Why I Like Bill Clinton

[absyntheNsugar]

Now to start off, let me say I've never been a fan of the DLC, or the conservative push the party has taken. I never really agreed much with Clinton's policies, and feel he gave in big time with welfare and the way he dumped the healthcare issue.

However, despite all this, I cannot argue with sucess. 8 years of peace and prosperity, growth and good times. Two cities near where I live spell it all out: East Palo Alto and Oakland. For those of you familiar with Northern California, for years these two cities were the "wrong side of the tracks." These cities were riddled with high crime rates, unemployment, rampant drug abuse, gang violence - you name it. Then in the 90's something started to change. Unemployment and crime went down while home prices and the standard of living went up. These two cities had money for what seemed like the first time in history (OK....Oakland had good times in the 1950's, it just seemed that way.)

You can attribute this to many things, but the big one is Clinton. His economic policies reversed a downward trend and sparked a hiring spree in the private sector unseen before in history. Low-income workers were training in the tech industry. Not only that, they took advantage of the increased resources and went back to school.

We can thank Clinton for all of this.

[GainesT1958]

1. And if we care at all about doing "DUty" next year...

We won't hesitate to remind anybody we know (whom we know is not already with us) about this. That's why I also like CLinton's campaign manager, and his favorite saying of 1992:

"It's the ECONOMY, STUPID!" :kick:

B-)

[lancdem]

2. Nice post

:)

[ArkDem]

3. I miss all the democratic

senators and representatives, as well.

[MadHound]

4. Clinton was a charmer, and incredibly charismatic, but. . .

He didn't cause the high-tech boom to come about, he was just a victim of fortunate timing. Virtually any person could have been President and the high tech boom would have occured. And if you look at the matter a bit more closely, Clinton's enactment of NAFTA, FTAA, and H-1B visas actually brought about the high tech bust. With well paying high tech jobs now either going overseas, or being filled by H-1B visa workers who labor for less wages(and send those dollars out of country), you can say that Clinton killed the high tech goose laying the silicon egg.

And don't be fooled by all of those headlines in the ninties, or the self-serving nostalgia books about the Clinton years. The only place the economy was truly growing was in the financial markets, a market bubble that took a bunch of suckers for a ride. We're still paying for those jolly good times now, aren't we?

In reality, the average person's standard of living fell at a 3.1% APR, the gap between the rich and the rest of us grew to historic record highs, the concentration of wealth and power fell into fewer and fewer hands, the social safety net was ripped to shreds, while well paying manufacturing jobs fled overseas to be replaced by low paying McJobs, bringing into being the new societal class called the working poor.

Meanwhile behind the scenes of "peace" that Clinton era pundits liked to project, Clinton's policies of embargo and thrice weekly bombings in Iraq killed 400,000 innocents, a Sudanese aspirin factory was bombed, and big chunks of Clinton's Kosovo policy were bungled, causing untold thousands of lifes to be lost.

All in all, Clinton's eight years of "peace and prosperity" were a smoke and mirrors show that merely set the stage for the corporate/right wing take over that followed. If Clinton's policies are to be considered as "peace and prosperity" then I think we've had about enough of that we can stand. Anymore and we're likely to die from it. It all looked good on the front page and in sound bites, but like all smoke and mirror shows do, once the lights come up, one is left grasping at vague nothings, wishing to hang onto an illusion.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. yep

Prepare to be flamed!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Yeah ...Clinton Sucked....

Happy.....
















NOT

[MadHound]

26. You know, your post can be a metaphor for Clinton's presidency

Long on fightin' words,
Even longer on blank spaces

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. All Things Are Relative........

Spam looks good pretty good when you're starving....


The Clinton team look like princes compared to the junta in the White House now....

[MadHound]

32. But don't you get it yet?

Clinton laid the groundwork for the current miscreant. Can you say soft money campaign contributions. A tactic invented and first used by Clinton.

And no, any team who allows jobs to flee our country, enables the shredding of our social safety net, and aids and enables the buyout of our governmnet by big business doesn't look like princes. I don't care if their standing next to Satan, they still look like evil money driven corporate whores to me.

We like to say around here about Bush that he is the Emperor with No Clothes. That phrase can be applied equally to Clinton as well.

