

how much they know instead of talking about the real issues.

[Skittles]

10. HELLO

MAJORITY RULE SCARES THE SHIT out of them

[weirdmo]

14. It doesn't scare you?

Majority rule sounds nice on paper but it can be just as dangerous as a monarchy. See my previous response for a reason why.

[Darranar]

20. A constitutional direct democracy makes sense to me...

with protections on civil liberties and civil rights.

[maha]

43. Democracies are not necessarily majoritarian

The Constitution puts limits on "majority rule" in the Bill of Rights. But we're still a democracy (and a republic).

Whereabouts in Old Mo you from? I grew up in the Lead Belt.

[Skittles]

51. how exactly did we get this dipshit "president" of ours???

THAT was not democracy in action. *THAT* IS SCARY.

[Darranar]

11. The US isn't a democracy...

and it probably won't ever be.

A democracy is a government of the people. The US government is not a government of the people.

There are two factors that make this true:

a. Corporate lobbyists have a lot more power than the people. The rich can excersise tremendous power over our govenrment, while the poor can't.

b. If Bush had actually legitimately won Florida - which he didn't - he would have LOST the popular vote, therefore making him the president of a minority of the people, not the people.

The US is a capitalist representative republic.

[maha]

47. I'd say it's a broken democracy.

You make a good argument that the U.S. is not functioning as a democracy, but by the same argument it's not a "representative republic" either. Your argument is that it's an oligarchy of monied interests, not a republic.

[Brian Sweat]

59. That is you opinion and it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand

[Kamika]

12. i think it has to do with the name

Democrat comes from "democracy" and the freepers are crazy.. they would probably spank their kids if they ever said "democrat"

[maha]

48. I agree.

I think that's the real reason the word "democracy" makes them crazy.

[ComerPerro]

15. Because Bush didn't win through Democracy

He actually didn't win at all.

But remember:

Republicans reject the will of the people. Look at what happened in Florida in 2000, look at the many voting irregularities in 2000 and 2002, look at the re-redistricting in Texas, the recall in California, and now attempted recalls in at least two other states.

They do whatever they can to override the will of the people, and they justify it by saying "Its NOT a democracy".

[tom_paine]

62. What two other states is recall being considered?

Got links?

[weirdmo]

19. electoral college

I probably miss-spelled that subject heading but oh well....

The election process for president is in itself un-democratic. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If the majority of the population was all that was required to win the presidency, the large cities would essentially own the office. Would this be a good thing?

[Classical_Liberal]

23. Yes, I think people should take precidence over acreage

It only helps wealthy rural people when this is not the case. It doesn't help most rural people at all. Having said that we need a bill of rights to curb the persecution of minorities. They shouldn't be allowed to run things though. They have often been wrong, and I think the are wrong more often then the majority. That is why we are at war.

[Zero Gravitas]

60. Of course it would

why should someone's vote count less depending on where they live? One persone, one (equal value) vote.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. Rush Limbaugh tells his ditto heads that democracy and republics

are polar opposites. If Limbagh said that because a robin has feathers it can't possibly have a red breast the dittoheads would believe it. Many of their leaders hate democracy and the rank and file are ignorant people who believe the lies they are told.

[Piperay]

22. The story they used to give out was that

the United States was once referred to as a 'REPUBLIC' but that it was the Democrats who changed the words and started calling it a DEMOCRAZY in order to sucker new citizens into registering and voting in the DEMOCRATIC party. :wtf: I'm not making it up, that is what they said long long ago when I was a repuke and so were my parents (who at the time involved themselves in working in repuke politics, THANKFULLY none of us are repukes any longer). These repuklicans would go ballistic if you referred to the country as a Democrazy, you had to call it a republic. :puke:

[Bucky]

24. Technical differences: democracy & republic

In fact, the US is both a democracy and a republic. Quibbles to the contrary aside, there's not that much of a difference. Please remind your conservative friends that Bush frequently refers to democracy and bringing democracy to Iraq (ha!) and never says anything about bringing republicanism to Iraq.

