I think the helicopter shoot-down today may be the beginning of the end.

[liberalhistorian]

I simply could not believe it when I was watching the coverage of the helicopter shoot-down on CNN today, with FIFTEEN killed and TWENTY ONE wounded. Then there was the footage of the Iraqis dancing at news of the attack.

I thought of the speakers from the Military Families Against the War group at the D.C. rally last week, remembering the pain and anger in their voices as they told of their loved ones currently in Iraq and how they were just being used for political gain. I thought of when I took my son to the Vietnam Memorial after the rally and march, and how overwhelming and moving it was even after having seen it several times already. I thought of the families I saw at the memorial, some placing flowers and/or letters at the base of the panels on which their loved ones names were etched. I thought of the group of four or five veterans who were posing by one panel, next to pictures of four of their comrades that didn't make it home with them, and the looks of pain and fatigue on their faces more than thirty years later. I thought of my uncle, a Marine who'd served two tours of duty in Vietnam when I was a very young child, and how grateful I was that he'd made it home and that I'd grown up being able to know him and that he'd been able to have two great children, now grown, that I've enjoyed having as cousins. I thought of the total senselessness of the war, and how deaf, dumb, and blind the leaders were at that time. Not only not listening to the people, but not even listening to those in the know who said there was no point ant that they needed to pull out, and therefore continuing to cause the totally needless deaths of young men who had their entire futures ahead of them and who should have been able to have come home to raise families and enjoy productive lives.

And then I thought of Shrub and the Bushistas and their total lack of regard for the lives of those in the military and the fact that there was no reason for invading Iraq in the first place except to gratify their egos and satisfy their own political and imperialistic ambitions. I thought of the fact that he's cut the VA budget and blocked increases in military pay and benefits, and charged wounded soldiers for their own fucking FOOD for God's sake! I thought of the fact that he has not attended ONE SINGLE FUCKING MILITARY FUNERAL since he started this whole mess, indeed, he seems not to give a rat's ass about it at all. I thought of how he hasn't spent one single day in combat, and how he kept his chickenhawk ass safe and totally out of danger during Vietnam, not even bothering to show up for his final year in the Texas Air National Guard and how he got away with it because of daddy's name and money, and how poor shmucks like my uncle didn't have that luxury and that choice, and that many died because of it.

And I thought that it really is time to GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE NOW! NOW! NOW! Before one more soldier suffers or dies the way that FIFTEEN did today, as well as the TWENTY ONE who were wounded, some severly. Before we have to start building yet another memorial, this one in the shape of an I with all the names of Shrub's victims on it. And I also thought that maybe many more Americans will, after what happened today, begin to understand and realize that, and not just want out but start to turn against Shrub and the Bushistas. Maybe, just maybe folks, the tide is finally beginning to really turn.

[fishnfla]

1. Sorry but we are no where near the end

we are not even past the beginning. sorry

[maggrwaggr]

2. I think it proves there's no way to "win" this thing

what are we supposed to do, re-invade them? Ghettoize them?

Time to come up with an exit plan and get the f**k out.

Anyone else notice the oil pipeline got blown up again today?

It's a lose-lose proposition at this point.

Time to check the egos and get real.

[liberalhistorian]

9. That's the problem, Shrub has

NO exit strategy whatsoever, he's such an arrogant, ignorant idiot he never thought one was necessary. It is, indeed, sadly a lose-lose proposition.

[mikehiggins]

20. No Exit Strategy? Of course not.

They never intended to leave.

Iraq was supposed to be a forward fire base so US forces could put pressure on the other Gulf nations to mind their p's & q's or get some of what Iraq got.

The moron-in-chief can't be blamed for not having a brain in his head, but the people around him substituted wishes and hopes for facts.

We may have the biggest army in the world but peace was assured over the last 50 years by the balancing act between the US and the Soviet bloc. Now that we have no effective opposition we're relearning an old lesson, one that the Afghani's taught the Soviets, and the IRA taught the British and the Viet Cong taught us.

You can't kill enough of them to stop a resistance.

