Prime Example of Why I Support HOWARD DEAN

[newsguyatl]

he sees through the bullshit... he stands up to the bush* administration... he's not bought and sold by the washington machine... don't you guys get it already?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/22/dean.iraq.ap/index.html

<snip>
Presidential candidate Howard Dean, a staunch opponent of the U.S.-led war against Iraq, shrugged off the deaths of Saddam Hussein's two sons Tuesday, saying "the ends do not justify the means." He scolded Democratic rivals for backing the conflict.

"Why is it that those in Congress have waited until now to question the intelligence, to question the lack of postwar planning, to question the skyrocketing costs of this war?" Dean said. "Why were they not asking these questions and seeking the truth nine months ago, before they voted to give go to war?"

<snip>
"Leadership is standing up to an administration despite the polls. Leadership is asking the right questions at the right time," he said.

Questioned about the deaths of Saddam's sons, Uday and Qusay, in Iraq, Dean dismissed suggestions that it was a victory for the Bush administration.

"It's a victory for the Iraqi people ... but it doesn't have any effect on whether we should or shouldn't have had a war," Dean said. "I think in general the ends do not justify the means."

[blm]

1. ATTENTION ALL CANDIDATES WHO VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTION

HOWARD DEAN HAS DETERMINED THAT YOU CANNOT SPEAK AGAINST BUSH. ONLY HE CAN.

ATTENTION HOWARD DEAN...DENNIS KUCINICH SAID TAKE YOUR SUPPORT OF BIDEN-LUGAR AND PUT IT WHERE THE SUN DON"T.....

(satire)

point being...Dennis Kucinich could make a blow up of the Iraq resolution, the Biden-Lugar bill and a few conflicting statements...but, you know what? He doesn't damn the others to glorify himself, he just makes his points without attacking other Dems. Dean does. And he does it disingenuously. He ignores that Biden-Lugar HE supported would have still resulted in a military action in Iraq.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I respectfully

ask that we not diss each other's candidate. It only heartens the freepers. Instead of insults, please give us instances when YOUR cadidate has spoken on the issues.

Today, I heard Kucinich speak about the amendment to keep media out of the control of one business, so I know he was on the House floor. Did he then, or later, make a statement about the deaths of Sadaam's sons?

[chimpymustgo]

4. Dean is certainly committed to the low road.

Okay, it's worked so far. But his karma is UGLY. He won't last.

[Eloriel]

7. Oh, please, people

I guess I'll have to repost this from another thread:

Kerry keeps his hands "clean" while his staff does the dirty work of hacking away at Dean. Let's not pretend that the Kerry campaign is blameless here, or in any way innocent. You watch as things progress. Dean is an increasingly serious threat to Kerry -- and for good reason -- Kerry won't take that laying down. He hasn't so far, and he will be even less likely to in the future.

Kerry's no saint.

Eloriel

[haymaker]

8. What the fuck are you talking about?

Funny, it has always been the Repukes that ALWAYS scream that the Dems are doing EXACTLY what they are doing. Et tu, mon ami, et tu?

[Cha]

15. Yes! Dean will "last" and why don't you go start a John Edwards

thread or something!

[madfloridian]

50. Chimpy is still hopping in on Dean threads to dis him.

Tsk tsk, such a shame.

:eyes:

[killbotfactory]

36. Biden Lugar...

Would have forced Bush to work through the UN, or else present evidence that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US to authorize military action and only for the purposes of disarming Saddam.

It is completely consistent with Dean's stance on Iraq.

[blm]

WELL, DUH...

Bush "technically" speaking did just that. Just enough countries on board to claim it was a "multilateral" force. Just enough "evidence" presented to the UN to fulfill their obligation. No matter what bill...Bush was going in.

[killbotfactory]

45. Bush never presented evidence that Iraq was a threat to the US

He presented "evidence" that Iraq was not cooperating fully with UN inspection teams.

