this shows why Dean should not apologize

[pruner]

Debate stirs Yuba pupils

By Munira Syeda/Appeal-Democrat

…

The Rev. Al Sharpton compared the Confederate flag to America's swastika and ordered Howard Dean to apologize for his comment on wanting to be "the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

Dean, a former Vermont governor, didn't budge. Calling the Confederate flag a loathsome symbol, he said he wasn't a bigot and that "I am tired of being divided by racism; I am tired of being divided by abortion, by gay rights."

Dean's unwavering stance appealed to Yuba College student Melissa Mosley of Olivehurst.

She was one of 20 students watching the live debate in the college library.

"He has strong views, strong opinions, and he is ready to stick by them," Mosley, 31, said.

Mosley, who grew up in the South, liked the fact that Dean didn't apologize.

"I believe that Dean actually stood up for what he believes in," she said.

As for the "rebel flag," it doesn't have a place now, and "it should stay with history," Mosley said.

…

http://www.appeal-democrat.com/articles/2003/11/05/news/local_news/news2.txt

[Terwilliger]

1. because of this one person?

who also said the flag didn't have a place now and should "stay with history"?

[pruner]

3. I put more stock in what this person says than most of what I read here

with no polls indicating any such thing, half the people here have already declared with certainty that Dean has seriously hurt his campaign.

the last time people here said that was following his Meet the Press appearance.

I think we all know what happened after that.

:bounce:

[Julien Sorel]

2. Gee, what neutral use of language.

Sharpton (an unpopular figure) 'ordered' Dean to apologize, but Dean 'didn't budge;' the writer then goes on to play up
Dean's straw man apologetic that he isn't a racist, while not pointing out that Sharpton himself specifically said Dean isn't a racist. The writer also quotes exactly one person in support of her position.

That's some fair and balanced journalism there.

[displacedtexan]

4. Sorry, folks, but this person is too much like the chimp for me.

I need a statesman in the White House... damn!

[Julien Sorel]

5. Look at the embarrassed smile on CMB's face.

She looks like a mother ashamed of her son or something.

[Terwilliger]

8. huh?

don't stray too far, Billy

[Julien Sorel]

10. ?

You don't recognize an embarrassed smile when you see one?

[Terwilliger]

15. no, you're stretching

all of them looked like they were milling around on stage after the debate...and CMB is always smiling

[Julien Sorel]

17. I recognize that smile.

It's the one my mother got on her face when I did or said something embarrassing in public, like the time I knocked the punch bowl onto the floor at a party while horsing around. YMMV. :shrug:

[tinnypriv]

60. Dude, you're stretching on the Kreminologist stuff

;-)

[mzmolly]

63. The reality is Dean and Al were joking, Carol laughed...

*sheesh*

[Quahog]

66. You're right molly

And if anyone had actually WATCHED the program (rather than cutting and pasting the photo), they would know it. The three of them were yucking it up after the debate, there was no confrontation here.

It's amazing to me sometimes how many Dems who care enough to post on an internet forum for Dems seem to live for moments when they can aggravate the problems within the party.

[RetroLounge]

29. What? Emabarrased?

are you projecting again?

[Julien Sorel]

36. As a matter of fact, I'm embarrassed for Dean,(and his

supporters) as well, but I don't think I'm projecting.

[Democrats unite]

6. As I said in another thread Dean is showing his true colors

It comes down to one thing and one thing only, Rebel flag = hate, no matter how you try to sell it. And I am not buying what Dean is trying to sell.

[Ladyhawk]

20. I agree.

And it saddens me to see so many in a small town in California. I think most people don't realize the impact the flag has on others.

[mzmolly]

64. Jesse Jackson Jr. sees it another way...

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," Cong. Jesse Jackson Jr.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10232&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1301

[maha]

30. You have no idea what Dean is trying to sell.

He's not advocating the display of Confederate flags. He's saying that it's time Dems reached out to white working-class southern men who vote Republican, because those guys are being badly hurt by Republican policies and don't seem to realize it.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. I think everyone here knows Dean isn't a bigot, but by refusing to

acknowledge that he has offended people and apologizing to those he offended, he's stuck himself in quicksand.

I'm not offended by what he said, and I understand what he meant to say, but I didn't have to think twice to know it would offend many blacks and many white Southerners. Sharpton and Edwards really gave him good advice last night but he refused to dialog with them, refused to see that they were making points just as valid as any he made.

If Dean can't dialog with two fellow Democratic candidates, one of them a black New Yorker, the other a white North Carolinian who grew up poor, how does he think he can possibly dialogue with groups of blacks or Southern whites?