There's an old irish tune that covers it all very well. It says something along the lines of "my sons have sons and their sons have sons"

Once a popular resistance gets going, it is almost impossible to stop.

[bluestateguy]

3. But, but

The increased attacks must mean that we are winning in Iraq. The president said so. They hate us for our freedoms!

[liberalhistorian]

10. LOL!

Unfortunately, that's the way the idiot is trying to spin things. I'm surprised he and the rest of the gang aren't permanently dizzy with all the spinning they're doing.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

13. Stay the course!

9-11! Terra! Traitors!

Sorry, just practicing my Freeper talking points should I decide to visit there later on as an interloper.

I've asked this a number of times before, but I bears repeating: How much longer will the Bush administration really be able to convincingly spin the Iraq situation in these "positive" terms? I mean, at some point aren't even the staunchest Bush supporters going to have to admit that this thing is a fucking mess?

[NicoleM]

29. We're getting close.

I can't remember where I heard this over the weekend, but some normally-favorable-to-Bush pundit said that his assertion that the more they attack us, the better we're doing "strains credulity."

[Cocoa]

4. it could be the beginning of the war

there's no way to know, it hasn't been decided yet what is going to happen, but it could turn out that the history books will call what we've seen until now a prelude to the actual war.

[liberalhistorian]

8. I don't think so, because I frankly don't

think Americans are going to put up with much more of this.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. poignant essay

it is time to get Bush out--he is an insane religiously deluded, ignorant ass who is not concerned about this country's welfare.

March in the streets--demand impeachment--make a big ruckas--it is time to bring him to his knees in the public square-he has ruled over us as a dictator without a mandate too long now--before he goes further, we need to get him out--if he is not voted out then we need to march with pitchforks and shovels in hand and storm the Crawford Bastille.= to oust him and his fat "let them eat cake" frump. He is evil--he has sent our children into harm's way for his own purposes while he lied to us about the threats of Saddam. They have died for nothing. He has lied--he is despicable--he is not worthy of the loss of our children's lives--how many will die for nothing but his own greed?

[liberalhistorian]

7. Exactly!

Very well put. I can't count the number of signs at the march with a variation of "he lied, they died", or "Bush lied, how many more will die", etc., etc., many carried by vets themselves. I thought the number of Vietnam vets at the march was very telling.

[NewJeffCT]

12. unfortunately

Old vets are probably looked down upon by a lot of right wingers as hippy losers. Probably why Bush wants to cut all their benefits.

[Kanary]

6. From your lips...

...to the ears of the goddess, liberalhistorian.

We have to hope...

Kanary

[Don_G]

11. It Won't

No single issue will tell the current administration what to do until it affects us all as a "Nation."

When the GI's return home to explain the "Oil" war to their friends, family and co-workers (if they're not in an unemployment line somewhere) then, and only then, will the truth start to leak out.

Until then, we need a central theme to unite our country and declare war against Dimbo.

I don't have the imagination to do it...but maybe Mr Pitt and everyone else here has a few ideas?

[LittleApple81]

15. But do you think that today's volunteer soldier has

the analytical skills to recognize what Bush got the U.S. into in Iraq?
Once you are dragged into this, if you don't have enough education to understand the historical and political underpinnings of the situation, your "patriotism" could blind you to what really is happening. Besides, the army creates the "brotherhood" mentality that might prevent them to admit they were duped and so many friends and colleagues died--were murdered--for the BFEE. This creates a horrible dissonance.

[Malva Zebrina]

18. you wanna know something?

I am ready to take to the streets all by myself-down in front of the
Capitol building-everyday--carrying a sign that says--impeach Bush--Pitt cannot help us except to be a catalyst for the cause. it is up to each of us to express our outrage at the deaths of these young people, who have died for nothing! It is time to take to the streets and get this insane idiot out of our house and all of his insane neo cons with him.

How many of our children's lives are we willing to sacrifice to this stupid man, his toadies, and his greedy purposes? Too many have gone down so far--no more!

[OldSoldier]

26. You may have hit on something...

When I read the story on CNN's website yesterday, I was under the impression that the soldiers in those helis were heading for the R&R camp Halliburton's set up in theater. Today, the local socialist newspaper explained that the troops on those helis were going to two-week stateside leaves.