[swinney]

54. Clinton was great great great read these numbers

No one can evaluate the numbers of the Clinton years and not conlude he was great. He hired the best in economics. He presented the most honest budgets in history according to Newt and CBO June O'Neill.

Clinton knew more about Governance than any president in history. It was a lifetime study for him.

He did it. He did it. His policies did it.

He made 58 promises in his book "Putting People First". He took action on 56 in his first two years.
--------------------SHOCK & AWE------------------------
----------DEMOCRATS CREATE WEALTH AND JOBS-----------
1.From Harding In 1921 to Bush in 2003
2.Democrats held White House for 40 years and Republicans for 42.5 years.
3.Democrats created 75,820,000 net new jobs and Republicans 36,440,000.
4.Per Year Average—Democrats 1,825,200---Republicans 856,400.
5.Republicans had 9 presidents during the period and 6 had depression or recession.
6.DOW—grew by 52% more under Democrats.
7.GDP—grew by 26.4% more under Democrats.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comparing Democrat’s hero-CLINTON--versusRepublican’s hero--REAGAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.JOBS—grew by 24% more underClinton
2.GDP---Grew by 64% more under Clinton
3.DOW—Grew by 500% more under Clinton(5 times as much)
4.Clinton increased spending by 28%---Reagan by 80%
5.Clinton increased debt by 28%--Reagan by 187%
6. Clinton got a hugh surplus—Reagan increased deficits by 112%
Clarence swinney [e-mail]

Sources—Bureau of Labor Statistics(BLS.Gov)--Economic Policy Institute (EPI.org)
Sources—Global & World Almanacs from 1980 to 2003
Sources—www.the-hamster.com chart taken from NY Times
Sources—National Archives History on Presidents. www.nara.gov

Comments to [e-mail] or P.O. Box 3411-Burlington NC-27215


The Wash. Post compiled 162 campaign promises and an evaluation showed he took action on 96% in first two years.

He had, according to Congressional Quarterly, the second best record for getting his legislation passed in Congress during his first two years. LBJ had best.

Facts. Clinton was great, Undeniable.

I read many misstatements in these posts on this thread. Not intentional but lack of detailed knowledge.
[e-mail]

[shrike]

7. Enough with the "Sudanese aspirin factory"

Bin laden was part owner of that enterprise and one of the plant managers bunked in Bin laden's personal digs. I doubt they were just making pharmaceuticals. After the attack the company hired one of the best PR firms in Washington to heap scorn on the Clinton administration. They were probably hoping to get some money and may have, for all I know.

Clinton made enough (serious) mistakes without blaming that nonsense on him.

[MadHound]

11. Actually that's all it was, an aspirin factory

And while they might have been funneling some of the profits to bin Laden, that still doesn't excuse the fact that dozens of innocents were killed.

And no, I don't get my facts from some vague PR firm, I go to the source, the Red Cross, UN, and other NGOs on the ground, cleaning up Clinton's mess.

[shrike]

36. someone here posted a link about the so-called aspirin

factory quite a while ago; hopefully that nice person will do so again. Unfortunately, I didn't save it. I no longer buy the "innocent victim" bit peddled by that "vague" PR firm. Time to let that chestnut go.

[Wellong]

13. I'm gonna have to do some searching

but if memory serves me right, it was nothing more than an aspirin factory. The owners of it sued over the bombing, and in an American court won and were awarded a huge amount of money to compensate them for the loss.

[leetrisck]

8. Doncha just love it - love him or hate him

he was sure as hell a much better person and president, leader, statesman, etc. that what we have now. Nothing could begin to compare with the evil surrounding everything at the "Slime House" now.

[MadHound]

15. No, Clinton was just another coroporate whore

He just applied his make-up better.

[ProfessorGAC]

9. I Would Dispute Your Statistics

The real GDP growth of the period 1994 - 1999 exceed any other 6 year period in U.S. history aside from the boom of the WWII years. It averaged 3.91% real growth (indexed to 1989 dollars, which was the indexing standard at the time.)

Using the median values (which are more relevant since Bill Gates and the like skew the average badly), the SAUS numbers indicate an overall rise in standard of living of 2.74% per annum due to the actual decrease in CPI values. (Although that doesn't, admittedly, include housing costs.)