Dean has always maintained that there was no evidence that Iraq was a threat to the US, even after Powell's presentation which Kerry found convincing.

[blm]

48. You DON'T get it?

Bush would have scrounged up the MINIMUM requirement of ANY bill that passed. He would squeak by with any technicality because the press was allowing it and was complicit in beating the war drums.

[killbotfactory]

49. And Dean would have said no to war...

In this completely hypothetical alternate reality.

[blm]

52. No..if Biden-Lugar had passed....

he would be saying whatever he had to get the angle on it, because that's what Dean does.

[TheBigGuy]

2. And this is why I DONT like Dean that much:

Why is it that those in Congress have waited until now to question the intelligence, to question the lack of postwar planning, to question the skyrocketing costs of this war?" Dean said. "Why were they not asking these questions and seeking the truth nine months ago, before they voted to give go to war?"

Once again Dean is running against the Congressional Democratic Party, not against George Bush.

I recall on a now-lost thread someone posted Kerrys responses to Judy Woodruff while being interviewed. Judy was trying to bait him with some remarks Dean made, and Kerry brushed her off with the comment "Thats just politics", and refocused on Bush.

IMHO, Kerrys approach was the right one,,,,to focus on Bush and his mishandling of the diplomacy, war, and postwar situation.

Robert Reich pretty much says the same thing here, in his "Eye on the Prize" article on how the Democrats should be conducting their campaing:

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/7/reich-r.html

"So here's my advice to activists: Don't get so emotionally invested in any particular primary candidate that you lose the psychological capacity to be enthusiastic about whomever emerges as the Democratic candidate nine months from now. Remember, the overriding goal is to unseat W.

When you hear a Democratic primary candidate criticize or demean a primary opponent, don't just sit there: Make a phone call and send a letter or an e-mail to that candidate expressing outrage.

Most importantly, don't sink too much of your time, energy and money into primary fights. Remember that the real fight begins next spring. It will take everything you have.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. You made some good points

We need to make sure ALL candidates focus on Bush and his crimes.

[haymaker]

12. If the Dems want to win,

some of them are going to have to be hoisted up on their own petard. The victory is attainable ONLY if there is massive voter turn out. That will only happen if the vaseline lovers in the Dem party get slapped down.

The fucking cowards have done nothing but look out for their own re-election and bent the fuck over fro the war-mongers. Fucking cowards.

[TheBigGuy]

18. I lose more respect for the Dean crowd daily.

Its amazing the kind of people he has supporting him.

[newsguyatl]

23. yeah

we're aggressive, mad and passionate... and don't take shit from folks like you... if you've lost so much respect for him and his supporters, why don't you get out of this thread...

[Cha]

27. GO NEWSGUY!! Yeah! We don't take Shit is Right!

:toast:

[TheBigGuy]

32. The lack of reasoned discourse is telling.

I post an article on what I see as a flaw in Deans campaign strategy, looking at it from a larger Democratic perspective on defeating Bush, and link to an article by Robert Reich, that supports my position, and I am get flamed.

This is just nuts.

[haymaker]

38. Oh whoa, oh whoa

is me.

[PassingFair]

65. Na na na na boo boo....

Why don't you go play on Kerry's playground? There are far fewer kids there... You won't have to share the teetertotter with anyone but Kerry as he seesaws back and forth.

[TheBigGuy]

28. I didn't say him...

...his foulmouth supporters on this thread.

[tjdee]

71. Oh, but won't you vote for Dean in the general?

What kind of attitude is that?
"We don't take shit from folks like you"?

As in, OTHER DEMOCRATS whose votes you'd like to have, especially if Dean wins the primary?

[ldf]

26. Its amazing the kind of people he has supporting him

why, thank you!

[haymaker]

29. The pantywastes you support

couldn't sell a piece of ass on a troop ship. They are cowards. Political cowards. They refused to stand up to an all time stupid idea to rush into Iraq and now we are supposed to say "we understand, you were just being patriotic." Bullshit. They were cowards who did not lead their constiuents, they cowered behind an idiocy.

