How can we stop the religious right?

[Exultant Democracy]

We have Preachers trying to erect hate monuments to Mathew Shepherd

We have military leaders who explain that we will beat the Muslims because their god is just an idol while the Christian god is real.

We have a congress that is eroding a woman’s right to choose.

All of this is thanks to the Christian version of the taliban, that is alive and well in the U.S. So what can we do about them?

[GAspnes]

1. we could kill Christ again

Think that would help?

[FDRrocks]

3. To me...

Christ was the good part.

[Exultant Democracy]

4. I think the fundies would

end up killing the Christ assuming he was real and did come back. I think they would be pretty pissed when he showed up all Arab looking ( not to mention that he stands for everything that they hate.)

[RummyTheDummy]

51. Not to mention he was a Jew

And there's nothing fundies hate more than Jews, well maybe Catholics, but it's close.

[Bertha Venation]

61. Fundies DID kill Christ

The gospels are clear about who was behind the crucifixion. The ones who did it are the spitting image of today's radical right wing.

[Liberator_Rev]

101. Amen, Bertha

See all the documentation from the Gospels:
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/about/whokilledChrist.html

[loudnclear]

56. Leave them alone!!

"...leave them alone, for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
Acts 5:38-39

[Terwilliger]

70. LOL

HAHAHAHAH

that's fucked up :D

[FDRrocks]

2. I don't think we can.

Disclaimer: Atheist here.

I think Bush is going to majorly play the religion card in the 2k4 election, and it might be his trumph card. We are in a country filled with zealots. People here can justify every action with thier interpretation of the bible, and convinced others with the idea that the bible says so.

It is going to be as hard to stop these nuts as it will be to stop the Islamic fundies.

I stand strong on the idea that large religion is a plague, but I am awaiting arrival of a book someone referred to me here called "When God Becomes a Drug" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0874776570/qid=1067924683/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-6915945-5820728?v=glance&n=507846) that seems interesting. It wont convert me, but give me a view of the sane devout persons vision.

[Exultant Democracy]

7. looks like a good book

We can hope that we get a pope from a 3rd world country soon, which will put the hurt to the conservative Catholics.

[SharonAnn]

45. Actually no, 3rd world countries have conservative cardinals and bishops

So don`t look for any help there. The pope has stacked the deck, apointed 130 out of 135 cardinals. Also, the countries south of the equator have very conservative Catholic religious leaders. South America, Africa, India, etc.

[devinsgram]

39. Just went to amazon and ordered the book,

Thanks, always looking for a good read.

[TrogL]

5. By revealing them and their methods to the world

[nannygoat]

20. Another good resource

GROUND RULES & TIPS FOR CHALLENGING THE RIGHT
http://www.publiceye.org/ark/tips.htm

[jsw_81]

6. A few suggestions

1. Vote Democratic.

2. Pay attention to school board elections, because RR candidates frequently come in under the radar and start pushing their extreme agenda once they're in office.

3. Make sure that liberal/progressive friends and relatives (especially women and gays) get involved in the political process so we can stop the RR before it's too late.

4. Join a group like the ACLU, PFAW, or Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. These groups are under constant attack thanks to Bush and the Republican Congress, and they need our help more than ever before.

5. Keep an eye on RR groups and conservative websites like Free Republic. It's always a good idea to know your enemy.

[Exultant Democracy]

8. I'm not sure that is enough

We need to find a way to shove a stake into their heart. If there was some way to divide them from the traditional conservatives I think that their organization would rot away. It would be great if we had some tapes of Chimpy swearing and taking the lords name in vain like Nixon did.

[jsw_81]

9. Well...

We could infiltrate and try to destroy them from within, but that would be tough. Not to mention scary as hell.

[Liberator_Rev]

32. That's what we do !

"We need to find a way to shove a stake into their heart. If there was some way to divide them from the traditional conservatives."

80% of the voters of America identify themselves as "Christian". We "Liberals Like Christ" show why Christians belong in the Liberal Democratic Party. See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Democrats .
But Democrats would rather LOSE than be associated with anything overtly religious.

[kodi]

13. damned right. beat them at their own game, organize and volunteer locally

participation in the community at the lowest levels of the social and political process is the only way to counter the right wing.

any progressive movement that will have long-term positive results has to be cut from the whole cloth of active volunteerism and community participation.

like it or not, we are going to have to be a 1,000 points of light in our communities and let that light shine out for our beliefs.

if we stand by and let others run the local school board, zoning commission or county commissioner's seats, we will lose out to the activism from the other side.

by your fruits shall you be known.

[nomaco-10]

14. sorry jsw, I skimmed thru this thread and

didn't read yours, I ended up posting something almost identical to yours, didn't mean to rip you off. I guess it true, great minds really do think alike lol.

[minto grubb]

36. Combatting the RR

Further to what has already been said, we must also take the fight to the RR.
When they show up insisting that Creation be taught in school, do Progressive teachers really know Darwinism well enough to defend it against a hostile criric?
If the RR can invite specialist speakers who are experts in thier field, we must do likewise.
On the evolutionary front, there is too much uncertainty around the accuracy of dating techniques. If you want to destroy the credibility of Genesis, you focus on the Flood. Every scrap of 'proof' for a flood can be dismissed by Plate Techtonics.
Then get the kids to think about the logistics of having penguins reach the Antarctic. Get them to figure the most likely explanation of kangaroos being only found in Australia.
On other fronts, you have a constitution.

[Mike Niendorff]

79. Re: "Taking the battle to them"

With all due respect, you can't "take the battle to them" if you continue to allow them to define the battlefields. Toward that end, I'd like to see them challenged not on the esoteric outgrowths of their doctrines -- science curricula, etc -- but, rather, at the very roots of it.

These people claim to be "Christians". They do this because it makes it harder for people to attack their right-wing agenda (in their ideal world, they would like to characterize their opponents as "running against God and puppies and the flag"). In short, they are using the word "Christian" not to imply submission to the teachings of Jesus, but, rather, as a political cover to advancing a very un-Christian and anti-Christian agenda.