Productivity per worker values went up substantially, and with the full employment experienced, the overall productivity of the macroeconomy exploded. Real productivity increases are not smoke and mirrors. More goods and services were produced by an increase that was greater than the increase in dollars chasing them. That's why almost negligible inflation.

I'm not arguing with you about your conclusions, but merely suggesting that there is a disconnect in the numbers. My conclusions, based upon the SAUS numbers is very different than yours. The differences in our political views about Clinton aren't relevant. We can differ there, but we should be able to agree on the numbers. There should be only one set of valid econometric data.
The Professor

Edited for typos.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

12. help me out professor

Your 2.74 rise in the standard of living - how is the standard of living figured exactly? I was under the impression that real wages DID go down. And while the prices of VCRs and computers and the like certainly went down, real estate, health care, and other major costs went up.

Also, what does productivity have to do with your average American's living standard? Increasing in productivity can often lead to layoffs and more unemployment, correct?

I just wonder if the statistics you quote correlate to the average Americans living standard at all.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. They Were Two Different Issues

First, i think if one looks at the lower 2/3rds of employed people, there was a real increase in wages in both the manufacturing and service sectors.

Secondly, the issue of producitivty was addressing the "smoke and mirrors" aspect. Conservatives regularly toss out canards about the "bubble" and the like. The growth was real and the overpriced tech stocks had nothing to do with that. Inflated stock prices play zero part in the calculations of macroeconomic growth.

So, i'm sorry if i confused you with the two different issues. I should have been more clear.
The Professor

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

34. 2/3 of workers had a real increase in wages?

Am I understanding this correctly? Where can I get those figures?

[MadHound]

14. Where I get my statistics.

I grabbed these stats from the book "Wealth and Democracy" written by the emminent economist Kevin Phillips. I also grab some from Jim Hightower's works(who has a fine fact checking team). I would encourage all to read these books, they are quite eye-opening.

Face it people, we are living in the new Gilded Age, where it doesn't matter if the person in the White House has a D or R behind their name. They all are working for big business.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Once Again, Not Arguing the Political Aspects

I don't disagree with your concerns about the "gilded age". We currently have a poisoned corporate culture in this country with a very near term focus and a lack of desire to extend the corporate responsibilities beyond shareholder gratification.

However, i would dispute the conclusions in Phillips' book to his face should i meet him in economic circles. (I know many dozens, if not hundreds, of other economists and analysts.) I've met some very big names, but have never met Kevin.

The difference, as i see it, is that part of my career is gleaning information from data directly. I'm not in a position to see what other economists think, and then do the analysis. I have to do it first, then draw my conclusions. If i disagree with some emminent people in the field, that's ok.

He would probably read some of my papers (which have all been published in esoteric academic journals) and disagree with me. I'm be ok with that. As long as someone reads them, i guess.

Please keep in mind, that i'm not trying to counter your political concerns. I share them. I just arrived at them for different reasons.
The Professor

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Kevin Phillips Is Not An Economist By Training... He's A Pop Historian...

Quote Samuelson


Quoute Stiglitz


Quote Krugman


to get my attention....

[MadHound]

46. Let's see here

Having degrees in history, economy, working in presidential administrations, writing serious history books such as "The Cousins' Wars", being a serious commentator and columnist for magazines, television, and newspapers, winning numerous awards for his writing makes him a "pop historian" in your opinion?

Right, and in your opinion Einstein was a probably a piker too.

I know numerous economists and historians who use his texts for teaching, give me a break. You may not like his message, but don't denigrate the messenger.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. Alan Greenspan, "Mr. President...

your commitment to fiscal discipline, which, as you know, and indeed have indicated, has been instrumental in achieving what in a few weeks....will be the longest expansion in the nation's history." January 4, 2000.

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volker, Audacity Fall, 1994......"The deficit has come down, and I give the Clinton Administration and President Clinton himself a lot of credit for that. He did something about it, fast.

