Is the Democratic Party too far left? Even now?

[ulysses]

That's certainly Zell's take.

I guess it's a question for DU's Dem centrists. I know many (most?) of you don't exactly consider the guy your spokesman, but the fact is that he's coming out of your camp, under your flag. So...after NAFTA, after welfare reform, after Sister Souljah, after the health care debacle, after all the war support and the giving of ground on gays in the military, etc...is the party *still* too far left?

If so, how far does it have to go?

[On the Road]

The Only Two Issues Are

Universal health care and gay marriage. Those two can stir up some powerful opposition. Other than that, the Democratic party isn't populist enough.

[metisnation]

87. how about anti-WTO

without the rioting

[On the Road]

1. The Only Two Issues Are

Universal health care and gay marriage. Those two can stir up some powerful opposition. Other than that, the Democratic party isn't populist enough.

[tom_paine]

2. LOL -- this must be a joke, right?

I am a moderate and the Democratic Party is to the right of me on many things now, much to my amazement.

Does that make me a pinko Commie? Funny, I don't feel any different.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

3. Is the Democratic party left wing in any way?

Really? I don't know what Zell's problem is, and I don't care. Good Riddance.

[zanana]

4. This questions always pisses me off.

I hear this question mostly from Republicans, who've been using it to try to win elections for about 20 years. Instead of asking if Dems are too far to the left, I think it should be pointed out that Republicans are WAY too far to the right. I wish our presidential candidates would point this out, and often. How close to fanaticism do they have to get before somebody calls them on it?

[LastKnight]

5. Zell miller...

nothing but a traitor... and i treat him like i treat all republikkkans... i respect their opnions no matter how wrong they are

-LK

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. The Dem is more liberal SOCIALLY than your average American

and FAR to the right of your average American on economic policies.

[Nederland]

51. I doubt that

The majority of our candidates right now are talking about repealing the entire Bush tax cut. I consider tax cuts a right wing issue, and polls say that repealing the entire tax cut doesn't sit well with a majority of Americans.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. of course tax cuts aren't "right wing"

Income tax cuts for rich people and estate tax cuts and the like can be called right wing, but of course your average American is not going to support a tax increase on the middle class, which is what repealing the "entire tax cut" would be.

Poll after poll for years and years have shown that Americans are likely to support progressive "left wing" economic policies. The Democrats strong support of gay rights, abortion, and social liberalism is to the left of most Americans (but not by too much).

[Cascadian]

7. Not from where I am standing.

They need to stop copying the Republicans and move from the center to left of center and show some brass ones! Before it's too late!


John

[AP]

8. Look at the election map...

...there are two Americas -- the coast and the center. The Democrats are too conservative for the coasts, and too liberal for the middle of America.

Whereas, the Republican party can have people like Olympia Snowe, Jeffords (of old), Peter King, Amo Houghton, etc., in the liberal parts of America without anyone but Freepers flipping out, some Democrats flip out over people like Zell Miller. If we didn't have a Senate, and the legislature only reflected the population, this wouldn't matter, since there are more people on the coasts than in the middle.

However, we do have an extremely undemocratic senate, and we're all gonna have to learn to figure out a way to live with people like Zell Miller until we figure out a way to reduce the undemocratic tendencies of the Senate (one good way would be to encourage the economy to grow, and cities to grow in middle America).

[dolstein]

16. The Democrats are too conservative for the coasts?

Sorry, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. Perhaps you think Nader's "strength" in the pacific Northwest is evidence that the Democratic Party has moved to far to the right (pardon my while I stifle my laughter), need I point out that for every Nader voter there were nine or ten Republican voters? Clearly far more voters thought Gore was too liberal than thought he wasn't liberal enough.

[AP]

20. 27% of voters nationwide preferred Nader over all other candidates.

I bet you most of them were on the coasts.

What I don't know is whether they preferred him becasue they perceived him as being farther left than Gore.

[SahaleArm]

36. You mean 2.7%?

http://www.presidentelect.org/e2000.html:).

[Ardee]

83. Perhaps, perhaps not....

You assume that those dems who voted for Bush, or those moderate republicans who failed to vote for Gore did so because they thought him too liberal.I choose to believe that they failed to vote for Albert because he failed to get through to them.

Time and again we see assumptions for those who cast ballots for other than our own chosen candidates as proof of some swing to the right. I choose to see each ballot for the other guy as a failure to clearly get ones message across. I guess I just have a better opinion of my fellow americans than do those to the right of me politically.

