NOW are we allowed to talk to the "guys with rebel flags on their trucks?"

[farmbo]

Another bloodbath in Dixie. We were 0-2 in races where DLC- backed Democrats were out-polled and out-maneuvered by lackluster and baggage-laden GOP candidates who sucked up the votes of the NASCAR Dads.
(Memo to Terry McAuliffe: Whatever you're doin'...it ain't workin'!)

Are the NASCAR Dads who voted for Barbour and Fletcher--the guys with rebel flags on their pickups-- still off limits; their issues a new "third rail" of Democratic politics?

Do we take risks and reach out to new constituencies...or just continue to play the ball down the middle of the fairway; offending (and inspiring) no one?

Or perhaps we should just call it a day, stay "correct" on the relevant cultural issues, and resign ourselves to the status of a permanent minority party?

Our choice.

[AP]

1. How many do you think there are, and what do you want to say to them?

Do you really think Dems are losing because they're not reaching the flag waivers.

[maha]

6. Yes, I do.

A whopping, large percentage of white working class people in the South vote Republican, and the Republicans are screwing them royally. If we can get these people to see they are being used, the GOP dominance in the South would disappear. And would that not be a good thing?

[northzax]

18. right. and an overwhelming proportion

of African-Americans vote democratic, and the Dems haven't done anything to deserve that. The point is, that the competition for working class voters by the two parties is a show, who can pander to their hot-button issues, and by using scapegoating.

you tell urban blacks that their life sucks because of racism and a lack of civil rights, and that the other guy will make it even worse. course, you don't bother to make it any better, because who else are they voting for?

You tell angry white men in the South that their lives suck because the government is taking away thier rights, and their God and their guns, and because the other guy will make it worse.

Both arguments have serious undertones of racism, and are so skillfully crafted that they can appeal to people who aren't even racist in their everyday lives, and are based on 'truisms' that are so ingrained in culture that we will have serious trouble undercutting them. neither voters will switch parties, all you can ado is nullify them.

[AP]

26. How many of them waive the confederate flag?

And I think Dems are already talking to the ones who don't.

[Hep]

16. Flag waivers?

What are those? People who dismiss Flags?

[JNelson6563]

2. We don't want their votes!

This proves we don't need "those people"!! And Dean should apologize for saying we do!! That bastard! :-)

Julie

[vi5]

5. So then you think the DLC's strategy is the right move?

I mean correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the DLC's strategy to reach out to Nascar Dad's more or less the exact same thing that gets them bashed on her on a regular basis?

[Atlant]

17. "Reaching out to them" =/= "Becoming them"

"Reaching out to them" does not equal "Becoming them" in our policies.

The DLC's message is to become just like them; stand for nothing that
the Republicans didn't already stand for first and better.

The Dean message is to show them that the Republicans have not
been good to them, even if the Repubs appear to support their
ideas about god, guns, gays, and abortion.

Atlant

[vi5]

30. Yeah, that's the big difference....

Honestly, the right has nothing on the left's blind, myopic convluted justification.

[Bandit]

Worked great in Kentucky and Mississippi

DLC forever.........

[maha]

8. Message aborted ...

Oh, sorry, I didn't notice you were being cute! I need more coffee

[vi5]

3. I'm confused....the DLC trying to reach Nascar Dads=bad...

But Dean trying to reach out to guys with confederate flags on their trucks=good?

I'm really confused because to this undecided political novice it seems like they are both advocating the same thing (reaching out to non-traditional dem constituencies, particularly in the south). So why is one bad and one good?

I read and re-read you post several times and I'm not sure if you are saying its a good thing or a bad thing to reach out to these groups. If its a good thing why would you bash the DLC's efforts to do so?

[mandyky]

7. LOL, I think farbo was posting tongue in cheek

can't be sure, but that is how I took it.

[vi5]

10. But it is a serious question.....

Personally I think Dean's approach on the issue is fine. It could have been worded a little better but I agree with the sentiment.