When Jim Jeffords changed sides in 2001 and gave the Dems control of the Senate for 18 months, Trent Lott accused him of "undermining democracy." So all conservatives don't spazz at the word "democracy."

Technically, we are a democratic republic. It's also accurate to say we're a representative (as opposed to "pure") democracy. The actual definition of a republic is any country that isn't a monarchy or theocracy. The Soviet Union was a republic, Iraq under Saddam was a republic, Nazi Germany was a republic. Some nice countries also were republics.

Teh conservatives' problem with saying that we are also a democracy is two fold. First, if you say we're a democracy, then Gore winning the popular vote is a much bigger deal.

Second, the country was not a democracy when the Founders authored the Constitution in 1789. Washington & Madison were quite worried that we would become a democracy because to them, democracy meant mob rule. The meaning of "democracy" changed over the years. Between lowering property rights qualifications in the 1820s (Jacksonian democracy) and the changes in how both US senators and presidential electors are chosen (Progressivism), the US evolved into a democracy.

But there's still all those annoying quotations from the Fathers of the Country about how we should not become a democracy as they understood the term lying around.

It's a silly debate for the most part. People who quibble over the term democracy are generally out to lunch.

[kentuck]

27. Interesting comment...

"The Soviet Union was a republic, Iraq under Saddam was a republic, Nazi Germany was a republic. Some nice countries also were republics."

I have never heard of "democracies" going bad like these "republics"..?? Not that I would want to compare our "republic" to Iraq or the Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany, but it is something to think about when we start comparing republics vs democracies...

[Trek234]

31. I trust you are aware

Before Hitler came to power Germany WAS a democracy. Odd you've never heard of democracy going bad...

[9215]

36. Dead on

I've always said it is just a semantic squabble to avoid more important issues. The repugs really have a knack for keeping this kind of esoterica going on endlessly.

[many a good man]

25. I've Never Heard This Before

How crazy! How wrong! I've always thought a republic was a form of democracy.

What do they say when confronted? How do they explain this? Baffling.

[Classical_Liberal]

26. Most people are so shocked by the assertion they are

mute, so sadly they are rarely confronted. However when they are it is always amusing. This is always a big argument on usenet.

[Darranar]

28. It's the other way around...

a democracy is a form of republic.

A republic is a government without a monarch; hence, the Third Reich was a republic.

[many a good man]

30. You're right!

Thanks for the clarification.

So are we a democratic republic or a republican democracy?

[Darranar]

33. We're neither, IMO...

see my post above in reply to the original message.

No nation in the world is a true democracy.

Among those called democracies (though are truly representative republics) the USA is among the least democratic because of the prevaling "winner-take-all" philosphy behind its "democracy."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. Neither

Democracy AND Republic --> USA, France, Italy, Germany, almost all of Latin America, South Africa...

Democracy AND (NOT Republic) --> Netherlands, UK, Sweden, Spain, Japan, Canada, Australia...

Republic AND (NOT Democracy) --> China, Iran, North Korea...

(NOT Republic) AND (NOT Democracy) --> Saudi Arabia... uh... UAE?

[Zero Gravitas]

61. (NOT Republic) AND (NOT Democracy)

don't forget Iraq!

[maha]

67. Republics often are democracies.

The words "republic" and "democracy" are often used interchangeably, and in fact their definitions overlap quite a bit. Note that "republic" comes from Latin and "democracy" comes from Greek.

Once upon a time a "republic" was any country that was not a monarchy. That's why so many of the original Communist countries had "republic" in their names, because in many cases they took the place of a monarch. Hence, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. But look carefully at the dictionary definition now:

republic

SYLLABICATION: re·pub·lic

NOUN: 1a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. b. A nation that has such a political order. 2a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. b. A nation that has such a political order. 3. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France. 4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation. 5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

ETYMOLOGY: French république, from Old French, from Latin rspblica : rs, thing; see r- in Appendix I + pblica, feminine of pblicus, of the people; see public.