I choose to believe that, given the facts, my fellow americans would choose peace over war, health care and education over tax cuts for the wealthiest americans and a bloated military budget. All those issues that centrist dems avoid like the plague in fear of alientating the electorate.Do not most americans have children that need educating? Do not most americans have elderly family members needing less expensive health care and arent they going to be old one day themselves? I cannot believe that these issues would not resonate with most americans if presented to them.

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. Left of Rutherford B. Hayes, maybe

If the Democratic party were "too left," then there would be a lot fewer Democrats falling all over themselves trying to convince people that there IS TOO a difference between them and the Republicans.

[Bandit]

14. IS TOO a difference between them and the Republicans.

:shrug: IS TOO So stop saying that.

[dolstein]

10. Newsflash: The Democratic Party is as far to the left as it has ever been

Even at the peak of Johnson's Great Society and Roosevelt's New Deal, the Democratic Party had a large Southern conservative wing. And even outside the South, there were large numbers of Democrats who held more conservative positions on social issues or were hawks on foreign policy. Even Hubert Humphrey, the party's leading liberal voice for many years, would be considered unacceptably hawkish by the DU crowd.

But where are the Southern conservatives? They're nearly all gone. Sure, some have been replaced by moderates Dems, but nobody with any understanding of 20th century political history would ever mistake someone like John Breaux or Fritz Hollings for a Boll Weevil or a Dixiecrat.

Where are all the foreign policy hawks? There are a few hawks left, like Joe Lieberman, but the Democratic leadership is dominated by doves. Scoop Jackson would be pretty disappointed.

The Democratic Party is much as liberal on social policy and as dovish on foreign policy than it has ever been.

As for economic policy, must DU'ers seem to be completely unaware of the fact that the Democratic Party used to be the party of free trade, while the Republican Party favored protectionism. And while the Democratic Party may not be as free spending as it used to be, that's what happens when the government is saddled with a multitrillion dollar deficit.

[ulysses]

18. ?

The Democratic Party is much as liberal on social policy and as dovish on foreign policy than it has ever been.

Kindly provide proof of this more convincing than the defection of southern conservatives.

[dolstein]

22. Excuse me, but the departure of social conservatives from the party

is ample proof. And nice try, but the defections haven't only come in the South, They've come from Catholics nationwide, who used to support the Democratic Party by overwhelming margins but now split their vote almost evenly between the two parties. They've come in rural states too. Just look at all the Western states Truman carried in 1948 -- states like Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah and Montana. You think Democrats are getting clobbered in those states because they aren't liberal enough on social issues?

[ulysses]

38. is it, now?

Then what about the second question? How far does it have to go? What do we have to do to regain the Catholic vote - would a strong stand against capital punishment do the trick, or do we have to roll back Roe v. Wade? Would condemning, say, homosexuality bring back the western states, or are they all about environmental issues?

How far is far enough?

[ulysses]

69. Hello? Earth to dolstein...

You out there, old buddy?

[burr]

27. Does this make our party tuned in with 64% of Americans who are dovish?

Or does this make these non-partisan American voters just plain ignorant on foreign policy and government spending?

[dolstein]

29. You really think those 64% are going to vote for Dean?

Wanna buy a bridge?

[burr]

35. nope...

but I would love to help build one!

It beats burning all of our bridges, especially those which win votes.

[charlie]

33. I dunno about more dovish nowadays

The Democrats mustered a hell of a lot more votes against Poppy's gulf war than Junior's.

[jiacinto]

11. He's not coming out my camp

But I think the problem is more with perception than actual policy.

[ulysses]

19. he certainly claims to

and you certainly defended him until he endorsed Bush.

[Flying_Pig]

12. No. Zell Miller's opinion, is that the entire U.S. should behave and

vote just like the Southern redneck he is. Screw him. If my choice is to live in a nation ruled by Southern rednecks (which is pretty much where we are now), and another Civl War, then let the war begin.

The only other choice would be to move out of the country. And if being a Dem "centrist" means embracing people like Zell Miller, then it is no longer the party which I have belonged to for over 35 years. And if these "Zell Miller" type creatures take over my party, then I'll find another party that will appreciate my vote, and my support, because the Dems won't have it anymore.

[Scott Lee]

41. Well Said

And if being a Dem "centrist" means embracing people like Zell Miller, then it is no longer the party which I have belonged to for over 35 years. And if these "Zell Miller" type creatures take over my party, then I'll find another party that will appreciate my vote, and my support, because the Dems won't have it anymore.