This is where these people need to be taken on: at the roots. They claim to be "Christians", yet their politics -- screw the poor, screw the elderly, screw the sick and the dying, fatten the rich, jail the dark-skinned, kill the foreigner and take his oil and land, demonize all who dissent, etc, etc, etc -- their politics are anything but "Christian".

These people are liars. In the most emphatic of terms, they are NOT "Christians". They are right-wing whack-jobs with a right-wing agenda, trying to hide their true nature under a veil of religion while hoping that no one will notice what they really are.

We progressives need to shine a spotlight on this foundational lie. Until that happens, they will continue to hail any and all opposition as evidence of an "anti-Christian plot", of the "workings of the devil", and basically any other trumped up claim that allows them to whip their followers into an even further frenzy of hate and paranoia. And, worst of all, their scam will continue to work.


MDN

[truth2power]

81. Great post, Mike.

This is the crux of this whole issue. Trying to out-logic them is never going to work, because it's not about truth or facts or logic. It's about emotion and belief.

This is a scam, pure and simple, that has nothing to do with religion. As you said, religion is only a political cover to immunize them against any challenge to their aganda.

[spooky3]

75. And Freedom From Religion Foundation, www.ffrf.org.

[MrPrax]

10. Believe it or not...

my technique almost always works...
I tell them I am a devout atheist...they have very little to say after that.
They are looking for fellow Christians to guilt out and exploit.

[IranianDemocrat]

11. We stop the christian right with the right christians.

My favorite phrase from Al Sharpton.

[nomaco-10]

12. You enlist the aid of the

ACLU, you write your senators and thank them for fillibustering and keeping somebody like Estrada out of the fast track for Supreme Court Justice, you pound the pavement and work your ass off for every liberal, dem candidate starting locally at the very lowest level. Just a few suggestions.

[A HERETIC I AM]

15. It will take at least a generation or two.

I was raised Episcopalian but now am Atheist. (And for the record, please...it isn't that i "Don't believe in god." Belief has nothing to do with it. I KNOW god is a mythical construct. I don't "Lack a belief in god" as Webster is wont to put it. I don't lack a damned thing, spiritually or ecumenically.) Recall the Madrassas (Sp?) of Pakistan? They indoctrinate. Force the Koran into the minds of the young by rote. If all you know is a religious text your world view is going to be pretty narrow and this method is pretty much going to guarantee you a steady crop of fundamentalist thinkers that will think the way they are told. Same thing here. Next time you are speaking with a xtian fundie, just use the word "Indoctrinate" regarding how children are exposed to their religion. That person will recoil at the word because it has an unsavory connotation. But it IS indoctrination. If an American xtian fundamentalist was raised in what is now Nebraska in the 1370's, they would think that "god" resided in the heart of the bear or the eye of the eagle. If he were brought up today in certain parts of India he might swear that god had a blue face and black hair. The image folks hold of god is CULTURAL, NOT historical. The way to defeat the Religious Right in this country is through well funded, competent, SECULAR public education. The more people are taught in such a way that the concept of the entire universe and all the life forms in it being created in six, twenty four hour periods by a jewish fella is regarded as being patently absurd, the more people will get back to the rationalism that was prevalent during the enlightenment. Well educated folks tend to have well educated leaders. Poorly educated ones elect the likes of the Shrub and take seriously the likes of the Falwells and Robertsons and Roy Moore's of the world

[Kinkistyle]

16. Here Here.

Kids need to be taught criticial and analytical thinking skills, and they also need to be exposed to different cultures, religions and ways of thought. The fact that there are so many different religions in itself should create cognitive dissonance and stir their curiosity about the true nature of the world.

I remember watching some TV show about college kids majoring in Biology at some ultra-religious school (might have been Brigham Young, not sure). Anyway, almost 95% of modern Biology is based on evolutionary principles, so naturally there is a major amount of dissonance going on considering Christians are taught to believe that Evolution is a lie spread by the Devil. Of course, the kids voice their concerns, but the pressure is intense -- from their parents, from their school etc... Eventually they come to terms with the huge inconsistency. I dunno how, probably through some convoluted intellectually dishonest apologist work-arounds that tries to explain why things appear to have evolved even though evolution doesn't happen.

But its definitely been an improvement. I mean, 50 or 60 years ago, the idea of a conservative christian college teaching Evolutionary Biology would have been unfathomable. It will take time, but it will happen. With the advent of television and the Internet, the world is growing smaller, more ideas and information is shared and more communication is occurring between different people. Change is happening, albeit slow ;)

[ComerPerro]

17. You can't do a damn thing

Without them bitching about their freedom of religion.

Christians seem to think that the first amendment provides that other religions should not be promoted, but that Christianity should be sponsored and recognized by the Government.

Anything that doesn't acknowledge the Bible as the ultimate authority, to these fanatics, is an assault on their first amendment rights.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

18. Give 'em enough rope

and they'll hang themselves. Not too tricky.

[Kamika]

19. Breed

I'm serious

Get as many kids as you can and be sure you raise them good.


The taliban gets tons of kids and brainwashes them

[ithacan]

21. check out this website:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

Documents how the GOP is now being run by right wing fundies, very clearly these so called "christians" have taken over the GOP despite the fact that they are a small minority.

One solution: the normal, moderate republicans have to seize their party back from these extremists. Or else Republicans in the northeast need to split off and form their own moderate conservative party. They'd hold the balance in the house and senate as it is currently constituted.

The fundies and the fundie-controlled GOP want theocracy, they don't even try to hide it...

[Exultant Democracy]

25. Wow, that is one scary web site

****
The Christian Statesman is a publication of the National Reform Association. Who is the National Reform Association?

"The mission of the National Reform Association is to maintain and promote in our national life the Christian principles of civil government, which include, but are not limited to, the following:

"Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government.

