Florida history changed today.....State Library allows no browsing.

[madfloridian]

Closed stacks. No browsing allowed. I have never been in a library which did not permit looking around. This is very sad. It is the revenge of Jeb, Glenda, and Judith, gov, sec, and librarian.....for our fight to save the library.

They always get their way, even if they have to sneak in another door. The legislature did not intend this. I know that, because I worked with them to keep the funding and keep it open.

This is a sad time.
Browsing barred at the State Library

Then the final insult is just below the headline:
"Change implemented to increase circulation"

SNIP..."No browsing is the new rule as of today for the State Library's circulating collection.

Closing the stacks of the circulating collection, and making its 350,000 books and other materials accessible only through librarians, will help boost usage, said Judith Ring, Florida's director of library and information services.

"What our hope is is that as people come and consult with the professional librarian staff on their services, staff can assist them in finding more materials," Ring said. "Our professional staff are trained librarians on how to search, and do searches with people. The interaction, I believe, will increase circulation."...."

They fail to mention that many librarians were fired. There are fewer now. I doubt that interacting with a librarian will increase circulation.

:(

[alexwcovington]

1. Hmmm

I take it you've never been to the Library of Congress.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. That's a reference library

And, as such, needs to make sure things don't walk away. It's mostly for researchers who KNOW what they want.

[DoNotRefill]

So's this, Muddle....

eom

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. No, THE reference library

The Library of Congress is the reference library for an entire nation. It's different.

[DoNotRefill]

34. Then wouldn't this library...

be the reference library of the State of Florida?

Same idea, smaller political unit....

[madfloridian]

35. No, it would not.

It has a circulating library which Jeb wanted to give to his buddies at Nova. We stopped from giving away millions of dollars of our history.

He got mad.

Why don't you just not go there, and that will also increase the circulation.

[DoNotRefill]

43. The article makes it sound like....

they'll continue to circulate books, but the patron will simply have to request the book from the librarian instead of finding it themselves. Is this correct?

[madfloridian]

46. It is wrong to do that.

I am on mailing lists with researchers who have donated books and family histories. We should not have to ask to ask a librarian for a book that we should be able to go and get ourselves.

I don't think you want to understand our battle. You apparently do not know the background of our fight to save the library.

[DoNotRefill]

51. Then please explain it to me.

I want to understand. But I've done research in closed stack libraries, and never had a problem with getting what I was looking for. And there's an exemption for "scholarly research". Ask a college professor...that term can cover a VERY wide area and levels of expertise.

I understand that you have a lot vested in this fight. What I don't understand is WHY. Have you ever done research in a closed stack library?

[aldian159]

54. i get it

now the librarian will be able to document if you get the koran

[MessiahRp]

59. That was my thought too

You know the Patriot Act allows the Government to know what you checked out but they can't find out what you looked at and browsed through... maybe you looked at a book there and took notes or made photocopies...

This would allow the Govt. to institute a way where all books are being documented and thus the ability to view information would again be infringed upon. This is just Jeb's way of closing a loophole in the Patriot Act and thus keeping record of who's looking at what.

Better not look at that Al Franken Book... they may lock you away with no legal counsel or official charges and say you're a "Liberal Terrorist".

Rp

[blondeatlast]

71. Trust me, guy--we don't care what you read. Librarians have been leaders i

opposition to the unPatriot Acts.

[dmr]

75. Read this - it explains the hypocrisy

of his recent change in the library to 'increase' circulaton because he lost this round when the legislature did not agree with his idea to fund 5 million dollars to upkeep 10 million dollars of books that he planned to give away primarily to private Nova University. Imagine having to pay skinner 5 dollars extra to accept your 10 dollar donation! What a sad loss for Florida and a near coup for private Nova. He will soon find a way to put a new set of screws into the works, bank on it.

I can understand your heartbreak, MadFloridian - Jeb is vengeful. He needs to find creative ways make budget/job cuts in order to pay for his cronism.

http://libraryjournal.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA279629&publication=libraryjournal

http://libraryjournal.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA279629&publication=libraryjournal

[Cha]

2. Won't this come under the heading of

"the bigger they are ..the harder they fall"?

Won't this and other dirty tricks of the jebco be the outrage that broke the camel's freakin' back?

And I am so sorry, mf!

[Don_G]

3. What??????

Oh hell...another Bush declares war on "unprofitable" edcuation.

I'm going to have to copy this article and send a copy to every Library in my state and maybe the school boards too.

:grr:

[Kinkistyle]

4. Oh my god! Get me out of this Orwell novel!!

It will BOOST usage? What the muck? Is Barnes and Nobles contributing to Jeb Bush's campaign? Have we officially been completely sucked into opposite universe?

