Vengence is mine, Shadenfreud gone wild. It's time for some to rethink

[ShaneGR]

The vast majority of us disagreed with invading Iraq. We agree that Bush lied to the American people, and the current occupation is indeed a horrible nightmare. We know that we were ignored, and it is very frustrating to see what has happened. We warned them. It's certainly easy to get into I told you so mode, it's natural.

But some people, maybe just a few, are directing their anger towards American troops in Iraq. They have misplaced their anger towards those men and women. While it is certainly true that this occupation is illegal, these men and women Bush sent over there are simply an extension of a civilian policy. They are recruited and trained to do one thing, follow orders. Most of them come from middle-class and poor neighborhoods. They are simply looking for a way to get ahead in the world.

I think the main point that people are overlooking, is that these soldiers do not have much choice in the matter. In reality, they are no different than an Iraqi soldier who was ordered to sit in some bunker, hoping not to die. Both sides are simply pawns in a bigger game, decided on by old greedy men in nice houses. And what exactly is a US soldier going to do in Iraq? Is he going to refuse to stand and fight with his fellow soldiers? Abandon them? I think not. Certainly these men make mistakes sometimes, but this is a war that has been thrust upon them, not the other way around. It is important to make this distinction in your own mind.

Make an effort, if you have mixed feeling about the troops, to think about what they are going through right now. Stars and Stripes Magazine, a military newspaper, recently polled the troops in Iraq. A majority of them declared they would not re-enlist. Overall, their opinions showed one thing: Confusion. Had they been lied to? Why are they there? How come they were told the war would be one thing, and it became something entirely different. Keep in mind a majority of them were told they would already be home. They were told the Iraqis would throw flowers. Imagine, after seeing all of the carnage, what many of them are experiencing right now. Think about their suffering, just as you think of the Iraqis. There is no difference.

Trauma.

So tomorrow, when the news comes about the latest death, curse Bush for causing all of this. Hate the ground that he walks on. Curse his very existence. Make sure he goes back to Crawford. Work to find Dick Cheney's secret location, and put a lock on the door so he never comes back.

But make sure you add one reason to the list:

George W Bush sold out the American military. He lied to those soldiers about this war. He considers their deaths to be progress. He baits their enemies with bring em on. Quite simply, he has lost control. He does not care for them. Just the other day, he ignored 16 of their deaths so he could brag about economic date. He forgot about the tens of thousands who lost their jobs in October.

Bush is completely out of touch. Focus your energy towards him. Work to remove him from office. If you do, you will be saving American and Iraqi lives. I think this is a better way to look at the situation. I hope you examine it, and work to understand a soldiers plight.

[DinahMoeHum]

1. The military vote may be up for grabs next year. . .not a GOP lock at all,

according to the latest Washington Monthly...
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0311.wallace-wells.html

:nuke:

[ShaneGR]

8. A very small percentage, BUT....

If the election is close, their vote will shock a LOT of people. Think Florida.

[wuushew]

2. Can you explain to me how far up the chain of command blame goes?

Since there is no draft everyone in the military services is free to evalute the effects of their actions. Everytime a bomb is dropped or a shell fired the person most directly tied to that event should be aware of its consequences. In the past such as world war 2 the complexities of fighting a global war against fascism meant that individual questions of morality had to be deferred to higher up levels of command because in such cases the overall war effort was directed to ending conflict and overall bloodshed in the most effective way. But is this true in Iraq? What is so complex about burning orchards or running over a man's taxi? These individual actions have immediate local results and benefit in no way by being sanctioned by George W. Bush.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. Think more along the lines of a candle burning at both ends....

Somewhere in the middle (generals, ship captains, etc, are safe)....Commander in Chief and congress are at one end of the candle and a lot of troops know where the blame lies for where they are right now, it's not their sargent or company commander, it's the people who made the policy.

There is blame in a microcosm for specific bad instructions which led to things like fragging (offing your superiors) but that's not likely here.

On the other end of that is the policy makers.

[ShaneGR]

6. So, you're going to tell me that John, a reservist from Ohio....

is supposed to question his orders to put a shell in some gun? He's supposed to just walk away from the other men and women in his unit? He's supposed to disgrace himself, ruin his whole life? Do you know what it means to refuse to serve? To go AWOL (Unless you're rich like George W)? What about the soldiers who have family back home, living in military housing? Are they supposed to send their family into economic misery, when they are already disadvantaged?