"Clinton's 1993 budget cuts, which reduced red ink by more than $400 billion over 5 years, sparked a major drop in interest rates that helped boost investment in all the equiptment and systems that brought forth the New Age economy of technological innovation and rising productivity." Business Week, May 19, 1997

I believe this will lead to a recession next year. This is the Democrat Machine's recession, and each one of them will be held personally accountable. Rep. Newt Gingrich, republican press conference. August 5, 1993.


When Clinton took office, nearly 10 million Americans were unemployed. Under Clinton the American economy generated 22.88 MILLION new jobs. More jobs than ever before created under a single administration. More jobs than Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. together created in twelve years. And 91% of the Clinton jobs were in the private sector.

POVERTY

If generating jobs is the heart of the economy, reducing poverty is it's soul. Under Clinton's policies, 8.2 MILLION Americans were lifted out of poverty. Enough to populate all of New York City. Clinton's economic policies caused a 21% reduction in the poverty rate---the greatest reduction since Lyndon Johnson's Great Society and the strongest economy of the 60's. Under George H. W. Bush, the number of Americans suffering in poverty INCREASED by 6.5 million. Clinton's economic policies "lifted all boats". Both the African American and Hispanic poverty rates fell to their lowest levels on record! The number of African American children in poverty fell nearly 33%, to an all time low. President Clinton raised 4.2 million children out of poverty.

This information is from "IT'S STILL THE ECONOMY, STUPID" by Paul Begala.

There's SO much more in the book about what President Clinton did for this country. I'm sure it's still available for purchase.

edited for REALLY bad spelling! :)

[MadHound]

33. That's nice, a self serving book from a Clinton advisor

Real objective, I'm sure, and real factual. Why don't you try a few more realistic sources instead of wasting time with Clinton sychophants. It might, just might take the blinders from your eyes.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. Buy the book.

He lists all of the sources he used for the FACTUAL economic information....LOOK IT UP. Very simple. What? Facts bother you?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

37. I will give credit to Clinton for balancing the budget

Debt is just another form of tax - and Republicans are the biggest taxers of all. I wish Democrats would push this issue more.

[Nederland]

50. Hard to Believe

In reality, the average person's standard of living fell at a 3.1% APR

Falling 3.1% a year? In other words, you're saying that during the eight years of Clinton the average person saw their standard of living fall by nearly 25%? Do you have a link for this, because that seems flat out wrong to me...

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. The man was an amazing president.

Look at everything he accomplished and he did it while being harassed for the 8 years he was in office. IMAGINE what the man could have done had the republicans let him be president full time. I love Clinton. I miss him more than words can say. :(

Thanks for the post, BTW.

[MadHound]

10. And what, exactly did he do?

The man was all talk and little action. Gays in the military? Waffled into a solution that many say is worse than the problem it was supposed to solve. Universal health care? Came up with a watered down milque-toast proposal, only to abandon it in the face of a small amount of opposition(and this when polls were ranking in the high sixties for universal health care). Campaign finance reform? Ooh this is good, Clinton creates the illegal, immoral, and possibly unconstitutional new funding source called soft money. All the better for corporations to buy out our government with. And the list goes on and on. Compared to Clinton, even Carter comes across as forceful and resolute, a man of action. And compared to such Dem greats as JFK, FDR, and even LBJ, Clinton doesn't even get out of the gate, much less cross the finish line.

Clinton talked a good game, and was fortunate to come to power at the perfect time to ride the high tech boom. But for the most part that's all he was, talk.

[absyntheNsugar]

16. All I can say is look at Oakland

It was a wasteland before 92. Yes, I'm not a big fan of his policies, or how he gutted welfare. But he did increase SBA's, which in turn cranked up the R&D budgets. That, plus the benefits of NAFTA promoted an increase in hiring.

As for NAFTA, I'm not going to argue that here. NAFTA is not a perfect trade policy, and is very harmful in places. However, it is not all evil either. Like any policy, has some very well thought out provisions and some ill-thought out provisions. Had we Gore in office today, I have no doubt many of the bugs with NAFTA would be worked out.

[Wellong]

18. Gore?

Why would Gore as president today have worked out the bugs? Gore was one of the biggest supporters on NAFTA and basically the admin point man on it. He personally debated Perot on the matter and handed his bad hair cut to him.

