90% chance my reserve unit will be mobilized very soon

[IrateCitizen]

For those of you who don't know, I am a junior officer in the Army Reserve. My unit is a construction engineer unit. I found out this weekend that the rumors that have been floating around are far from unsubstantiated. There is now about a 90% chance that our unit will be mobilized in the very near future (perhaps within the month).

Last night, I came home and told my wife of less than four months this unsettling truth. She sat in stunned silence for several minutes, and then the tears began to fall from both of our eyes as we just held each other close. Although this is something that we both have known could happen for quite some time, it's still something that we told ourselves, "It's not going to happen."

I also have had a pending application for discharge as a conscientious objector for almost the past year. I told my wife some time ago, "Either my application is going to be approved, and I will be discharged; or it will be denied and I will end up in Iraq within the next year." Sadly, it seems that my premonitions were incredibly accurate.

The worst part of all of this situation lies not in thinking about my own circumstances, should I end up over in Iraq. I will be removed from the life I have back here, and in an environment in which survival will be my sole concern. But when I think about my wife coming home, night after night, to an empty house, eating dinner alone, falling asleep and waking to an empty bed -- it makes me feel like my heart is being ripped out. She is the one who will still look around and see the pictures, the walls, the effects of our home every day -- but realize that she is alone, without me there.

While the majority of people I know in the Army do not look forward to this, at the very least most of them believe in what they are being called upon to do. Not so for me. Not only do I not believe in what I am doing as a member of the US armed forces -- I do not even feel pride anymore when I put on my uniform, I feel only inner conflict. I feel the conflict of a person who believes spiritually in the supreme power of love and still must participate in an organization that is, in reality, a tool of dealing out death and destruction.

Let me be clear. I do not support our occupation of Iraq. I do not harbor any illusions about being sent there out of a spirit of true benevolence, nor of the mission of "spreading democracy". I realize fully that I would be ordered to go there as an agent of an imperial occupation.

I have examined all legal channels at my disposal to secure my discharge from an organization whose mission I no longer believe in. There is no guarantee that this effort will succeed. If it does not, I will fulfill my appointed duty as a commissioned officer and deploy with my unit. Like I said, I do not do this in the spirit of supporting why I would be deploying. I would do it because I would rather see myself appointed with the responsibility of ensuring that those under my command come back alive, than someone who might not care for them as much. I would do it because I would rather see myself, as someone conscious of holding on to my humanity, in that position, than someone who would more readily embrace the worse aspects of the human psyche.

My heart is heavy today. But throughout all of this, I don't want you to think of me. I would rather ask that you commit yourselves to the broader goal of ending this pattern of imperial conquest and military occupation. I know now that, regardless of the outcome, it must become my calling as well.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. I'm truly sorry this had to happen to you.

Please keep us informed whenever you can of what you experience. Whatever and whenever.

[IrateCitizen]

2. I'm not sorry about me -- I'm sorry about it happening to my wife (n/t)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. You're a good man Chris

as good as they come. I wish you both the best.

[IrateCitizen]

12. Thanks

But I'm not as good as many. I just happen to find myself in a very unfortunate situation and am trying to find the way to make the best of it. Not just for myself, but for everyone I can come in contact with.

Like Gandalf tells Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring, "We do not get to choose the time we have -- it is up to us to make the most of the time we are given." That's all I'm trying to do.

[Jazzgirl]

136. I really hate to hear this.

My brother found out he will probably get deployed sometime before Christmas. He is a nurse and a Captain in the Air Force Reserves. I found out yesterday. It makes me so sad. I almost started a thread because I felt so flustered and overwhelmed but decided against it. Chris, I empathize with you. My brother will be leaving a beautiful daughter as well and she is an only child. He's my only sibling and I hate to see him in harms way. I hate this mis-administration for causing an unnecessary situation where so many people are dying needlessly. Stupid! I hope you are able to extract yourself from this situation. Good luck and I'll pray for you as I do for all.

Jazzgirl

[Military Brat]

3. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

I hope you do not go to Iraq. If you do go to Iraq, I hope you are spared the horror of witnessing the atrocities, or participating in them by being forced to do so. And I wish for you, and your comrades, to return home safely and build a new and better life. You are a true American, a genuine patriot.

[Spazito]

4. I will hope with all my heart that your application for discharge as a..

conscientious objector comes through before deployment. If that does not happen, my prayers go with you and all those who will be and are in Iraq.

[ewagner]

I understand

This will be a truly difficult time for both you and your wife and you have my deepest sympathies as well as my support.

There can be only one saving virtue in your deployment. As an officer, you have the opportunity to command your troops in such a way that will assure their survival and eventual return to their families. You are their safety net. You can help protect them.

I hope you are not deployed but if you are, my thoughts and best wishes are with you.

[NicoleM]

5. If there is anything we can do

for you or your wife, please let us know.

[onebigbadwulf]

8. well

we can bombard his superior officer with "DO NOT LET HIM GO" mail.

[DUreader]

9. He has not requested that and expressed a sense of duty/concern

for his charges.

If I were serving I would prefer to have a man like this as my commander

[IrateCitizen]

10. My superior officer has nothing to do with my situation...

My application is resolved at a Dept. of the Army level. My battalion commander is in pretty much the same situation as I am at this point, minus the pending CO application.

[RapidCreek]

116. I wonder if drowning your Representatives in emails might have

some effect?

RC

[DUreader]

7. I wont be able to help thinking of you depite your request

Sad news.

Contacts on DU have made it all more personal.

[sistersofmercy]

11. Truly sorry about your situation. I feel for your wife it's got to be

hard to deal with and will be even rougher in your absense if you are deployed. I know someone whose husband got a two week notice for deployment in the medical reserves.

[NoKingGeorge]

18. For your wife and for you. You may be in a position to make a difference

In someone's life. If you have an opportunity to save someone, who will return to their love one's or if you make a connection of peace with another culture, you and your family can take some solace in having made a contribution to humanity.We will continue the struggle here. See ya home soon.

[gratuitous]

13. Hang in there, IC

You're in a lot of thoughts and prayers, and surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Although I hope you're not sent to Iraq, I have every confidence that you will discharge your duty honorably and well, and will provide a wonderful example to your fellow troops.

Best wishes to you and the new wife.

[salin]

14. So sorry to read this IC

I know this has been pending and a great concern for a long time. My heart goes out to you and your wife. Let us know if there is any way that we can support her... and you.

[Tatiana]

15. My heart goes out to you and your wife.

One of my friends got deployed to Kuwait, en route to Tikrit and the more I think of this Pretender sending our women and men over there to die for their oil war.... I alternate between extreme rage and uncontrollable misery.

It's not fair. These bastards in the Bush administration should be impeached.

[flamingyouth]

16. I'm holding good thoughts for you

I'm so sorry for you and for your family. I sincerely hope you don't have to go.

:grouphug:

[Beetwasher]

17. Shit

I'm sorry to hear that man.

PeteNYC, before he moved to LA was trying to get us all together to hang. Even though he's moved, I'd still be honored to buy you a beer (or ten) before you go and to shoot the shit.

[IrateCitizen]

63. That may not only be a welcome proposal, it may be necessary...

As time grows shorter, I think I will almost need to go on a short bender before I would leave....

I'll be in touch with you as to when. I work in Midtown, so we can't be that far apart.

[peacebuzzard]

72. The nightmare continues....

If you guys do meet up in NYC, I too would like to buy you "one for the road". I am sorry about your reserve transfer hell. It is for guys like you that I have placed a "Support our Troops" sign on my fence at home in east TN. I work in NYC and will be there alot in Nov. so keep me posted, Citizen.

[calimary]

19. Wrong on one count. We WILL be thinking of you!!!!! And more besides.

This is horrible. JUST HORRIBLE. MY heart is heavy today for you and your bride. GOD I hate these chickenhawks!!!

I will again post that TOLL FREE CAPITOL HILL SWITCHBOARD NUMBER:

1 (800) 839 - 5276

You can call in and be transfered to ANYBODY'S office in the House and/or Senate.

It is URGENT, VITAL, CRITICAL that we all use this FREE RESOURCE, especially those of us who can't afford many long-distance calls, to alert our reps, Dems and rethugs alike, that this madness HAS TO STOP! You'd think the helicopter shoot-down this weekend would be something of a wake-up call. Or perhaps now that the newest poll shows bush at 51% DISAPPROVAL for the first time, maybe they'll finally start getting the message that this war is a TOTAL abomination.

My prayers are with you, Irate. It makes me MORE than irate thinking about this. Your place is HERE at home, by your wife's side, where you won't have to fight a war that could NOT be honestly justified.

[RichM]

20. I'm truly saddened to hear this, & very much hope your CO application

will be approved. If this doesn't happen, though, I'm certain your unusual inner resources will be a source of strength to you, & to those close to you, in this excruciating situation. Part of what made Howard Zinn the person he eventually became was the time he spent seeing & participating in actions no human should have to participate in, in the military.

[IrateCitizen]

21. Along with Kurt Vonnegut, Joseph Heller and Phil Berrigan

It's important to remember that Berrigan based his pacifism on his experiences as an infantry lieutenant during WWII.

