Dems wrap Dean In Confederate flag

[squanto]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/11/04/national2111EST0805.DTL

snip

Howard Dean's presidential rivals finally found a flag to rally around Tuesday night.

The Confederate flag.

A heated exchange over the former Vermont governor's rhetorical courtship of Southern voters gave hope to his fellow Democratic candidates as they seek to drive a wedge between Dean and key party constituencies such as blacks, elderly voters and gun control advocates.

[Closer]

1. Please no more of this tripe

We're all getting gagged by the flag.

[Clark Can WIN]

2. Dems didn't put

the words in his mouth and then tell him not to apologize, if not for anything else than the appearance of insensitivity or to the offended.

[squanto]

4. Right on the money!!!!!

If a winger had said those exact same words he/she would be said to be using "code speech".

It was wrong and the sooner he apologizes for it the better, but he better not wait too long.

[haymaker]

9. More of the same bullshit.

You are the ones practicing codespeech and it is getting boring!

He won't and shouldn't apologize.

Let it go. Let ...... it.......go. You better move on to calling Dean pro-Healthy Forests Initiative. I mean, why not? You folks have tried everything else.

Vote Bush and get relax.

[knowledgeispower]

31. Ridiculous

Look, do you ACTUALLY think Dean was saying the Dems should pander to racists??? Of course he wasn't. He was saying that the Dems need to make these people understand why it is in THEIR interest to vote Dem, which is an EXCELLENT point. The confederate-flag waving crowd has been voting Repub for a long time even though the Repubs really don't represent any of their interests.

[w4rma]

27. Dean & Sharpton hand in hand after the debates

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

Howard Dean campaigns in Tallahassee

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Dean, making his first campaign foray into North Florida, spoke at a rally in Jacksonville then addressed more than 500 people at a luncheon of the Capital Tiger Bay Club.
…
Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[tedoll78]

3. Serious question..

Why now instead of several months ago? Anyone have an answer to this one, other than some snide remark or a nervous laugh? I'd like a legit, straightforward answer on this one. I give extra points for those admitting that it's just politics.

[squanto]

5. Yes, it's just politics

And Dean was the one playing it.

[JNelson6563]

42. Where was your outrage several months ago?

I really have to question your motives. This morning I come in and browse and, though I've never noticed you before, today you are everywhere there is something negative being said about Dean (which IS everywhere on DU today).

So, where was your outrage back when Dean first said he wants the votes of those stupid enough to wave the conf. flag??? Have you been repressing? What's the deal?

Feigned outrage is getting pretty tiresome. Got another routine by chance?

Julie

[baby_bear]

6. He wasn't as much a challenge then

I think it's simple as that.

s_m

[Eloriel]

8. Yeah, and why did the DNC give him a standing O when he said

the same thing at their Winter Meeting:

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

Eloriel

[AP]

12. Several months ago the statement was different.

Before it was a more vague "why aren't these people voting for Democrats."

This week it morphed into "I want to be the candidate for these people."

One of many implications of the new statement is that there are a lot of people like that and their votes are worth getting. Another implication is that you're not asking these people to reconsider their problems with race.

[CWebster]

18. Only in your imagination

It isn't a new statement--it is an old statement.

[jburton]

24. "Several months ago the statement was different."

Well, I get your point.

However, several months ago Dean was at one percent or something nationwide, so that has something to do with the piling on as well.

[AP]

30. Look at it from Edwards's perspective

Apparently he's doing pretty well with black voters. (It was the black vote that really came out for him in 98 -- he's very indebted, and, apparently the black community is responding to him everywhere.)

If he's going to rely on this vote in the primaries, he can't have Dean going around as the frontrunner, getting a lot of publicity saying things that he thinks will keep his vote home on primary day. He's got to stand up and fight for this issue, if it could possibly be the issue that gets him over the top.

[knowledgeispower]

32. Good point

I noticed how a lot of blacks in the audience directed their questions at him. Might have just been that particular crowd, but it seems that he has really struck a chord with the black community.

[MercutioATC]

7. For all those who have an issue with Dean's statement...

Why? The message (for those of you to whom find English difficult) is this:

Southern voters who display the Confederate flag and southern black voters might be two groups that are percieved as diametrically opposed, but they share the same basic human needs; jobs, education and health care. The only way we can win is if we can get people of differing philosophies to stand together, realizing that their common needs and goals outweigh their differences. I want to be the candidate that speaks to these people.

Do you REALLY want to say tht inclusion is a bad thing?

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

13. Oooh, you played the nazi card.

just lost all credibility in any debate.

B'Bye..

[imax2268]

26. sounds to me

that squanto is just looking to flame the Dean supporters...

Hey man...that's cool if you support Sharpton...but he will not make it past the primaries...face it..

[squanto]

40. Hey

I am not a man, man.

[billbuckhead]

29. It used to be that if you played the Confederate flag card you lost

But Howard Dean is trying to change that. Just imagine if Trent Lott or Guiliani said " I still want to be the candidate of the white guy in a pickup truck with Confederate flag." But Howrad Dean is trying change this old symbol. His latest talk about race in America has all the imagery of a blue jeans commericial or some working class beer ad.