Many of the books I read when I was a youth were books that happened to catch my eye while I was browsing around the library looking for something to read. This is atrocious. We need regime change in the Citrus State, and I mean YESTERDAY :mad:

[DoNotRefill]

13. Ummm...this is ONE library folks....

the STATE library. It's not your local branch, which are municipal libraries.

and 350,000 volumes isn't a huge library...that's the size of a typical Law library at a run of the mill Law School.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

16. may be one library to you, but it's our STATE library. it's quite

important for historical research.

[DoNotRefill]

19. So, when you're doing historical research...

do you normally browse? How does that work? It'd take forever to find stuff germane to your topic.

For me at least, my SOP for research is to go to the card catalog or whatever system they have (can you tell I tend to look in OLD libraries? ;-) ), find what you want, and then and ONLY then go to the stacks.

[JCMach1]

25. Wrong assumption...

When I have done historical research, there have been a number of times that I stumbled across primary sources that I didn't know existed.

Sometimes, you do not know what you want.

[madfloridian]

27. YES when doing genealogical research I browse. A lot.

No, the stacks should not be closed. But you may think what ever you wish. You sound like your mind is made up. Fine.

[madfloridian]

32. Then you really don't love libraries.

You sound like it is something you hurry in and out of. Stop being difficult and then winking. It is not very nice.

[DoNotRefill]

37. I've used this kind of thing before...

f'rinstance, when I was doing research on the aftermath of the Greekfest riots in Virginia Beach and the preparation for LaborFest the next year as part of one of my dissertations. Part of my research involved going through the minutes of City Council meetings for Virginia Beach. These were kept in a closed archive. In order to access them, I had to present creds to the archivist/librarian, and tell her what I wanted. I knew from other research what was discussed when, but simply gave her a request for "all pertinent documents", to see what she'd come up with, and if they were trying to hide stuff. She ran it through her index and came back with the originals of every resource I wanted, despite the fact that I hadn't given her an exact list.

It was brutally efficient, and saved me loads of time because there was no learning curve for their filing system.

I DO love libraries. I read on average 3-5 hours a day. My (and my M.L.S. wife's) personal library literally has more books in it than the local municipal library (6,000+ at last count, the local library is small, at around 4,000 volumes total, not counting periodicals). But I recognize the difference between a specialized reference library and a "bumming around for fun" library.

[madfloridian]

41. You may have your brutal efficiency.

I can get that in sections of our own library here.

I like to browse family histories. I resent that you are defining our library for us without having known about it.

The things you mention are often closed stack anyway. That is not what the article and I are referring to.

Do a search on Jeb, Nova, library.

[blondeatlast]

72. Most research libraries WILL allow browsing, but you must make an appointm

and usually it requires an escort. It isn't really to save money (in this case, though, MF is right, it is to save money), it is to protect the rare and valuable (and irreplaceable) items within.

Jeb is wrong to do this. Our state library (Arizona) is farming out there collections, mostly to Phoenix (where I work). Phoenix has a huge Arizona collection that is for research only, although browsing is allowed. I suspect, though, that the State Archives will be closed stack.

[teryang]

66. I do research for a living

...and there is a roll for the fortuitous finding which takes places during browsing. The catalogue gets you where you want to go. When you get there, browsing reveals things you didn't know about but can definitely use.

[SadEagle]

24. Not that big, indeed.

The main library at the university I attend has 2.5 million books, and there are some smaller more specialized ones that have like half a million more. Quite surprising that a state library would be relatively small -- is it perhaps of a specialized scope?

[Zhade]

64. One. SO FAR.

If this stands, it will NOT be the only library to be attacked this way.

[tom_paine]

39. Yes, we have been completely sucked into Orwell's universe

Well, not completely. Sadly, things can and likely will get much worse (just look at the Old Soviet Union or "Farenheit 451").

Don't you know?

War is Peace
Slavery is Freedom
Ignorance is Strength

If you want to debunk that Bushevik Truth, why then you can just go down to your local refernce library and check it out...

[david_vincent]

5. Florida is bound and determined

to give Texas a run for its money as our stupidest state.

[madrchsod]

6. fahrenheit 451

jebbie, just burn the books and get it over with...

[blm]

7. That's just vengeful of them putting obstacles up

in the way of free information.

You must be sick about this after all your efforts earlier this year. My sympathies, madfloridian.

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. This is so incredibly stupid!

I just got back from the library. No browsing and I wouldn't find anything -- ever.

[sable302]

10. That way

they know not only the books you check out, but all the books that you look at in the process.
I guess they were afraid that radicals would forego checking out radical books and simply browse them in the library instead.