You follow those little men all you want. Be careful not to step on them.

[TheBigGuy]

35. Actually im undecided.

So I really wouldn't make any presumptions as to who I support or don't support If I where you.

[Cha]

37. Coming from you ...I am flattered!

[sfecap]

39. I guess you forget that these candidates are running

*against* each other for the nomination. The nice guy shit won't cut it.

The reason Dems lose is they seem to be too worried to offend someone with their viewpoints. Those days are over.

Dean isn't afraid to call it like it is. Kerry is a typical politician who speaks one thing and votes another. It isn't Dean's fault, it's Kerrys. He cast his vote and now he's making lame excuses. Gephart, Lieberman, showed where they stood at the photo op in the Rose Garden...

If you don't like Dean, fine. Don't vote for him, but attacking Deans supporters just shows how truly frightened people are of a candidate who won't roll over and play politics as usual.

Lead or get out of the way.

[TheBigGuy]

42. I dont think you see my point here.

Im not really focused on the war resolution and the politics around it.

Im more focused on whats happening with Bush right now. He is on the ropes, and Its good that Kerry, Biden, and the other "pro war" Democrats are being critical of him.

They may be self-serving reasons for doing this, but the overall message is a unified critique of Bush.

I also recognize there is contest going on here between the candidates. However, I think It does make sense that the candidates focus on defeating Bush. I am noticing that the media seems to be trying to egg on diputes betweent the candidates, to make a "story" of a divisve primary fight. I noticed this at the SC debate, and I noticed it in Woodruffs questioon to Kerry.

So I think that rather focus on divisions withing the Democratic Party the candidates should present their positions as different alternatives to Bush, rather than strongly attack each other so as to deliver a knockout blow.

If you are familiar with game theory this situation is similar to the scenario known as prisoners dilemma.

Also, i think imputing motives or paranoia like in the following isnt helpful:

If you don't like Dean, fine. Don't vote for him, but attacking Deans supporters just shows how truly frightened people are of a candidate who won't roll over and play politics as usual.

My comments about some of the rude posts here are not about fear of a candidate who I may end up voting for, they are comments about rude posters. Nothing more.

[sfecap]

47. Howard Dean is certainly focused on defeating bush*

and he is running against the others. Let's face it, they all have different ideas as to how they will win the nomination and the Presidency.

Frankly I find the criticism of Dean's supporters a bit puzzling. I would think that we in this party would be ecstatic at the fact that a candidate has energized a very large group of voters. Especially from the ranks who have felt left out, ignored, or who just never cared before this. I meet people all the time who are enthused not only for the candidate but for the fact that they are feeling empowered again, and want to participate in the process...people who truly want to change the direction of our country.

Perhaps the discussions here do get a bit over the top. I have pretty much stayed out of them until lately, when the Dean bashing just got to be too much.

Dean has been criticizing * from day one. He was/is usually the first out with statements, and the others follow. He has aggressively said the things that need to be said against the * Iraq policies. If that is a bad thing, and Dean's just too "mean", and he's not nice to the other candidates, then we might as well all stay home in 2004.

We will NOT beat Rove by being nice guys. Those days are over. We need toughness, courage, determination, clarity, and the ability to motivate voters. Howard Dean has what it takes, and he is very right about one thing....WE have the power.

WE damn well better use it.

[Eloriel]

54. Dean capitalizing on "Bush on the ropes"

If that's your concern, you might want to actually take a look at what Dean is saying:

http://www.blogforamerica.com/
There is No Place in Government for Those Who Misled the American People
Portsmouth, NH--Howard Dean released the following statement today:

"Last week, when the nation was focused on the sixteen words included in the President's State of the Union address, I said that the issue raised sixteen important questions about the Iraq matter. Today, as more senior officials in the Bush White House have taken responsibility for including the discredited Niger uranium sentence in the President's State of the Union address, we are one step closer to understanding how those sixteen words came to be. But the sixteen questions still remain unanswered.