"Jesus Christ is, therefore, the Ruler of Nations, and should be explicitly confessed as such in any constitutional documents. The civil ruler is to be a servant of God, he derives his authority from God and he is duty-bound to govern according to the expressed will of God.

"The civil government of our nation, its laws, institutions, and practices must therefore be conformed to the principles of Biblical law as revealed in the Old and New Testaments."
****

[ithacan]

78. yup

if they could get away with it, the current leadership of the GOP would openly declare the US a Christian nation and institute the Christian reconstructionist goal of the US as a theocracy.

[Ouabache]

91. Yeah but they have to change the 1st amendment first

or ignore it.

[Iverson]

22. sure as hell not by pandering to them

Right now their biggest fear politically is being sold out by the corporate wing of the Republican Party. Otherwise the culture war against secularism and tolerance proceeds apace.

There needs to be a compelling, well-articulated progressive message to act as a counter. Preferably, this should come from the Democratic Party, since it has a national apparatus and the best potential to spread that message.

Kinder, gentler Republicanism is not that message. It cannot be to the right of former Sen. Edward Brooke and former VP Nelson Rockefeller.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. The liberal religious communities need to get to work

but it's going to be hard. As we've seen in the past few days, liberal religious groups like the Episcopalians get all kinds of publicity for consecrating an "out" gay bishop (something which is likely to infuriate the unenlightened) but no publicity for things like organizing their members for a continuous series of Habitat for Humanity projects or feeding the homeless on an ongoing basis or funding boarding schools for AIDS orphans in Africa or resettling refugees regardless of their religion or vocational training among the destitute in Haiti or speaking out against the Iraq War.

Meanwhile, if Stripmall Community Church serves turkey loaf at a skid row mission once a year on Thanksgiving, they get front page coverage. The rest of the year, Stripmall Community runs ads in the newspaper about how they're a "Bible-believing, Christ-centered church."

So the naive, especially the members of Stripmall, are confirmed in their belief that their church and others like it are the only true bastions of Christianity, and that the liberal churches have been infiltrated by the devil and do nothing but flout "traditional values."

The good news is that some fundamentalists wake up eventually and realize that they've been brainwashed. Some become atheists, but others, who still have religious impulses, move over to more liberal denominations. I have been associated with the Episcopal Church for nearly thirty years, and I am continually struck by the number of people in it who were brought up fundamentalist.

You're never going to turn all the fundamentalists into atheists, because some people, no matter what, have the religious impulse. (Look at how well the Soviet Union succeeded in stamping out religion in seventy years--NOT.) Trying to turn a fundie into an atheist through formal logic is doomed to failure, because it's not about logic, and if you get nasty and snide, as some of the members of DU have on other threads about religion, you'll simply reinforce their leaders' line about "Christians being persecuted." The spiritual connection felt by people who have had a "born again" experience is real (explain it as brain chemistry if you wish, but it's a powerful experience and not easily discarded).

The liberal religious denominations are going to have to lead the way and demonstrate that you can have a spiritual life without being a brainwashed fascist or a scientific ignoramus. It may surprise some of the atheists on the board to hear that I've never heard anyone in either the ELCA Lutheran (I was raised in its predecessor organization) or Episcopal Churches condemn evolution or modern cosmology or particle physics, or suggest that God is a Republican.

The fundies can be the way they are only by ignoring significant parts of the Bible, especially the Jewish prophets who condemn exploitation of the poor and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (one of the parts of the New Testament that modern theologians agree is likely authentic and not a later mythologization). Liberal Christians need to point up the contradictions between the fundies' actions and their professed beliefs.

Now working with brainwashed or deliberately obtuse people is a thankless task. Some of you may have seen the segment of Wide Angle on PBS about a Pakistani musician who has been condemned by the mullahs. He challenges them to find a passage in the Koran that forbids music and dancing, and they sidestep the question and condemn him anyway.

But some people are still open to persuasion, as long as we meet them where they are and find that entering wedge, whether it's informing a fan of the Left Behind books that the author has strong ties to the Moonies or telling a woman who frets about "gay teachers molesting her sons" about the male teacher in my high school who molested girls. (I added, "I guess only eunuchs should teach school," and that actually made her laugh.)

One problem with the liberal churches becoming more outspoken is that it's against their culture, which has absorbed Jesus teaching about not making a big show of it when you give alms to the poor. Yet we have to find ways to create cognitive dissonance in the followers of the fundamentalist churches, using their own language and belief systems.

It won't be easy.

[Malva Zebrina]

26. the mainstream established sects of the Christian religion

such as the Episcopalians and the Methodists and the Catholics have been losing membership over the past ten or more years. People were attracted to the glitzy new evangelical churches and their crystal cathedrals--their social connections, their modern approach, ie snack bars in the church and TV cameras all over--one such church boasts of 8 thousand members--people gravitated to that--old time churches were also becoming strapped to fund and maintain their churches, then as people took their money and gave it to other more appealing churches. It became the trendy thing to do---wear the WWJD bracelets, insert "Christian" in ridiculous places such as I saw once on a recipe forum--some woman preferred that only Christians respond to her recipe and some people were advertising the sale of puppies or kittens to good Christian homes :eyes:

This phenomena was described in several magazines at least five, if not more, years ago. People just wanted loud, in your face, arrogant religion-I wonder how that was reinforced with the trend away from liberalism and toward a rather sick conservatism---They thought it cool to pray around a flag pole making a display of their god and confront others with prayer at a football game and it was beginning to get really violent when born again evangelicals began taunting others--other Christians--eating their own so to speak, and there were several lawsuits about that.