[Iverson]

22. I want you to know.

"But throughout all of this, I don't want you to think of me. I would rather ask that you commit yourselves to the broader goal of ending this pattern of imperial conquest and military occupation."

As another married person, I have enough energy to do both. My best wishes go to you and your wife.

[cindyw]

23. I hate to reply this way but I think that you need to consider how

to handle this situation if you do go. I imagine that there are many men and women there who think that we should not be there. I have read may stories of soldiers who went to war with much the same attitude as you, that they were there not to save the world, but to return the men in their command home safely. It is an honorable mission indeed.

My concern is how can you and your wife live with having no choice but to go. In my mind I separate the actions and intentions of those who sent our troops there and those who are carrying out the mission. They did not choose it and those who did, as we know, sent them there with the worst of intentions. This being the case you may need to come right in your heart with what your mission will be there. If you are in a construction unit, I imagine you will be there maybe building roads, maybe a hospital or a school. How many children will learn something they never would have because of your actions. Also, we as a country are counting on you to show the Iraqi's that we people are not the kind of people Bush would lead them to think we are.

I am not naive and I do not accept it when Bush uses the good things being done there as an excuse for having started this war, but the men and women serving there now in my opinion are the real heros in this situation because they have the opportunity to conduct themselves honorably in this difficult situation.

From my heart and through my life experience, I tell you that many times we are unable to choose our exact destiny and sometimes have to make decision from a bad group of choices. All that we can do is go forward knowing that we are honorable, well intentioned people, have a little faith in God (if you believe that stuff) and do the best we can. IMHO your wife will do better if she thinks that you have accepted what life has thrown to you. Damn this President for playing God and inflicting this pain on so many Americans.

Please do not take what I am saying as anyway in support of Bush or as condescending. I for one will be proud to have a man such as you representing this country. Be right in your heart and know that we here at home are working in this difficult situation to get you home. Good luck in you efforts to avoid having to in the first place. Your wife is a very blessed woman to have a man like you.

[IrateCitizen]

29. Yours was a very deep, thought-provoking post, cindyw...

And it definitely hits on how I am trying to look at things right now.

If it's not going to be me in charge of some of these people, it might be someone who has no problem about the idea of "killing ragheads" and the like -- and believe me, I know some of them in the military.

It really hits on an article I read in the most recent issue of UU World, the magazine published by the Unitarian Universalist Association. In it, a minister is describing the conversation that she had with a special forces vet from Vietnam, on why he chose to continue to participate in an activity that he found so abhorrent. His response was incredible, and something that everyone needs to read.

Against Innocence by Rosemary Bray McNatt

Jake talked a lot about the friends who died in his arms in lots of different countries; about the insurgent citizens of other countries who were murdered by their country’s dictators when America’s foreign policy shifted yet again. He talked about returning from Vietnam, living with the psychic pain of having done so much killing—a pain that grew so great he could not function—and being told that there was nothing the VA could do for him, since he was not physically injured and there was no indication that what was bothering him was war-related.

He told me of riding the subway from the Bronx from one end of the line to the other, crying all night, until he had calmed himself and recalled the rules that governed his life on the street. He was on his own, and there was no help that wouldn’t come from himself. Tempted to abandon military life, he chose instead to reenlist, to continue his controversial work. When I asked Jake why he would do such a thing after all he said to me, when I asked him how he could continue to be complicit in a way of life that seemed as abhorrent to him as it felt to me, his answer surprised me.

“I don’t want them to go through what I went through,” he said.

“I live with things nobody should have to live with. Nobody with any sense who’s ever fought a war wants to do it again. When you hear the President declare a war, it means that I’ve failed, all the people like me have failed.

“And it means that you failed. You all are the civilians; you had the chance to demand that the government make a certain kind of decision. But when you fail, then they call on us.

“Those other guys in my unit may have had all kinds of reasons to join the army, but they don’t get to decide when to fight. I know enough so that if some of them have to be called up, I can get a lot of them back home again. I do it so I can get those boys back home.”

That is hardly a perfect answer, but this is hardly a perfect life. I tried to imagine the impurity of Jake’s life, the messiness of his choices, and attempted to compare it to our choices as citizens and religious people. We refuse to be corrupted by failed foreign policy. We refuse to be taken in by selfish and self-aggrandizing politicians in our chosen parties, by economic expediency, by bad faith. So we stay out of the fray. We march and write and send e-mail, but we rarely organize strategically. Some of us even refuse to vote “because they’re all alike,” whoever “they” are. We take every available opportunity to make the best the enemy of the good, and as a result we often end up with the mediocre—or worse.

I encourage you to read the rest of the article as well, accessible by the link I provided above at the article's title.

NOTE TO MODS: I know that this is more than (4) paragraphs, but I ask you to leave the excerpt in its entirety just due to the importance of reading it whole. Thank you.

[cindyw]

35. Thank you for pointing me to this article.

I plan to share it with my friends at the Kerry site. I'm sure you are uncomfortable with his IW vote. Many people are. I will probably also share it with the Clark people.

I know by your words that you will be okay, no matter what happens. I pray that God will will bless your wife with the serenity of acceptance and the strength of patience.

[Mairead]

24. I hope your CO discharge comes through quickly

Though perhaps you are the best sort of person to have in charge of people in an ugly situation?

[mrgorth]

25. stupid question

Why can't you get the CO deferment? Is it that hard? Also, and I hope this doesn't sound bad, at least you don't have kids. If you don't have kids you have no idea how much worse it would be. Trust me on that.

[IrateCitizen]

30. CO discharges are very difficult to get

I've been going through the process for over a year now. I had to meet with my company commander, an Army psychologist (to ensure I was of sound mind), an Army Chaplain, and the appointed Investigating Officer.

The formal process began almost a year ago, and I have still not found out a determination. Most applications that have been submitted have been refused, as well.

You're right about kids. I am glad I don't have any right now to leave behind in this situation.

[CWebster]

26. How heartwrenching it must be for you.

And you are not alone.

There are families all over the US worried and apprehensive.


Does anyone know anything about that young women, with her small children, who managed to bypass the security check and ram her car into the building where Bush was doing a fundraiser? Apparently Bush was only 50 feet from where her car hit. The only mention I caught about this was a commentary about security, but I wonder about her, who she was and what drove her, they said she was screaming when they pulled her out of the car. I wondered if she was some slain soldiers widow...

[Walt Starr]

27. Hey IrateCitizen, you inspired me

Your dillema inspired me because your unit is just one in a long line of what will be the death nail of the All Volunteer military.

I truly despise the wicked men in the white house.

[Armstead]

28. Many thoughts are with you, your wife and all soldiers

Despite what you say about this, you have become a cyber friend to many of us, and so we are thinking of you and hoping for the best for you and your wife in this.

Hope your CO status comes throughg. But whatever happens, you do have the strength of character of a Howard Zinn, McGovern, John Kerry and other veterans who returned from a war and used their experiences to better the world. Expecting you'll do the same if you do have to go.

[Hawkeye-X]

33. One advice

Leave your proxy to your wife to vote Democratic in case you don't get a chance to come home before the Presidential elections. As you know, most Army mails are extremely slow, and more often than not, it is opened, and if it is discovered you voted D, then your mail may be 'inadvertently' destroyed. It is better to leave your proxy with your wife. Better yet, get a honest attorney to help you protect your integrity and your right to vote even if you wind up overseas.

Hawkeye-X

[Mandate My Ass]

31. I'm sincerely sorry to hear this

I hope your CO application is approved as I know it's based in a true and deep conviction on your part. If it comes about that you must go, please be assured your DU friends will miss you and do everything in our power to protest this unjust war. All the best to you and your new wife. If there is anything I can do for either of you, please just ask.

[RandomUser]

32. It rips my heart out to read this

IC, I truly wish the best for you and your wife, and you should never have been placed in this predicament. I'm sorry that the only thing I can offer you are empty words. You deserve more than that, and better than that.

There are many blogs of soldiers in Iraq. This one is of a soldier about to leave Iraq who hates Bush. It may find special resonance with you. http://turningtables.blogspot.com/

There are a few other blogs from Iraq that may give you an inkling of what to expect. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=638648

From what I gather, one of the hardships of deployment is the damage to personal relationships. Let your wife know you love her. There is always one person in every unit who gets divorced or loses their girlfriend/boyfriend as a result of deployment. I don't wish to plant fear in your mind, but I do want to do what little I can to urge you to strenghten your love so that you won't be that person. Trust in that love and make sure it's clear to her that it will survive your deployment.

And know that we'll not rest till all the troops are home.

[IrateCitizen]

34. That's a very real fear of mine

From what I gather, one of the hardships of deployment is the damage to personal relationships. Let your wife know you love her. There is always one person in every unit who gets divorced or loses their girlfriend/boyfriend as a result of deployment.

When I came home last night I was overcome with the fear of losing my wife through all of this, and while I do try to go out of my way regularly to let her know how much I love her, it made me even more determined to do so over the next few weeks.

Trust in that love and make sure it's clear to her that it will survive your deployment.

That's all I can do in this situation.

[Eloriel]

138. Unless you chose poorly, and I really doubt you did

You won't have to worry about this. Really.

AND, to be honest, if she is unwilling to wait for you, then you will have been better off without her.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but I just want to be sure you understand that under most circumstances (i.e., NOT having chose poorly), this won't be a concern.