"I call on those who misled the President to resign immediately. It is unacceptable for anyone who misled the President on an issue as significant as a rationale for war to continue to retain a post in government. What is clear is that this President and his Administration misled the American people about the cause for war and did so in the solemn forum of the State of the Union address. Not only have the lives of many U.S. service men and women been lost as a result of that questionable rush to war, but the Administration has been allowed to establish a dangerous precedent for unilateral, preemptive war at the President's sole discretion.

"It remains to be seen whether the President himself was misled, whether those around him intentionally kept the information from him, or whether the President knowingly misled the American people. I sincerely hope that the latter is not the case. We do know this: officials in the Vice President's office, the Defense Department, the State Department and the White House had reason to know that there were significant doubts not only about the Niger evidence, but about many elements of the case for war.

"Let me reiterate what I have said now many times before: those who included this faulty information in the President's address know who they are and should resign immediately. There is no place for them in a government that prizes honor and integrity.

"Furthermore, I urge the White House to answer the sixteen questions I presented last week so that the American people can learn the truth and can retain confidence in their government. Finally, because the story line continues to change from day to day on this matter, I once again call for an independent, bipartisan commission to investigate these serious allegations."

Add your name to the petition demanding that Bush answer the 16 questions by clicking here. The 16 questions have also been published at Common Dreams.

--

And have you forgotten his 16 Queestions from MONDAY? -
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0721-01.htm

I won't quote them all, go take a look.

I don't mind that people don't like Dean. What I mind is the lies and distortions some people (Kerry supporters mostly) are putting out about him (and this doesn't IMO apply to you, BigGuy), and people saying what they THINK is true of Dean without actually knowing (and sadly this does seem to apply to you).

Eloriel

[TheBigGuy]

58. Yes, Eloriel, Dean has done well, here.

The quote you posted and the linked 16 questions are good...Dean is doing a good job here, contributing to th chorus of questions and opposition.

My critique of Dean was that he was not attacking Bush, but was directed to the quote posted in the thread header:

"Why is it that those in Congress have waited until now to question the intelligence, to question the lack of postwar planning, to question the skyrocketing costs of this war?" Dean said. "Why were they not asking these questions and seeking the truth nine months ago, before they voted to give go to war?"....
"Leadership is standing up to an administration despite the polls. Leadership is asking the right questions at the right time," he said.

This I felt was directed at the Congressional Democrats, and I felt it was divisive and unecessary (although such words do energize his supporters, as proven by this very thread).

However, based on your post downthread perhaps I have unrealistic expectations about this primary....my hope was that the Democrats would follow the advice in the Robert Riech artilce I linked to above...probably not a realistic expectation once the fight is really joined.

I was also thinkng about Ronald Reagans (I think) cardindal rule for Republicans..that thou shalt not speak ill of other Republicans. Democrats dont really follow that too much.

Right now I'm fairly neutral on the candidates, so I'm just offering this as an observation...not trying to 'bash Dean" or support Kerry or anything..

[ScreamingMeemie]

61. No, just seemingly trying to bash a stereotype of Dean supporters

Nuff said.

[ScreamingMeemie]

59. Yeah, like me an average everyday wife and mother who sees through

the B.S. and is supporting Mr. Dean, who is finally willing to stand up for my kids, since no one else will...

Peace.

[DagmarK]

60. Come on BigGuy.........

You're the one who posted that incredible post claiming that you worked in some capacity for defense contracts and so it is in your best interest to vote for Bush next time. You sounded pretty darned serious about it.

I think you mentioned that your partner does as well. Forgive my memory lapse. But the impression you left is firmly etched in my mind.

So......whatever YOU say about any of the dem candidates or their supporters doesn't hold any water.

