My Folks: "We're Voting for Dean"

[tsipple]

First of all, I don't bother talking politics with my mother and her husband. They're retired -- mom teaches part time -- and have a "hobby farm" in poor rural Maine. (They live very modestly and wonder if they'll be able to afford a dishwasher.) Never voted for Bill Clinton. Voted for Perot in 1992, I believe. Registered independents.

"We're voting for Dean," Mom said during our Sunday "Hi, how are you doing?" phone call.

"Huh?" (I was a bit taken aback.)

"Did you hear about what the Democrats did with the confererate flag thing?"

"Yeah." (I guess she read the articles about Kerry-Gephardt-Edwards criticizing Dean this past Saturday -- and using an out-of-context quote to do it.)

"Well, unless somebody else comes along that really changes our mind, we're voting for Dean. That was so unfair."

True story, out of the blue. The backlash begins, I guess. :-)

[AWD]

1. Good for them!!!

They can see through the spin and crap!

Wai until they see the crybaby tactics of three other candidates banding together to halt an endorsement....hell, your mom might even DONATE after hearing that!

[tsipple]

3. There's More

She said they're definitely not voting for Bush because of Iraq. (They're very upset about that.) I also learned that they voted "third party" in 2000. (I'm not sure if that's Nader or the libertarian candidate, though. I didn't press her on that. I know they didn't like Gore, either.)

[tsipple]

6. Oh, One More Thing They Said

They said that they didn't like Bush for a very specific reason: lumber prices. Apparently they believe (correctly, I would assume) that the government has been buying up lots of building supplies, including lumber, to ship to Iraq. Well, they're trying to build a house, and they found the lumber prices were outrageously high.

They don't like the Iraq War generally speaking either, but they are particularly angry because they blame Bush for the high lumber prices.

Isn't that something?

[lancdem]

16. Lumber prices have really gone up

That's affecting our local home-building industry as well.

[tsipple]

21. Isn't that Something, lancdem?

I never would have thought of that connection, but they figured it out. If Bush didn't invade Iraq, there wouldn't be any rebuilding to do, and no rebuilding means more lumber means lower prices.

I remember my mom was even saying stuff like "Halliburton is buying up the lumber."

Kind of the icing on the cake for them, though. (They don't like the casualties.) I think they'd be fine if lumber prices went up with a necessary war, but they're not happy with Bush because of this.

[Some Moran]

27. That and...

The tarrif war with Canada...God forbid we let timber companies use crown land for cheap in exchange for strict environmental and replanting regulation.

[CMT]

2. my feeling is that most people will see what Dean's point

was and how what he says and his record is all about inclusiveness and that the attack that these other candidates decided to begin will backfire.

[Ripley]

4. You got that right.

This will backfire big time in their faces. Especially Edwards (whom I really like). I couldn't believe he said something like "it's insulting to say southerners drive pick-ups with confederate flags." He seriously needs to leave Washington and go back home to the tarheel state. Because I just visited my parents there recently and they got as many of those pick-ups with flags as Alabama does.

[KittyWampus]

13. To Bad They Won't See The Point That Dean's Mouth

Is a liability in the General Election.

[Hep]

14. How so?

What do you think will happen?

Bush's lack of intellect wasn't a bad thing. Why will Dean's "mouth" be?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. That's my concern too.

And yet we are brushed aside as impotent chicken littles.

[Hep]

25. Can we address this concern?

I'm concerned about this concern. I'm concerned about the nature of concern. What is your nightmare? Who specifically is Dean going to alienate?

Will you attempt to convince me that the american people are stupid? Will you try to convince me that Dean supporters are brainwashed?

Look, we're tired of these vague attacks. We're tired of hearing about mythological threads long gone in which your concerns are detailed. This is NOT concern. Not sincere concern. This is the attempt to use the most vague concepts in an attempt to SPREAD concern.