I think that it will burn itself out--people will at some point, imo, need to get back to contemplation, spirituality, reflection and quietness--not shallow platitudes and glitzy slogans--

The only solution I would offer is to be active eneough to spot one of those who would have us all live in a theocracy and prevent him or her from being elected to anything--including dog catcher! That is the only practical solution I can think of. Individual churches of the more mainstream religions need to figure out how come they lost their flock--and the thinking really needs to be tightened up--it must be made clear what the objection is from one Christian, to this extremist fanatical Christian sect. How do you object to another Christian? In other words,what I wonder is if it is a fallacy of logic for one Christian to claim legitimacy and claim the other Christian not? Why? Is there any hypocrisy there?

My only concern as an atheist is that all religion stays out of the government. Churches will need to tackle their problems. I see little mention coming from any of the Dem hopefuls re religion,and I think that is good-- except we know Liebernam was caught and roped in along with Gore, into playing the god game.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. That kind of enthusiasm does burn itself out

There are parts of the country that church workers refer to as "burned-over areas." In other words, they went hog wild during one of the many religious revivals that began with the Great Awakening in the 1740s and cooled down so completely that they became largely secularized.

Also, I think the mainstream churches were asleep at the switch. They thought they were still in the 1950s, when people stuck by the denomination that they'd been brought up in and went to church whether they wanted to or not because it was the socially acceptable thing to do.

They have woken up, though, at least some of them have, and those that offer a certain something--and it's hard to describe, but you can feel it when you walk in the door, perhaps a sense of excitement and commitment and community, are growing. I don't know the statistics for Minneapolis yet, but in Portland, we naturally had huge fundie churches in the suburbs, but we also had First Unitarian, one of the largest UU congregations in the country, which grew from a single average-sized church to a comlex of buildings that took up a city block during the ten years I lived in the city. Another large church was Trinity Episcopal Cathedral, which had 5,000 members, When you talked to the members of either church, they were excited about going there.

My own current church, which I have attended for three months, is recovering quite well from some tough times that were caused by problems with employees and that caused a lot of people to leave. However, the people who stayed seem very happy now that the problems are behind them, and the church is growing again.

So it is possible for mainstream churches to flourish. They just have to pay as much attention to creating an attractive experience and atmosphere as the fundies do, and they can do it without adopting all that Las Vegas-style glitz.

[A HERETIC I AM]

34. In my opinion, Lydia Leftcoast made a profoundly insightful statement

and it was;


"The spiritual connection felt by people who have had a "born again" experience is real (explain it as brain chemistry if you wish, but it's a powerful experience and not easily discarded)."

This is the key. Religious spiritualism can be very evocative and deserves understanding. I have had several deep, insightful, emotional ...well...."episodes" for lack of a better term, that any xtian might agree were signs from a higher power. The knowledge of what they actually were gives me just as much peace as any believer but it is tempered with an understanding of human brain function, mysticism, myth, a smattering of Eastern spiritualism and a Christian upbringing. We need to try and reach those folks who insist things are true that are patently absurd to the rationalist with patience and tolerance. More tolerance than they typically want to afford us.

[greekspeak]

80. Can someone please explain to me why "liberal" is nasty and snide?

Liberals are constantly on the defensive on all sorts of political issues, because liberals are too dang nice. I am tired of hearing people tell me not to be "nasty and snide" to the poor, thin-skinned religious right. I am tired of having to put up with their constant ranting and raving and whining about everything and their getting whatever they want, while people like me are supposed to sit there with our lips zipped, lest the religious right's hegemony be broken. I DO NOT...I repeat DO NOT care what the religious right does on their own time. You wanna believe that you have a special mandate from the big man in the sky, please do. I will gladly defend your right to do that. But dont expect me to. I am not persecuting by not beleiving in such things. Also, these things are NOT anti-Christian persecution:

*Disallowing coerced prayer from captive audiences, as in schools

*Disallowing the erection of religious dogma and doctrines in court buildings

*Giving ALL Americans (not just white anglo-saxon Protestant heterosexual males) their full rights

[Lydia Leftcoast]

102. What I mean by "nasty and snide"

is dealing with the religious right (most of whom are not evil, just naive and brainwashed by their evil leaders) is telling them that they're stupid for believing in "the big man in the sky." (By the way, most mainstream Christians don't believe in "a big man in the sky," but in an immaterial spiritual force in the Universe.)

I'm not talking about objecting to their imposing their beliefs on you. I don't like their forcing their beliefs on everyone, either.

Suppose that every time you tried to expound your political beliefs, a freeper came back with, "FDR was a cripple who was unfaithful to his wife, Kennedy didn't really write Profiles in Courage, and Clinton got a blow job from an intern. So nya-nya-nya."

You'd say that the freeper was arguing irrelevancies and trying to be deliberately insulting.

You certainly have the right not to be forced into religious practices that are not your own, but adding irrelevant blanket condemnations of all religion sounds more like you're working out personal issues than actually adding anything to the debate.

[Wapsie B]

24. Use wedge issues

to splinter the various konservative denominations. Point out the absolutist nature of Baptists as opposed to Penecostals, as opposed to Open Bible, etc.........
Then give the moderate and liberal clergy more airtime. Kick off Jimmy Dobson from a few stations and put on Dr. Gerald Mann.

[realFedUp]

27. Change their hearts and minds....

[alcuno]

29. It's a fight that needs to be fought by fellow Christians,

Unfortunately, the largest single Christian religion in the US, the Catholic Church, has been rendered somewhat powerless in the debate because of the abuse and cover-ups that it has been involved in.

It's a matter of creating a clear divide between us and them. Jerry Falwell presides over a church with a membership of around 25,000 yet he is always in the news. He speaks for a relatively insignificant number of Christians, but because of his exposure in the media, seems to represent much greater numbers.

The mainstream Christian religions need to take up the fight. I have no idea how to get them to do that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. I liked it when Bishop Spong appeared on Politically Incorrect

and other TV shows. He's really more of a Unitarian than an Episcopalian theologically, but he's articulate and doesn't let the fundies get the best of him.