Note the boldface words above. Now look at "democracy," noting the boldface part:

SYLLABICATION: de·moc·ra·cy

NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. 2. A political or social unit that has such a government. 3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power. 4. Majority rule. 5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
ETYMOLOGY: French démocratie, from Late Latin dmocratia, from Greek dmokrati : dmos, people; see d- in Appendix I + -krati, -cracy

Any political system that invests ultimate authority with the people (as opposed to a monarch or dictator or something else) is a democracy. If the people in the democracy are governed by elected representatives, it's a representative or indirect democracy, and it's also a republic. (In a "pure" or "direct" democracy everybody just shows up and governs. Kind of messy.)

[JackSwift]

29. Because conservatives oppose democracy

Despite their non-sense about Iraq now becoming a democracy. These people do not know what they are talking about, and are showing their hatred of democracy when they say these things. Our nation is founded on democratic principles, not religious ones, and that has conservatives frightened.

[RuB]

32. Its how they justify the idiot Bushie being pResident.

You probably won't find one Republican talking about it pre 2000.

[zanana]

41. I think you're right, RuB.

I first heard Republicans refuting the claim that we're a democracy during the contested 2000 presidential election. They were defending the Electoral College...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Any non-monarchy

can legitimately be called a republic, so that France is a republic, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not. Some very unsavory regimes have called themselves republics, such as the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Republic of El Salvador.

The reason that the Repiggies are spreading "the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy" is that it can be used to shoot down any protestations that such and such a policy is "undemocratic."

[9215]

35. Because democracy sounds too much like democrat. n/t

[robertarctor]

37. Democracy? Republic?

Jeez. I thought we were a dictatorship now.

Heil to the Chimp and all that.

[WoodrowFan]

38. Because they think it makes them sound smart.

They think it makes them sound smart and educated.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

39. "democracy" looks like Democrat &"republic" looks like their evil party

keeping it simple for the simplitons.....in a nutshell!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Folks Are Just Playing Word Games

We are a democratic republic.....

Our leaders are democratically elected at least in theory...

[Q]

45. Jefferson's ideas on 'majority' rules...

"Unless the mass retains sufficient control over those entrusted with the powers of their government, these will be perverted to their own oppression, and to the perpetuation of wealth and power individuals and their families selected for the trust." --Thomas Jefferson to M. van der Kemp, 1812. ME 13:136

"The first principle of republicanism is that the lex majoris partis is the fundamental law of every society of individuals of equal rights; to consider the will of the society enounced by the majority of a single vote as sacred as if unanimous is the first of all lessons in importance, yet the last which is thoroughly learnt. This law once disregarded, no other remains but that of force, which ends necessarily in military despotism." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1817. ME 15:127

"Civil government being the sole object of forming societies, its administration must be conducted by common consent." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.VIII, 1782. ME 2:120

"The voice of the majority decides. For the lex majoris partis is the law of all councils, elections, etc., where not otherwise expressly provided." --Thomas Jefferson: Parliamentary Manual, 1800. ME 2:420

"Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends, the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them." --Thomas Jefferson to Annapolis Citizens, 1809. ME 16:337

[salin]

46. The meme was birthed to deflect criticism of W winning electrl not popular

Vote.

Think about it. NEver heard this particular phrase until after November 2000. That is intentional. Has to do with the split of electoral vote and the popular vote with the president prize going to the electoral rather than popular vote winner.

Bet that the whole thing would be flipped around IF Gore won the electoral vote, but Bush won the general vote and Gore became president (which is what many GOPers thought would be the outcome.)

[MrPrax]

49. Could be that since the word 'democracy' doesn't appear

in the Constitution...it ain't constitutional.