Consider this: a MIHOP scenario. If those soldiers were to reach the United States, they would explain to their parents, friends, etc., just what a goat screw this whole operation is. Those people would tell their parents and friends what kind of a mess we're in...and it would go from there. The word of a liberal, or even an old veteran, has nowhere near the impact of the word of someone who's up to his ass in the current shit.

Solution: make sure the troops never leave the theater, unless they're in a bag. This is why all of the troops' rotation dates keep getting extended.

But those pesky leaves pose a threat too. If a guy goes on leave, he can cause as much damage to Halliburton's war, or perhaps more damage, than a guy who rotates back "permanently." (Plus, there's the ever-present threat of a guy going DUBYA, like thirty troops did in the first rotation.) So the leaves must be stopped.

That Chinook was shot down by two SA-7 missiles. I wonder if your typical "insurgent" company (hint: the "insurgents" have formed a command; it is my opinion that the "insurgents" were what was once known as the Iraqi Army) knows a Chinook will fly long enough to land with one engine shot off--and they're separated enough that one missile won't take off both engines. (on edit: if you didn't know one missile won't take down a Chinook, you might just fire one and figure you're done. You certainly wouldn't fire an extra missile into the same helicopter just for insurance; those things are expensive.) I have seen a CH-47 land safely with one running engine and two of the three rotor blades off the rear hub. If you shoot off both engines, the helicopter will go down. Also consider: the CH-47 that was shot down was one of a pair. Were I an insurgent air defense element, I'd have put one missile into each heli, then engaged the troops on the ground with small arms fire when the helicopters landed.

SA-7 missiles are not hard to come by, so the BFEE could have easily scored some. They could have also used Stingers--as tightly controlled as the news is over there, you'd never know, and if you consider that the US supplied Stingers to the mujahideen in Afghanistan, there are Stingers in enemy hands. The BFEE shot down the heli so they could declare home leave "too dangerous" and cancel it. Watch 'em, it's coming.

[TomNickell]

14. Could be....

The steady number of casualties doesn't reach the awareness of much of the public.

Something like this grabs the attention.

The public supported this (to the extent it did) only because it was supposed to be over in a few weeks.

[liberalhistorian]

17. That's exactly my point, that

this will really shock people into waking the hell up.

[DancingBear]

16. Just one more piece of the puzzle

With each disaster, credibilty gets strained. With each spin maven sent out to cover it up, questions arise. With each lie uncovered, minds begin to change.

It is slow process, but I see encouraging signs. America has been asleep for a long while, and I am beginning to believe the lady is starting to awaken. We all must remember that it is a cumlative effort, and not get put off when the next * lie is not the final one. They all add up.

[kentuck]

19. Godd forbid that it happen again....

It would look lik a pattern...

[kath]

21. Re the Vietnam Memorial

Molly Ivins' SO died in VietNam. She wrote a killer essay about visiting the Memorial, which appears in one of her first two books. Absoulutely heartbreaking.

I visited the Memorial 2 1/2 years ago, after the VoterMarch. very powerful experience. It brought tears to my eyes, even though I didn't know anyone who died over there.

[Eloriel]

23. If I ever go to Washington, D.C.

It's the only thing I want to see.


BTW, here's my own rant/diatribe on the horror of today, the memories of Vietnam it brought back:
I've got the Vietnam Deja Vu Blues
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#638218

Eloriel

[newyawker99]

25. Hi kath!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[leftofthedial]

22. doesn't change a thing--this is 60's redux

we have to take our struggle to the streets. Until buildings burn stateside over this and blood is shed in the streets of America, the neocons and the Murkin sheep will look at days like today as further reason to prolong the war--not end it.

Just like Viet Nam. We are a L-O-N-G way from the end. Remember, it was not until years AFTER the end of Viet Nam that most Americans came to believe that we were wrong to wage that war.

[bobbieinok]

30. And today many think WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN VN

and we should have 'unleashed' the military.