You have masterfully elucidated exactly why there is a growing Green Party. Many Democrats get irate when you bring up the Greens - what "spoilers" they are and what not. Those Democrats seem to be missing the main point - that by becoming statists and more like republicans than democrats, they are swelling the Green ranks.

[grannylib]

13. Not far enough left for me...

IMHO that is one of the main problems - we have not distingushed ourselves sufficiently from the Repungnicans.
We need Paul Wellstone back!!!

[Kamika]

15. Zell was a dinosaur

dating back to when the southern democratic party had 50% of their members in the kkk

[dolstein]

17. Zell Miller may be many things -- but he's not a bigot

He's not even a Dixiecrat.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snippy]

61. One of the very few Dixiecrats who did not cross the aisle.

The hard core bigots and racists and those who are tolerant of bigotry and racism all became republicans.

[spindoctor]

21. YES!

As a matter of fact, we need to position the Democratic Party more to the right of the political spectrum if we ever want to win states like Utah, Texas or Florida.
After all, what good is being a political party if you don't get to govern?

As off tonight's debate, I expect to see:

A. More and bigger flags.
B. A clear "support the troops" stance with at least 7 candidates.
C. Commitments to $500/plate fundraising diners.
D. A Democratic candidate who wants to cut taxes all together.
E. At least one candidate stupid enough so voters can identify themselves with him.
F. I want to hear Carol Mosely Brown say: "George Bush is clearly not tough enough to find Osama Bin Laden. When I am elected President, I will go down to Afghanistan and drag that SOB to Guantanamo by his beard my SELF". (followed by that charming smile of hers)
G. The Democratic Party needs to make commitments to the Military Industrial Complex to donate half of the tax revenue for them to divide amongst each other. If so desired they can build billion dollar jetfighters in return but this is no requirement.
H. I want all candidates to be "tougher on crime". All people suspected of ever committing a crime should also be unfit to vote in any election.
I. Speaking of elections, our candidates should position themselves to withhold voting rights from people making less than $35K/year. There is nothing wrong with earning your right to vote.
J. Finally, I propose to draft the CEO of Diebold as a Democratic candidate for 2004 and future elections.

The Democratid Party is DEFINITELY too far left. What are we? A bunch of yellow livered pinkos?

Good question.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

23. LOL! If Carol Moseley-Braun said that I'd vote for her in a heartbeat!

I want to hear Carol Mosely Brown say: "George Bush is clearly not tough enough to find Osama Bin Laden. When I am elected President, I will go down to Afghanistan and drag that SOB to Guantanamo by his beard my SELF". (followed by that charming smile of hers)

And with that smile of hers should could get away with it too!

[Q]

24. The Democratic party lost the last of its liberals in the 80s...

...and 90s. Yeah...there a few left stranded in the party...but they've been stripped of their voice and power by the NeoDems.

- Kennedy is a good example: he gave a speech on Iraq a couple weeks ago that in the past would have stirred the party to action. He was flat out ignored by the party and shoved back on the shelf.

- And then the NeoDems have the gall to wonder why the party won't follow them like lemmings and vote ABB.

[info being]

25. What do you guys even mean by Left?

I'm more interested in common sense than left or right.

[rbnyc]

26. Ahh Ahhh Ahhhhhh!

Ahhhhhhhh! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

Ahh! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[realFedUp]

28. Considering the "center" has moved far right lately...

moving it further left takes it back to the center.

[spindoctor]

40. The center moves?

Then the sun does revolve around the earth, I guess.

[ulysses]

46. politics is not cosmology. n/t

[zanana]

49. realFedUp--Wish I'd said that.

I was trying to say something like that in my earlier post; glad you phrased it correctly. The Center CAN be moved. The word "center" really just defines the word "moderate". If "right-wing" is Attila the Hun, then "moderate" is Rush Limbaugh. That would make Bill Clinton a socialist. (Did I explain this correctly)?

[zanana]

50. realFedUp--Wish I'd said that.

I was trying to say something like that in my earlier post; glad you phrased it correctly. The Center CAN be moved. The word "center" really just defines the word "moderate". If "right-wing" is Attila the Hun, then "moderate" is Rush Limbaugh. That would make Bill Clinton a socialist. (Did I explain this correctly)?

[mike_c]

30. good gawd, the words "left" and "democratic party" don't belong...

...in the same sentence anymore.