[Cha]

25. YEAH! YOU GO HAYMAKER!! I SEE IT!!

:kick:

[Rooktoven]

67. If the Dems want to win

they will have learn that:

A) Voting to allow the use of troops in the event of a danger does not necessarily correspond to using said troops in an irresponsible manner.

B) The argument both for all Dems on both sides of the resolution is "Right War, wrong reason"

C) Grudges among the left contributed to the usurpation we now suffer under. Those on the extreme liberal end of the party will have to learn that compromise and half a loaf is better than none. Those in the center had best remember the Truman quote about a Republican and a Democrat who acts Republican.


p.s. Note to Ralph N.-- if you really wanna shake things up, run for Governor of California..

[Mike_from_NoVa]

14. Dean is NOT running "against"

Dean is running TOWARD those of us who have been let down by Congressional Democrat pantywaists who wouldn't stand up for what they knew was right.

He is saying "if you feel like they let you down, vote for me."

In other words, if you feel like those congressdoggies rolled over and showed the snarly bush dogs their bellies, back a doggie who's going to stand up and fight. Even if he is a yappy terrier, this dog ain't backing down. He's this year's Howard Beale - mad as hell and not going to take it any more.

That's the key to his current popularity, IMO.

[TheBigGuy]

24. Well, since he already HAS y'all....

Maybe he can start focusing on Bush, not on setting up the party for a divisive primary fight.

Unless he needs to occasionally throw more red meat to his followers to keep them happy and behind him.

[Cha]

30. Yeah, right ...whatever.

[SweetZombieJesus]

33. Please, don't let FACTS get in the way of your Dean bashing

Noooo, Dean NEVER says anything bad about Bush, just the Dems. He didn't recently post 16 questions for him on the WMD lies, those were a figment of my imagination, right?

Face it Dean bashers, with each passing day your arguments grow more and more weak and desperate. You're flailing around like mad trying to find some magical silver bullet talking point to hit him with, but I've got news for you: It doesn't exist. Dean is the real deal, and Kerry is a pandering concubine to the BFEE by virtue of his war vote. If I, as a college dropout liquor store clerk can figure out on my own that Bush is lying through his fucking teeth, why can't G.I. John? He wasn't misled, he buried his fucking head in the sand, and YOU can't handle that. Stop projecting the faults of your candidates onto Dean.

[Cha]

46. You don't write like a "college dropout"! That was an amazing

post; so descriptive and dead on while making me laugh at the same time!

[Eloriel]

44. He may have US, but he doesn't have the nomination yet

And AFAIC, every time he calls the spineless Congressional Dems on their complicity with this war and every other act of cowardice they've engaged in, it only serves to strengthen the party.

Again and again Dean has provided not only cover for these wimps, but talking points and slogans they've eagerly apprpriated for themselves -- and sound pretty hollow doing it, I might add.

And as for Kerry -- he keeps his hands "clean" while his staff does the dirty work of hacking away at Dean. Although there was a definite jab at Dean in his Woodruff interview yesterday.

Let's not pretend that the Kerry campaign is blameless here, or in any way innocent. You watch as things progress. Dean is an increasingly serious threat to Kerry -- and for good reason -- Kerry won't take that laying down. He hasn't so far, and he will be even less likely to in the future.

Kerry's no saint and from what I've seen, his campaign will be the one fighting dirty. Dean is at least dealing in truth. It may not be FLATTERING truth, but it's the truth.

Eloriel

[TheBigGuy]

Yeah I am worried about that....

Let's not pretend that the Kerry campaign is blameless here, or in any way innocent. You watch as things progress. Dean is an increasingly serious threat to Kerry -- and for good reason -- Kerry won't take that laying down. He hasn't so far, and he will be even less likely to in the future.
Kerry's no saint and from what I've seen, his campaign will be the one fighting dirty


That we have a real knife fight in the primarys. If what you say comes to pass it could be a real turn-off.