The driving force of much of the domestic political wars since the 60s is the determination of the right to 'win' the VN war politically.

This is behind much of the hatred of Clinton and the impeachment. He was against the war...'discredit' him and you discredit all the anti-war protestors.....'the democrats who hate America.'

Remember Reagan's campaigns....'It's morning again in America.' 'America can be proud again.'

And remember the propaganda around Gulf War I. We 'won' at home and in the field and thus 'wiped out' the domestic 'shame' of anti-americanism.

And this is why the screams of anti-americanism, unpatriotism, etc., now. Because after Gulf War I everybody was supposed to have learned the 'lesson' and forever 'stand proud for america'. And it's driving them crazy that so many aren't 'playing the game' the way they're supposed to.

[dusty64]

24. It ought to be, but

halliburton and the rest of chimp's donors haven't made nearly enough blood money yet.

[dusty64]

27. Kick!

:kick:

[catmandu57]

28. It's a shame that it takes something like this

to get people to notice that people are dying, not only American's, but Iraqis and citizens of the world, whose governments have bitten on the neoconvicts bait.

It's a shame that it takes something of this magnatude, 16 dead soldiers at this time, to get people to look up. When this has been happening nearly every damn day since 19 march.

When we illegaly invaded a sovereign nation, desposed their leaders, bad as they were, for what? every reason that was put forth has been disproven. The only reason we went to war was so jr. chimp* could prove to poppy chimp that he had a bigger one.

That and a sick twisted vision of empire and world domination. We aren't supposed to dominate the world, Hell, we're America we're supposed to be a gathering point for the entire world, the freakin melting pot.

It's up to each and everyone of us, each doing what they can to open the eyes of our neighbors to just what in the hell is going on, consequences be damned.

[RainDog]

31. This horrific stupidity will continue

..until Bush's handlers decide it is more advantageous to declare victory and leave.

Unless we get rid of the whole crew before then.

None of what is happening is a surprise to me or so many others who, unlike the Bush thugs who refused to listen, heeded the warnings of the generals and ambassadors and CIA officers who warned that what is now happening was the near-certain scenario.

For those who say we can't leave now, I can only say that the assumption that the Bush League will get this right is the height of optimism and such a belief requires that you ignore everything they have done since they took office in 2000.

Rather, the administration should be rebuked by the legislature, and the legislature should reclaim its power to declare war and to oversee any spending for war...the Republican-controlled legislature, in other words, is as much at fault as the executive branch in allowing this whole mess to unfold, and as much at fault for refusing to admit the truth to Americans, and themselves, about the wrongness of this action.

it would seem to me to go to war based upon lies, as Bush has done, would be an offense, like treason, which is punishable by the severest penalties of our law.

This is what America needs to do. will it happen? No, I don't think it will. The media is complicit, Congress is complicit, and therefore too many Americans do not know the truth.

However, our troops cannot be expected to win this guerilla war, especially not with the thugs now exercising power and insuring unlimited profits for their corporate cronies.

So another soldier will die for Halliburton's stockholders.

Another soldier will die because our leaders failed to make Bush accountable, and refuse to make him accountable.

Another soldier will die because our media fails to tell the truth and tell the extremist right in this country to deal with it if they don't like reality.

More soldiers will die so that the pride of George W. Bush can be maintained.

No soldier's death is worth this worthless cause.

Iraq will, most likely, devolve into civil war no matter how long we stay. The shia majority has already stated they will cooperate, as long as it is convenient, until they can install an Islamic state. (They guy Paul Wolfowitz was praising as an example for democracy in Iraq is on record with this statement...read Juan Cole).

How many civilians did Saddam kill? How many civilians did our bombs kill? The low estimate is 4000. The high one is at least 10, 000.

How many of our soldiers and their cilivians will die before America admits this administration did a horrible thing? Will Americans ever demand these liars be held accountable?

How much of the 87 billion will go to Halliburton, while we continue to have the worst job creation situation since Hoover? I suppose bomb fodder is Bush's idea of job creation. I wonder how many American mothers and fathers would choose this fate for their children for years to come?

Not me.