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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:00 PM
Original message
A letter from an unknown freeper to me
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:09 PM by Woodstock
Note: this letter was received in response to some stuff I've been writing on a website - my comments are in {...} - I haven't written him back - what is the use?

You're right about one thing; power comes from the point of a gun.

{I never said anything remotely like this. Power comes from winning over people's hearts and minds - something that doesn't happen at the point of a gun.}

But anything else you have to say is just more encouragement to the terrorists who see the US as a threat to their own power.

{What power? We hold all the cards. That is no reason for us to go about empire building because of it.}

The more people like you encourage them, the more they will continue to kill American and British troops.

{The more they know we are all not like Bush, the less they will hate all Americans.}

How far do you think they would have gotten at this point if instead of offering them every possible bit of encouragement, you had begun early on by stating that the US was resolute and determined to free the Iraqi people from their terror?

{LIE - Bush never said this was about liberating the Iraqi people - why didn't he go to Liberia, then? Rawanda? He said there was an imminent threat.}

By continuing to attack the US and President Bush you are saying to the Islamic militants that if they can only keep up their resistance long enough for you (the Democrats) to get rid of the Republicans in the White house, then they will have won another victory over America just like you (and they) did in Mogadishu and Viet Nam.

{I've read it twice and still can't make any sense out of what he was trying to say.}

You, not President Bush, are the ones who are now getting our troops killed.

{Yes, little old me, writing in defense of the troops - not the guy with all the wealth and power, who controls all three branches of government.}

You seem to have forgotten that it was these same fanatics that attacked the World Trade Center and killed nearly 6,000 Americans BEFORE we launched our preemptive strike against them.

{LIE: Bush and Rumsfled and Rice have said (after misleading the American people) that there is no tie between Saddam & 9/11. And Saddam's was a secular state, so if you want to talk about "fanatics" you can look elsewhere in the mideast - or maybe right there in Texas - better yet, just look in the mirror.}

I am not saying that political debate should not occur or that you should not be allowed to disagree with the current occupants of the White House. Politics in America will always demand debate and discussion of the way we run this country.

{Nice to know you've got one thing right.}

However apparently these Islamic terrorists understand American politics much better than you do. Ask yourself one simple question, who do you think Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin-Ladin are voting for, George Bush or Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy?

{We don't know who they are voting for, because we don't know where they are. Bush never found them. They are at large. He gave up looking for one, and let the other get away due to poor planning.}

If you’re smart enough to figure that one out (which I doubt) perhaps you will figure out how to keep your political debates and discussions limited to financial issues or Medicare and stop getting our troops killed by encouraging terrorists.

{Pretty funny coming from someone who got all their information from Bush's press secretary. And from someone who thinks Saddam brought down the WTC.}


name withheld to protect the idiot's privacy
Groesbeck, Texas.

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Texas is the Bavaria of Imperial Amerika
Seat and home of the Fascist/Imperial haters of Liberal Democracy.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. you live in Texas too?
It is far worse than that.
If Texas is the Bavaria of Imperial Amerika then Dallas is the power seat of all that is evil. I know, I live in Dallas.
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Northwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I, too, live in Dallas
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:14 PM by Northwind
There is a large and vibrant liberal population here. Don't be fooled by the hype.

And if you think Dallas is the heart of all evil, you've never been to Houston.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. where are these people?
Are they the ones that live near all the jerks with the H2s and the "This isn't the only time God has chosen to speak through a Bush" bumper sticker bearers? If there is a healthy liberal base in this town, they must not live on the North side of Dallas.

All I ever see is pro-Bush, rah-rah neo-con BS day and night.
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tex46 Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. You're right, there
The Plano, Richardson, McKinney corridor is about as right wing as it gets.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. any place that...
Any city that has "dry" areas every 5 miles is about as right-wing as they come. It pisses me off to no end that I gotta drive out of my way from my standard groucery store just to buy WINE! We are not talking about hard liqour here. WINE!!!

I am so ready to blow this shit-hole of a town and go ANYWHERE else.
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tex46 Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I feel your pain
I went to school in Sherman. I know the hard knocks of trying to find booze without having to burn half a tank of gas to get there. I once tried to order something off of evineyards.com (or something like that) and they wouldn't even ship it to me!
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. I live on the North side of Dallas..
As North as it gets being off of spring valley...

So...there...

:)

:hi:
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TEXASYANKEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Here, here.
I work in Dallas but live in a suburb to the east. The folks I come in contact with are, while maybe not as liberal as me, they certainly are not Bush-lovers.

Besides, LIBERALTEXAN lives here and there's not a nicer person nor a more devoted Democrat than that nice lady. So Dallas ain't so bad!
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tex46 Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Beggin your pardon
But Texas ain't all bad. We've got Austin, some great universities (some really creepy, fundy ones too), and some great Texas Dems.