[maha]

49. He's stubborn, I'll give him that.

Kerry and Edwards and the others who kicked at Dean's flag remark last night were just demagoging and ought to apologize to Dean.

To Al Sharpton in particular, I say: You're supposed to be a minister. Read your Bible, especially Matthew 5:43-48. You're real quick to drag Martin Luther King's name into debates, but I don't think either MLK or Jesus would have said "we must hate and vilify white racists, and not try to talk to them."

[Code_Name_D]

74. This is redicules.

Dean isn't a bigot, and he didn't say any thing offesive, , but he should STILL appoligise?

[KittyWampus]

48. NOT ALL SOUTHERN MEN ARE "REBELS"

who drive around with the Confederate flags and not all southern white men drive pick up trucks.

That is the point.

You want to talk about low wage southerners who vote GOP cause they fall for the wedge issues than why the HECK would you bring up those who wear Confed flags on their trucks?

[maha]

50. Who says they are?

That wasn't Dean's point, either. He was talking about that section of white working-class voters who vote Republican against their own economic interests.

[ma4t]

55. more than than

I'm not sure of this but perhaps Dean has also figured out something that most folks at DU are unable to grasp - the fact that not all those good old boys with Confederate flags on their pickups are racists or even consider the flag to be a racist symbol.

Believe it or not, many symbols mean different things to different people. Those old enough to remember the "peace sign" of the 60's might also know that it was also the "V for victory" sign of WWII. A flaming cross is a distinctive symbol of the Ku Klux Klan; oddly enough it is also a symbol for "the church aflame" and is used by several mainline protestant denominations. Does anyone here want to make the claim that the United Methodist Church or the Presbyterian Church, USA is a racist organization because it uses a Klan symbol? Perhaps the Democratic Party would not have to write off such a large part of the South if its candidates didn't dismiss such a large part of the voters there as beneath contempt.

I don't own a Confederate flag or a functioning firearm but frankly, I was pissed off after hearing the comments made by those who took after Dean last night. It's pretty hard to be very enthusiastic for a candidate who has mischaracterized and insulted your friends.

[ma4t]

56. more selling

I'm not sure of this but perhaps Dean has also figured out something that most folks at DU are unable to grasp - the fact that not all those good old boys with Confederate flags on their pickups are racists or even consider the flag to be a racist symbol.

Believe it or not, many symbols mean different things to different people. Those old enough to remember the "peace sign" of the 60's might also know that it was also the "V for victory" sign of WWII. A flaming cross is a distinctive symbol of the Ku Klux Klan; oddly enough it is also a symbol for "the church aflame" and is used by several mainline protestant denominations. Does anyone here want to make the claim that the United Methodist Church or the Presbyterian Church, USA is a racist organization because it uses a Klan symbol? Perhaps the Democratic Party would not have to write off such a large part of the South if its candidates didn't dismiss such a large part of the voters there as beneath contempt.

I don't own a Confederate flag or a functioning firearm but frankly, I was pissed off after hearing the comments made by those who took after Dean last night. It's pretty hard to be very enthusiastic for a candidate who has mischaracterized and insulted your friends.

[Mike_from_NoVa]

46. Heritage, not Hate

Democrats Unite, this is the third or fourth place you've posted this identical opinion. Of course you're free to speak your mind. Even over and over and over again. But if you really want to see "Democrats Unite", then you better get into the idea of expanding the tent.

Down here in Virginia, there are sweatshirts and t-shirts for sale that are marketed to teenage girls. The shirts are often pink, have the confederate flag on 'em, little roses and flowery script lettering saying "Heritage not Hate." You may never have seen these, but they're all over the place in the South. You can buy 'em at the Food Lion if you want.

The kids WEAR these shirts. They BELIEVE the slogan. To them it's not about racism, it's a matter of Southern FAITH *AND* PRIDE. They don't understand when somebody says otherwise. They simply don't comprehend. That someopne would find their dumbass flag offensive is as alien to them as the fact that they can't understand that people associate it with hate is alien to you.

(BTW, they find your "rainbow" flag offensive too. They've been told it offends God!!! Like I said, it's a matter of faith.)

Now, I was born and raised a New Yorker and am considered a Yankee here and always will be. I often find myself marveling at the convoluted nonsense these people will twist into their minds to keep positive memories of the stupid war they fought and deservedly lost 138 1/2 years ago. I think they should put the stupid flags away and forget about it already. But they won't. It doesn't matter what I think - or what you think.