[Eloriel]

55. I dunno. Maybe you've never actually watched primaries unfold

on either side. They can be very tough.

The only time I can think of where the primary candidates had a lovefest was in FL between McBride, Reno and that very attractive 3rd candidate (wish I remembered him name -- I actually liked him best). It was quite lovely to see, during that debate, but it wasn't exactly decisive or energizing. I loved it while I watched it, but in retrospect I was left feeling that none of them quite had the fight required to take on the big guns of the GOP.

I'm sorry that so many DUers seem to think that everything should be sweetness and light between candidates in the primaries, because it's just not the way things are. It's just NOT going to happen this year either. MY hope is that there'll be no dirty tricks among the Dems, but as I said, if any of that happens it's likely to come from the Kerry camp. I read that he has already sent people to VT to investigate whether either of the Drs. Dean had ever done any abortions.

There's actually an advantage in slugging it out in the primaries. Whoever wins will have gotten a LOT smarter and therefore more ready to face the GOP juggernaut.

So, be prepared to get turned off, I guess. Or perhaps you just oughtn't watch until the nomination is secured.

Eloriel

[TheBigGuy]

56. Thanks for the advice.

So, be prepared to get turned off, I guess. Or perhaps you just oughtn't watch until the nomination is secured.

...I appreciate your concern.

[Cha]

57. The "Third Man" was Daryl Jones! I like him, too. He is

a very ariticulate intelligent guy!

[Nazgul35]

64. except.....

in the same statement he begins by attacking Bush....so he's an equal opportunity disser.....please people...read the original sources and not the carefully edited quotes from every and all candidates....too many people have agendas here and it's not always easy to figure out what they are...

[newsguyatl]

6. haha

funny to hear you saintly folks feigning the "play it nice" game saying dean shouldn't criticize his opponents... but i'll be damned if YOU all aren't armed to the teeth (or so you think) with ammunition yourselves against dean...

face it, those who voted for the resolution have NO excuses... it's as simple as that... you can say dean is giving them hell for that, and i'd say to you --> you're damn right! and rightly so!

your point?

on edit: the usual suspects bashing... "big" surprise...

[wtmusic]

9. Agree

Ever since Kerry's war support became a liability Kerry supporters have been the ones crying for unity among Democrats...

Forget it. Kerry's a liability to Democratic leadership of this country, and he proved it by voting for the war.

[newsguyatl]

13. yeah

i can sense the anger from the anti-dean folks in this thread already... typical response/reaction when the truth hurts and you have nothing to counter...

when speaking of the war, dr. dean says it clearly, "the ends don't justify the means."

I'M not fooled by today's events...I'M not fooled with the one-liner "the iraqis are liberated"... I'M not fooled by the supposed WMD's...


and Dean's not either.

[chimpymustgo]

11. Dean didn't have to vote. He's just yelling at everybody

from his cushy little perch in Vermont - on what he woulda coulda shoulda.

I have lost all patience and respect for him. I'm almost at the Anybody But Dean point.

I don't like his style, and I don't think the majority of the electorate will. Even watching his vile attacks (okay he got on tv!), he just looked so UNLIKEABLE, about to explode. That is not going to fly, thank goodness.

Give me a candidate with some ideas and optimism.

[haymaker]

16. Kuchinic and Graham did

and they didn't bend over. What a bunch of cowards.

[TheBigGuy]

20. I also notice they are running against Bush.

They are very much focused on the Bush administration, not on other Democrats. They are focused on winning the White House and pushing their own policy, not scoring points in an intraparty fight.

[haymaker]

34. So your petty little point about Dean

really doesn't mean anything. Dean came out against the war, before the war. And great for Kuchinic and Graham, not just for standing up to the phony rush to war, but for running for Pres. too.

[DagmarK]

62. Yeah, the dem senatorial candidates HAVE to focus on Bush

They sure the hell can't focus on their records as DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!!