[DoNotRefill]

20. Ummm....since when did this library have radical books in it?

the article makes it appear that it's generally reference material. Somehow, I doubt they'd have "the anarchist's cookbook" in that library...

[sable302]

33. well, you know

radical books like whatever's being banned these days. Not bomb making books, but Brave New World or Huck Finn or whatever's on this weeks shit list.

In retrospect, I wonder if there is really a valid point to this thread. Libraries were generally closed stack for many many years, and we all got along just fine.

[madfloridian]

56. My post was valid.

I have never known most libraries to be closed stack. If my post offends you, why did you take part?

I fought the battle with Jeb, so I have a right to speak.

Did you see my post below about the "weeding out" But then that is ok, too.

[blondeatlast]

73. WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU READ! Get that straight, please!

I'm a Christian who has helped a Satanist find the Satanist Bible, a Muslim find a Quran concordance, etc, ad infinitum. See, that's my job . . .

I am always happy to help others seek the knowledge they desire, no matter what.


Somewhere, someone has mistaken this Lipstick Librarian for John Ashcroft; you may want to get your vision checked!

[BiggJawn]

11. Did Steve Goldsmith dream this up?

Goldsmith, former mayor of Indianapolis, failed Nr. 2 at the failed "office of Faith-Based Give-a-Ways", now a Senior VP at Lockheed-Martin (Thanks, Dick!)hated public libraries.

When Mayor of Indy, he went toe-to-toe with the director of the IMCPL over the library's policy on loaning video tapes.
"It's not fair to have the taxpayers of the county putting county government in competiton with private-sector video renters like "Blockbusters"..."

Rumour had it that he felt the taxpayers were paying to put Zondervan's (fundy bookseller) and WaldenBooks out of business, too, through support of the library...

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. Boost usage? How the heck is that going to boost usage?

Say I am having a personal,marital problem...I want to share this with someone I don't know, instead of being able to look it up for myself? Right, Boost usage my *bleep*.

[Kamika]

14. Guess they have to browse what they want online

nt

[alcuno]

15. Another Florida disgrace. Hey madfloridian,

I was just talking with my mom who lives in Florida. Do you have any link to information about the reduction in credits for high school students in Florida? She hadn't heard about it.

[cap]

17. why are they picking on the library?????

of all things....
Why????

[DoNotRefill]

18. Folks, this is a SINGLE library...

filled with non-fiction reference-type materials. It's NOT your local municipal library.

And I've been in several libraries that had restricted access. You search the catalog, find what you want, take it to the librarian, and get it. Many places with heavy duty periodical sections operate this way for their archives. It prevents things from getting out of order, so it can actually be found.

[gbwarming]

22. If the reason is to preserve the collection then they should have said so

and dispensed with the "this will boost circulation" BS. I've never been to the Florida State Library but it looks to me like they've got lots of regular books too. 158 hits for "Asimov, Isaac" as the keyword for example. 17 Tom Clancy, 44 Danielle Steel, 143 Chiltons Auto repair manuals. They have a 28 day loan period with up to two renewals.

Sure, they may have lots of valuable items which require special handling, but they've got plenty of regular books to which patrons, taxpayers, should have direct access.

http://draweb.dos.state.fl.us/web2/tramp2.exe/log_in?SETTING_KEY=English

[madfloridian]

28. This library has been open stack for over a hundred years.

Jeb changed it. He lost, we won. He is getting back at us.

Slow the circulation, then close it.

I do not care what you think, really. I know there was no reason for this.

Oh, BTW, sir, this has many wonderful family history books, donated by family members. My kids will do that with my research when I die. Browsing through the family names was wonderful.

[DoNotRefill]

38. Correct me if I'm wrong....

"Oh, BTW, sir, this has many wonderful family history books, donated by family members. My kids will do that with my research when I die. Browsing through the family names was wonderful."

but under this new system, they'll still be able to browse through the family names, just not at the shelf. All they'll have to do is look in the catalog, find what they're interested in, and the librarian will bring it out for them to go through. If it's not what they want, they can send it back and get others.

[OldSoldier]

74. Yeah, that makes sense...

if your name is Mowreader or Niemiec. If your name is Jones, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

[SoCalDem]

21. ..so the librarians can "help" them find the "right" book

how comforting :eyes:..

and opf course the "unused books" can then be discarded, right??

[QC]

23. Closed stacks are not uncommon.

In some ways they're not such a bad thing--books are far less likely to be lost or stolen.