[MadHound]

19. And where are those Oakland jobs now?

Gone, like a wil-o-wisp to India, Mexico, or taken by H-1B visa holders who work at a much lower wage. Clinton didn't create the high-tech boom, or even nuture it to last beyond his presidency. He killed it with his policies and we are all paying the price now, including Oakland.

[absyntheNsugar]

43. And who's in the white house now?

Not Clinton.

Arguing economics probably wont do it for me since I most likely agree with you. I'm as "New Deal Dem" as they come. I think FDR was our greatest president, because of and not in spite of the social programs and works projects.

However, even a bad system can be made to work with the right managers. That's what Clinton did - took a bad system (Democrat Lite, or whatever) and made it work. True, kinda like adding a lawnmower engine to a Porsche, but it will run.

Hell, even New Deal economics wouldn't work if the wrong person pushed it.

[Catherine Vincent]

27. Besides being charming and charismatic, is there anything Clinton did in

your eyes worth mentioning?

[MadHound]

31. Positive or negative?

Positive things about the Clinton presidency are few and far between. I consider him at best to be a placemarker president.

His negatives though are many and severe. I damn him most for remaking over a once proud party into nothing more than 'Pug-lite, groveling at the feet of big business. Due to Clinton and his DLC/DNC buddies millions of people, poor, desperate, and ordinary folk like you and me are left voiceless in a political void. He sold our country out to the corporations for his thirty pieces of silver and fifteen minutes of fame. No, he didn't do all of this by himself, but he did enable this process and hasten it along.

Helping to bring about the two party/one corporate master political philosophy is definitely a revolution in our society, but no good will ever come from it. The last time this happened it took two courageous presidents, a Great Depression, and many decades to recover and heal the damage.

[Catherine Vincent]

35. Sorry. I meant to say "..positive"

I think we've heard enough of your negatives.

[RichM]

17. You're kidding yourself. Clinton was a charming fraud who handed the

country over to the right wing without so much as putting up a fight. The fact that whiny Democrats pine away for this phony simply illustrates that Democrats don't know which end is up.

Don't you understand? He destroyed your party. By the time he was finished, the Democrats had surrendered all the media to the Republicans, had lost both houses of Congress, & wealth inequality in the US was as bad as in the 1890's. After Clinton, it became accepted for Democrats to be humiliated on the nightly news as a matter of course. The party no longer even knows what it stands for.

That prosperity was phony, just like Clinton himself. The rising Bay Area home prices you are so happy about represent runaway real estate speculation -- just about as healthy a thing as the stock market bubble.

Clinton saw that he could become president by being willing to sell out everything liberals had ever stood for. He did this by skillfully sounding like a liberal on stage, while pursuing policies scarcely any different than Daddy Bush would have chosen. And if this wasn't bad enough - he didn't even have the respect for the trust people had placed in him, to resist a little tart like Monica, when he knew his enemies were searching desperately for any excuse at all to bring him down.

He hasn't had the guts or decency to oppose the Iraq war. He went out of his way to help Bush Jr out of a tough jam with the press in July. He was almost personally ruined by the VRWC, yet never exposed them to the public.

The Dem Party won't survive another such "hero."

[Wellong]

20. Clinton sabatoge

I often hear wingnuts talk about how the last thing the Clintons want is Bush defeated in 2004. They claim the Clintons want the dem nominee to lose to clear the way for Hillary in 2008, since she couldnt run against an incumbent democrat president. I have always found the idea far fetched, but sometimes things happen to make me think for a second. But then I quickly say "it can't be."

What say you?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. yep

prepare for flaming!

[absyntheNsugar]

23. If it was all phony

Why is it my coworker has an Engineering degree now, and in 92 he was on welfare, no hope in sight and not even a HS Diploma?

Why is it Oakland has a downtown to be proud of, that businesses are fighting to move into?

The man saved our party - if we had run anyone else Bush I would have won the election, and the Democratic Party would be even more lost. The reason the party is the laughing stock has a name: Fox News. You could also throw in Rush Limbaugh, but I think Fox is by far the worse culprit.

[Wellong]

48. Saved the party?

I would love to see some evidence of this. Under Clinton we lost the House for the first time in 40 years. Lost the Senate. And the GOP gained a massive majority of Governorships. And for the first time in history, a majority of state legislatures were controlled by the GOP.