The mainstream denominations need to get some media spokespersons who are smart, quick on their feet, knowledgeable about both conservative and liberal theology, and able to communicate with a broad audience without sounding condescending or snide.

[Liberator_Rev]

31. "Liberals Like Christ" are the answer.

The best way to defeat the Religious Right is to expose them as the imposters that they are, which is what http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike does.

But Catholics here at DU don't want the Catholic part of the Religious Right, (i.e. the extremely Conservative hierarchy directed from the Vatican) exposed. So they don't want "Liberals Like Christ" to catch on here at DU (or anywhere else in America). They serve as excellent allies of the Religious Right.

[camero]

35. I agree

Expose them and discredit them.

[Liberator_Rev]

37. But HOW, Camero?

Do you also agree that http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike is the WAY to "expose and discredit them"? If so, then will you help spread the word, starting here at DU?

[camero]

63. LOL, why does everyone put my name in the subject?

Yes, I think your site is one of the ways. But I also think one-to-one conversation works too. I have turned some of my friends around to my point of view by showing Jesus' teachings as it relates to the poor (Sermon on the Mount, etc.) and then telling them that "we are the government" and as "the government" we should follow Jesus' teachings.

[Liberator_Rev]

38. But HOW, Camero?

Do you also agree that http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike is the WAY to "expose and discredit them"? If so, then will you help spread the word, starting here at DU?

[lostnfound]

40. What a way to undercut your own group.

Seems like a great way to attempt to divide the 'religious left', if there is such a thing, before it could begin to coalesce. Pit the religious left Protestants against the religious left Catholics, is that the plan? Who is it exactly that serves as excellent allies of the Religious Right? -- "Catholics here at DU"?

[Blue_Chill]

42. This is why the Religious Right is winning

Becasue those on the left, are too busy attacking eachother.

Rev goes right after Catholic that are a strong part of the Democratic party. And many other DUers think the best way is to use the ACLU as a tool to beat back all of Christianity.

This is why the right wins. They unite to fight us, while we divide and fight eachother.

[rhino47]

88. Im Catholic and Im not part of the religious right.

Im rather proud of my tree hugging liberal veiws.I can not see how as being a catholic/christian I can be anything but liberal.It all stems from my being raised catholic.My basic veiws of politics is based on this.You are your brothers keeper.I deeply feel that we all as a society are only as strong as the weakest link.If we do not take care of those that are not able what does that speak of us as a society?I have mixed feelings about certain edicts from the Vatican (ex: condoms does not prevent aids which is one of the stupidest things ive ever heard) but as a whole the church has given me a very good foundation of caring ,comfort and peace.

[Cleita]

33. Atheists, Agnostics and other non-Christian religions

should be very afraid. Since these fundamental religions are not grounded in a whole lot of logic, these believers can be led into any number of irrational acts stemming from their beliefs. That's why they absolutely cannot have the power of the government behind them in any way.

I think we really need to start insisting on the premise of separation of church and state set out in the Constitution. Also, there is a Biblical reference to point out to the Christians that this is what Jesus wants. It is the "render unto Caesar" quote that is attributed to Jesus. We need religion out of government for good.

I would also go as far as taking away the tax free status of religions and churches where there is no charities involved. Churches own a lot of property and I think they should pay their fair taxes like anyone else.

[Blue_Chill]

43. Careful Cleita, if you make it Left vs Religion you will lose

tax free status must remain in order for churches to keep their doors open. If you force them to close up shop they will turn on you and so will the very angry christians who belong to said churches.

The left is not even close to a majority without the left leaning christians.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Besides,

very few churches do NO charitable activities. Even the fundies

However, I would go after churches that tell their flocks to vote for specific candidates or parties, as opposed to saying that political position X is in line with their doctrine.

When certain leftists get all snide and superior about religion in general, or play out their personal issues as opposed to objecting to fundamentalists meddling in government or trying to set up a theocracy, they only reinforce the Republican propaganda about "godless liberals." In fact, many, if not most Democratic voters have some religious affiliation, and gratuitously insulting potential voters (And I'm not talking about swing voters here. Churches are very strong in the African-American and Latino communities, and Southern rural whites SHOULD be Dem voters from an economic point of view).

Nobody in the liberal religious community wants to suppress atheists or agnostics, nor do they want to establish a theocracy. The vast majority of liberal religious people are not Biblical literalists, and we know and accept modern science. We are not the enemy.

The fundies hate us maybe even more than they hate atheists. At least they seem to devote more energy to condemning non-literalist theology and the liberal churches' general acceptance of non-traditional sexual morality than to condemning atheism, which they regard as no threat to their own hijacking of the word "Christian."

[Cleita]

50. You just proved my point about how irrational religiously

indoctrinated people can be. Those Christians have already turned on athiests because they can't accept the fact that others think differently from them. I have no problem with other's religious practices as long as it doesn't involve sacrificing living creatures or humans to a diety, but there is no reason that they shouldn't pay for the privilege of enjoying the freebies we all enjoy,those freebies being roads and utilities like water and sewer and even health care if we ever get it.

Subsidizing religion is the same as the state sanctioning religion and is unconstitutional. It would only be fair if everyone got the same break, which means no one would pay those taxes. Now I think charitable institutions whether laic or religious should get tax breaks for being non-profit institutions that provide charitable services. I think clever clerics could certainly figure out how to make this loophole work for them.

Also, on edit, I think those religions that truly minister to their flocks won't have any problems. It's the ones that treat religion like a for profit business, like the TV evangelicals, that will be hit hard if forced to pay taxes.

[jsw_81]

54. I agree

I'm sick and tired of having to be "respectful" when it comes to religious delusions, myths and superstitions just because the masses believe that crap.

[Blue_Chill]

58. Then get a politician that shares your views and run him/her

and watch him/her lose in a landslide.

Have a great day.

[Blue_Chill]

57. Um......no.

Subsidizing religion is the same as the state sanctioning religion and is unconstitutional

Seperation of church and state prevents the state from sanctioning a religion over others. Being that all religions get tax breaks you really have no argument here.