I am aghast and broken hearted at your news, IC. And unfortunately, I can't come up with anything more profound than: dammit all to hell, I hate these people.

I'm very impressed with your dedication to duty and having found a way to perceive some good and appropriate view of your service IF you end up having to go. But then, you're one impressive guy.

Godspeed,

Eloriel

[G_j]

36. I remember when you shared

with us your decision to register as a CO. You have our support now as always in whatever you do. We hold you and your wife in the light of everything that is good and decent in this world.

Peace, G_j & Stone_Spirits

P.S. When I applied for CO status in 1968 I was told by my draft counselor at the Friends Service Committee that it was standard proceedure to turn down COs the first time around. At that time it was possible to appeal that decision. So if you are turned down I hope you can still appeal.

[tom_paine]

37. God, I am so sorry to hear that Chris

If you are unable to dissociate yourself with the Imperial Bushevik Forces (I don't blame you...like me, you also signed on to protect and defend the Old American Republic, which doesn't currently exist), at least keep safe and come home safe.

Good luck in your efforts.

tom_paine
USAF Vet 1981-1985

[DinahMoeHum]

38. Damn, this situation really sucks, IC. . .

but all of us here at DU, I sure, pledge to do what you ask for (in yr last paragraph) so that the troops can come home safe.

If, G*d forbid, you do go out there, let us know, one way or another, how we can send packages, e-mails, whatever you and/or your troops need. And let us know how we can help your family and your wife back home, materially, spiritually, whatever.

Meanwhile, we'll do what we can to give you the best welcome home present ever, which would be kicking that POS out of the WH come next November.

G*d Bless!/Peace,
FZ

:grouphug:

[Ellen Forradalom]

39. Please consider writing regular articles for DU if you do go

You express yourself well, and we will need the info from the ground.

[IrateCitizen]

42. Already on that idea...

I'm actually looking for outlets a little "bigger" than DU through which to do this. Anybody with media contacts, your assistance would be welcome. I even have a piece mulling around in my head as to why the endeavor of occupation is doomed to failure just based on some realities of attitudes within the ranks.

[Ellen Forradalom]

There's always blog-keeping, too.

Blog archives will be the raw materials historians will feast on.

[MuseRider]

40. I am so sorry

to hear about this. You have great courage in your commitment. I truly hope your discharge comes through but if it does not I wish you luck. I wish you lived closer, your wife would be welcome. We will continue to work our hardest to get this taken care of.

[newyawker99]

41. Chris, I hope you hear good news soon.

My thoughts are with you and your wife.

[9215]

43. A tough decision

glad I don't have to make it.

I certainly hope you are not faced with a duty that goes against your conscience.

[xray s]

44. Thanks for posting IC, we will be thinking of you

I know this is really tough for you. My wife and I know some young men from our neighborhood over in Iraq. I wish you didn't have to go, but if you end up going, I know those kids and many others like them will be in good hands, because of guys like you.

We will keep you and your wife in our prayers.

[TNOE]

45. Just too damn sad and too damn ridiculous

really hard to hear - only hope for a miracle. Very very sorry - just hope for the best and know that you will be thought of often.

[Kamika]

46. You should ask your commanding officer..

Just why are we fighting there

[IrateCitizen]

58. My battalion commander has no more say than I do

Perhaps we should all ask our elected officials, repeatedly and unceasingly, why we are fighting there.

If soldiers are being sent to Iraq and dying over there, it is not because ANY of the soldiers failed. It is because WE ALL failed to prevent it from happening in the first place. Myself definitely included.

[ProfessorGAC]

47. Eeep!

This is not good, I/C. Keep your head down. Best scenario, they decide they don't need your reserve team.
The Professor

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

54. You sound pretty brave Chubbles

Regular office chair warrior there. I vote we send you instead.




Chicken Hawk's bio

Name: Henery Hawk

Cartoon: Looney Toones

Employer: Warner Bros

Famous colleague(s): Most of the Bush administration

[Chubbles]

108. I expect you to laugh this off with one of your

funny little pictures and a couple of zany lines, but...

I am in awe of the courage that very ordinary people have mustered to defend this country- now and in the past.

Several of my students from east L.A. have become Marines in the last several years. Most of them are now deployed in Iraq and we get letters from them all the time. Reading them is a testament of their courage and loyalty to their colleagues and their mission. When they signed up, there was no war, no September 11, Bush was not in office. They knew, however, that anything could happen.

Almost all of them are democrats and very liberal in general, but they accept their role in the military- they realize that it is a committment that is sometimes paid by the soldier with his or her service. And they realize that as a soldier you don't get to pick and choose your war or your role.

I don't agree with the war in Iraq, but I have such a huge amount of respect for those kids that I have helped to teach and raise- and I appreciate their unflinching committment to their fellow soldiers to such a high degree- that I have little patience for anyone who is not to this standard.

I believe that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, and so I don't bring that aspect into my philosophy of why I respect the soldiers who honor their committment to their country. Those kids humble me because they have honored themselves by doing what was expected of them- and not running away or crying about it.

They shame us all.



on edit: I also pray for and wish nothing but the best for IrateCitizen. I pray you stay out of harms's way and come home safe and sound to your wife. And I hope ALL the troops come home sooner rather than later.

[IrateCitizen]

109. You wish me the best -- even as I "run away or cry about it"???

I wasn't fortunate enough to catch your first response, but I caught this one. While I have no problem with the admiration you have for your former students, I do have issues with your implication that my personal dilemma -- one that has been only increasing in degree for the past three or four years -- is somehow "shaming us all".

Please don't do me the disservice of patronizing me. You have made your opinions clear, and for that I do not harbor you any resentment, even if I do not agree with them. However, don't say that I am "shaming us all" out of one side of your mouth while you say you "wish me only the best" out of the other. It's disrespectful, and I personally would not do you the same disservice.

[Chubbles]

111. Didn't use "shame" in reference to you, sir...

but in reference to those kids who are honoring their obligations- even if they don't agree with why they're doing it.

If you feel shame- that's your business.

I feel a certain shame in how they face their plight. They have no reason to be there fighting a rich, white man's war. And yet they go anyway.

They may not be as world-wise as you. Maybe they haven't been able to articulate the same resentment as you. They may not even feel that there is any upside to being there. But those kids have grown in interesting ways since I saw them last. A few years ago they were interested only in partying, getting married, getting high, going to college, starting a band-- now they're concerned about keeping each other alive, completing their mission and coming home in one piece.

I never thought I'd be the one to say I've learned a life-lesson from a bunch of young homies. But I did. And I share it with you- without venom or finger pointing.

Go and do your duty, soldier.

[RapidCreek]

117. Yea you did....

What's shameful is your misguided belief that volunteering to serve in defense of ones country equates with being forced to serve as as a mercenary for Haliburton. Therein lies the problem....half the country is as ignorant as you are in this regard. Hence, soldiers like IrateCitizen are put into the position they are in.....as are the "homies" you claim to have such an overwhelming respect for. The indifference described by your apathy and ignorance is not respectful to anyone in the military...quite the contrary. Indifference wrapped in vacuous equivocation is not respect, fella. It's an insult to those of us who have served in our Nations military....the worst kind of insult.

You are the sort who inspires me to believe that reinstatement of the draft is a very good thing. I'd love to see the "interesting ways" in which you would grow....if faced with the likelihood of loosing a limb or your life for the honor of doing security guard work for Haliburton. You know....as opposed to braving the dangers of the teachers lounge, while sipping coffee and contemplating the next hollowly ingratiating, magnanimous, equivocation you will use to disguise the stain of hypocritical cowardice that pollutes your soul. Indeed...I suspect you would become much less flippant, much less apathetic, much less condescending, much less ignorant and much less prone to the use of vacuous equivocation. Nope, none of those qualities serve one very well when attempting to point out the distinction between being drafted to serve ones country and being drafted to serve as a mercenary for Haliburton. I suspect a smart boy like you would find a thousand logical reasons why you shouldn't be expected to do either....and all of them would be swimming in the soup of your new found moral clarity.



Rapid Creek
United States Navy Veteran

[betio]

130. No one held a gun to IC's head when he signed up

to get all the perks and bennies associated with joining the reserve. IC knew full well that one of the possibilities associated with taking money from the US government for his role as an active reservist was the distinct possibility that he would be called to deploy-- and no guarantees that his deployment would meet his criteria for an acceptable war.

Furthermore, there can be no way that he will be granted CO status. People who freely enlist are not considered generally eligible for the simple reason that volunteering to enlist assumes that you are ready, willing and able to fight.

Finally, I would not recommend taking your chances with military justice, IC. Contrary to what others have been saying, you will not be slapped on the wrist. The Bush administration will not be particularly sympathetic to folks who decide they want to sit this one out.

Bottom line advice: Do your time, the time that you knew was a possibility when you signed the forms.

[dreissig]

131. He Didn't "Enlist"

His situation is even worse than that of someone who enlisted. This man is an officer. He more than enlisted, he accepted a commission. I can't imagine him receiving CO status.