[SahaleArm]

37. Only in this debate.

And it's Godwin's Law:).

[BallaFaseke]

15. Why not if helps get a Dem elected? n/t

[aldian159]

17. exactly n/t

[newyawker99]

41. Hi BallaFaseke!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AP]

14. Candidates are presumed to mean what they say.

Dean said he wanted to be the candidate "for" these people.

I don't know about you, but when I hear that a candidate is for some group of people, I presume it means that he or she looks after their interests.

The flag is metaphor for racism (regardelss of whether all people who waive it intend it to have that meaning).

So when you say you're for the flag waivers, you have to explain which interest you're for and which you're against, and specifically if you're againts the racism. You also have to explain whether you think that there are LOTS of people like that, or just a small percentage, because you're talking like you think there are lots of them.

[maha]

43. Racism isn't an "interest."

"I don't know about you, but when I hear that a candidate is for some group of people, I presume it means that he or she looks after their interests."

Yes, and what are their interests? Their interests are the economy, and the environment, and education, and all those other things that are probably your interest, too.

Dean's point was not to pander to racism, but to reach out to these people to get them to understand that when they vote for racist Republican candidates they are just hurting themselves.

explained in more detail here

[AP]

46. For a lot of people, waiving a confederate flag is expressing an interest

in maintaining a racial divide in America.

When you say you embrace these people because they're poor, you have to address how you feel about the racism. If you don't want to, you never should have mentioned the flag in the first place.

And you have to address whether you really think there are a lot of people like this, because you're implying that you think this is a big demographic.

[LiberalTexan]

10. Bush bashing..........

WHERE WAS IT TONIGHT? I heard Bush's name only a handful of times. It was all Dean, Dean, Howard, Dean, Dean.....bad candidate. Bad!

It was a weak argument for them to start out with. It made our whole party look bad. It was an embarrassment and now we have embarrassing articles to go with it. So many independent voters out there who MAY vote Dem and the candidates harp on the Confederate flag instead of the more important issues like how many of our sons and daughters are coming home in body bags.

The candidates really NEED to press the issues of the day and let people know what dire straights we are in.

I would have looked those kids in the eye and asked them if any of them knew someone over in Iraq. And, how many of them care what happens to them? Because obviously this administration doesn't....and why. There should have been less slinging mud at each other and more at Bush.

I was disappointed with the whole night. And, it could have been something really, really positive as exposure to these kids.

[CWebster]

16. It's true..."to drive a wedge"

and it is a disgrace.

Dean, now wronged by the party which, in many ways, propelled Dean's popularity wirh Democrats angry with their representitives.. Should he start to appear the underdog, the base will go to bat for him even more

[Julien Sorel]

20. Kind of a heads Dean wins, tails Dean wins situation.

Howard Dean can't lose. Can't keep his fool mouth shut, either, but that's besides the point.

[CWebster]

21. Like I try to tell you, Bunter

You are not helping yourself.

[Scott Lee]

35. That's the funniest part

I wonder if all these yapping dogs nipping at Dean's heels realize that they are actually bolstering the guy's cred?

(sung to the tune of "Who Let The Dogs Out")

[Forkboy]

19. Clark and Kerry supporters seem especially troubled by this

[CWebster]

22. Well yeah

They want to bring down Dean to prop up one of their boys.

[Code_Name_D]

38. Its becase they have no plan in the south, and they know it.

Clark's big "sothern sweep stratigy" is nothing more than the fact he is a 4 Star Genral to play on the military vote. Passive agresive IS the intire Democratic stratigy, and has been for the past 3 years. This dispite how promonontly the South plays in the campain. Clark even skipped out of Iowa (not doing so hot in the primaries) arguing that he was going to focuse on the "centrist" states, namly the South and Mid West.

Along comes Dean with an actual stratigy. To address the economic needs of the poor. Weather they happen to be black, OR white. Gee, what a novel concept that is.

This has got to scare the pants off the DLC, now at risk of loosing there cusshy jobs.

[dolo amber]

23. It was undoubtably worded badly...

What he was SAYING, however is true.

"THESE PEOPLE VOTE AGAINST THEIR OWN BEST ECONOMIC INTEREST."

He should not have to apologise for speaking the truth. This is what we WANT our people to do. You all know that there are unfriendly eyes on this site, we need them to see us standing together, not quibbling like a bunch of children.

Surely we can all agree on that, yes?

Good, I knew you could. Now let's all play nice together and tomorrow we'll work on colors...:eyes:

[baby_bear]

25. Dean's statement should be construed as one of unity

I so often wonder why so many people I know who are middle class think that Bush is their economic buddy.

I don't care about the Confederate flag for the purpose of discussing economics. The point is to recognize which party represents the best interests of oneself and one's principles.

I think Dean's overall point was that Bush is NOT that person and the Republicans are NOT that party, for so many people who nevertheless vote that way in the South. Of course, it also applies to every other area in the country. Maybe the problem is that the conversation was about the South in particular.