I give them credit for sticking together on that one.....oh yes I do. and it isn't just the their waiver of the constitutional DUTY for the senate to declare war (and that's what that vote was: a duty imposed on them by our constitution! Outlandish!)......it is their entire collective crappy ass record that they don't dare use as PROOF of their worthiness for the highest office. Why? Because if they went out and campaigned against their own senatorial dem candidates (and geppie, for that matter), they would ALL be outing each other for the sorry sacks of turncoat shits they are.

So.........gee.......what do they do?

1. attack the one dem candidate who has not served in the Congress;

2. at times, attack bush.

It's all they've got. And I have no doubt in my mind that the dem senators ahve a pack of little wolves infiltrating this board and any other democratic stronghold to deface DEAN. Bush is no threat -- look at where we are right now! LOL DEAN......he's a threat.

And if any of those dem senate candidates had a record worth touting.........you can bet your sweet ass that they would be pouncing like barracudas on the other dem senator candidates. that's the way it has always been....... So, the ONLY prez candidate who can do that who would be telling the TRUTH is Dean.

Since when did politics become a tea party? Oh.......you mean when your candidate doesn't have a chance, then everyone is supposed to be nice to the other dems?

Might I remind you of the #1 reason we see the most outlandish bills pass right on through the Senate.....which is a green light for the republican-controlled house to go for broke as well? it's because we lost the fucking senate majority in Oct. 2002.

How's about the friggin first 1.3 trillion taxcut in 2001? The budget had to get through the friggin democratic-controlled senate to get to Bush's greedy little hands to sign.

Are these not the DEMOCRATIC PARTY's fault??????????????????? the democratic party IS most definitely responsible for soooooooo many horrible things.

GOOD GOD.............

[Eloriel]

70. WELL said. n/t

.

[Cha]

22. Good! I'm Glad "Dean is yelling at everybody" since

my voice wasn't heard in Washington!

And your criticisms don't FLY because you hated Dean before this. In fact you always have your axe ready for Dean...so this is just one more axe job by chimpymustgo!

:kick:

[sfecap]

41. Perhaps you'd be more suited to a candidate like Daschle...

...he speaks softly and gets his ass kicked daily. :-)

(But he's really, really, a nice soft spoken, weak, spineless guy. Not offensive at all!)

{sarcasm mode off}

[Eloriel]

69. You don't want ideas and optimism -- you couldn't possibly

if you DID, and if you were honest about it (with yourself, first and foremost), you'd want Dean.

It's as simple as that. You either have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about Dean, or you do and prefer to lie about him.

He's got ideas galore, and optimism galore. But he's certainly not afraid to point out what -- and WHO -- is wrong.

He is doing a great service for the party AND the nation.

Otherwise, that famous quote (mangled by me) will hold true: any more victories like this and we'll be completely undone. NO MORE REPUG LITES. Dean has utterly spoiled me. So much so that Kerry looks increasingly old, tired, shopworn and useless.

Eloriel

[TheBigGuy]

17. are you more interested in defeating Bush or the Democrats?

Do you prefer that Dean focus more on taking on the Congressional Democrats who voted for the relevant resolutions? Do you prefer that be a central focus of his campaign, to run against a wing of the Democratic party?

Do you prefer a divisive and bitter primary fight?

Yes or No?

[newsguyatl]

19. i'm interested in

defeating bush* AND the failed democratic establishment in washington... they go hand in hand my friend...

[TheBigGuy]

21. so which is more important?

prioritize:

defeating Bush

defeating the "failed Democratic establishment"

Which is more important..which comes first?

[sfecap]

40. This is what is important:

1. Bypassing the failed Democratic establishment. (They are totally ineffective and weak.)

2. Beating Bush.

[TheBigGuy]

43. So beating Bush is #2, for you.

Thanks for the clarification.