[RapidCreek]

135. No guarantee that his deployment would meet WHOSE

criteria for an acceptable war? His, you say? By this statement you suggest that there are criteria for an acceptable/justifiable war and you know what they are. Whether or not they might jive with IrateCitizens, what are these criteria and where do they find their origins? Elaborate in detail. Share with me, your wealth of knowledge. I know the answer to both of the questions I have asked.....I'm quite interested to see if you do, since you speak with such authority on the matter. After answering these questions contrast the definition you give of a Just War with the war the US is waging on Iraq. I'm guessing you lack the ability to do any of these things.

To address your second to last paragraph....There are quite a few ways to get oneself ejected from the service without becoming involved with military justice.

RC

[betio]

155. The man needs to accept his responsibilities...

That's the bottom line- and I'm not going to get into any half-baked crock of sh#t discussion about criteria. You know what I mean: IC MIGHT have gone to war of his own volition had the circumstances been different, i.e. a democratic president, or a war he "believed in." That's not the way it works, guys.

You sign on the dotted line and your ass is Uncle Sam's until your time is done

Period. End of story.

[Clark Can WIN]

137. Where did all these fuckin' chickenhawk freepers

come from? Gawd. We need to hose this place down.

[RapidCreek]

139. Where chicken hawks tread

chiken shit follows.

Ah say son, Wheres the power washer? Dis hea coop needs ah sprayin! Wooooweee!

RC

[betio]

156. You think my point of view is chickenshit?

I honor those who honor their obligations and responsibilities.

What do you honor?

If IC had a shred of integrity HE NEVER WOULD HAVE ENLISTED or ACCEPTED HIS COMMISSION!!!!

To support this waffling-- and denigrate me and other folks who have the balls to call him on it-- is beyond the pale.

You might as well just say: "No contract is valid if I don't FEEEEL like honoring it after I've taken what I want."

What is chickenshit about that?

And by the way: I am not a freeper or a republican nor do I even particularly support the war in Iraq! I'm just sick of our society making it so easy for people to hide from their responsibilities- whatever they may be.

[IrateCitizen]

159. Don't you speak to me of integrity, sir

Not when you are making some gross assumptions about my situation that are not true.

1. When I signed my contract, I was 19 years old. I was essentially signing the next 12 years of my life away, at 19. I am 30 now. My views on a lot of things have changed immensely over the past 3 years, as they do for many people who become concerned with issues like personal and spiritual growth.

2. Criteria for Conscientious Objection are clearly defined by AR600-43. I applied for CO discharge over a year ago, and had been struggling with it for a year prior to that. My application is far from a last-minute decision, which was recognized by both my company commander and chaplain, both of whom recommended approval of my claim. The investigating officer appointed to my case recommended denial, but also demonstrated an extreme bias in his report -- a bias recognized by my company commander more so than me.

3. I have applied with full knowledge and acceptance that approval of my claim and subsequent discharge will result in my having to pay back some or all of the scholarship monies I received. The pay I have received as a member of the United States Army Reserve was not simply given to me -- I have still attended scheduled drill, meetings, etc. and fulfilled the duties of my assigned position, even while my claim has been processed.

4. The soldiers who have served under me would greatly disagree with your assessment, and many of them even know of my claim (even if they personally don't agree with it).

5. My basis for CO discharge is not an opposition to this particular war -- it is an opposition to war and militarism in general. While I did not have this attitude when I first signed my contract over 11 years ago, it has developed over time. This is the reason that the military still has the CO discharge, even if they don't publicize it much.

In closing, you are entitled to your opinion, whether or not it is agreement with mine. But you do not have the right to slander me with accusations of "not having a shred of integrity" when all you know of my situation is what you have skimmed over on a message board. The soldiers and officers with whom I have served, both above and below me in rank, would widely disagree with your assessment.

[betio]

168. A contract is a contract, IC

you can claim youthful stupidity if you want, but that doesn't mean that you have not directly BENEFITTED from your 12 years in the reserve.

It's time to PAY IT BACK. Nothing is for free in our society.

Sorry to be such a bummer when you've been getting so much support and sympathy.

[IrateCitizen]

170. Well, I guess I was right about one thing...

Based on your response, you have absolutely no grounds to speak to me about the meaning of integrity. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion, and if you think less of me for what I'm doing, that's your problem -- not mine.

[betio]

172. That's right, IC, this is JUST my opinion...

And as such should be held no higher than any other opinion. You are absolutely right about that.

But this is an opinion that is shared by many people- perhaps not on this board which appears to be a sanctuary for like-minded people. As such, perhaps it is important for you to know that there is "another side" to this issue.

And again- I am not a flag waver at all. My grief with you comes from your reluctance to meet your obligations head on. Plenty of people do things every day that they simply DO NOT want to do. But they do it anyway, because they made a promise, because they owe it to somebody, because it's the right thing to do- whatever.

It's called being a responsible adult. At thirty- you're still a few years shy of that, perhaps. Going to Iraq may in fact turn out to be the best thing that you could do for yourself. The world and life has a funny way of presenting things that seem so wrong, yet reveal themselves to be right in some unexpected way.

Good luck- I'll touble you no further on this matter.

[haele]

173. Speaking as a retired Navy Chief who's done her time

and lived up to her side of "the contract" - in my opinion, and in the opinion of other retired military in the DOD contractor's office I work at, IC is not breaking his contract.

The reality is that government has broken their end of the contract he signed, by forcing him and others like him to participate in a conflict that has nothing to do with the security of national interest, international treaties, or defending the Constitution.

If IC believes that this "conflict" is supporting Halliburton, Brown and Root, and Bechtel's right to a no-bid contract in a corporate empire-building operation that is draining the resources and endangering the security of the People and the Country for the benefit of a few, he has every right - indeed, he has a duty - to apply for conciencous objector status.

I don't think you understand - he, and I, and several other retired officers and senior NCO's of my aquaintence believe that to go to Iraq and participate in the rape and pillage of that country is an unlawful order, against the UCMJ. As such, I repeat, he has the DUTY to make his objections and reasoning for those objectives known.

Otherwise, he's in a situation no better than those officers who agreed to join the Waffen SS, because "their superior officers told them that was what they were supposed to do".

This is purely a mercenary operation - and I can guarentee that I - retired and "been there, done that" during Gulf War I, Grenada, and the Panama Excursions, my father - another retired Navy Chief who is currently trying to help other reservests in the Employer/Guard program and sees what is happening to reservists who are being screwed 10 ways to Sunday over there, and my husband, former Air Force will support IC in whatever decision he makes.

If you haven't been to see the Elephant, you have no clue as to what you're really talking about.

Haele
Military Contractor/Field Engineer
USN/USNR (ret), 1979 - 1998

[betio]

174. Tell that to the VietNam draftees...

who had no idea why they were there, or flat-out rejected the concept of the domino effect-- yet went anyway.

You will NEVER make the case in any court, military or civillian, that the government is in breech of contract. NEVER!

To advise IC to attempt such an action is foolish. You can wish it. You can believe it. You can talk about it. But that's where it ends.

Otherwise, he's in a situation no better than those officers who agreed to join the Waffen SS, because "their superior officers told them that was what they were supposed to do".

Had to bring in the Nazi stuff, didn't you?

Gawd! Yeah- those fine soldiers over there are raping, pillaging, murdering, conducting medical experiments, exterminating the undesirables...

Is that the experience YOU had in the military? You were surrounded by brown-shirt thugs salivating to commit war crimes?!?

Bleachh!

[haele]

175. There were a few of them when I was in...

And there still are. Mostly they were guys - and gals - who either have never seen what duty and death really is, or got lost in the bloodshed. Ask your friends about trophies, and what type of soldiers took them. Ask your friends about the nightmares.

Then ask your friends if they would have respected an officer who refused to accept an operation and get his men killed in an operation that was not supporting the aims of the Army or Marines, but protecting games played by General Dynamics or Chevron Oil.

Ask them what the line between "following orders" and defending the Constitution of the United States and the People of the United States is.

The other question to be asked is this - if they understood then what is known now about the reasons for the "war", would they have "done their duty"?

Would they willingly kill and risk themselves and their buddies being killed for a lie?

The facts are this; the situation in Iraq for "Gulf War II" is similar to more to what the situation in CAMBODIA - 1973 - 1975 or Central/South America in the late 1970's/early-mid 1980's was, not Vietnam - and those who went to Cambodia were NOT draftees - most were in units that were more or less hand-picked by CIA operatives and had handlers. The draft your Vietnam buddies remember was over by then - and many of them were probably already home. We were no longer fighting the "Red Menace" - it was known that we had lost.
As it were, there were many officers and enlisted during that time that went CO or managed to get their orders changed when they found themselves ordered to those areas.

On edit - I know of two senior NCO's who successfully sued the military for breach of contract when they were courtmartialed for refusing orders to go to El Salvidor on movement. I also know of nine females who sucessfully sued the military for breach of contract when they were accused of being lesbians without cause and were literally discharged without a trial. You haven't heard of the CO and breach of contract cases in this current conflict, because it's still early. Wait until around February, when enough evidence for Court Martials are gathered so that they can convene.

It has and can be done. Especially when it is not clear if an order to deploy to a conflict area is truly legal or not and a case can be made that the merits of that conflict do not fall within the requirements to duty as set out by the officer or enlisted's contract with the United States Military. Refusing an unlawful order that can get your men killed, even in combat, is the duty of an officer and senior NCO. "Just following orders" is never an excuse for following what is preceived as an unlawful order. And the preception of an order is a major factor in both defense and prosocution.
This part of the UCMJ was drilled into me when I made senior NCO.