But the thing is that I agreed with the sentiment when the DLC broached the subject a few months ago and were vilified as Bush appeasers and ignoring the base. And if my feeble memory serves me correctly most of that bashing came from the Dean camp. Not all of it maybe, but a good chunk of it.

[Hep]

19. The DLC

and the NEw Democrats try to reach NASCAR dads by running stock cars in Busch series races.

Dean tries to reach southern voters by offering education and healthcare.

[CWebster]

11. the DLC has written off all "special interests"

except the upper middle class and corporate backers.

[vi5]

12. Well then why did they get flamed for trying to reach Nascar Dads?

Remember the memo that was put out a few months back that got them flamed for ignoring their constituencies by trying to reach out to rural and southern voters (aka NASCAR Dad's)? Last I checked that particular group wasn't made up of white collar corporate executives.

[Hep]

20. FOR trying to reach?

Or for HOW they're trying to reach?

[CWebster]

27. Missed that one

only saw the atacks on the activists and peace protestors cast as losing remnants of the 60's.


Great to have them on our side, isn't it?

[farmbo]

36. Musgrove was a DLC member...they were spotted at the scene of the crime

So I lay at least part of the blame on them (DLC). They ran an Old Democratic campaign which went hard negative at the end, a tatic which-- by all appearances-- backfired. So, at the very least, they get failing grades for that.

You make a good point that some DLC rhetoric suggests that they are attempting to reach out to NASCAR Dads (NDs). But the point of my post is that, despite their rhetoric, they need to allow our candidates to at least talk to the NDs in their own language...not to act as Thought Police to shout a candidate down when he/she mutters a phrase which may have meaning to the NDs, but has coded meaning inside the beltway.

[mandyky]

4. I live in KY, so I am affected and

Hell yes. KY have had a Dem Gov. for 32 years. We have to change our Southern strategy, and definitely fire Terry MacAuliffe.

[mmonk]

9. I live in NC and alot of republican votes here

come from people that work white color jobs at IBM or Sumitomo and drive SUV's, mini vans, and Lexus.

[CWebster]

13. and when their jobs get shipped offshore?

The point is it is understandable when Republicans vote Republican to protect their interests. But when people who suffer under Republican policies vote Republican, because they are appealed to culturally, they lose economically and in other ways as well. They are manipulated.

[realFedUp]

14. Just the issues please

Everyone in this country, whatever they believe in,
needs affordable, accessible health coverage and care.
We all need to have infrastructure that works, police
and fire personnel funded, good teachers and schools
that aren't falling apart etc.

This is Dean's message...everyone needs this stuff
and he wants to be President of everyone, not just
the new Dems, progressives, Greens, Indies etc.

[mzmolly]

15. Dean is talking about things which we'd rather ignore.

He's making us uncomfortable. All great leaders do.

I must admit, I think his heart is in the right place, but sometimes his mouth is a bit slow to follow. ;)

I don't know how this will play out, but one can't deny, Dean is changing America.

His grass roots campaign will forever change how campaigns are run, and his dialogue has got us talking about all kinds of things we'd rather not "deal with."

For that and many other things, he has my respect and support. I just hope he survives the storm ;) If so, he'll be stronger for it.

Additionally, I don't think anyone can accuse Dean of 'pandering' after last night huh? :shrug:

[CWebster]

21. You're right

It is in everyone's face whereas the others just want to discuss "mending, not ending affirmative action" and using hip-hop soundtracks in their campaign commercials,or maybe putting their arm around Al Sharpton but when it comes to supporting the Black caucus about disenfranchised Black voters....they are nowhere to be found.

[pansypoo53219]

32. Dean comes off as american

not a northerner, not an eaasterner. He wants us all to do better. he is a big picture man, and ain't that nice after a spoiled momma's boy who only gives a shit for 'his' people and HIS PARTY.
let's come together as a country because we CAN do better.

[Nailzberg]

22. Maybe we could get a Dean sponsored stock car at Darlington

That would open some eyes.