[sfecap]

51. Nope, you don't get it...

We won't beat bush with a failed Democratic leadership using the same lame plan they used in 2002.

They are no longer relevant.

[Sterling]

53. I want to defeat Bush and SOME Dems

Anyone who voted for the war regardless of party should retire from politics now.

Right now is the correct time to target Dems who supported Bush's war. Dean offers an alternative to the PNAC dems and a comprimise between the Left and Right wings of the Democratic party.

I can't see what the problem is here. Dean is the right man at the right time for the party. The writing is on the wall. It's Dean or Green in 04. The Dems can either get with Dean or become irrelivant.

[Rooktoven]

68. Dean or Green.... Arrrgggghh

Regardless of how let down you feel by any democrat's vote on the issue, you have to remember the ultimate responsibility for the war lies with Bush.

If your vote for "idealogical purity" helps Bush and friends win again, congratulations, you've just helped kill me more people in unnecessary wars.

Please people. It may get mean, but perhaps we should remember the higher prize. Perhaps we should place more value on who best attacks dubya, not a fellow democrat.

p.s. ralph-- run for Governor in CA if you want to stir things up.

[DagmarK]

63. biggguy.......life is not single-faceted.......sorry to burst your bubble.

There are TWO campaigns going on simultaneously.

1. Against Bush for president in 16 months

2. Dems against each other for the primary nomination.

Politics are dirty. But you know what? Dean doesn't make shit up. He's telling the truth. He's addressing the very reason the dems lost the senate in october. Thank fucking god for that! No matter WHO the dem nominee is......at least the dirty laundry of the dem congress has come out.....so the friggin voters can observe WHICH dems are willing to change the crappy, spineless voting activities of the party.

they are being forced to show what they are willing to stand for -- to show their colors. This is because we have Dean in the primary race. You should be more grateful. I would have never thought Geppie would continue to be the bush-lite that he is. But it's darned good to know that!!! Same with Lieberman.

Let's see......we have learned MUCH valuable information about the dem candidates that were it not for Dean, we would not know.

Looks like Graham is willing to turn the corner from spinelessness.

Kucinich is willing to do so.

Geppie......No WAY is he changing his ways.

Lieberman -- that's a no brainer -- he ain't going to be a real dem EVER! Even if it costs him the nomination (and I am sure it will).

Kerry: well......I don't know.......I can't yet decide how much of a spine he might get were he to become president. But it's favorable as to him.

ALSO.....these debates about the performance of the dems serves as DUE NOTICE to ALL DEMS everywhere that they had better get their butts together and start being the dems we elected to represent us OR ELSE.......people like Dean are going to take their precious lobbyist-padded seats in Congress.

Were it not for Dean...NONE of this crap would be on the table. Sure, we'd have Graham and Kucinich piping in here and there, but they wouldn't be as fierce as they are, I'd bet.

Dean is reforming the friggin democratic party, for god's sakes. And it's about damn time.

[Cha]

10. Thanks for this report, newsguyatl...I "get it" just fine!!

:kick:




This is what I'm talking about ..."Leadership is standing up to an administration despite the polls. Leadership is asking the right questions at the right time," he said .. Dean said I want a Leader and Dean is talking about Leadership!

[newsguyatl]

31. i dunno, perhaps chimpy and the big guy

are right... dean's style will never work... he'll be gone in a month or two...

guess that's why he's now #1 pick in recent california poll http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6356406.htm

[Eloriel]

66. Ain't it grand?

Love it, love it, love it!

Eloriel

[whirlygigspin]

72. thank you!

It may seem strange, but I appreciate critical posters of Dean.

Chimpymustgo rightly points out that negative attacks turn him off
and the Dean team do need to work harder at putting out
the positive vision that Dr.Dean has for the party & the nation.

Just remember, we need a tough fighter to win this race.
This week just proved that even more so.

Bushco. are a group of vengeful, hatefilled power freaks and they need to have their asses kicked, for the benefit of the nation.