Even libraries with generally open stacks tend to restrict access to rare books, historical papers, etc. When I work in my university's Faulkner archive, I look up the material I want, fill out a card, and give it to the staff. Then they bring it to me and I use it in a spacial reading room where I am monitored. They do this to prevent patrons from vandalizing or stealing rare materials.

Of course, no one really believes that Jeb could care less about preserving valuable research material, but I think that people who want to fight his attack on the library need a stronger argument than the fact that the stacks are now closed.

[SadEagle]

26. The story mentions this is about the circulating collection...

... i.e. the stuff one can take home to read.

I don't think anyone objects to reasonable limitations imposed to protect important historical materials

[madfloridian]

36. That is not what they are doing .

Did you read the article?

[QC]

53. Yes, dear, I read the article.

You, on the other hand, clearly do not know much about research libraries.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that while Jeb's conduct regarding the library is clearly political, fighting him will be very hard if the best argument you can come up with is this lame-ass complaint about closed stacks.

[madfloridian]

55. Yes, dear?

This has become a very ugly place. The other night Will Pitt called me a half-assed martyr, but of course others agreed it was out of line.

Tonight you say I have a lame-ass complaint.

I sure do have trouble with my ass.

Don't you tell me anything about how that library incident worked. You do not understand at all.

Also, we can not fight Jeb. He has won. He is in total control here. If he is crossed, he fights back.

I am so sorry that my ass is such topic of discussion here. What is happening? Read my original post, there was nothing ugly in it.

This is just pathetic. Lame-ass?

[QC]

69. You were snotty to me, so you got the same in return.

Don't like it? Then don't be snotty to people.

[DoNotRefill]

42. Ya know what REALLY irritated me when I was in school?

knowing a book was there, but being unable to locate it.

Some of the schools I went to were highly competitive, with limited resources. For example, there were times when an entire class would be given a problem which meant we had to "go to the stacks" and look up caselaw, statutes, et cetera. Certain books were vitally necessary to complete the assignment. For the commonly used stuff, there might be two or three sets of a series of needed books. Some of the overachievers, trying to get good grades while sabotaging everybody else, would use the books and then either put them into the reshelving pile (they were supposed to be instantly reshelved by the students), or "misfile" them elsewhere in the library so that their classmates couldn't find them. Another less common (because it resulted in instant expulsion) method was to "razor" the needed pages...by taking an exacto knife and cutting them out of the book.

I got quite adept in locating the needed books, to the point that I knew where all the copiers and reshelf spots were on all 5 floors of the library. It was a huge pain in my ass (due to my disability and insufficient handicapped access). Closed stacks would have alleviated this problem.

[gbwarming]

44. Too bad the profs didn't put them at the reserves desk

That would be the standard procedure for vital books needed to complete class assignments.

I really don't understand your defense of the change in FL policy which was stated not as an aid to preservation of the collection or in order to prevent misshelving but instead as an attempt to 'increase circulation'.

[DoNotRefill]

49. Nah...that was part of the assignment...

you had to actually locate them among the thousands of other books that looked almost identical. Court reporters aren't known for their distinguishing cover-art. ;-) They are generally identical from the outside except for the volume numbers on the spines.

It's hard to check out a book if it's been misshelved, isn't it?

[0rganism]

60. Have you ever heard that they "increase circulation" before?

Why, if closed stack is such a kickass idea, let's have every library do it! It will "increase circulation", after all.

Now, I would have thought that making those few librarians who remain after the budget cuts run around pulling books for able-bodied readers would create a bottleneck. But now Jeb's good friend Judith Ring tells us it will "boost usage" and "increase circulation", so let's all go to the library and party like it's 1999.
:party: :party: :party:

"We're saying welcome to America... Why don't you share information with us?"

I can see a new job developing, that of "proxy library patron". Don't want Uncle Jeb nosing in on your reading habits? Hire some 20-year-old college kid to check the books out for you. Pay him in beer.

[madfloridian]

29. You know what, forget it.

NO, the state library has NOT been closed stacks. There are books there donated by many genealogy researchers like myself and others I work with.

YES, I know it is different than a library in a city.

Good grief, Jeb was going to give it all away to NOVA, a private university. We stopped him. He got mad. He is showing the legislature not to cross him.

I loved browsing through some of the books there. But then what the heck do I know.

We all know Jeb was being spiteful. I know librarians that have been fired for no reason, just to get his folks in there.

If you think this is a good idea, fine. I wish I had not posted. Our groups spent months fighting this. I was even told by my senator's office that they were well aware of my opinion. Then they backtracked and said to keep them informed.

I wish I had not posted it.