THINK

[Maple]

3. Didn't work at

Nuremberg, won't work now.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

5. Not to mention

That they have families back home who love them.

[ShaneGR]

7. Exactly

There is nothing worse than a wife, mother, or child who finds out they've lost a husband, son, or father.

[WilliamPitt]

9. Bravo

Well said.

[ShaneGR]

21. Thanks

[roughsatori]

10. Murdering another human because my Commanding Officer told me to

does not relieve me of being held accountable by a Higher Power or ethical humans. I know that some do not believe as I do. But the idea that one is relieved of moral responsibility when one is "following orders" is something that I find as repugnant as hoping that people will die to help oust a monstrous, wicked
(P)resident out of his stolen office.

[Eloriel]

11. Yeah, but you don't get to make those choices and decisions

You don't know what's going on there and who's doing what, under what circumstances. All you know is that you imagine that there are war crimes being committed. I'm sure you're right. But beyond that, you simply don't have any real information.

You are therefore relieved of the responsibility of judging.

Which, I imagine you realize, was never yours to begin with.

There are many people being used and abused in this farcical tragedy of unimaginable proportions. Please relieve yourself also of the burden of adding to that.

Eloriel

[WilliamPitt]

12. Extraordinarily well said, Eloriel

[Cleita]

13. Fabulous essay.

I hope everyone reads it. It is wrong to wish for anyone's death for the greater good, even if it's Bush's death you are wishing for. I am not coming from a religious place with this but a human place.

[bpilgrim]

14. Bring'em Home!

http://news.GlobalFreePress.com/flash

very good point :toast:

it is in this very same spirit that i look upon the warriors of even our enemies of past and present.

war is hell for all

peace

[karlschneider]

15. I would give big odds that most of us know that. Whatever criticism is

directed toward the troops (in some few cases justified) is a scream of rage against what has happened to them. I know I feel it for my neighbor kid, 18, in Iraq and already did a stint in Afghanistan.
This kid has no clue about politics. I doubt he could name a single cabinet officer, or find more then 1 or 2 countries on a map, but he's stuck in this shithole with no clue.

I hope to hell he doesn't come home mentally fucked up. knowwhatimean?

[ShaneGR]

17. I know what you mean

Seriously, I really do.

[ronzo]

16. Good Rant!

Hear, hear!

[mike_c]

18. exactly which part of this is supposed to mean anything to...

...the Iraqi's being ground under our bootheels. I ask again, would you use ANY of these arguments to justify the actions (or the safety) of foreign troops invading and occupying America? What if they had no choice but to obey orders? What if they enlisted, not because they're serial killers, but in order to improve their lot at home? I'm sorry, all these argument ultimately boil down to imperialist arrogance. We're better than they are. The wogs begin at Calais.

[ShaneGR]

28. I take you don't know anyone in the military

It shows

[nomaco-10]

19. I wasn't going to post tonight....

I'm tired, I worked two jobs today and I merely planned to slip into see what the chatter was on the debate and check up on what's being posted in the late breaking news forum.
My curiosity was piqued when I noticed there were two different threads in response to an earlier thread, so I decided to track it down. When I found the original thread written by StarrPass, I was both shocked and appalled at what I read, that it would spawn two seperate threads in response comes as no surprize. The level of torment this poor woman must be experiencing to write such a post must be horrible, but I am not moved towards sympathy. It far surpassed anything controversial I've ever read on DU, I was heartsick with disgust and disdain at the very suggestion of her remarks.
Thank you sgr2 for posting, you express my thoughts so much more eloquently than I could ever hope to do.

[ShaneGR]

20. Wow, thank you.... I really appreciate your comment

It means a lot.

[ShaneGR]

22. Kick

[Vogon_Glory]

23. Not Yet Time for Schadenfreude

I have no intention of going on a good schadenfreud binge until a Democratic preisential nominee sweeps into office and we get to watch Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, et all weep, wail, and gnash their teeth and rend their Armani garments.