This BTW is why us "irrational" religious folks see your behavior as threatening. You are over extending and misrepresenting the seperation of church and state to fit what you WISH it meant.

Now I think charitable institutions whether laic or religious should get tax breaks for being non-profit institutions that provide charitable services.

What is church? Is it not a charity to provide services free of charge? Perhaps you think that churches should charge a membership fee? After all you don't seem to care that the result of your rewritten church and state rule would close down churches or force them to charge a membership fee, which is would be an outrage.

Also, on edit, I think those religions that truly minister to their flocks won't have any problems. It's the ones that treat religion like a for profit business, like the TV evangelicals, that will be hit hard if forced to pay taxes.

Actually it would be the exact opposite. The TV psuedo christians make massive amounts of money they would be hit hard but survive. Heck they woul deven have cause to ask more of the brainless followers of supply side Jesus.

The small ones however that actually care would be shut down because they barely make enough to stay open and pay the minister/preist a decent salary as it is.


Your ideas would make me switch parties in a heart beat. You'll find that most christians on the left would not vote for someone that would result in their church closing down. That's going too far.

[Cleita]

82. Just read your own Bible.

Jesus Christ was an itinerant preacher who had no buildings, no collection plates and no agenda but to make everyone better human beings.

Churches own properties that should be taxed. The Nazarene church down the road from me owns a palatial estate with well tended gardens and an ocean view. There are no poor people who attend that church. One only needs look at the cars in the parking lot on Sunday to know that. If a congregation wishes to attend that church, there should be no problem with them accepting the responsibility for paying property taxes for use of that property.

If a church also practices good works on that property, like feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless etc. etc. then they could properly be called a charity if charity is more than two-thirds of what they do. The above referenced church does none of those things on that property.

I don't know why you belong to a political party, but your religious beliefs shouldn't have anything to do with it. Part of Jesus's admonition to render to Ceasar the things that are Caesar's was that he was saying that worldly politics has nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven. Now this is all in the New Testament of your Bible.

[mmonk]

103. You can still use reality

against the religious right. Depends on how you state things.

[KittyWampus]

41. Check Out Rabbi Lerner

He has a message that resonates with me at least.

People are starving for MEANING in their lives.

The Left has a tendency to only talk about Economic issues... how if workers all stuck together we'd win..

But the Right uses wedge politics and the reason they can succeed is becasue issues like Family & Values ARE IMPORTANT to people.

Sure, the GOP is using empty rhetoric... but they're the onlyones addressing these issues.

So I'd like to see the Left talk about the importance of Family, Community and the Common Good.

About channeling our Individual Energy towards accomplishing our goals rather than squandering it doing drugs, casual sex and consuming violent media.

I'd like the Left to talk about the anti-social slant that inherent in allowing corporations to run unregulated.

And so on.

[1songbird]

44. By pointng out their hypocrisy.

We need to frame the arguments and not let the religious right do it for us. I consider myself a christian and I am mad as hell at those who have hijacked my religion for political gain. We need to take the argument to them. There are two key issues that the religious right uses as devisive issues abortion and gay rights. Here's some talking points that I think we need to start using:

Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to foist my views on anyone else.
This is directly pertaining to the "Christian Wanna Be Right".

1. If you believe that Abortion is murder then how can you support the death penalty. Southern states have the highest amount of executions.

2. God welcomes all into his tent. Regardless of your race, gender, sexual orientation or what have you. Jesus's best friend was Mary Magdalene.

3. Jesus has already died on the cross for everyone's sins so Christian right you don't have to. So come off of the cross right now darnit.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Yes, if you know your Bible, there's a lot of ammunition

Just off the top of my head: the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the parable of the Pharisee and the publican (i.e. bartender) in the temple, the Beatitudes, Jesus refusing to abide by picky rules for humanitarian reasons (doing the "work" of healing people on the Sabbath), Jesus intervening to stop the administration of the
death penalty, the early Jewish prophets condemning the exploitation of the poor, etc. etc.

You have to create cognitive dissonance using the authority that they accept.

[1songbird]

49. You're right, that's the only way to speak to them.

[Exultant Democracy]

67. Never works for me

but maybe it is my fault for quoting the parts of leviticus about sores and menstration.

[1songbird]

92. "Jeepers dude go to the New Testament quickly. Hehehe"

[Liberator_Rev]

77. There are dozens of passages of scripture, but ...

it's not just the # of passages, it's the IMPORTANCE of the passages in question, and all of that is spelled out in great detail on pages of our site like

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike &
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Democrats


See why we say followers of Christ (as opposed to 'Christians')
belong in the Liberal ranks of the Democratic Party.

[1songbird]

84. This is a great site!

Thanks for putting this information out here. I had never heard of this site but it reaffirms everything that I believe. Great!

[Nadienne]

62. Rootin'-Tootin' "God is Good" e-mail forwards...

Because my family is Catholic, I get a lot of e-mail forwards from them that blame abortion/Clinton/separation-of-Church-and-State for all the problems in this country.

One recent forward from my little sister even blamed Dr. Spock for Columbine, but made no mention of gun control laws.

I pounce, claws out, and quote the Bible at them. Brainwashed fools. But, at least they're not fond of Bush. Now, if I can only get them to open their minds a little more...

[1songbird]

83. "Don't give up."

My father-in-law is a right wing conservative Minister but I take him on every chance I get. This year Christmas dinner will be very interesting. Before dinner is over, I intend to have him voting against Dubya in 2004. Wish me luck.

[Liberator_Rev]

94. Give the preacher this CHALLENGE !!!

Print out the pages of http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Challenge and ask this "Conservative" preacher if that is what he has been teaching throughout his ministry, or if he has been "taking liberties" with the teaching of Christ and become a "flaming Liberal" when it suits his purposes or avoids offending his tight-fisted conservative congregants.