[gbwarming]

40. I'm sorry for the loss of access and service madF.

I don't think most of the posters saying this is no big deal actually read the article. Sounds to me that there won't be anywhere enough staff to go and fetch books from the stacks, let alone 'advise' patrons on what they should read.

I occasionally use the condensed stacks (Buhr) facility at the University of Michigan. It's ok, they're fast and I'm glad to be able to review the older material they store - BUT - I have to hand over a photo ID to get anything. I'd be very uncomfortable doing that in Jeb Bush's Florida.

[0rganism]

61. Question re. genealogy browsing

The article says, "Parts of the Florida collection, documents and items related to state history, and the genealogy collection continue to be open for browsing but their contents cannot be checked out."

So it looks like you can still browse the genealogy stuff, but it doesn't circulate. OTOH, everything that does circulate would appear to go through the closed stack process. Who came up with this wack system?

[Zhade]

65. Don't say that. I, for one, am very glad you did.

I can see the potential abuse. It's right in front of our faces. JebCo values an informed citizenry the way a skydiver values a concrete parachute.

[demgurl]

31. Come on guys, you forget.....

If people are allowed to browse at the public library, the next thing you know, they will be reading. Reading may lead to an educated mind and possibly *Gasp* voting. We wouldn't want that now, would we? Such a sad state of affairs.

Christina

[DoNotRefill]

45. I'm curious...there's an exemption...

for scholarly researchers. Maybe you should see what qualifications are required if you really want to browse.

[madfloridian]

47. I am not scholarly.

You are going on ignore. I worked too hard on this to have it belittled by you.

[DoNotRefill]

50. You might be surprised....

if you're doing geneological research, that may well qualify.

[madfloridian]

48. Close the stacks, increase circulation. Same as the Bush Iraq principle.

We get attacked more so we are winning. Makes as much sense.

[madfloridian]

52. For the skeptical, more info. What about "weeding"?

I got this from someone I know. I am not sure exactly what they mean by "weeding", but since the shelves are empty it does not sound really good to me.

SNIP...."I was in the State Library stacks a few days ago and there are large
areas of space where the "weeding" has been taking place. That is
surely why they don't want people up there. They don't want the public
to know what is going on.

All of the display cases in the lobby of the second floor are empty.

I wonder just what the criteria are for weeding the books. I also wonder just how the weeded out books are disposed of. So far they weren't up to the 900's where so much Florida material is located.

I got the impression from the Tallahassee Democrat article that the
public would not even be allowed in the main room of the circulating
library where the catalog computers and circuation desk are located, but surely that cannot be so.

A large lucite display case for current periodicals was 3/4 empty....."

But everything is fine in Jeb's Florida.

[Zhade]

67. Sounds like a purge.

Get someone to check the dumpster out back for ash piles and paper scraps. Seriously.

[Occulus]

57. I haven't ever seen

a 'closed stack' library. I don't ever want to see one. I'm against the idea in general. Information in a library- ANY library- should be accessible to all, at any time, without having to go through another person to get to it.

This is wrong in general, and wrong specifically in this case. Closed stack libraries are an antithesis of what our country is really about.

If my local library went to closed stack, I'd cancel my card and download the books I want to read, just out of spite.

This is simply wrong, in every case. I can't see any need for it, ever.

And yes, I've been going to libraries since the age of six. I've never seen such a thing before, and I'd be horrified if it happened here.

No, I'd be defiant. What- a librarian is going to physically restrain me? I don't frilling think so!!!

I'll browse to my heart's content, thank you, and DAMN their petty closed stack rule.

It's time for us to start defying the authorit-aaa.

[DoNotRefill]

58. FYI...The Library of Congress...

is closed stack.

[Zhade]

62. This is police-state activity.

Plain and simple.

DAMMIT! My family lives in Jeb's banana republic!

[lostnfound]

63. Madfloridian, thanks for posting this

In spite of the harassment you are getting, I'm glad you posted this because as an exFloridian I like to keep up on what that SOB (Son of Bush) is doing to my homestate. It is devestating.

This topic is worth emailing a news columnist I know about, and also maybe DemocracyNow! would be interested in covering it.

[opihimoimoi]

68. Another sign the Real Pubs want us to be Lolo

Better to control, dominate if we are ignorant.

[susu369]

70. A huge THANK YOU is in first order

Madfloridian has worked tirelessly against Jeb Bu$h's "devious plans" with the library system.

Side note: where are the state's disputed ballots from the 2000 sham election stored? (Unless that has been changed recently.)

The library system does not belong to Jeb Bu$h - it belongs to the people of Florida. I do not believe Jeb has the people's interest at heart - there's more to this story.

[Zhade]

76. Hear, hear.

NT!