Great job saving the party. I wonder what would have happened had he not saved the party.

[absyntheNsugar]

53. Please see my thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=648533

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. What If I Presented The Argument That >70% of Americans Like

Watered Down Republicanism or Democratic Lite and we must pretend to give it to them while getting as much social progress as we can....

Clinton was being pragmatic...

Unemployment is at 6.1%. Even if say that number is bogus and you contend the real unemploynment rate is more like 10% that still means 90% of Americans have jobs...

Same thing with the poverty rate.... As dire as you think things are now there are still are alot more "haves" than "have nots"...

What makes you think these folks want to junk a system that works fairly well for them....

Even Joe Bumstead at the corner 7-11 thinks he will be the manager some day....

The myth or reality that you can do better tomorrow than you did today sustains support for our economic sytem...

From an objective viewpoint I just don't see the historical predicate for a Green alternative...

If the Democratic party disappeared tomorrow the R's would win elections with 70% majorities in most areas of the country....

If Americans didn't junk capitalism in 1932 they ain't about to junk it now....

It's just the way things are...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. wow - sounds like "necessary illusions"

"Even Joe Bumstead at the corner 7-11 thinks he will be the manager some day....The myth or reality that you can do better tomorrow than you did today sustains support for our economic sytem..."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. The Horatio Alger Myth is Alive And Well

and that's why any attempts to radically alter our economic system are doomed to fail....

Even in the "hood" that myth is alive and well... Just some of those folks choose alternative routes to get there.....

Think about Don King's "Only In America" shtick....

Rich folks and poor folks love that Horatio Alger dogfood and that love will doom any efforts for massive restructuring.....

[MadHound]

42. I would say that you were foolish to believe that statistic

Total unemployment is not just the only problem, can you say underemployment, or better yet, the working poor?

And for now, there are more haves than have nots, but more and more are becoming havenots in our society, along with a shrinking middle class. We're all well on our way to becoming corporate serfs.

Yes, but even Joe Bumstead realizes the diminishing American Dream. Today he can dream of being the store manager. Forty years ago he could realisticly dream of owning it.

And fortunately more and more people are waking up and seperating myth from reality, and are not liking what they see. Their options shrinking, their voices muffled. All while being told to buy more crap, with less money(or credit:eyes:), and sacrifice their children on the alter of corporate greed.

And while there might not be historical precident for the Green platform, there is certainly a popular cry for it. 80+% of the people want real CFR, with publicly funded elections. It is in the high sixties or low seventies for wanting universal health care. Mid seventies for wanting more corporate oversight and regulations. And on and on. The American people are in all actuality quite liberal, they just don't want to be identified as such, since the rightwing hate media has villified it.

Yes, that would be tomorrow, but given a little time, I think the Greens or some other such liberal party to rise to power. And they wouldn't have those darn corporate shackles like the Dems wear now.

And actually, if you look at the New Deal, Americans were junking capitalism to an extent. They just weren't told that was what was happening.

And if you think that's the way things are, put down the Kool-Aid and stop buying the spin. Do your own research and remove your blinders.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Americans Never Wanted To Junk Capitalism....

Read Arthur Schlessinger's seminal work on the New Deal... He convincingly argues that the New Deal was a conservative program.... It conserved capitalism by ridding it of it's excessess....


No matter how many statistics you throw at me it's emperically obvious that most Americans are vested enough in the system not to junk it....


If there is this great groundwell of progressive sentiment out there why hasn't it been tapped in two hundred fourteen years?

[RichM]

49. The New Deal WAS conservative. It saved capitalism, by giving up a

little to conserve a lot. It made significant concessions at a time when NOT to do so might conceivably have led to a revolution.

Are most Americans "vested enough in the system not to junk it?" Or is it just that their understanding of the system's workings has been anesthetized & carefully molded by the propaganda saturating every aspect of our culture, so that they have no ability left to imagine alternatives?

Why hasn't the great groundswell of progressive sentiment out there been tapped in 214 years? Here are several reasons; no doubt there are others.