I would hope to continue such a Schadenfreude binge when the Democratic administration starts declassifying Dubya Bush documents showing the crooked motives and methodology of the incumbent administration, connected corporations, and its sleazy operatives. I hope to float further on my Schadenfreud binge when prosecutors for a Democratic-controlled Justice Department start to investigate and bring criminal and civil charges in a target-rich enviornment of crooked PACs and their Republican beneficiaries and make the GOP howl as Tammany Hall wailed long ago when justice started being done.

[Brewman_Jax]

24. Thinking about the pain factor

The pain caused by one too many funerals, or one too many tour extensions, or one too many service members returning traumatized and/or disabled, or one too many people beginning to wake up and think "Why's my tax money going to Iraq and I can't get a decent job here?" Once that pain kicks in, the flag-waving zombies will be roused out of their stupor and turn on Bush*.

P.S. I had the duty of talking a friend out of joining the Reserves. I was in the U.S. Navy (6 years active duty) during Gulf War I. Even tho' he is very technical (computer networking) and would probably not be on the front lines, I reminded that if he is deployed, he may not be home for a long time. He thought about it for a while and changed his mind. He thanked me for giving him the facts to think about.

[MadHound]

25. I feel for the troops, I take no joy in their plight.

I will not spit on them, nor curse their name. I do not wish them death nor injury, and experience only sorrow and anger when that occurs. They provide a noble service in defense of this nation.

However I cannot absolve them of their responsibility in this matter.

I think that any prospective member of our armed services, from the end of the Vietnam draft era onwards should realize going in that there was the distinct possibility that they would be deployed in a political, imperialistic and immoral war. To pretend that the children of the seventies, eighties and ninties didn't know the ethics involved in the Vietnam war is being disingenous, as the very ethics of Vietnam were discussed openly and taught freely as a US object lesson in the dangers of overreaching, hubris and the true meaning of quagmire. With additional lessons added over the years, named Grenada, Panama, and the Gulf War

And yet knowing and cognizant of these facts, they went ahead and enlisted anyway, voluntarily, of their own free will.

Ah, but I can hear the arguement now; "Hound, these people were poor, desperate, and wanting to get ahead with a free college education." And that is all true. But millions of others(myself included) who were equally poor and desperate got ahead, and a college education without sacrificing their free will and morality on the altar of war. I was 19, and a homeless youth, and while foolish and stupid in many, many ways, I was smart enough to realize that the military had been corrupted for the use of imperialist, amoral politicians. And like millions of others who knew the same, I declined the enlistment option.

Thus I think and feel that those who did enlist bear responsibility for their actions. Some, not many but some, were truly incapable of being cognizant of what their decision entailed. Another minority, acting out of true patriotism, were simply blinded by the noble call to serve in the defense of their country. But the far and away majority of enlistees played a cynical game, gambling their morals against the house that in their two-four hitch, no major soul searching, gut wrenching, action would occur. I have heard the sentiment expressed time and again no war would occur, we won't get into another Vietnam. Yet here we are, and all bets have been called. Once again, the house won.

So the soldiers gnash and wail, rueing their dicing with the Devil. But since they were the ones to initiate this game, they have to bear responsibility for the outcome. "Hound, what would you have them do?" I can hear you cry. My answer is that they should put down their weapons, and walk, ride, sail or fly out of that country, stopping for every Iraqi citizen they meet and apologizing for their actions. Perhaps such a mass act of repentance would finally wake up the sleeping sheeple at home, make them realize just what path our country is on. Perhaps not, perhaps it wouldn't be reported. But it begs the old question "What WOULD they do if they gave a war, and nobody came?"
Perhaps it would restore peace and sanity in this time of madness. Perhaps it would shake the foundation of this imperialistic power structure of our government until it fell, and we could rebuild a better one. Perhaps.

But do I truly expect this to happen, this mass exodus of soldiers. No, of course not. But I do think that each and evey one of them needs to make amends when this madness is over, if they make it back alive. For each and every one owes a debt, both physically and spiritually. For enabling a killing machine controlled by imperialist madmen to run amok, doing untold damage that perhaps only history will truly be able to judge. And perhaps moreso for the debt that they will owe to their own soul, for cynicly allowing it to be drenched in innocent blood.

[Brewman_Jax]

26. kick

:kick:

[ShaneGR]

27. bumpo