[leftofthedial]

48. crucifixes

guillotines?

[Nashyra]

52. Back to Sharton's message

To beat the Christian right you need the right Christians. I believe in a higher power who I chose to call God and my God has taught me to do the Christian thing, find someone to help everyday no matter who or what they believe in. Lead by example others will follow if your own house is in order. I have some very fundamentalist neighbors and they can never answer the question of what THEY personally have done to help others just what there Church has done, then I remind them that "Christ" said that a church was anywhere that like people congegrated to share his word, not money, buildings or political connections. Usually shuts them up and I am a firm believer in the Separation between Church and State! I hope this post did not offend anyone, since this is a political discussion.

[leftofthedial]

96. good for you--I can't fault your view

I still say get the blinkered sods out of the gene pool. They obviously are damaged goods and are fucking up the planet and threatening the survival of the species.

JMHO

[LittleApple81]

53. I don't think we can. I blame it all in the dumbing down of education.

And the democrats had their hand in this too.

When we wanted to be "all inclusive" and use the "you are OK I am OK" mantra, when all the books had to be politically correct, when people in teaching get degrees in teaching but not in their subject matter, etc. etc. we gave up the "smarting" up of the American people.

All these ideas were not implemented correctly and diluted what students learn in school. Even in high school kids don't read the actual books but reader's digest versions.

Texas and California determine the content of books for the rest of the country. Talk about polarity.

Textbooks are REALLY heavy and are breaking the back of the students, but it is not because of their content... its just big print and lots of pictures.

That combined with the fact that most families needed to be dual career families and parents allowed their children to be babysat by the television...

[elfwitch]

55. Lions?

Just kidding.

[jokerman93]

59. The Christian Fundamentalists

in this country IMO are being used. "True Believers" are among the most malleable personality types. They are predisposed to authoritarian manipulation as long as the "authority" is flattering their narcissitic view of themselves as chosen by their "true" God.

Unfortunately, everyone loses. They'll be just as disenfranchised as anyone else when this country is finally remade in the neocon image.

There may be some great insight into the psychology of the true believer here:

The True Believer : Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements
by Eric Hoffer (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060505915/qid=1068057511/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-8826096-0748854

Hoffer has a number of books listed at the link that are pertinent to this discussion.

[Liberator_Rev]

85. Direct Fundies to http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Fundamentalism

May I recommend that you direct Fundies to http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Fundamentalism , where we challenge them to follow the Liberal teaching which was fundamental and crucial to Jesus Christ (instead of the so-called insignificant "fundamentals" which OTHER PEOPLE have made out to be far more important than they deserve to be.

[amazona]

60. education of the next generation, teaching those who can be taught

Even if someone is a total racist, sometimes they can be brought to see reason if you get them to see that racial conflict is not something they want in their schools or their neighborhoods. But the religious fanatic cannot be educated. In the end, as occurs with every society, the forces of darkness overwhelm the forces of light. Most of human history is the story of an elite few who use the concept of God to keep people ignorant and afraid of fighting back. For every decade of light, how many centuries of darkness? In other words, I don't think we have any evidence that evil -- and religious fanaticism is the worst sort of evil -- has ever been successfully fought back for any but a temporary period of time.

That said, we can and should take steps to do what we can to secure our time, and our children's time. First and foremost is education -- we are actually getting pretty good at getting the word out that hate is uncool. Most sensible people don't want hate and turmoil in their schools or neighborhoods. They want peace to live their own lives and, with a little encouragement towards tolerance, can see the benefits of extending that peace and tolerance to others. The religious right is a minority, albeit a loud minority. For instance, when a man takes on the task of educating family and neighbors by coming out of the closet, a whole family or neighborhood often comes to see the value of gay rights, freedom, and tolerance. A few doubtful words scribbled in Leviticus no longer seem relevant. So educating people and especially children that it's OK for other people to be different is the first step.

I feel the second step is that we should not allow ANY public funding to religious schools and that such schools should be subject to STRINGENT academic testing or else shut down. Any school not showing academic opportunities and standards equal to that of the public school in the same neighborhood should be shut down by federal law. This would allow the many fine Catholic (and there are even a few Protestant schools with actual academic standards) to go on operating, but it would shutter huge numbers of "white flight" schools that exist only to service race hatred, religious fundamentalism, and the flight from the public school system. Unfortunately, there is not one hope in hell that such a law would be passed. Too many people want the "right" to send their children to an inferior school if it guarantees that their child will be free of exposure to children with different skin tones or, heaven forfend, different ideas.

As a third step, we should continue to mock, humiliate, laugh at, and generally point out the un-coolnes and jerkhood of the religious fanatics at every opportunity. Yes, it is rude, but who cares. Laughter can puncture a lot of puffed-up pompous balloons. If you are a loser hiding behind God to promote hatred of women and other peoples, you deserve to get laughed at. I don't care if your name is bin Laden or Bush.

[drb]

64. Your only hope, and our only hope...

...is a massive revival of the Real Christian Church, a community of...

acceptance instead of exclusion,
tolerance instead of judgement,
loving your enemies instead of bombing them,
caring for the poor as opposed to sucking up to the rich,
and love instead of hate.

Unless the Real Church shows it's head in a big way, the freakin' Pharisees who are pretending to be the church will screw it up real big, real soon.

Your prayers are urgently needed.

[Liberator_Rev]

99. DRB, that's what we are all about !

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike


See why we say followers of Christ (as opposed to 'Christians')
belong in the Liberal ranks of the Democratic Party.

[Liberator_Rev]

100. That's what we do, drb !

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike


See why we say followers of Christ (as opposed to 'Christians')
belong in the Liberal ranks of the Democratic Party.

[denverbill]

65. Don't support wealthy people that support the religious right.

Coors for example is one of the biggest supporters of religious right groups, as well as conservative groups. You're helping to finance the religious right if you drink Coors.