- First, the 2-party system is a very clever illusory device that most people simply do not see through. Having 2 parties that both represent the interests of the oligarchy, but billing one of them as "the peoples' party," & having it positioned always about 3% to the left of the financier-industrialist party, is a stroke of genius. This mechanism lends stability by siphoning off discontent, since unhappy people can always say, "Well, now we must work to elect a Democrat." As long as they do that, the system is in no danger whatever of serious change.

- Second, all imperialist countries live pretty well, & this is in no small measure off the backs of Third World exploitation. Many of lowly station in this country still live a lot better than those of similar station in El Salvador. Yet our media & culture guarantee that most people here do not see (and do not care about) the connection between their good life, & the misery elsewhere. The combination of these factors produces a feeling of gratitude about the advantages of living here, without questioning exactly WHERE those advantages come from.

The American system only works with an extremely ignorant population, trained to be obedient, to consume, and to watch television. All the noise we grow up with about having a "free press" and "free speech" and being the "defender of democracy" -- all this stuff is extremely effective propaganda. The subtleness of the mechanisms of deceit combined with the intentional dumbing of the population are a potent brew, & have managed to hold things together. So far, anyway...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. As Usual Your Diagnosis Is Spot On... Our Cures Might Be A Bit Different..

Once I left grad school I became alot more cynical on the amount of change that can be achieved....

After reading your post I went to get one of my essays from POS6045.... I only saved the papers that I got high grades on.... -:)


It was a review of "Does Big Business Rule America" .... "Does Big Business Rule America" was a collection of essays critical of Charles Lindblom's "Politics And Markets" where he wrote that big businesses inordinate influence was an impediment to structural change....

Of course I sided with Lindblom...

Here it goes.....

Some excerpts....

It is an impenetrable fact that politicians must create a healthy domestic, as well as foreign atmosphere for big business to prosper. For the most part, a politician's fate is inextricably wed to the health of the economy. It is absurd to assume that a politician who enjoys his job will consciously create impediments for big business. One of the first acts of John Kennedy in his position as president was to assure the leaders of business he was one of them.

The tolerance of the American public for corporate capitalism is manifested in the fact that there are few, if any dissenters in elected office in the United States. The debate that exists today between the Democrats and the Republicans is about who can provide the most propitious atmosphere for big business...

Alot of words, Rich, but then as now there are major structural impediments as well as historical and cultural realities that make true structural reform allusive...

[ArkDem]

45. These numbers don't lie

During Clinton's administration, the Democrats lost:
- 48 seats in the House
- 8 seats in the Senate
- 11 governorships
- 1,254 state legislative seats
- Control of 9 legislatures
In addition 439 elected Democrats had joined the Republican Party while only three Republican officeholders had gone the other way.
While Democrats had been losing state legislative seats on the state level for 25 years, the loss during the Clinton years was striking. In 1992, the Democrats controlled 17 more state legislatures than the Republicans. After November 2000, the Republicans controlled one more than the Democrats. It was the first time since 1954 that the GOP had controlled more state legislatures than the Democrats (they tied in 1968). Among other things, this gave the Republican more control over redistricting.
In fact, no Democratic president since the 19th century suffered such an electoral disintegration of his party as did Clinton.

[absyntheNsugar]

47. Jeez...ArkDem

makes the same point (much more effectively I might add) without the attacks...

[swinney]