WE NEED ALL THE VOTES WE CAN GET. Nothing else is as important. I will not tolerate another four years of the idiot and his morally bankrupt administration.

If we're going to WIN in 2004, we are going to have to pay attention to what EVERYBODY thinks and reach out to groups we've previously written off. Nobody should be written off.

So you made your point about the flag. Good for you. It's over. Let's get out there and try to win now, ok?

[DancingBear]

54. Do they believe - or are they conditioned?

Mike,

I, too, live in NoVA , and I've seen 'em at Food Lion. I've also spent time in southern VA and NC, and talked with the kids who wear these shirts. I'd argue here that this is a conditioned response rather than a sincere belief. I've talked with kids who couldn't name their state capitol but can spout chapter and verse to me about southern pride and "granddaddys war".

With that said, how does one pay attention to such a belief, and converesly reach out ? (Like you, I am transplanted, but unlike you I will be leaving soon.) I honestly do not know how to respond to this line of thinking. What I find to be rational thought gets twisted around (in their minds) and comes out as southern bashing.

While I know we need every vote possible, I am curious to your thoughts as to how to reach through this (what seems to me, anyway) cultural impasse.

[Mike_from_NoVa]

59. Short answer - Both

Your final thought is a question about cultural and attitudinal shifts that don't get solved overnight. Our "southern pride" kids both believe and are indeed conditioned. Maybe it's an American version of the anti-american/anti-semitic madrassas in the Middle East.

I think this is a far bigger question than the 2004 election can hope to thoughtfully address or solve. And frankly, I don't think there's a simple answer. Time will continue to be on our side. The entertainment industry can help too and probably will. I also think that the exposure to other viewpoints and the approach to a more American and less regional consensus that comes with young people being exposed to some sort of mandatory national service (I know a lot of folks hate the idea) could be really valuable. This is one of the main reasons I think national service is more of a good than bad idea. Finally, with a good moral national leader who can use the presidential "bully pulpit" - once in it, not before - and tailor government policies to match the rhetoric, reeducation can begin on a grander scale.

Since this is something that does not get solved overnight, I've concluded our only choice is to try to win. That means attracting voters who may be twisted up with "heritage not hate" logic, but still need relief from a government that panders to them well but really doesn't do a damn thing but stand on their necks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Was That Picture Photoshopped?

NT

[displacedtexan]

11. no, it wasn't photoshopped. it's a wire photo

taken after last night's debate. look at their clothes. did you watch the debate?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Of Course

I can't believe he got in Sharpton's face like that... Your confirmation makes me believe it...


The clothes have nothing to do with it... It's easy to photoshop a picture.....

[wndycty]

27. Here is the link, it was not photoshopped

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/pl/093003election&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=11&a=0&t=&prev=10

Also

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/031105/photos_ts/mdf399307

[Julien Sorel]

42. Is Dean wearing a hairpiece in this picture??

Notice the change of color and texture at the front.

[JNelson6563]

34. You apparently didn't see it play out

I did. They were all milling about afterward. When Dean and Sharpton met this played out. Right after the split second this photo was shot they both had their arms/hands on each other's shoulders and were talking and laughing.

Why does your post remind me of the commentary by the corporate media on Wellstone's memorial? Specifically, the ones who had not seen it.

Julie

[Quahog]

67. Me too Julie

I don't know exactly what was said, but the tone was light, it was clear they were joking around with each other (as photos taken seconds later prove). If I didn't know better, I might think that Dean was doing a "You dirty rat" James Cagney impression. I'm certain that they were just screwing around.

But this photo, I predict, will be posted a bazillion times here as proof that Dean is some kind of monster who attacks minorities.

Whatever.

[Julien Sorel]

12. There were several photos snapped during commercial breaks

with Dean in peoples' faces. I don't know if these were selectively shown around or what. There's a whole series of them with Dean and Sharpton, and Dean and Clark, where they look to be engaging in heated discussion, but we don't know for sure.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. He's Lucky He's In Polite Company....

NT

[Julien Sorel]

16. With those forearms? Dean would show Clark that

Rangers aren't so tough. And Sharpton is a preacher, and would turn the other cheek. ;-)

[bearfartinthewoods]

21. not a good image

can the pubbies use this in the campaign? is it public domain?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. It's An Awful Image

That's why I asked if it was photoshopped.....