[LittleApple81]

68. The problem is the majority of the products we consume are

made/marketed by "people" that support the religious right because they know they are the ignorant crowd that will support anything as long as their vision of what Christianity is supported.

So can we stop getting dressed, eating, riding our cars, etc. etc.

Do you have alternate sources for all the basic necessities of life?

[amazona]

71. alternatives for clothes...

This might not work for men, since other men apparently never let go of their clothes, but I have no trouble buying great clothes at thrift stores, consignment, etc. In this way, I can do my small part to refuse support to cotton growing (pesticides), child and slave labor (it seems most new clothes are produced overseas), etc.

Eating is tougher. We all have to eat. But you can do little things. I never order pizza because it is too difficult to remember which chains support anti-abortion hysteria, so if I want Italian food, I make my own. Try to visit your local farmer's market or truck farm to give more of a share to the farmer and less to Big Grocery Store. Little stuff like that.

I don't think we can fully pull out of the economy but we can put the hurt on them.

I agree with your main point...Manufacturers, retailers, etc. DO often support "conservative" ignorant idiots. Unfortunately, I believe the reason to be because conservative ignorant idiots are, by definition, more brain-washable (that's how they got to be unthinking fundies after all) and so they are more susceptible to advertising for every little thing like pizza, the newest lipstick, etc. I mean, I would hope it isn't progressives who are paying $8 for a lipstick. It makes me wonder about people sometimes.

[spooky3]

76. Buy from companies owned or run by people known to be

Democrats or progressives. Ben & Jerry's, Levi's (used to be), Fannie Mae, etc. Check out companies' leaders out on the web.

It's not a perfect measure, but you could look for companies with female CEOs or top managers. I apologize for seeming to stereotype as there are many exceptions, but most female professionals and managers are more likely to be Democrats than their male corporate counterparts (e.g., Martha Stewart, though she may not be everyone's ideal to support, she is a Dem). They believe in Dem values to a greater extent (e.g., pro-environment). And, they know the discrimination they and other women faced getting there, and they know which party has done more to work for fairness.

[info being]

66. We need to actively piss them off

enough tip-toeing...let's give them reasons to be outraged and get them focused on that so their attention is diverted from trying to rule the world.

[dpl202]

69. The first thing I would do is

try to get you to not think of it as needing to "stop the religious right". There is supposed to be free speech, right to assemble, etc...

Fact is, a large number of people who do not consider themselve's the "religious right" support the same issues. So, instead of thinking of stopping ideas, it would probably be better to come up with an articulate, calm, logical set of ideas and options to sway the minds of rational, level headed, average people.

If you think of it as a war where you must destroy your enemy, you'll create more enemies.

[Terwilliger]

72. SHOOT 'EM!

or, so I've been told

[RuB]

73. Aligning Christians with the Republican party is to do harm

to the Democratic Party. The misguided assumption that only Republicans who are Christians represent America is to relegate the Democratic Party to permantent minority status. Many many Christian Democrat's agree with everything the BiBle says and still find it offensive to vote Republican. I realize only a minority of Democrats hate Christians and everyone has a right to voice their opinion. I find Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed extremely offensive along with all religious people who claim only the Republican party reflect what the Bible values. Having said that, Christ never said He'd take away the memory of sin, only the guilt of sin. I wish the media would allow christian's who are Democrats the chance to stand up on the national stage and defend the Democratic Christian ideas on how this country should run but that won't happen. Republican bigots would shut them down in a second. The national psyche has bought into the fact that Jesus died and rose again only for Republicans.

[The_Gopher]

74. with large dildoes and heavy metal music

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

87. The Christian fundamentalists are on the cusp of

taking over our government. The Islamic fundamentalists are not our problem here in our government. And these religious extremists in our government want to go to the ME now and convert all those Islamic fundamentalists who of course hate us more than ever, not because "they hate our freedoms" but because we invaded their country and blew up and killed a lot of their people.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. The "Christian" fundamentalists are a problem because

they create a closed-off world for their adherents, with their own schools, their own social clubs for all ages, their own sports teams, their own summer camps, their own business directories, their own counseling services, and most importantly, their own media, including books, magazines, newspapers, music, and films. Some of the fundies are so afraid of exposure to "the devil's work" that they avoid all media that were not produced by religiously sanctioned sources.

This indoctrination is invariably right wing. Some of the suburban megachurches in Oregon put out voters' guides which advocated voting only for Republican candidates and right-wing ballot measures.

They are growing because they take root in new suburbs, where they are often the only gathering spot for the entire community. They offer one-stop socializing and recreation for harried suburbanites living in isolated trophy houses and working in isolated office parks. For people who grew up in insecure circumstances or with little guidance from their families, they offer ready-made Answers. They offer a total information environment.

[Kinkistyle]

90. Because they are LOUD and VERY ACTIVE.

Yeah, they might not be the the majority of people in the country, but one need just look at the whole teaching Evolution in school issue that we've had to deal with lately to see that they are extremely pro-active and loud. It seems like there are alot of them because each one does like 100 peoples worth of proselytizing.

[mmonk]

93. How can we stop the religious right?

Mandatory brain transplants. Or just give them one.

[Resistance Is Futile]

95. Special role

It much be appriciated that the religious right plays a special role in American politics. The religious right is to the Republican core (i.e. the top 0.333% income bracket and other major economic rent seekers) what the brownshirts were to the nazis. The religious right only survives as a political force because it is a convinent source of brainwashed sheep who are easily lead to support the Republican upper crust in their quest to enrich themselves with public money. Break the religious right from is funding source in the corporate right and the religious right will collapse like a house of cards.

[Pez]

97. smear campaign against god

tell every little kid you come across there is no god. it might take a while, but eventually the tides will turn.

[Resistance Is Futile]

98. Meanwhile

The zealots will form a rampaging mob and kill you...

Messing with the minds of freeper offspring can be deadly.