I'll stop dismissing you as a chicken little when your agument contains more than one sentence with an abstract outline of "his mouth getting him into trouble". He has 8 people right now, standing in front of everyone who cares, trying to convince everyone who cares that his mouth is an issue, and it's not working with them. What makes a person think that when the list of who cares expands to the general public, that they will be affected differently? People pay attention to both sides. It is no fun when you don't hear the comebacks.

If you can clear this up for me, I'll give you all the credit.

[AP]

22. My concern is that a lot of white voters who don't care about race

are going to say, hey, why are democrats attacking a guy looking after the interests of white people? Why are we telling white people how to feel about race?

Dean simply could have clarified his statement. Instead, he's saying that other are attacking him for being racist, which encourages white voters who don't care about race to go into bunker mentality.

Once you have voters thinking they're under attack from people too liberal on race, you've lost the high ground.

[Hep]

26. In what ways did Dean's clarification fail?

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR."

Why is this not good enough? Specificly.

[AP]

30. Here's what I think:

http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22668055.html

Several of Dean's rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination have accused him of embracing a racially divisive symbol.

"I was explaining to you what I meant. Do you think that the other guys in the race would give any slack on that? No, they're saying, "He's a racist." . . . Politics unfortunately is a lot about people saying stuff about you that is not true," he said.

I just think it's legitimate to criticize and demand a clarification from any candidate who says he wants to be the candidate "for" people waiving the confederate flag.

The right thing to say is that you want them to put the flags down and that you're not going to avoid the discussion of race in order to appeal to those people. The wrong thing to do is to say that the other candidates are calling you a racist for saying you want to be "for" those people. The statement demanded a clarification.

[DrFunkenstein]

5. Sistah Souljah Rides Again

Say, your enthusiasm for this guy didn't sway them in any direction, did it?

[tsipple]

8. Nope

They just hit me with this news unsolicited on Sunday.

I mentioned the Pilots for Dean web site and that they might want to take a look after they volunteered this information, though.

Besides, I must not be that persuasive, because they haven't voted with me for the Democratic candidate for at least the past three presidential elections (1992, 1996, 2000). I think any time the subject came up I was the one changing the subject so I wouldn't hear more about Monica Lewinsky. :-) (I think I remember them griping about Gore and the recount and them wanting Gore to just give it up.)

They're probably your classic independent/semi-disaffected swing voters. Not really Republican, certainly not Democratic, and fairly often third party. Doesn't mean they won't do that again, but, at this moment, they apparently like Dean a lot.

[AP]

17. What's their attitude on race?

I should note that, since they never voted Dem before, they're probably not a good indication of the way Democrats will respond to the race issue.

If they're conservatives who have funny ideas about race, they're probably exactly the kind of person to whom Dean's funny race talk is designed to appeal.

[tsipple]

24. Great Question

I was thinking that myself.

I think they're very tolerant, although I doubt that's ever been put to an "in your face" acid test. Upstate Maine just isn't the place where you confront race issues on a day-to-day basis.

I know they certainly don't have a confederate flag on their pick-up truck. :-) (They do have a pick-up truck. A Ford. So maybe that's what they heard, that Kerry-Edwards-Gephardt were dissing people with pick-up trucks as well as Republicans with confederate flags on them. :-))

My mom told me that she disobeyed her father when she went to "go march with Martin Luther King" as she grew up a semi-rebellious teenager in 1960s Boston. I wasn't born then. :-) (It'd be interesting to learn the dates of any King marches around Boston if anyone's got that. My mom would probably get a kick out of that stuff.) Don't know about her husband in that regard.

Don't know if that answers the question. Just again trying to think back to any occasions the subject might have come up.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. that's O.K.

there's still plenty of time for Dean to say something else stupid which will change their minds.

[RetroLounge]

10. You and your ilk just don't get it.

You bash, just like the Axis of Feeble, and the backlash begins.

Keep it up...