[Scott Lee]

31. You gotta be shitting me

Zell is off the lunatic scale. I've NEVER seen the Dem Party so right wing as it stands today.

Howard Dean - where the HELL were you a decade ago???

[damnraddem]

32. Thank God, it's still too far left to be ...

the GOP. But that's no thanks to the DLC.

[zonmoy]

34. NO

Mr zell is a rethug in disguise. He obviously is part of the cabal that is trying to make the democrats indestinquisable from the neocon fascists.

[stevebreeze]

37. Lets see.....

1 Universal health care
2 minimum income
3 clean air act
4 clean water act
5 OSHA

This is not the far left's wish list, these are policys pushed or enacted and signed into law by the man who put Renquest on the USSC, RM Nixon. Who has moved to extreams? it aint the Dems!

:kick:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Zell Miller Is Not A Moderate Dem....

If you wanted to single out moderate Dems you would have been on safer ground singling out folks like Joe Biden, Bob Graham, and Dianne Feinstein....

[ulysses]

45. I said centrists, not moderates.

Different beasts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Even With That Caveat

Feinstein, Biden, Graham, Landrieu, Murray, even HRC could be called centrist Dems....

Zell Miller defies description...

[ulysses]

55. then let's define a common language.

Use my post to pmbryant below as a starting point. What is centrist these days? What is moderate? What is leftist?

[pmbryant]

48. Please provide a definition

What do you mean by 'centrist Democrats' then?

--Peter

[ulysses]

53. as I said the other day

I don't have any kind of definitive definition. In terms of DU, I go largely (although not entirely by any means) by the way in which folks self-describe.

That said, try this for a totally subjective view - imagine a number line (ok, I teach math) with the political center at zero. No importance should be attached to the numbers, btw. If we posit, for sitting politicians, Bernie Sanders at -10 and Trent Lott at +10, I would put centrists of all stripes between -3 and +3 and include Joe Lieberman, Zell Miller, Olympia Snowe, Jim Jeffords and others at various points in that range.

[pmbryant]

57. If you go by voting scores...

I don't think any of those people would count as centrists.

Ok, maybe Miller and Snowe, though they would probably be at more than +3 (+4 or +5 I would suspect). But Lieberman and Jeffords come down solidly on the progressive side.

There are extremely few true 'centrists' these days by your definition, at least among elected officials.

I still don't understand what the difference is between 'moderates' and 'centrists'.

--Peter

[ulysses]

64. I don't go by voting scores alone.

That'll tell you part of the story, but not the whole thing. A politician doesn't suddenly appear out of thin air at voting time then just as suddenly vanish again.

But Lieberman and Jeffords come down solidly on the progressive side.

Based on what? I think Jeffords is an honorable man (I'm not even going to talk to Lieberman here), but he went from Republican to Independent, not Repug to Leftist or even to Democrat. How does he suddenly rate as a progressive?

[pmbryant]

66. Jeffords and Miller

Before he left the GOP, he was under pressure to 'toe the party line' and that made his record more conservative. Back then, I think he would have qualified as a true 'centrist' by your definition.

He no longer has those pressures, and it is my understanding that his record now is decidedly more progressive than it used to be. I haven't followed him terribly closely, however, so I could be wrong.

But even if he still qualifies as a 'centrist', there are still very very few of these. Zell Miller is certainly not one of them. Perhaps he could have pretended that he was one before, with some success, but now that he has vociferously endorsed Bush, that act is over.

--Peter

[lastliberalintexas]

42. If it is,

we are in far more trouble than I realized.

I don't think so, at least not in actualy policy. The problem is that the repubs have been absolutely *masterful* at turning liberal, progressive, and even Democrat into dirty words in certain areas of the country. The repubs have succeeded in painting Dems as (racial epithet)- lovers and welfare queen supporters, "baby" killers, the dreaded socialists/communists, gun confiscators and/or all of the above. Thus, Dems are *perceived* as the long-haired, hippie type, pinko (sexual orientation slur)- to quote a well known (now) repub country singer.

That's fine- they are a political party entitled to try to smear their rivals. But the perception problems have become reality for so many because Dems, by and large, have refused to fight back. We've allowed the repubs to dictate political debate and discourse in this country for far too long.

We've been a spineless party pretty much my entire life (32 years), and are confronted with an entire generation of people who know nothing but that Reagan was God Almighty himself and Carter was Satan incarnate. If my generation has paid any attention at all, they only know that Clinton had a sexual liasion with an intern and was impeached for it, and that by implication, the Dems are the party of the morally corrupt.