Democracy as a concept wasn't excepted anywhere in the west until the late 19th century. Prior to that it was a 'radicalism', and an 'extreme' critique to the established 'Divine' hierarchy which nobody really questioned.
The reasoning shifted from 'equality' in merchantilism (necessary for free markets and consumption) to 'equality' in the political markets...enfranchisement was championed by laizzes-faire liberals as a way to rest power away from the ancien regimes via the ballot box.

Not particularly pursued for noble ends...

[Az]

50. A Democratic Republic

A pure democracy is essentially mob rule. That is whatever the majority says goes. A Republic establishes rules that all must live by and cannot be overturned by a simple majority vote. This is why the Moral Majority (if they actually were in the majority) cannot simply override our rights by voting us into noncitizenship. They cannot vote us away.

[Scott Lee]

52. Because they are scared to death of the common citizen

I hate to throw them a bone but techincally we aren't a democracy (we'e a constitutional republic), but to the heart of the matter, they have a knee jerk revulsion to anything that seeks to address the needs of the common citizenry.

You can deflate this favorite tactic of theirs by simply referring to the USA system as "democratic", which it is. Then when they try to spit and sputter at that, ask them which democratic devices in our political system they'd like to remove - start with the vote?

[Brian Sweat]

53. This is simple to combat

Instead of saying that the United States is a democracy, just say that the United States is a representative democracy.

Their argument is based on the fallacy of equivocation. When people say that the US is a democracy, they are using the modern definition of democracy. The Republicans are using an antiquated definition for democracy when they say that it is not.

Also, ask them why they want to bring democracy to Iraq. Get a few quotes from GOP leaders using the word democracy in relation to Iraq. Ask them why FDR wanted to make the US the "Great Arsenal of Democracy." Ask them why we fought great wars to make the world safe for democracy.

[spindoctor]

54. Democracy vs Republic?

According to Webster:

democracy
Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but is indirectly exercised through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed; a constitutional representative government; a republic

Now that is about speaking as strictly as I can speak, but strictly speaking....

A republic is used to label a form of state governance, the opposite of a monarchy.
A democracy is used to label a form of state governance election, the opposite of a dictatorship.

If anybody claims that the US is not a democracy, then that person agrees with many of us here that we are currently under dictatorship.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!

[VTMechEngr]

55. WE ARE A DEMOCRACY

We are a representitive democracy. You want to get technical, the soviet union was a republic!

[Brian Sweat]

57. Actually, it was a union of republics.

[Scott Lee]

66. Only in two cases

California, and Texas. They were supposed to be republics by themselves. The rest were just states, and the original idea was a republic made up of free states.

[donotpassgo]

56. Piss freepers off by calling them Communists.

China is a "Republic", So was East Germany, Even Russia considered itself a union of Republics. That'll shut down their dumbass sematics game.

[Brian Sweat]

58. Cuba is a republic too.

[Hammie]

64. The US is a federal republic

The states are representative democracies. In fashioning the original contract between the states (the constitution) the founders specifically strove to make it less democratic. A democratic national goverment was, and still is, threatening to the less populous states. In order to form a volutary federation of independent states, a semi-democratic compromise was reached.

As originally envisioned, the primary constituancy of the federal government was the states. The primary government for individuals was their state goverment. In the 20th century the relationship between citizens and the federal goverment changed dramatically. Federal law began to usurp state authority by banning possesion of drugs and firearms, taxing individual incomes, and through various wealth distribution schemes.

Republicans supposedly favor small federal government, and are thus apt to see too much democracy in the current national government.

Democrats naturally favor democtratic institutions, and are apt to find that the current national government is not democratic enough.

The difference between the two viewpoints is nicely demonstrated by the aftermath of the last presidential election. Democrats often claim that Al Gore should be president because he won a majority of the votes. That he is not is seen as an indictment of the electoral college system. To a Republican, the entire purpose of the electoral colleged is to prevent the president from being elected by a simple majority, and thereby force him to be responsive to the needs of less populated states, as well as the more populated ones.

The federal goverment is certainly representative (all the legislators are directly elected), but even at that, it fails the one man one vote test, since small states have proportionally more representation than large ones.