End of edit.

Unfortunatly, Iraq is requiring far more resources on the ground than any of the above mentioned conflicts did - so there's no ability for the military to pick and choose what starry-eyed gung-ho units they can send in to fight a guerilla war - and current administration cannot hide the fact that this is a naked power grab on an empirical level that's actually hurting the lives of the families of these soldiers "back home".

Vietnam, Cambodia, Central America, and even Gulf War I didn't adversely effect the population, economy, and social structure of the general US. This excursion by profiteers, where the military is providing cut rate security forces, is.

There are more ways than one to show that this whole bloody conflict is against the moral spirit of the UCMJ, not to mention the Constitution of the United States.

As a side - you obviously have no clue as to what the average Waffen SS went through before he became a brain-dead machine of the Third Reich, either...the majority of them were just simple farm boys, students, and general military men who were told to "suck it up and do your duty for the Fatherland". Unfortunatly, Nuremburg and subsequent World Courts have shown that "doing your duty" does not excuse you from going ahead and following an unlawful order. It would behoove you to actually search out and ask some of the older Germans who were former soldiers of the Reich what they would have done, had they known what was actually happening. Ask them if given the choice, they would have continued to follow orders or gone CO...

It seems as if you are all gung-ho to wave the flag and be proud of doing your duty for country - which is great, if what your country is doing is fully within the moral clarity of what it stands for.

There's a lot of officers who have far more permenant careers than IC here who are stuck trying to mitigate what this administration is doing. And most of them have already found themselves shut out of the decision making loop.

Y'know - there's nothing like watching an organization that should be proud of what it's charter is going down the tubes to rampent greed, jingoistic hubris, and outright incompetance. All most of us still in the business are trying our darn'dest just to try to keep the casualties on all sides to a minimum, and keep our heads down until we can manage to direct some sense of sanity and honor in what is going on. The sick feeling of betrayed patriotism...to those of us dedicated to our country, it's like losing a loved family member.

Frankly, m'dear betio - these troops are getting fucked far worse than what I remember the 'Nam era draftees are. They're getting fucked both incountry and at home - and worse than what happened to the 'Nam vets - at least there was some semblance of care for the safety of the troops in terms of mission, training and equipment.

In Iraq, there's not even a mission. Just "stand there, look patriotic and get killed for 9/11, the re-selection and the suits".

BTW, what's your 'Nam buddy's take on the constant transfer of senior NCO's and officers in and out of units and the strange patterns of duty rotation and granting leave?
IME, that's a major warning sign that there's a lot of unrest in the ranks and that the chickenhawks who are supporting this excersize want to keep the mushrooms quiet as long as they can.

FYI - none of the military officers and retirees I work for supported this conflict in the first place.
General consensis is that it's a waste of bodies and money - to do this right, we should have gone in with the UN similar to the way we went into Kosavo. We're so far over our heads, the only helmets you'd see were the ones not secured by chinstraps. There is no duty to country here, only survival.

To put it in a way your 'nam buddies would understand, Iraq II is nothing but a meat-grinding civilian run cluster-fuck. Unless you want to die, get the fuck out of there.

Haele

[Tinoire]

162. What are your responsabilities?

To shut your eyes blindly and beat the drums as young Americans go marching off to Bush's oil grab? Or do you prefer to stand on the sidelines shouting "Left, right left, duty, honor, country"- is that your contribution? Your contribution of integrity?

I am grateful there are people like Irate Citizen in this world, men of courage, wisdom and integrity of whom we can be proud. It's a shame those are the men we call while chicken-shits remain hidden in offices and behind key-boards sprewing their garbage.

[IrateCitizen]

163. Tinoire -- you should be sure to mention you're retired Army...

with regards to this post.

And thank you for your kind words.

[betio]

171. And I should mention...

That I have raised this issue with three vietnam vets, including one draftee who made corporal as an M60 gunner-- they all say you should stop fussing and go. Do your time, keep your head down, stay alive, and when you get back home-- your right to free speech in regards to saying how much you hate Bush, war, the military-- whatever, will be firmly intact and there will be thousands of people hanging on your every word.

Personally, I think there is credibility in a deployed veteran speaking against war.

[betio]

169. This arguement isn't about me...

It's about IC and how he faces his OBLIGATION to the military.

Nothing else needs to be addressed.

[sangh0]

49. My parayers will be with you, IC

Let us know if there's ANYTHING I could to help out.

[Mari333]

50. Please contact these people

http://www.mfso.org/
they have information and help PLEASE
email them they are a cohesive group and have numbers and people you can call

also here
http://girights.objector.org/

[IrateCitizen]

57. Marianne, I've been in touch with them many times already...

I've been working closely with the Center on Conscience and War, they were the group that helped me write and process my application.

Since I'm still under contract (until 12/15/2004), there aren't a whole lot of options I have, legally speaking.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. I am so sorry to hear this

You are in my thoughts.

[JanMichael]

52. I hoping that the 10% chance that you won't be happens!

I'm sorry that BushCo has made this such a horrible time to be in the Reserves...

[Liberal Classic]

53. Vaya con Dios IC

Like I said, I do not do this in the spirit of supporting why I would be deploying. I would do it because I would rather see myself appointed with the responsibility of ensuring that those under my command come back alive

You may yet make a difference. Semper Fi!

[Nederland]

55. My thoughts are with you

I hope you get that CO.

You still need to come out to Colorado and go snowboarding with me. Oh well, if not this season then next season. Stay safe.

[Hawkeye-X]

177. Can I go with you instead.

I need sanity, and snowboard lessons!

I like to ski at WP btw.

Hawkeye-X

[cindyw]

56. If we all thought that we could not rally together after the primary

I think this thread shows we can. We have a lot of real descent people here. I have confidence, despite the recent tension that we will come together to fight for what is right and necessary in the end.

[Redleg]

59. Good luck, IrateCitizen.

If you end up going, stay safe.

[proud patriot]

60. Fuck Fuck Fuck

I will do all I can back home to end this maddness :-(

[dreissig]

61. Don't Go

You have the option of not going. You took an oath of office to preserve, protect and defend the constitution, not to participate in an illegal occupation.

I think you should refuse to obey an illegal order. You'll go to prison, but you'll get out eventually. You'll be able to hold your head high, knowing that you obeyed your own conscience. On the other hand, if you go to Iraq, you might be killed.

[IrateCitizen]

62. Easy thing for you to say from where you are

The problem with your line of thinking is, should I have to go and I refuse, there will still be someone else put in my place. And that person may not be quite so concerned about the troops underneath them, let alone trying to hold on to a sense of humanity when confronted with situations that make you naturally question it.

In short, my not going would not accomplish much more than ending up in prison, and with extremely limited options for both myself and my wife upon my release.

What will you do to help me through this? Will you support myself and my wife? Will you put yourself on the line as well to end wars of imperial conquest and colonial occupation? Or will you just egg others on from behind the safety of your computer terminal.

Unless you are someone who has actually DONE what you are urging me to do, your advice rings rather hollow. No, check that -- it rings COMPLETELY hollow.

[demsrule4life]

66. Please understand

being retired military I have a hard time feeling sympathy for you.
Your comment "And that person may not be quite so concerned about the troops underneath them, let alone trying to hold on to a sense of humanity when confronted with situations that make you naturally question it" shows me you are a good officer and the military needs more like you.

[proud patriot]

67. I got goosebumps from those words Irate Citizen

You are Honorable, Last night night I watched
Black Hawk Down , the line " People back home
don't understand why we do what we do , that
it's about the man next to you . "

Rings true to my ears in your words .

[JohnKleeb]

68. Thats what I always hear from the veterans

I am doing it for the guy next to me. Thats also kind of the reason why I am a liberal, I am for all being benefitted.

[dreissig]

73. It's Not About Me

It's not about me, it's about you. You accepted a reserve commission, it wasn't forced on you. If you feel you were deceived, you should fight it out in court.

This is no time for you to worry about optimizing your career. Events have overtaken you - you have no good options. If you refuse to go to Iraq, you will be denounced as a coward and you will go to prison. If you go to Iraq, you will be put in morally compromising situations, some of which will haunt you the rest of your life. You stand a chance of being hurt, or killed.

What were you thinking when you accepted that commission? What did they lead you to believe?

[IrateCitizen]

75. No, it's not even completely about "me" either

This has nothing to do with optimizing my career. If I do have to go, I will come back and tell the Army that it can go f*** itself -- my contract will be up, and I will be out the door, and there will be NOTHING they can do to stop me.

What this has to do with is to do everything I can to further the values I hold true no matter what circumstances I find myself in. I will work to further them if I get my CO discharge, and I will work to further them if I am sent to Iraq.

As for why I find myself in this predicament -- I was 19 when I signed my contract as an ROTC cadet. I'm 30 now. Let's just say my views have changed a great deal over those 11 years. Perhaps if I have been exposed to the likes of Noam Chomsky, Michael Parenti and Howard Zinn while I was a teenager, my situation would have ended up differently. Unfortunately, this is the hand I have been dealt, and I have to play it the best I can. :shrug:

[dreissig]

79. Refuse to Go

I thought you were a kid out of college, and now you say you're 30 years old. You are also saying that you have the option to refuse to go and the Army can't stop you. Well, let that be the end of it. Consider yourself lucky you can get out so easily.