52. 113 reasons why I admire Bill Clinton

Tried to get Universal Health Care
National Health Care Costs rising at 10% per annum. Cut to 3%
Deficit Reduction Package
Crime Bill
100,000 cops on street—crime down down down
Welfare Reform-- Mend do not end. GOP helped bit time
80% increase in child welfare payments
Job Growth-Record 236,000 per month. (Reagan/Bush 167,000)
Largest percentage of Americans working in history
Largest Home Ownership in history
Record number of small business formations
Tax Cut for 15 million working families
Family and Medical Leave Act
Defense Reinvest and Conversion—Bush enjoying weapons created by Clinton
Direct loan programs for students
Guts to put promises in a book "Putting People First"-58 promises in book. Took action on 56 in first two years.
Second best record in history for getting legislation through Congress in first to years. LBJ number one.
Reinvented Government—cut payroll
Fewest number of civilians on federal payroll in 36 years
Attacked cop killing nasty rifle association.
Attacked the cancer inducing tobacco industry
Promoted a global effort to ban abusive forms of child labor
Loan 12.8 Billion to Mexico. Made 800 Million profit. Kept Mexico afloat.
Wash. Post kept list of campaign promises. 162. Took action on 96% in first two years.
Took on prejudice toward other Americans in military
Took on his own Southern Baptist Church
Hard smart work in Middle East and Bosnia-Kosovo
Honored with all of the following:
Dove of Peace Award
Rabin-Peres Peace Award
Gandhi Peace Award
Order of Good Hope Award
Nominated for Nobel Peace Award
Northern Ireland Peace Agreement
Lifeaholics of America Award for Quarter Century "Working for a Life Not Just A Living".
First President to visit Northern Ireland
Cleanup of Toxic sites. Record
Increasing weekly earnings
Shoo Shoo Saddam get away from Kuwait
Stopping Haitians from drowning enroute to freedom
First to visit South Africa
First to make a determined effort to help the African continent come together and grow together
Taxing top 1.2% of very wealthy to get Zoom Zoom Boom economy
Stopping Republicans in the House from raiding Medicare of 181 Billion
Stopping Republicans raid on Medicaid
Stopping Republicans raid on education
Stopping Republicans attack on environment
Largest increase in Education funding since GI Bill
Increased funding for Head Start
Nafta.. A success until the Peso went south
Submitting 8 budgets close to rate of inflation
Brady Bill
Gaat
Assault Weapons Ban
Telling Japan "You take our auto parts or we will apply tariffs on you
California Desert Protection
Forest Management Plan for Northwest
Restoration of Florida Everglades
Preservation of land in Utah
Major increase in funding for homeless
Motor Voter Act
Lobbying Reform Effort. Handshake with Newt who reneged
Pressure to get Campaign Finance Reform.
National Export Strategy. Unbelievable success.
Over 250 Trade pacts
Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Pact
Summit of Americas
Super 301
Chemical Weapons Ban Treaty.
Bottom Up Review of Military
Agreement with Cuba to stop flow of immigrants to USA.
Ameri-Corps
Reduced Nuclear Threat Around the World
Community Banking Act
FEMA used as an active participant and a leader in disaster relief
Tax on well off social security beneficiaries
100,000 new teachers effort
5,000 new classroom effort
50% of classes thru K-12 on internet
Fourth Graders improvement on world tests
Lifetime Learning Opportunity Program
Controls on Spending and Borrowing
Pension Protection Act of 1994
Record high consumer confidence
Very, very, very low Misery Index
National Agenda on Racial Prejudices
First to get African-American unemployment under 10%
Balanced Budget
Record Corporate profits
Record Bank profits
Record Savings and Loan profits
Never whining despite non-sop smears and attacks
Not having a Mean Bone in his body per Historian David Maraniss
Not knowing how to hate
Classing others as "opponents" not "enemies"
Inviting your attackers to the White House functions
Inviting your defeated opponent Bob Dole to visit troops at Christmas
A national attack on hate crimes
Fighting to protect "legal" immigrants from Republicans in the House.
Fighting hard for Fast Track legislation
Kennedy and Kassenbaum Portability of Insurance
Lowest interest rates in 30 years
Allowing millions of homeowners to refinance home loans at lower (much) rates
Lowest unemployment in 25 years
Lowest inflation in 25 years
Lowest welfare rolls in 27 years
Lowest crime Rates in 25 years
First balanced budget sent to Congress in 29 years
Protecting worker pensions (repeat?)
Opposed ban on "Late Term Abortions"
A stock market which passed a 1,000 mark six times
Greatest growth in federal revenues in history
Played Saxophone and Smoked Peace Pipe, instead of beating War Drums like____.
One of History's all time workers for Peace
President in a year when Fortune Magazine classified it as "Greatest Economy in the History of the world"
Popularity jump in the midst of a scandal.
President with highest peacetime popularity in Asia, Africa, Russia and Europe.
Highest popularity of any president at end of fifth year in office
One of the most highly regarded First Lady in History.
One of the most highly regarded Vice-President in History