And fuckin-A, we've got Willie.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. beg away
I have lived in this state my entire life.
I grew up in San Antonio.
In college, I partied in Austin.
Neither were too bad.

And then there is Dallas, to quote the holy trilogy "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."
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Captain Sunshine Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. What do you expect?
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 06:09 PM by Captain Sunshine
Our fair Dallas is the gilded buckle of the Bible Belt, after all. Robert Tilton, anybody?

I'm one of the very few liberal teachers at my school. Another teacher has a sticker on his car that says, "Anybody but Bush 2004," on which some unknown beetle-browed miscreant wrote, "I AM AN ASSHOLE."

Truer words were never spoken.

And I'll throw real money that he didn't get it.

CS

Edited for spelling
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tex46 Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I once saw a liberal bumper sticker
in my fair town. It said "Peace, Pride & Prosperity. Vote Democratic." It had yet to be defaced. I left a little note under the windshield wiper identifying myself as the other Dem in town.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. 6000?
Did you mis-type that or did he?
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. not sure what you mean
I copied his letter intact - just added my comments in between.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The death toll from the WTC
wasn't 6000, which is what he seems to be implying.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. You should also ask this
two-celled amoeba whether or not he thinks that Shrub's macho challenge of "bring 'em on" has anything to do with the troops being killed daily!!! I'd really like to hear his spin on how that was also the Dems fault!
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Tell him that chasing around Iraq isn't going to save us.
I don't know why it isn't painfully obvious to every pundit, member of Congress, and member of the public, but chasing around Iraq and getting scores of people killed is not going to stop the next Mohamed Atta or Timothy McVeigh. I'm sorry, but there you have it.

I know you probably shouldn't engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person, but you might as well engage in a sane recitation of the facts. If he/she choooses to ignore them, it's his/her fault. You did your best.

The administration never bothered to finish the job in Afghanistan, where poor Karzai can't do much of anything because the bulk of the country is in the grip of warlords, who are not exactly the most reliable bunch on the block.

And remind this dude that Republicans like Warren Rudman have pointed out that the administration hasn't bothered to make the investment in first responders and so forth that we're going to need if there's another terrorist attack.

And note that the administration is cutting the hell out of community policing, which is another bad move for the long term.

Oh, any one of us could go on for days. But you can point out the practical realities of the situation and leave him/her to stew in whatever juices (or bile) there may be.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. didn't Bush repetedly say in the 2000 campaign...
that our military was weak and ineffective, and several divisions were not ready for duty...?

I wonder what kind of encouragement THAT gave to al Qaeda...

:shrug:
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. When have we tried "encouragement" ever?
How far do you think they would have gotten at this point if instead of offering them every possible bit of encouragement, you had begun early on by stating that the US was resolute and determined to free the Iraqi people from their terror?

I thought that "we" did state that the US was resolute and determined to free the Iraqi people... or at least the pResident said that.

Years of sanctions together with bombings from time to time, a no-fly zone, and a bunch of UN inspectors barging in anywhere that they wanted was encouragement?

So has it worked?

Now, I wonder when we will try diplomacy and negotiations, maybe through the UN or maybe as equal partners. That might turn out a little different, but who knows? This country has never once tried that in its entire history. Frankly, I'm curious to see what would happen if just once we tried something different.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. He has a point, I am certain that Terrorists are making plans
for their next attack based on details, attitudes, and opinions found in liberal blogs.

:eyes:
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. Jesus, what an idiot...
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:20 PM by RandomKoolzip
I am not saying that political debate should not occur or that you should not be allowed to disagree with the current occupants of the White House. Politics in America will always demand debate and discussion of the way we run this country. However apparently these Islamic terrorists understand American politics much better than you do. Ask yourself one simple question, who do you think Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin-Ladin are voting for, George Bush or Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy?:

A:Wow, I had no idea Bin Laden or Hussein could vote for American politicians! Are those oversees absentee ballots we're talking about?

How far do you think they would have gotten at this point if instead of offering them every possible bit of encouragement, you had begun early on by stating that the US was resolute and determined to free the Iraqi people from their terror?

A.Because "early on," the war was about WMD's, not the "liberation of Iraq."


If you’re smart enough to figure that one out (which I doubt) perhaps you will figure out how to keep your political debates and discussions limited to financial issues or Medicare and stop getting our troops killed by encouraging terrorists.

A:Ah, I'm sorry, let me consult the Republican-approved list of acceptable Issues to discuss again...okay: Welfare, let's talk about welfare....

You seem to have forgotten that it was these same fanatics that attacked the World Trade Center and killed nearly 6,000 Americans BEFORE we launched our preemptive strike against them.

A:Last I heard, the death toll was about 3500. And not all of them were Americans. And "these same fanatics" were killed in the very same explosion which killed the Americans. Iraq is a whole other country. And the terrorist attack happened "before" a "pre-emptive strike?!?" Holy cow, an English professor, a logician, and anyone with a basic grasp of cause and effect relationships could have a hernia un-twisting that little gem! "Hey, honey, go get me a beer!" "You drank them all." "Well, bring me the empty bottles and I'll drink what's not in them!" Typical of the conversations taking place around your house?