You've been an officer for 11 years and you're just now discovering you're a conscientious objector. Why would the Army believe that? Why would anybody?

If your unit is scheduled to be activated and you don't want to go, don't go. Take the option and run with it.

[RapidCreek]

118. I do.....PM me if your interested...and we can talk.

RC
USN Vet

[mzmolly]

122. Please dont' go! You dont' have to leave your family for BUSH!

PM Rapid Creek!

[IrateCitizen]

146. Deleted message

[juajen]

145. I sincerely hope that you will not have to go, but,

if you do, I will pray for you as I pray for all the troops every night. God is a democrat, ya know. Love and kisses for you and your wife. Introduce her to us and DU. We can help keep her company if you have to go. It will help, honest.

[jiacinto]

64. What I think

You have the utmost sympathy for the predicament in which you find yourself. I understand what is at stake. Your life could be in danger going over there and you don't want to leave your wife behind.

I doubt that you will get CO status and will have to go there. At least I am glad that you are not going AWOL and thus putting more strain on your marriage. Going to Ft. Leavenworth, KS is not going to be beneficial for your situation.

All I can say is that I wish you the best of luck. I don't know what else to say.

[dreissig]

74. CO Status

I agree that he probably won't get CO status. Draftees sometimes get them but this guy is an officer. In my opinion his best shot is to claim that the contract is invalid because he was deceived.

If he goes to Iraq he might get killed. As bad as it is to die for a noble cause, dying for bullshit is a lot worse.

[IrateCitizen]

76. Once again, this is not about my living or dying...

This is about seeking to live my life in a way that will help spread the ideals of love, compassion, cooperation and empathy that I view to be the highest ideals of humanity.

As for the CO, my advisors think I have a good claim, my investigating officer did a real hatchet job on me in his report. Even my company commander recognized it. All I can do is wait and see how it turns out. In any event, I will be far from the first officer to receive a CO discharge, should I get it.

[DrWeird]

81. There's nothing loving, compassionate, or humane about this war.

And I believe you when you say it's not about you living or dying. I'm more inclined to believe it's more about Iraqis dying or you going to prison.

[jiacinto]

83. What would you do?

Go to Ft. Leavenworth? Don't judge IC--that's just self-righteous, given that you probably have never served one day for this country.

[DrWeird]

86. I'd sooner go to prison than Iraq.

How many days have you served? Hmm?

[dreissig]

105. It Won't Come To That

Trust me, the Army doesn't want officers who read poetry in their spare time. They want guys who are 100% gung ho. The Army is not as inflexible as civilians think.

[IrateCitizen]

87. Don't defend me with the "serving your country" crap, Carlos...

What I'm doing has nothing to do with "serving my country", whatever that empty phrase means. What it has to do with is trying to find the best way to live by the values I hold most important even when confronted with circumstances that are not exactly what I would like.

While I appreciate your other response, the last thing I want put up as a reason for what I'm choosing is an empty slogan like "serving your country".

In the words of Albert Camus, "It would be nice to be able to serve justice and your country both."

[jiacinto]

90. But here is the point

The orignal poster will never have to deal with the stresses of military service or face the prospect of going to Ft. Leavenworth, KS.

[DrWeird]

91. I never made the mistake of signing up for the ROTC.

Particularly because I knew enough about Vietnam to know that signing up for the military has nothing to do with defending america and everything to do with getting the incumbent president reelected.

[jiacinto]

95. I have three friends who did ROTC

They are Republican. And I don't agree with their politics. But I do respect them for serving our country.

[IrateCitizen]

99. They're high class muscle for international capital, Carlos...

"Serving their country" has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

This reality was recognized by none other than 2-time Medal of Honor recipient Smedley Darlington Butler. Take a few minutes and read through his WAR IS A RACKET speech.

Like I said before, Carlos -- I appreciated your earlier response, but I don't need you to defend me with false platitudes and empty language.

[DrWeird]

100. They're not serving our country. They're serving Bush.

This war has nothing to do with serving the country.

[dreissig]

101. Serving Our Country?

Oh yeah. That's right. The invasion of Iraq kept Saddam from launching WMD missile strikes on the United States. Good thing we stopped him in time, too! I was really frightened, and I'm sure you were, too.

[dreissig]

88. When In Doubt, Do the Right Thing

Whether it's money you owe and you'd rather not pay, or an apology you'd rather not make, or a stand against injustice that will be personally expensive, the issue is sometimes clear even if the course of action is not.

Here's a guy who knows that the war in Iraq is wrong and is debating whether he should go. Refusing to go is clearly the right thing, although there's no doubt it will be expensive. But he's 30 years old, and it's a defining moment in his life.

When he's 70 looking back, which decision will give him greater peace of mind? If he knows it's wrong and he does it anyhow, he may regret it the rest of his life. On the other hand, he has the chance to hold his head high for the rest of his life. It's a dilemma, no doubt about that!

[jiacinto]

92. He has a wife to support

And what is she going to do when he gets shipped off to Ft. Leavenworth, KS?

[dreissig]

97. That's Unlikely

Actually it's unlikely that the Army will put this guy in Leavenworth. He has to start acting a little less confrontational and a little more willing to deal.

The Army does not want to get into fights like this. Given the opportunity, they will dicker! You'll have to trust me on this - I've seen it happen over and over again.

[IrateCitizen]

96. Read through the following post on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=639395&mesg_id=639561&page=

Concentrate on the excerpt from the article linked. And be certain to click on the linked article and read through it -- it might give you a better idea of how I am looking at this dilemma.

[RapidCreek]

124. Have you?

God I get tired of you. The man can do a whole hell of allot more good for the world staying home and raising a family....something I believe he would accel at, given his words.

Your horror stories of Leavenworth ARE BULLSHIT. I know many who got out of the service...they didn't go AWOL and they didn't go to Leavenworth.

I would suggest that you follow your own advice, given that I KNOW you have never served one day in YOUR life for this country.

RC
USN Vet

[IrateCitizen]

84. There's nothing loving, compassionate or humane about ANY war

Hence, the reason why I applied for the CO discharge.

HOWEVER....

In the midst of situations that compel people to run away from the most basic notions of humanity, do you believe that it is better for those who might be more inclined to cling to whatever humanity they possibly can to allow someone without such values to take their place, or do you see it as more advantageous for them to go in hopes that their humanity might be able to spread to others under terrible conditions?

I'm more inclined to believe it's more about Iraqis dying or you going to prison.

That's so patently absurd I'm not even going to address it.

[DrWeird]

89. Is it really absurd?

You said yourself that you're exhausting any means to avoid the war, except simply refusing to go. Then you say that if you are forced to go, it will be a good thing that it was better you than somebody else. If you really believed that than why are you trying to get out? Sounds to me like you're just trying to justify for yourself something that you know is wrong.

[IrateCitizen]

93. Please read through this post from this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=639395&mesg_id=639561&page=

Make sure you click on the linked article and read the whole thing. Then you might have an idea of why I look at this dilemma in the way I do.

[DrWeird]

98. I think I understand your point.

It is, if you don't go, the other guy could be some ultra-violent, fascist war criminal and that could make it even worse than it already is.

And that's a good argument. One I might even agree with. But if you really believe it then why are you trying to get CO status? The same guy will be incharge whether you get CO status or desert.

[IrateCitizen]

103. Because I'm afraid of losing my own humanity in the process

Honestly, that's why. The whole idea of going to war sickens me. Each and every time I put on my uniform and go to drill, I am never filled with a sense of pride but rather one of dread and inner conflict. It's been that way for quite some time now.

While before I looked at it as "serving my time and getting out", after 9/11 I really assessed the senselessness of the continuing cycle of violence. That's when I began to seriously consider the CO, and even then it took me a good 7-8 months to finally decide to file.

I just look at the refusal and possible jail time as the worst outcome overall, it's not like I haven't seriously considered it. If I get my CO, I'm free to dedicate my energies to organizing and acting against militarism. If I don't get it and go to Iraq, I can use my perspective on the ground to send weekly or biweekly articles back to the US and get them published in alternative media, along with the reasons I cited previously. But if I'm court martialed and imprisoned -- I'm not free to organize and act, my wife is in dire straits, and I'm not doing anything to positively affect what's going on over there.

[DrWeird]

106. Satyagraha

nt

[dreissig]

107. Intelligent Resistance

Once you get to Iraq you will find your options so limited that you'll wonder what you were thinking. Your best chance now is to hire a lawyer and litigate like crazy.

Don't fool around here. You do not want to go to Iraq. Don't go.

[dreissig]

82. Love, Compassion, Cooperation and Empathy

If your highest values are "... love, compassion, cooperation and empathy ..." and you've been an Army officer for eleven years, I'm surprised that this conflict hasn't occurred sooner. Iraq doesn't sound like a place where you will find expression of your ambitions.

You've made a mistake. Don't put your new wife through the anxiety of wondering where you are or whether you are dead or alive. You have the option to walk away from a deal that represents a loss for all concerned - take it.