It's no different in Washington State, except for the flag issue!

s_m

[angee_is_mad]

28. Did he ever have them?

Did Dean ever have the key constituencies? After tonight, he can hang up getting the black vote. He is going to need every redneck, confederate flag waving, pickup truck driving white man he can get.

[Scott Lee]

33. I'm sure Dean is crying - as he continues to lead the pack

Allow me to pull out my fiddle and begin a sad dirge for all you Dean Haterz, who just can't seem to get something ugly to stick to the guy no matter how hard you try.

Key of E minor ok?

[DrFunkenstein]

34. Deprogrammed Deanie Explains The Difference of Then And Now

"I'm cool with the longhand version of what Dean is saying. The problem with saying something with a provocative hook, however, is that you damn well better play the whole verse every time around. If not, if you just throw out the provocation without the explanation and it ends being no different from Ben "Cooter" Jones driving around southwest Virginia in the General Lee.

So is Dean a racist? Oh God, no. This guy has as much use for the Confederate Flag as the Nazi Flag. But once again, he's proven to be extraordinarily careless.

Which brings me back to yesterday's discussion ... if we're going to convince the American people to dump George W. Bush, do we really think it's a good idea to promote someone with the same foot-in-mouth disease?"

http://www.danconley.com/

Salon elaborates:

Dean could easily have pointed out that he phrased his comment slightly differently this time, and he could see how it was misinterpreted. It is, after all, somewhat different to say that you want to "be the candidate" for those who wave the Confederate flag than to say that you want to bring those voters into your party.

The latter suggests at least some effort to change hearts and minds, while the former implies that you just want to be their standard-bearer. Sure, he calls the Confederate flag a "loathsome symbol," a "racist symbol," and he says the party shouldn't embrace it. But on the matter of admitting that he made a teeny, tiny error, Dean won't budge.

Had he simply answered the question he was asked by an audience member—"Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature?"—he might have gotten off more easily. But instead of explaining what he wants to do for African-Americans, Dean decides to talk about white people.

It was shockingly tone deaf for Dean to respond this way. The question was, how will you be sensitive to the needs of black people? Dean's response was, by working to help white people.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090748/

<>

[Scott Lee]

36. Dean Haterz go to extreme lengths to make him "wrong"...

When in fact, he was not wrong at all. That's why he doesn't have to apologize.

The latter suggests at least some effort to change hearts and minds, while the former implies that you just want to be their standard-bearer. Sure, he calls the Confederate flag a "loathsome symbol," a "racist symbol," and he says the party shouldn't embrace it. But on the matter of admitting that he made a teeny, tiny error, Dean won't budge.

Then who's the child here - you or Dean? Dean won't admit he was wrong (and clearly by the substance of his comment, he was not wrong), but you have to make a mountain out of a "teeny, tiny error".

How does your florsheim taste?

[TexasPatriot]

39. Edwards is not my candidate of choice

but i'm sorry, he nailed southerners regarding Dean on the c-flag issue in the debate last night... Edwards' quote:

Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do. That's the last thing in the world we need in the South.

I grew up in the South. I grew up with the very people that you're talking about. And what Al Sharpton just said is exactly right. The people that I grew up with, the vast majority of them, they don't drive around with Confederate flags on pickup trucks.

One of the problems that we have with young people today is people talk down to you. You know, you get all pigeon-holed. They've stereotype you.

Exactly the same thing happens with people from the South. I have seen it. I have grown up with it. I'm here to tell you it is wrong. It is condescending. And the only way that we as a party are going to win the White House back is to reach out to everybody and treat them with the dignity and respect that they're entitled to.

That's what we ought to be doing.

When Dean says what he said - it legitimizes the stereotype. Austin was the second most educated city in America behind Madison WI when I was attending UT, and I doubt much has changed. Maybe those of you not from the south dont understand - but i'm telling you that Edwards absolutely nailed this - and i'm afraid Dean did serious damage to his credibility as a result. When someone starts targeting you in terms of generalizations, the natural defense is to see the generalization speaking to you - which is why Edwards very carefully chose his first words as 'someone like you' - which, to the southerner listening, meant 'another carpetbagger yankee that thinks he knows what's best for us'.

Maybe Dean didn't realize... he certainly didn't intend to take such a stance - his intent was clearly the opposite - but this one is going to come back to him over and over and over and over again (even if he apologizes).

[quaker bill]

44. Carping from the liberal left

Poor babies, there is a candidate who might want some of the votes of the ideologically impure. Oh the scandal! How can this be!

If you tell the truth that our ideas are actually better for workers and the poor, you might get some of these folks to switch sides and vote for us.

Heaven forbid! They are not pure! They don't think like us! They will disrupt the liberal tea party! (herbal with honey) They will soil the doilies! This must be stopped! We didn't invite them!

Until we get down from our self made moral pedestal and take the fight to the streets, we will lose. The repugs know this and will favor all the ideological purity we want to foist on ourselves.

[Kamika]

45. Thats GREAT

if the other cadidates smear him by saying hes too southern etc guess wholl vote for him

[kaitykaity]

47. Locking.

Originator is admitted FReeper "Holden Magroin".

Thanks,


kaitykaity
DU Moderator