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Captain Sunshine Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. My favorite reply...
is to ask them if Senator Taft was a traitor and provided aid and comfort to the Japanese. If they have any idea who he is, the quote below tends to shut them up quickly.

www.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/03/19/dissent/

I carry a copy of this around with me, to wave under the noses of people and students.

Here's the quote about (and from) Taft (the whole article requires a subscription, but you can find copies of it on the 'Net):

-------------------------
After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the GOP faced pressures similar to those Democrats are under now. There were admonitions not to criticize the sitting administration, and declarations, immediately after the Japanese attack, that politics had to stop at the water's edge. But conservatives had detested Franklin Roosevelt, his New Deal and his foreign policy -- the lend-lease program and the destroyer deal with Britain in particular. And the events of Dec. 7, 1941, seemed to stifle their ability to dissent.

What, then, were they to do? Taft had his answer. He gave a speech to the Executive Club of Chicago arguing that it was precisely the duty of the opposition party to ask the tough questions. He didn't give this speech five and a half months after the attack, as Daschle did (and remember, Daschle didn't even give a speech). He wasn't speaking five weeks after hostilities began, which was how long it took DeLay to blast President Clinton on the war in Kosovo. Taft delivered his speech ... on Dec. 19, 1941!

And quite a direct speech it was. His defense of criticism as patriotism is worth quoting at some length:

"As a matter of general principle, I believe there can be no doubt that criticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government ... too many people desire to suppress criticism simply because they think that it will give some comfort to the enemy to know that there is such criticism. If that comfort makes the enemy feel better for a few moments, they are welcome to it as far as I am concerned, because the maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country maintaining it a great deal more good than it will do the enemy, and will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur."

Taft invoked Woodrow Wilson, Oliver Wendell Holmes and Francis Biddle, FDR's attorney general, as defending this right, and argued that "the duties imposed by the Constitution on Senators and Congressmen certainly require that they exercise their own judgment on questions relating to the war."
--------------------

I can't whip this quote out often enough. ALso of note is that Taft's speech was NOT seen or attacked as unpatriotic or "disgusting," as DeLay labeled Daschle's statement. The author could not find any evidence in major papers (he lists two or three and alludes to research on others) of attacks from the administration against Taft's speech. That's because nobody had their head up their butt like today.

More GOP hypocrisy at work - or, more likely, more work from those ignorant of their country's own history and real traditions.

CS
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. That about says it all.
Excellent quote. This one goes in the file.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. Dear Freeper:
Republicans control the White House, both houses of Congress and the Supreme Court.

With power comes responsibility. If you won't take responsibility now, you will never take responsibility for the misdeeds in this nation. You have all the power, yet are undeserving of it as long as you continue to point the finger elswhere. If you wish to lead and have others follow, I suggest you try leading by example instead of divisiveness.

As for what you think the terrorists want, I will not let their desires dictate my beliefs, nor will I let fear, threats and accusations abate my legitimate criticism of a corrupt administration. Terrorists don't vote. Americans do. If you won't listen to the collective voices of the world community, maybe you will listen to the millions of Americans who oppose this president and his policies. Next election we will speak out, and we will be heard with our vote.
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. you are right
he says, go ahead, and voice dissent

then he calls me a terrorist lover for voicing my opinions

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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
22. You just may, I say may, have made this guy
think, or at least blink.

{LIE: Bush and Rumsfled and Rice have said (after misleading the American people) that there is no tie between Saddam & 9/11. And Saddam's was a secular state, so if you want to talk about "fanatics" you can look elsewhere in the mideast - or maybe right there in Texas - better yet, just look in the mirror.}

I am not saying that political debate should not occur or that you should not be allowed to disagree with the current occupants of the White House. Politics in America will always demand debate and discussion of the way we run this country.


Notice how he backs off a little after you point out how the US has been mislead.

He still comes very close to calling you a traitor.


Here are a couple of quotes he might enjoy:


The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State."
-Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels, Hitler's Propoganda Minister


Why, of course the people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." -
Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II

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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
24. A friend who is an Independent said
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 06:14 PM by Woodstock
I sent him the letter the freeper wrote, and he said the guy just was repeating Bush's lies. He said that we tracked the terrorists responsible for 9/11 to Pakistan, then let them go. Now we have just created a new crop of terrorists in Iraq that were not there before. Meanwhile, in Afghanistan, the Taliban & Al Qaeda are regaining power, and they are strenghtening their power in Pakistan. He blames Bush for getting our troops killed, and quoted Bush's "Bring them on" comment. He said:

"It is amazing how such people can alter facts - it is like a vast cult where night becomes day and day becomes night."
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kyrasdad Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
29. Another drive-by Freeping
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