[IrateCitizen]

85. I've been an officer for just under 7 years

I signed my contract when I was an ROTC cadet. Believe me, if I would have had an "out" before this, I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

[dreissig]

94. Calling Their Bluff

If you genuinely don't want to go, the Army will threaten you with disgrace and imprisonment, etc. But they won't necessarily go through with it, especially if they don't have a clean case. Very often guys in your situation get quietly "disappeared" in the system.

If you don't want to make a crusade out of this, there's more wiggle room than civilians realize. If you really don't want to go to Iraq, you should scout around for a lawyer experienced in similar cases. Understand that there's no glory in working a deal, but it can be done.

You have other obligations to consider as well. You're not 23, you're 30. Your new wife has rights in the situation too. Remember the line from "The In-Laws"? Serpentine, Shelly! Serpentine!

[RapidCreek]

126. I can tell you've had some experience with this...

So have I....and you are right! It can be done....in a fairly painless fashion....but the longer he waites...the less that likelihood exists.

RC

[dreissig]

133. The Longer He Waits

The longer he waits the more confrontational it is. Individuals bucking the military don't usually win. If he's going to make trouble, he should do it early, while there's still time to scout around for a replacement.

[teryang]

151. Isn't the initial contract for 6 years of service?

Or did you have some other commitment?

[IrateCitizen]

152. No, mine was for 8 years, and I signed it 4 years before it took effect

So, in reality, the contract was for 12 years.

I was an ROTC scholarship recipient. I had to sign the contract at the beginning of my sophomore year. My school was a 5-year school due to it's cooperative employment program, so the period of contract didn't start until I was commissioned in December 1996.

If only I had known at 19 what I have come to know over the past 3 years....

[teryang]

158. Wow!

You are in a pickle, good luck to you!

I did a six year contract in the Army and managed to avoid war by the skin of my teeth. I was rifted during Desert Storm (the Bush Cheney downsizing). My last official act was briefing casualty assistance officers. I had mixed feelings about getting out because my career was ruined but I would have gone at the time because I didn't know about April Glaspie etc. I was on a stop loss for a while which had me on pins and needles, it was nip and tuck, but they fired me anyway. Downsizing was more important than war.

Two or three years later (when I was a civilian) there was trouble in Korea and I started getting strange phonecalls from the Army because of my extensive Korean experience. I also got mail telling me to get a physical. It was then I decided to resign my (inactive) commission because personally I could never have anything to do with such a war, because of my love for their country. Very subjective the way I made these decisions.

[JohnKleeb]

65. I knew you were in the service

I hope you and your fellow soldiers stay safe and alive. You're a brave person. I wish you all the best and hope if you are sent that you return safety.

[prolesunited]

69. It breaks my heart to hear this

and knowing that your story is just one of thousands out there who face having their lives disrupted for oil and empire makes it even worse.

Please let us know as soon as you find anything out. You will be in my thoughts.

:hug:

[DrWeird]

70. So you are going to follow orders?

That you know are wrong?

[dreissig]

77. "Easy For You To Say"

I said the same thing, and that was his response. I did Vietnam 35 years ago but I was a draftee, not an officer. Also, it was early in the war and people didn't know it was bullshit.

His situation is different. Everybody knows Iraq is bullshit, even the Freepers who support it. And he's an officer, not a draftee. He ought to get a lawyer and argue he signed an invalid contract.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

112. The alternative is not very pleasant. Military prison could be the

...least of his worries if he refuses to go. Think about it...the Bushies are probably itching to make an example of someone by executing him or her for refusing to go. In their way of thinking, what better example to everyone in the military than the execution of an officer?

And if it results in just prison time and a dishonorable discharge, that would follow him for the rest of his life. Most employers will not hire people with a dishonorable discharge, regardless of the circumstances.

As much as I hate to say it, my advice to IrateCitizen is to do exactly what he says he's going to do. There are no easy solutions.

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. I cannot help but think of you Irate. It's just not fair. Not right.

My whole being bleeds for you and your wife today. My only hope is that something happens that will cause you not to have to go. Please be strong. My thoughts and hugs go out to you today. Keep us posted.

Laura

[lapislzi]

78. My best to you, Chris

Follow your conscience so that you may safely return and follow your bliss.

If there were more like you, we wouldn't be in the predicament in which we find ourselves.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[birdman]

102. That's terrible news

You have no good choices, unfortunately.

We can only wish you the best and say that your fight
is our fight.

[ulysses]

104. certainly puts into perspective

whatever fights others of us might have.

I'm proud to call you my friend, Chris. All best to you, and if you do have to ship out, come back. Maybe it's not about your survival to you, but it is to a lot of us.

[mzmolly]

110. My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours.

I am so sorry. I do hope you keep us posted.

"I would rather ask that you commit yourselves to the broader goal of ending this pattern of imperial conquest and military occupation. I know now that, regardless of the outcome, it must become my calling as well.

Consider it done.

[Lisa]

113. I think this is an important reminder -- there are human beings in danger

On both sides -- combatant and otherwise. Some, like IrateCitizen, who are our friends ... and some whom we will probably disagree with, who may or may not realize they have been misled, and are doing what they feel they must do. No matter what happens, the aftereffects of this conflict are going to last for years. There will be survivors who will need our help and support.

My best wishes to IC and his wife ... she is at once unfortunate and lucky ... another woman I know is under terrible stress now because her husband, without consulting with her, rushed out and signed up for another hitch in the military after 9/11, leaving her with two young children to raise. IrateCitizen -- and many more servicepeople who have posted on DU -- are far more grown-up than that. Someone with a heart, and a brain ... I hope he brings both back, safe!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

114. Oh, IC, that's awful

I hope you don't have to go, but if you do, please stay safe.

[Woodstock]

115. I'm so sorry to hear this

I truly hope it doesn't come to pass.

[trumad]

121. Fuck that... Pack your bags, load them into your car and get the hell out

of this God Damn Country. If you were my son I'd give you the money to do it! This war is not about protecting our country and if it was I'd reenlist back into the 82nd Airborne.. This war is about Halliburton, Cronisim, the PNAC, etc... A bunch of Chickenhawks are playing God with folks like you and were just letting it happened... You owe nothing to these rat bastards and quite frankly your life is to important to waist for these son's of bitches!!!!!!!

Fuck those who deem you a coward! They're idiots.... Think about it! You're putting your life on the line for Bush, Cheney, Rummy and gang...Your responsibility is to your wife and family...Not the fraud in chief...

Sorry to rant...But I'm pissed that you're having to go through this...!

[mzmolly]

123. I second the 'fuck that' statement.

Screw em Irate!

[jody]

147. Apparently you and trumad agree with Bush's action to avoid VietNam.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

149. Bush wasn't married with children, and my Dad fought in Vietnam

so serve it on toast ey?

[IrateCitizen]

150. I have no problem with Bush's action to avoid Vietnam itself...

The problem I have is that it was obviously done for very selfish reasons, because the "man" has absolutely no problem advocating violence and death and destruction -- just so long as he doesn't have to participate in it.

His avoidance of Vietnam is not a problem. The problem is his outright cowardice and hypocrisy in how he conducted himself afterwards.

[jody]

119. You are not alone and it's

men and women like you that give hope to our experiment with "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

AWOL and his supporters may have won the current political skirmish but I have faith that "We the People" will rise and retake our goverment.

"May God hold you in the palm of his hand."

[rbnyc]

120. Thanks for checking in on this topic...

...I've been worrying you may have to go soon. I'm hoping for your legal discharge. Best of luck to you.

[Peace_Place]

125. Why did you join?

What did you think the army is for? How can you volunteer, collect the reserve pay and then claim you object????

The army is for one thing and that is to kill people. Did you think killing certain people was ok? Did you think you would be consulted about who you would be killing?

I know you are in engineering but they taught you to fire a weapon for a reason.

[Selwynn]

127. It doesn't sound like "killing" is the primary problem here

It sounds to me, speaking as a person who read more than three words of what IC wrote, that the problem is that the organization to which IC belongs, the United States Amry is an organization that no longer represents the same things that it once represented - the things that might encourage or inspire a person to join and serve one's country in that way.

It's one thing to be a pacifist and join the reserves hoping to never have to actually fight. It's another thing to remember a time and a place where you believed in the institution - that it was about the just insurance of American saftey and freedom, and the defense of its people from enemies and tyranny - and find that today, everything you ones believed about the institution has been left in utter shambles.

That's the difference. That and the fact that IC's petition to be discharged as a OC was filed over a year ago - so your comments are not only insensitive, they are inaccuarate.

[RapidCreek]

128. You might appreciate that reason

if your town happened to be graced with a late night visit from Chinese paratroopers.

On the other hand, you might not, if your son or husband or father was expected to do mercenary duty for Haliburton.

Is there a difference? You tell me.

What do YOU think the Army is for? Explain in detail.

RC

[Selwynn]

129. This saddens me deeply - I want to say to you, with due respect...

..to whatever your personal beliefs or lack thereof may be, this: I want you to know that this night, in about three hours, when I put on my warm clothes and overcoat and go out to walk the streets alone in the snowy night, I will pray for you and your wife... prayers for safety, for wisdom, for comfort and for strength in the face of the very distinct possibility that you will be sent to do a duty in circumstances not of your choosing and for a cause you do not believe in.

