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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:13 PM
Original message
creating a liberal utopia (only 1/2 way serious)
This is part serious/ part fantasy... One thing that is not fantasy, I feel, is the very real movement to leave this country if W is elected or somehow in office in 2005. Usually, people talk about going to Canada; sometimes they choose Europe. But what would it take for Americans to re-found a New America? Again, part serious/ part fantasy. If you take it seriously, good; if not, indulge in the fantasy.

There is a website with islands for sale. Most of them are in US territories, and obviously, the US is not going to allow a separate nation within its own borders. But what about buying an island off of Luxemborg or a like country? Don't you think the government would sell the island outright for the right price?

Let's say a few wealthy liberals pool their resources together to purchase this island. From there, we allow Americans citizenship to the country for $20,000. With the goal of 1 million citizens, we're looking at $2 billion as the startup money for the nation (or is my math wrong? Too many zeroes!!)

People who wished to move to the liberal utopia but did not have $20,000 could ask to be sponsored by a wealthy liberal, or else join the government work corps to earn their citizenship. The government work corps would be used to build housing, a hospital, schools, roads, etc. Liberal businessmen and women (and yes, they do exist) could invest further into the building of resturaunts, malls, stores, etc., using the government work corps as their labor force.

Our utopia would be relatively small-- 1 to 2 million people or so-- so we could have a true democracy. The executive and judicial branches would be much like they are in the U.S., but the legislative branch would be composed of 50 congresspeople each elected to five year terms on a rotating basis so that each year ten congresspeople were up for re-election. Each election, citizens would vote on whether to keep the incumbent congresspeople in office or not. Challengers would run, and voters would be able to vote for up to two challengers. The challengers with the most votes would replace any incumbents who were voted out of office.

Our utopia would need only one large, state-of-the-art hospital. All citizens of the utopia would receive free healthcare. We would attract the best liberal doctors by offering them wages beyond what they earned in America plus freedom to do their jobs without the right-wing dominance of medicine.

We would pay our teachers two-to-three times what they are being paid in America. Our education system would not be sullied by the right. We would have one university, striving to meet our citizen's needs, but we would also sponsor study abroad for any needs our schools could not meet.

We could do all of this without taxing our citizens any higher than we are being taxed right now-- in fact, probably much less-- because there would be no waste or graft, nor any funding of a military (we would pay a small tax to Luxemborg to ensure protection), nor funding of a war on drugs.. We wouldn't need welfare, nor the constant building of prisons, nor extensive law enforcement.

Economically, a small country of 1 to 2 million of America's best and brightest should nearly be able to sustain itself. However, to increase our wealth, we would rely heavily on the internet, and internet business as a means to deliver high-tech services to non-citizens.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ugh! Liberal utopia would probably be as horrid in it's own way
as the Bushevik Imperial Utopia we are building here in Amerika.

I am equally distrustful of the extreme left as I am the extreme right.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. extreme?
Extreme left = communism. My name is "liberalcapitalist." There would be nothing extreme left about liberal utopia. It would simply be devoid of the extreme right.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Dude that's hardly extreme Left!
Hell he's barely re-created the Scandinavian/German Welfare State.

Relaaaaaax...
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. sounds like
another attempt at a commune to me. these practically always fail. I can't think of any that have survived, but I am willing to be corrected on this. However, it sounds like it would be another scam to separate guilt-stricken liberals from their money. there are much better ways to put that money to work for society's benefit, if that is what is wanted.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. it wouldn't have to be
Most communes have a totalitarian leadership, do they not?
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I have never heard of a commune with totalitarian leadership
really, not one.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Jim Jones? Waco? Heavens Gate?
What about them?
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. commune or a cult?
I guess I never thought of them as communes, but instead cults. Whatever. I'm not joining!
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. Here a commune that is still around...
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. difference between liberal utopia and this commune
We're not trying to set the clock back 100 years. We are only trying to recreate American society without the right-wing dominance. We are trying to create the America that we all want. We still want our cell phones, high speed internet, DVDs, fantasy football, etc. We just don't want the religious right, Wal-Mart, and unjust wars.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. They are called "Intentional Communities" now
The Farm stopped being a commune back in 1984. This is my favorite intentional community:

www.earthaven.org

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Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Count me in.
I'm sick of what is supposedly partisan debate. The conservative agenda is crap. Gay bashing, wealth stealing, Christian dictating, war mongering... I'll go to any island to get away from this shit. I can't stand it anymore. It's not fun, and it's not interesting, and it's not helpful. I don't want to die in the USA.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. 20,000 Libertarians are moving to New Hampshire to create Libertopia
Why don't we all move to Delaware, and start taking over? Delaware is small, has mild weather, a diverse population, and it's the headquarters of most Fortune 500 corporations, which will give us a bit of immediate leverage :)

What do you think?

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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yeah, I was thinking of that Free State Project
Personally I think Western sparsely populated states like Montana and Wyoming might be better and more doable than Delaware, which is pretty well established and very corporation friendly.

By the way, Delaware is the First State, I doubt they'd let us take them over...
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. A morepractical first step
Take over a state. I think the libertarians are trying this. Imagine what would happen if the dems did the same. We wouldn't want to drain dems from current dem strongholds or closely competative states, but what if we chose a currently republican state with a small population. Utah, maybe.
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Wellong Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We did
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 03:15 PM by Wellong
Take over a state. I think the libertarians are trying this. Imagine what would happen if the dems did the same.

Its called California. Until Arnold was elected that is.

Same with Mass. There are virtually no elected republicans in Mass, outside of the Gov. and there are no elected republicans from Mass in the Senate or House.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. but we'd still be under G.W.'s rule
And if the constitution is abolished as I fully expect, what good would living in Montana-- which though sparsley populated is heavily right-winged-- do??
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. We'd have to start with a few counties,
and fan out from there. Open wind farms and a few other things.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. The "Free State Project" is targeting New Hampshire.
Not like it ain't already "Libertaria" up here, they want to
make it MORE so! Oh well, maybe there are still a few
more public schools they can help bankrupt?

Personally, I'd like to see the rest of New England secede
(or join the Canadian Maritime Provinces). If we convinced
NY and NJ to come with us, we'd certainly have critical mass
for a workable country. Then NH could be its own little
island of Libertarian assholes amidst a very progressive
region.

Atlant
(Sitting in Boston at this moment)
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. I like this idea
and in the coming civil war we may be able to do it. Yes, I think there will be another civil war. I just hope that when it ends, it stays ended. I doubt we can count on the repugs for that.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Of course there would be no welfare...
....until...UHOH, a citizen has a debilitating accident, or .....is stricken with an incurable disease..... or...... gives birth to a chronically ill baby...... or......

What then?

Deportation?

Kanary
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. there wouldn't need to be any from the get-go
But yes, of course a liberal utopia would have entitlement programs for those who are unable to work.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Any functional society...
Any functional society can afford to provide its citizens with
basic food, shelter, education, and health care, and most
western societies, in fact, do choose to do this.

That we choose not to in America merely means that we're
spending our money (in $87B increments) on the wrong priorities.

Atlant
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. If rich people can buy their way in it's hardly a utopia now is it?
$20,000 to get in, or you can have a "wealthy liberal" buy your way in. So your liberal paradise is basically a resort for rich people and their friends. Why another one? There are plenty of islands for the rich and their friends, and the rich are usually above the law anyway.

This is liberal? Normal people have to work and "earn" their way in, but the rich liberals and their friends can buy their way in? Doesn't sound like utopia to me.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. no, indeedy...
..doesn't sound like Utopia.

Besides just being another hideaway for those with $$$$, it does away with the richest part of the US... our diversity.

Whether you want to believe it or not.... those of another race, people who are poor, people who are disabled... in short, all the disenfranchised Have Something To Say Worth Hearing. The biggest problem is they aren't being heard NOW... so we build another country where they won't even exist at all... unless they find a Sugar Daddy? ......which brings up another cute prospect.... poor women selling their souls in order to be "accepted" into the borders of this new country?

No wonder some of us are discouraged and depressed to the point of wanting to just jump off a cliff and get it over with.... When it comes down to it... who really is "Getting It"?