Until we start fighting back and taking control of the debate- or at least becoming equal participants in it- we will continue to be perceived as pinko commies by certain people. And we will deserve it.

[Deja Q]

43. Zell is a DINO and a reich-wing sympathizer

We're not too far left or even very left at all. He's too far reich. By far.

[pmbryant]

44. Please please please do not associate Zell Miller with the word 'Democrat'

I think you know quite well that he does not represent 'centrist' Dems, or any other group of legitimate Dems for that matter.

The only people he represents are Bush voters.

:puke:

--Peter


(Edit: slight wording change)

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

54. do tell.

In what way are the "socialists" not controlled within the party at this date?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[DoubleYellowDog]

65. My wife and I make 95k

We also are putting 3 kids through university and nursing three unhealthy parents. We barely make it with the expenses we have.

Maybe you don't have the responsibility and costs we have and have no clue as to what we need to "cover" thye costs. What, are you single and have no idea what it's like to support loved ones?

[pmbryant]

67. Single people can have unhealthy parents too

:eyes:

[ulysses]

68. save me the sob story.

You're supporting a half-dozen welfare queens too, right?

Right.

You're not taxed at 42%. Give it up.

[DoubleYellowDog]

75. Give it up?

My property tax is >8k a year and I live in a 100+ year old farmhouse.

Socialism if fine as long as it does not make those that work harder pay more.

[snippy]

78. Why have you chosen to pay so much in property tax?

[snippy]

70. You need a lawyer to sue your accountant.

If you do your own taxes you need to STOP immediately and either hire someone or have one of your kids do them.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snippy]

82. "Too many non-working lazy people" Like unhealthy parents I suppose.

[Forkboy]

86. Hmmmm

Now where have I heard this kind of argument before?

[Selwynn]

58. How exactly is it "left" in any meaningful way?

This question infuriates me to no end. Too left? It's not even left at all in any real sense of the word. Politics today is the Right (Democrats) vs. the far-Right(Republicans). True progressive (i.e. Left) Politics are all but dead.... :(

[duvinnie]

72. not dead

I wouldnt go so far. I think the progressives just haven't been able to
engage the "public" out there very effectively - of course that opens up
a can of worms on the media and its role in the current mess. We may just
have to wait for the day when new ways of communicating and interacting
(ie ways not yet dominated by GE) are able to come of age and let popular
sentiment loose again. Oh yes, that and a few years of * will definitely
get the pendulum swinging the other way.

[The Commie]

73. Sad, but true.

It all started when the reactionary think-tanks became powerful. People are filled with so much pro-capitalist propaganda (mostly in civics and economic classes as teens) that people believe the morons.

[Laszlo_Hollyfeld]

60. For my tastes, its too far right

and I really don't know what to believe about polls and Mr. & Mrs. America and all the ships at sea.

[bleedingheart]

71. We aren't left enough for me

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

81. that sort of rhetoric should make you a real hit here

[Forkboy]

88. so much anger must be a tough burden to carry

[dolstein]

74. Well, 40 years ago, Lieberman would be considered a liberal Democrat

Now he's considered a moderate or a centrist by his friends within the party and a closet Republican by his enemies. Clearly the center of gravity within the party has shifted to the left.

[DealsGapRider]

77. I could use a little more liberalism from the Democratic Party...

...on certain issues. Where is the Dem candidate who is willing to finally stand up and say what I think the majority of people believe: that there's no reason why booze should be legal while marijuana is illegal?

[DoubleYellowDog]

80. That's fair enough

As long as they don't say there's no reason we that are willing to work our ass of should support those that are able but not willing.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

84. Huh?

"Cuba and Chavez are looking for hard workers to support their slackers"

"Too many non-working lazy people are affecting us more now than ever."

"As long as they don't say there's no reason we that are willing to work our ass of should support those that are able but not willing."

Wait-a-second, did they give Rush computer priviledges at rehab?????

[ulysses]

85. I'd really like a straight answer to #2.

If the Democratic Party of 2003 is still to be understood as "too far left" or "too liberal", then what, exactly, needs to be done in order to bring that scale into balance?

What will it take? Welfare is already half gone - should we give the rest? Maybe the rest of the social safety net - should we privatize social security? What about abortion rights? All semblance of opposition to illegal and stupid wars? I still haven't really heard from the centrists what it is that they want.

edit: the lost noun is found.