You have my profound and intense admiration and deep respect. I'm not here to second guess your decisions. If you believe you must go, I support you 100%. If you decide you must take any other courses of action, I support you, for whatever that's worth.

Stay safe..

[Mass_Liberal]

132. that's extremely noble of you

and it shows what is wrong with this country, that people like you, who are patriotic Americans who also understand that this is not about national security, but are still made to fight. I am truly sorry.

Peace

[Ilsa]

134. Nothing to add except to throw my support your way.

You know we here at DU support the troops in the best way possible: by asking they be returned home to their own families instead of fighting this bogus war.

I hope you don't have to go. As hard as it will be for her, I think your wife will do better than you think, but I wish neither of you had to deal with it.

Best wishes to you both.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

140. My thoughts are with you, IC

What a freakin' shame. I know this is not what you signed up for, or what any of those men or women signed up for. Every death in Iraq -- Iraqi or American -- is a WASTE and a crime.

It's not about defending America, or restoring democracy, or protecting or liberating anyone. It's about greed and hatred, and every single thing about it sucks.

My prayers will be with you and your wife. Please keep us posted.

[NNN0LHI]

141. Very sad thread. My thoughts are with you. Good luck n/t

[RainDog]

142. big hugs to you and yours

I hope for a miracle of democracy and an end to the Bush craziness, sooner rather than later.

If you are deployed, maybe your wife would like to get involved with military families against the war, or some other activity that will let her get involved in bringing you back home to her, and something which can also help other people.

Please give SoCalDem your overseas address so that we can send you some goodies. Please tell us if there's anything you'd like, beyond the basics.

do you like to read? any paperbacks we could send...Walter Mosley or George Pellacanos or Martha Grimes? ..or?

oh, I could send or you might want to get it for yourself, but there's a great soap which can help keep different insects from bothering you. It's called Woodsmen's Pennyroyal Paradise (I realize you won't be in the woods...) and you can get it via

www.earthdrops.com

I probably sound silly, but I guess we all wish we could do something when someone faces deployment.

I don't know where you live, but I do know that there's a unit (I hope I used the right word) which is being deployed out of Indiana very soon. A man I know has a son who will be leaving soon.

You are all in our thoughts and hearts.

"I have come into this world to see this:
the sword drop from men's hands
even at the height of their arc of anger
because we have finally realized
there is just One flesh we wound."

Hafiz, 14th century, Persia

[roguevalley]

143. Honey,

You don't have to explain this to us. We know. I am SICK in my heart that you and your unit have to go to this bullshit. If we can write
to your wife to keep her company or send things to you and your unit if you go, PLEASE let us know. Please, please, please.

You are in our hearts and prayers whether you go or not.

Hugs from Alaska,

RV

[roguevalley]

144. PS I have read this again from stem to stern and it all comes down to

personal integrity I think. My brothers were told by my uncle that he could get them out of Viet Nam and they and my father said no. It was a piece of shit war then too but they couldn't reconcile running with their personal ethical code.

You are in a bind, my friend, and the struggle is your decision about what to do. You made a deal and you have to honor it because it means something to you that might be hard to articulate. I hope that you do help others there and that you stay in touch and that if we can help you and your unit that you tell us.

I think war and the threat of facing it is the most damnable and personal thing. Everyone hopes they can be the man or woman they believe themselves to be but it is a personal one on one thing. I see and hear your conflict and feel your pain for your wife and your beliefs.

Just know you are loved and we are here for you. We truly and really are. If your wife needs a shoulder, tell her about us. We will be here.

RV, feeling sick for you and yours but respecting your decisions and thoughts on this personal, terrible dilemma.

[MSchreader]

148. Kick

:kick:

[The White Rose]

153. If you go

perhaps you can suggest to your wife that she begins posting at DU; she's got a support group of thousands here. Good luck IC, keep safe.

[teryang]

154. What each person does in a situation like this

...is make their own judgement. I don't criticize the people who go, the stakes are too high. It is a life or death issue even if that is not what is being focused on. Would it matter if this conflict were justified? The family back home is in same situation regardless of whether the war is just or not.

For me, I wouldn't fight in a war that I felt was illegal or unjustified any more than I would kill someone without justification. But that's me. I have friends who did go and fight in Vietnam but their perception and understanding of that conflict and their personal situations were completely different than mine. They didn't perceive it as an unjustified, racist, colonial killing spree. I did. I can live with the differences of individual choice. That's life.

I read that UU article and I found the description of the special forces soldier somewhat disingenuous. A special forces soldier who reups in a situation like Vietnam knows exactly what he is going to be doing. As for the mental pain of having killed people or having had comrades killed, survival guilt and mental pain may be compensable by the VA as PTSD. If it isn't PTSD then it is just grief.

I have met some people who have been in live fire episodes in a combat zone which were not exactly combat, just more like murder for sport, their civilian victims weren't armed, their guilt is just the guilt of having murdered someone. One special forces soldier I met (who was an addict) once expected me to feel sorry for him because he went on "top secret patrols" in central America, laid in wait and killed peasants fighting for land reform. I have a close friend who killed plenty of peasants/VC in Vietnam and probably participated in ARVN torture sessions. He refuses to accept any government benefits and doesn't want sympathy from anyone because he realizes now that what he did was wrong, morally wrong, although he didn't understand that as young man in his early twenties.

Someone who really has fulminating PTSD wouldn't reup for military service even if you threatened to shoot him. Just hearing a rifle shot would cause him to decompensate and become too disfunctional to even pretend he was a soldier.

[stevedeshazer]

157. Best wishes to you and your wife, Sir

If my son were to have to go there, I'd want him to be entrusted to someone like you.

Good luck.

[Brewman_Jax]

160. Hopefully you'll stay, but...

...return quickly if you should go. Having been a Naval Officer for 6 years, I understand your dilemma. The prognosis is not good for your CO application, but I'm sure that you know this.

I can't say anything more than what was already said. My thoughts, and the cats', are with you and yours. :thumbsup:

[ElementaryPenguin]

161. DON'T go, man!! You didn't sign up to protect Halliburton or PNAC!!

You signed up to defend/protect your country - and you will NOT be defending America in ANY sense - only making it actually MORE unsafe and vunerable!! Giving your life for Dick Cheney (Satan)?? FUCK THAT INDEED! No military prison on earth is going to be less desirable for American soldiers right now than Iraq! You've got a family - and this message needs to be made - in a very huge way!! I really feel for you, and whatever you choose to do, I will definitely respect that choice!

[Tinoire]

164. I am stunned and sad for you

because I know what you've been going through for the last year and remember our earlier conversations about the CO status.

You are such a fine officer. I hope if/when you get over there, that you will be surrounded by decent officers with the same sense of obligation towards the safety of those entrusted to them.

The soldiers in your care will be very lucky to have you. Please keep us, keep me informed.

You can count on us, count on me, to not stop hollering until each and every one of our men and women is home.

My heart grieves for your wife- can you get her on DU? We (I) would love to be there for her during this.

Peace and talk to you soon.

[xultar]

165. First let me say THANK YOU for serving in our...

Armed Forces.

Second, Keep us posted as to your disposition. If things should happen and you do get called up know that I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. I know all DUers will.

Third, Where do you live? Perhaps there are some DUers who can hook up with your wife and go shopping to the movies, out to dinner stuff like that. Wouldn't it be cool to have a DUers Troop Support group. We could send her letters and emails and stuff. Just let her know and all spouses and troops that we care about them.

Liberals aren't against the troops. We love our troops so much we want them home.

[soleft]

166. Can I think of you and committ myself the broader goal?

I can multi task.

:hug:

[ignatius]

167. IC, my best wishes and thoughts to you, your new bride and all your

loved ones. If your CO does not come through, then stay aware, stay strong, and keep the faith. We are all doing our best to put pressure on this fraudulent administration and his trumped up war and this will only inspire us all to work even harder for that goal.

Stay safe.

[Postman]

176. From a veteran of the US Navy, good luck...

It was May, 1983. I was married one month before I shipped out overseas to the Persian Gulf on the flagship of the Middle East Force -- USS LaSalle. We dated for three years and then got married while I was active duty.

I was 22 years old at the time and there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't ask myself the question...What the hell am I doing here? I missed being together every day. I empathize with your feelings of family separation. It's a fact of life in the Navy though no less easier to get used to. Of course, that was 1983. No illegitmate Iraq invasion, no stop-loss orders in effect, no "hot-wars" ongoing. At least not overtly.

I don't know much about how the Army allows contact with family members deployed overseas. But what I can tell you from having been deployed overseas is that Mailcall was the only thing that kept us sane, gave us the strength to continue another Watch, Shift, Workday. Everyone had a countdown calendar with the days numbered backwards to the day we would return home. Home was the goal. I can tell you there were days when it felt like it would never come.

Being at sea for long periods of time you sometime lose a sense of time. Sometime you lose track of what day it is. You figure out what time it is "back home" you think about what your family will be doing at any given time of the day. Anyway, I digress.....

Stay busy. Keep your mind occupied and focused. Keep yourself safe and come back home to your family alive.

[neuvocat]

178. You can't just resign your commission?

That sucks.