Kanary, one of the disenfranchised who might as well start looking for that cliff...
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. history lesson
First off, read what I wrote about the government work corps. I'm trying to present a realistic vision here, and despite how much you wish it weren't true, money is needed to build a country. The entire purpose of building the liberal utopia would be to get away from those who discriminate on the basis of race, sexual orientation, physiical disability, etc., so your assertion that my idea for a liberal utopia is in some way a racist right-wing plot in secret is truly stupid.

People in China pay more than the equivalent of $20,000 to be shipped in a barrel to the U.S. Immigrants from Europe saved for years to come here.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. $20,000
Is an amount of money that people can come up with. I am twenty-five years old, I earned $30,000 last year, and I could come up with $20,000 in a year or two of saving and extra work. Furthemore, I have my work corps program outlined for those who could not afford.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. you don't get it
Sorry mr liberalcapitalist, I just don't think you get it. $20,000 is not a lot for a college educated middle class young American with no kids, but most working families couldn't just come up with $20k.

But it's not the number anyway - you want to allow rich people to BUY their way in, and the rest of us have to spend time in the "work corp" gulags?

Doesn't sound like utopia to me - it sounds depressingly like most of the world.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. because the rich are needed
The rich are needed for their capital in order to build housing, resturaunts, etc. The working class is needed to provide the labor force. I'm not trying to create a communist Jim Jones society here. I'm trying to reapply the principals of American democracy to a new nation.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. my young friend...
...your heart is in serious need of resucitation.... Your compassion for those you perceive as below you... well, I'm hard pressed to see much difference between that and what we have now.

goddess help us all..

Kanary
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. below me?
I don't consider anyone to be below me! Where are you getting this stuff from??
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. yuck, no way
"The rich are needed for their capital in order to build housing, resturaunts, etc. The working class is needed to provide the labor force."

So the rich will be idle off of their money, while the rest of us bust our ass all day long? Utopia for rich people, is what is sounds like. Why the hell would regular people ever join? How is this even liberal in any way?

Jim Jones is right - sorry, I don't drink the libertarian kool-aid. Have fun on your island with the rich people.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. idle?
Businessmen are idle? Their work is not valuable? I am a small business person. I employ myself, my wife, and one additional employee. Is my work not valuable?

You are looking for a SOCIALIST utopia, not a liberalcapitalist one.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Yes, you are right about one thing
I'm not looking for a liberalcapitalist utopia. :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Do you really not GET IT at all?
Do you not know how many people don't even have money for food? To be able to go to a dr?

I can tell from what you are saying that you really don't think that people like me have any value, and are to be left behind in the dust. Maybe, just maybe, even though I don't have even $1,000, let alone twenty of those, that I'm a person of worth who even might have something of value for YOU?

Being that young, I guess you haven't yet figured it out that life can pull mean tricks on you, and leave you at the mercy of others.

I hope you don't have to figure that out the hard way.

Kanary

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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. you have to be kidding me
First off, I support your candidate Dennis Kucinich. For you to suggest that I don't feel people have any value just because I am so upset at the prospect of George W. Bush being elected next year is absurd.

Secondly, if you would like to compare tax returns, and the tax returns of our parents, I'm fairly confident that you would see that you don't own the concept of being economically disadvantaged. This isn't a contest to see who's dad is bigger or who's family is poorer, but trust me, if you knew where I'm coming from you wouldn't make such assertions.

I fully understand the plight of the poor. I would like to see a way for them to be lifted from their current station. This fantasy "liberal utopia" is in part a solution; and you're acting as if it seeks to maintain the status quo.

Poor person with no job who cannot scrape up enough money to eat can join the liberal utopia work corps, build roads, be paid fairly with a % of his wages being applied to the purchase of his citizenship. Now he has food,housing, etc. Where am I leaving this person in the dust?

I will say that if our country elects George W. Bush, then I will not mind leaving any of its citizens in the dust. If the country can be so stupid, I want nothing to do with it, and anyone who chooses not to leave, that's on them.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. to make it personal...
"Poor person with no job who cannot scrape up enough money to eat can join the liberal utopia work corps, build roads, be paid fairly with a % of his wages being applied to the purchase of his citizenship. Now he has food,housing, etc. Where am I leaving this person in the dust?"