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Exactly! Both of them are smart ass rich boys. eom

[mandyky]

7. I think the whole flag flap will help promote dialog

I think Dean will be aksed about this for months, and if he handles it the way he did last night, it will get people thinking and talking more about civil and equal rights. I also think Dean needs to add in there that he realizes not all Southerners drive pick ups or have Confederate flags in them. While I am glad Dean did not apologize for making the flag comment, maybe he could apologize if he offended people on both sides - blacks because they thought he stood up for the flag and southern whites by saying he did not mean to stereotype.

[maha]

53. Dean's taken on a big challenge.

He's expressing a good idea that can't fit on a bumper sticker or a sound byte. No longer possible! If your idea can't be explained in ten words or less, no one will ever listen!

That's why we lose to Republicans. We're not losing a war of ideas, but of memes. And, of course, news media just goes along with the spinning and doesn't allow anyone to actually explain an idea.

[neebob]

18. I think he needs to apologize

or at least admit it his wording was thoughtless. Otherwise it will dog him forever. Saying the Confederate flag is a loathesome symbol isn't going to win over any of those guys with it on their pickups, so then you have to wonder if he really meant what he said in the first place. And he may be tired of being divided by race, etc., but saying so is dismissive of those who are more tired of fighting for their rights. People who feel strongly the other way aren't going to vote for him, anyway.

[maha]

31. He's right not to apologize.

Dean is making a good point. The other candidates who are bashing him over the flag flap are demagoging the issue and should apologize.

[neebob]

35. Fair enough

I don't like the attacks, either.

[bearfartinthewoods]

69. psssst..he apologozed, so now is he wrong?

[Kamika]

19. Thats a good point

I want my candidate to stick to what he says

[Justice]

23. Even if He is Wrong....

His words were emotionally charged - the "clever" soundbite was not tuned to a broad audience, and thus different people heard different meanings in it. Dean supporters refuse to acknowledge this fact.

Dean is not a bigot - last night, when he talked more about his view, his view became clearer. He needs to speak more clearly, not more cleverly.

[Kamika]

24. actually Im loving this

the more the other candidates bash Dean about the confederate flag more and more southerners will vote for him

[Terwilliger]

25. should be a good trade-off for all the blacks Dean loses

:nuke:

[jeter]

28. Ha Ha Ha, look how desperate people have become over Dean

First, this won't make a difference when Jesse Jackson endorses Dean.

People are seeing it for what it is. Bullshit indignation by a bunch of wedge issue desperate elitist Democrats.

This hurts Dean only in your mind.

Bravo for not apologizing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

71. psssst..he apologized, so will you boo him now?

[pruner]

32. according to know-it-alls like you…

Dean wasn't getting any black votes anyway.

:shrug:

[slinkerwink]

52. this is from a black supporter on the dean blog

RE: Confederate Flag issue

As a black voter and Dean supporter, I would once again like to commend Dr. Dean for bringing this issue to the fore, and urge him: DON'T BACK DOWN!!

DON'T APOLOGIZE!

This issue will not go away, but Dr. Dean needs to stay strong and not waver. It took balls of steel for him to come as far as he has with it, and to not knuckle under to Sharpton and Edwards.

I would prefer that he not even repeat the line about "I think the Confederate flag is a loathsome symbol..." because that is an insult to the very folks he is trying to reach out to.

He might say: "I understand why many African-Americans and descendants of Union Army soldiers would be offended by the flag, BUT we need to put the Civil War behind us and unite around our common interests...." etc., etc.

The primary theme of interracial solidarity on the issues of economic and social justice is key. Getting this right --- in the South --- is ESSENTIAL for a decisive Democratic victory in 2004 and beyond.

Compared to that, the Rebel flag controversy is trifling.

GO DEAN!!

[wndycty]

26. No. . .

. . .many southerners are offended by the implication that they all drive pick-ups with Confederate flags.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Bingo....

I grew up in the semi rural south in the seventies.... Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were my heroes... I never owned a Confederate flag, never owned a rifle, and find that stereotype offensive....

[bearfartinthewoods]

38. considering yesterday's election results

we really need to consider how we can improve our lot in the southern states. Dean has a valid point but i am more than pissed by the way he threw the point away with an inappropriate choice of words. as has been mentioned, there are a number of images he could have used to convey the point without firing up this shit storm. it was a dumb thing to say.

[KaraokeKarlton]

58. And you aren't voting for Republicans, either, are you?

If you don't have the flag decal, Dean wasn't talking about you. Expanding the Democratic voting base isn't about talking to people already voting Democratic, it's about opening up a dialogue with people who aren't voting for Democrats and giving them something to think about. That's what Dean is doing and it's a GOOD thing.