[tsipple]

11. In This Sample of Two...

...That seems to be the case, anyway. I guess they're among those people that react very badly to what you might call the "stupid politics." I think they liked Perot because they perceived him as a straight shooter and not someone who would try to talk to them in political-speak. (I do remember them saying that they thought Clinton wasn't honest, and I think they bought the whole Gore "doesn't know who he is/can't tell the truth" storyline.)

Or, put another way, their BS detectors are set to maximum. :-)

They're also really practical ("Bush raised my lumber prices") and apparently able to connect some dots ("because he's buying up all the building supplies to send to Iraq"). That was really interesting to me. The whole Iraq thing also gets wrapped up in the "where are the weapons?" stuff -- there go those BS detectors again.

I think they'd make a fascinating study in a focus group. And of course I love them. :-)

On edit: I also remember them saying that they like their two senators, Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins, if that matters. (Trying to remember every little political thing they've ever said over several years is difficult.)

[DrFunkenstein]

18. Axis of Feeble

How quickly we become the things we hate. Does it not occur to you that you are no better than the "clever" Republicans that thought up the original?

[KittyWampus]

20. You Know, My Comments About Dean Were Objective

I simply observed the FACTS-

About the comment Dean made about Confed Flag Wavers (he wants to reach out to them)
About who he said it to (his rank and file)
About who he DIDN'T say his comments to (the actual Southern Rebels)

That is NOT bashing... and yet it seems that Dean supporters cannot hear it... they JUST WON'T.

[JNelson6563]

23. you call this facts?

To Bad They Won't See The Point That Dean's Mouth


Is a liability in the General Election.


Looks like opinion to me. Hateful opinion at that.

Julie

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

9. Quote from Dean.

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR."

The Basher Bash, and Dean gets stronger...

[Code_Name_D]

19. You have heard of Regan Democract?

Get ready for Dean Republicans. :)

[SahaleArm]

28. I have yet to meet a moderate Democrat...

who supports Dean. Of course I live in Seattle so I have yet to meet anothor moderate Democrat:).

[tsipple]

29. Here's How I *Think* They Voted

1992: Perot (both)
1996: Dole (both)
2000: Nader (one) and the libertarian (the other)

That's just a hunch. So in 1996, anyway, they were Republican voters. They do like their two moderate Republican senators: Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins. (I think one of them is from their county, and they like that.)

Let's see... Other demographic information... Well, they own a solar panel. It's to power her husband's ham radio set. (That's a hobby of his.) They've said for years they'd like to buy a small windmill but they haven't yet. They owned about 20 acres (leased out for oats last season), sold that to a family working for the Border Patrol, and are now building an octagonal log house on another 20 acres. (They made enough profit to buy a two year old Toyota Matrix as their second car so my mom can get to her part time teaching job in town without taking the pick-up. The "War on Terror" boosted housing prices a bit in the area.) They're concerned about building supply prices, and they're concerned about interest rates (because they are still on their construction loan). They won't be able to lock in their rate until May.

What else? Mom teaches the town's first ever gifted and talented class. (It's a state mandate to have one.) It's her first year. She's a little frustrated with the parents who object if Johnny/Jane is challenged by their teacher. Mom is a former bank attorney. She also is into fiber art. She makes incredible framed abstract art using very precise selections of fabrics and exacting needlework. Takes her months to create one piece. She also does some croche. (She made my favorite sweater.)

Her husband is ex-something to do with intelligence gathering satellites. (I think.) That's all I know, and it's not something discussed. (We get the hint to change the subject. Evidently he can't talk about it.) He speaks fluent German, though, and he spent some time working in Austria. (Does that make sense to anybody? OK, maybe I don't want to know. :-)) He gets a modest government pension which they live on and supplement a bit with her teaching salary. Not dirt poor, but pretty much paycheck-to-paycheck.

They access the Internet. Dial-up. No cell phone. They've been to Free Republic but I assume they're bored. I think they used to read Drudge. Don't know what their surfing habits are now, really.

Mom is divorced (from my Dad), but it was rather cordial as those things go. Now remarried.