Do you have any concept of how many of us there are who are no longer able to do the physical work you have in mind for our WORKFARE? Do you have any idea how many there are, who NEED a Utopia, who can't consistently make it to work, even nonphysical work, on a day-to-day basis? Thank god for your youth and health, and then look around you and see that others are so blessed.

No, you aren't getting it.... I hope that at some point you will be able to actually hear what some of us are saying to you, and be willing to give it some thought, instead of just defending your lack of understanding of what some people... some valuable people.... live with. Please.

over and out...

Kanary
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. so what would you have us do?
Canada will not grant you citizenship if you are deemed to be a "burden" on the healthcare system.

I am sorry that you are unable to do physical work. You are obviously able to use a computer, correct? Are you able to work a computer job?

Quit acting as if I'm some coldblooded elitist. I'm sorry that you are mad at G.W. but don't use me as your punching bag.

Do you oppose those among us who will leave for Canada if G.W. is elected, leaving others "in the dust"? If so, you want us to stay and suffer? We have compassion. But we also have freedom, for the time being, and we cannot allow ourselves to be held back from leaving the country because we are worried about those who will not come with us.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. No, sir...
...I will die, like many thousand others.

Kanary
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. duplicate
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 04:18 PM by Kanary
...
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. i don't understand
Die? How so? Are you saying you are ill? I'm confused.

Furthermore, I demand an apology for your assertions that I am some sort of coldblooded nazi who hates the poor. That was not a productive exchange.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. you're right...
You Don't Understand.

WE will die because the RW is going to take away all support systems. It's been in all the news. Many People Will Die.

You're also right that it hasn't been productive. It's like trying to talk to Oprah... because she "did it", everyone else can. No matter that she has resources that others don't. I do hope that one day you see that. Not everyone has what you have.

Now, really, it's time to call it quits. Nothing is going anywhere with this. Good luck on your island. You've already voted many of us off.

Kanary
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. you are so wrong about me
But I'm glad I was able to be your villain for the day.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. Well congratulations to you
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 04:33 PM by kayell
Believe it or not, the fact that YOU could come up with the cash is not a good measure of what is feasible for everyone. I sure couldn't, so I guess if I wanted to join your little earthly paradise for the privileged, I'd have to be one of the servants. Well, it seems that I can do that perfectly well right here.

Why is it that seemingly well educated, so called liberals always define what is economically feasible by what they themselves can afford? I suppose the rest of us just aren't trying hard enough, hmm? :grr:
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. servants?
Maybe working with your hands is equivalent to servitude to you, but not me. You peg me for an upper crust liberal, so I will take the same liberty with you and assume that you've probably never worked a day in your life if you would consider working construction the equivalent of slavery.

Again, Chinese pay their life saving's to endure inhumane passage to America for a chance at citizenship. You liberals just want everything handed to you, as it has always been.

How else would you propose this idea? The island would need money to build hospitals, roads, schools, etc., would it not?
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. You liberals?
As opposed to "we liberals".

Maybe someone is showing his true feathers
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. you got me!
Yep, I'm a secret agent for the Bushistas.

What I meant was, oddly enough, "you liberals," as opposed to all of the liberals (including myself) not included in the group designated as "you." "You" being the group of two or three who are hammering me and acting more like socialists than Democrats. This is where the English language is inferior to Spanish and other latin tongues.

If you want to join my liberal utopia, then you must be able to provide some good for the society. Why is that so criminal? Shouldn't all citizens be expected to contribute in one way or another?
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
45. I like your idea myself...
just FYI... :)
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. are you sure I'm not a pro-eugenics, poor-hating covert right wing agent?
Cuz everyone else seems to think so.
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The Commie Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
51. I would like this...
... as long as those crazy Libertarians don't come along. "Capitalist Democracy" is an oxymoron, a country is not truely democratic unless the economy is ran democratically, not by rich bigwigs.
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