[DemBones DemBones]

41. Sorry, I don't see him getting many Southern votes, not even if

he gets a Rebel flag tattooed on one forearm and a portrait of Robert E. Lee on the other and starts opening all his campaign appearances by twirling a baton while singing "Dixie."

We'll know in a few months which of us is correct in his/her prediction. Meanwhile, I'm loving all the new-found tolerance for the South here at DU!

[bearfartinthewoods]

43. new-found tolerance for the South

enjoy it while it lasts because it won't last long if history is our teacher.

[bearfartinthewoods]

70. psssst..he apologized, ..,,,is he still your candidate?

[1songbird]

40. Hey you guys whether or not Dean should apologize is being discussed

on C-Span right now. I'm not allowed to post yet. Check out C-Span now if you can.

[liberalcapitalist]

44. the rebel flag is America's swastika

Does Dean want the votes of godhatesfags.com, the American Nazi Party, etc.?

One of my reasons for voting Democrat is that I don't want to be in the same line as the racist, homophobe, polluter, corporate theif, and religious zealot.

[iverglas]

45. "I believe that Dean actually stood up for what he believes in"

Um ... so what?

Forgive me for dragging in my anecdotal experience of the US and USAmericans ... but what is this weird fixation I so often see from there -- the fixation on the strength with which someone (allegedly) holds his/her convictions? Who cares whether someone stands up for what s/he believes in if what s/he believes in is vile??

I am NOT saying that anything that Dean said is vile. I really have no opinion about what he said, at all.

I'm just wondering why someone's favourable opinion of Dean, which is completely devoid of any content except for her approval of having an opinion and sticking to it, is of any consequence to anyone.

"He has strong views, strong opinions, and he is ready to stick by them," Mosley, 31, said.
Mosley, who grew up in the South, liked the fact that Dean didn't apologize.
"I believe that Dean actually stood up for what he believes in," she said.

I've seldom seen three such empty and pointless sentences in my life.

Surely the integrity, or public-spiritedness, or compassion, or correctness, or fair-mindedness, or just about any quality, of someone's convictions should be far more relevant and far more talked about than the strength of his/her convictions. A complete racist homophobe misogynist can have strong convictions, and I'm not going to tell the world I "like" that person on the basis that s/he won't apologize for his/her convictions.

Cripes. It's Jerry Springerism, that's what it is.

Okay, pointless diversion over now. Back to arguing about people I haven't bothered finding out much about ...

.

[JNelson6563]

47. surely you jest

I've seldom seen three such empty and pointless sentences in my life.

Been avoiding GD lately? ;-) If seen far more worthless things commended here for "logic", "reason" and "clear thinking". Often of late.

Julie

[iverglas]

51. actually

"Been avoiding GD lately?"

Yes.

;)

.

[maha]

57. What Dean was trying to say.

Those of you who still don't get it -- read these.

Rebel Flag Flap Shows Media Failure

Confederate Flag Bum Rap on Howard Dean

Rocking the Confederacy?

[robbedvoter]

62. WSJ, Weekly Standard, Faux, Paula Zahn, NY Post all whitewash Dean

this is today's Funniest headline in from the NY Post Online - "DEAN STANDS BY 'POOR WHITE' VOTE"
yesterday's was "DEMOCRATS UNCIVIL TO DEAN OVER THE DIXIE FLAP"
Somehow all the media whores understand Dean - and blame all others.
I think if they tried half as hard, Lott woud still me majority leader. You'd think they'd enjoy turning the tables on us... :shrug:

[mmonk]

61. Where is Olivehurst?

[Darth_Kitten]

65. Dean shouldn't apologize......

:evilgrin: Now say you are sorry, Mr. Dean, you are not a racist or a bigot but you need to apologize. :eyes: Nope, stand your ground. :)
Sometimes you may just have to include people who feel marginalized, or trampled on, and bring them into the fold. :) I really feel that's what Dean meant.
People who feel isolated or neglected will direct a lot of hate/confusion/misunderstanding towards blacks, women, gays, and other minorities. (IMHO) Perhaps some of these so-called confederate flag waving guys and gals with pickup trucks will find a sense of belonging with the democratic party. Perhaps some of them are just frustrated and angry people striking out. :( :shrug:
I don't know, hope that came across okay. :)


Rockin' the Kitten 2004 :evilgrin:

[bearfartinthewoods]

72. psssst..he apologized, is the ground shifting beneath you?

[blm]

68. Will it matter to you if he does apolgize eventually?

Just curious, since you seem so adamant about his rightness.

[bearfartinthewoods]

73. i am waiting on pins and needles for an answer to this question.