Seriously though, I understand what Dean was saying, I think he made a misjudgement on classifying them as rebel flag guys, but I agree 100% with the sentiment. I think his opponents took the opportunity to open a racial divide that Dean was attempting to address.

Less seriously , maybe Dean should have called them the "guy with Dale Earnhart stickers in the back of their pickups" or the "guys with Calvin pissing on a Ford logo in the back of their pickup."
Well, that might alienate the Ford vote, but it would galvanize the Chevy and Dodge vote.

[Hep]

33. That idea is taken

http://www.monkeytime.org/Site%20Images/edwards%20nascar

[NewGuy]

23. There are damn few rebels in the south

I think Dean and any of us who refer to southern swing voters as "guys with rebel flags on their trucks?" are out of touch with reality. Most southerners (democrat, republican or independent) have no interest in the rebel flag or in confederate causes. They are neither red necks nor racists and generally are interested in the same issues as are northeners.

The problem is the perception that southerners are racist. Particularly by many of the blacks in the south who are strong democrats. The issue is not should we try to attract the southern swing voter, but how do we do so without losing the southern black vote.

[farmbo]

35. My friend from Alabama says young poeple still sport rebel flags...

...as a mark of hip rebelliousness; sort of like Deadhead stickers up North.

They tend to be economically disadvantaged and (at least in theory) should be ripe for a democratic message.

Your point about the Southern Black vote is a good one, though. Perhaps the right approach is a class-oriented (rather than race- oriented) approach.

[GumboYaYa]

24. It is funny in a sad way how

liberal Dems deride Republicans for seeing the world in simplistic good/bad terms, but then do exactly the same thing when the shoe is on the other foot.

For example, we laugh at GWB for saying the terrorists are evil doers and we are the good guys. We say life is more complicated than that. Look at the reasons for the terrorist mindset and address that. You can't simply write them off as bad and fail to address the underlying causes. If you do the terrorist mindset becomes self-perpetuating.

Apply this same logic to "Southerners with Rebel Flags on their Pick-up Trucks." I grew up with these folks and I can affirm that a large number of them are bigots, but even the bigots have some reedeeming characteristics. Some of the worst racists I know are also some of the most caring and devoted parents when it comes to their own children. Are they racists because they have evil in their hearts? Of course not. They are racists because they have been raised in an environment where their own personal troubles have been blamed on people of color when the true cause in many instances is the crony capitalism practiced by Republicans. Liberal Dems write these folks off as bigots and refuse to confront the real underlying causes of the bigotry. Moral superiority is easier than actually addressing the problems in an honest way.

I don't see much of a difference between our attitudes and GWB's attitude towards Arabs.

[CWebster]

28. It was deliberately used to inflame strong emotional responses

In the same way fear of terrorists is.

[leftofthedial]

25. this cultural slice of America was solidly Democratic before Reagan

Now they have been brainwashed into believing sleazebag conmen like Haley barbour are good for them.

I think it is nearly time that liberals and progressives embrace the Confederate flag ourselves. It is, after all, primarily a symbol of rebellion.

[Silverhair]

31. No, they defected big time in 72 also

[Brian Sweat]

29. The people who voted for Haley Barbour are not Democrats

and we do not want their vote. Anyone who freely associates with the Coulcil of Concervative Citizens is clearly a racists. The people of Mississippi know what Barbour is. The ones that voted for him, either didn't care or embraced his racism. We don't need them.

[leftofthedial]

34. who else don't we "need"?

Your implication that everyone who voted for Heley Barbour is a racist or is winking at racism is absurd.

Who gets to decide what standard is applied to which issues to determine Democratic "purity"?

This kind of puritanism is srong-headed and profoundly unliiberal.

Remember that when a Democrat is elected President, he or she will represent those people too.

[Brian Sweat]

37. That does mean a Democrat has to pander to them.

I find it rather odd that a DK supporter would stick up for these people. How do you feel about the DLC? The people that voted for Barbour make the DLC look like the World Workers Party. If you don't like the "triangulation" tactics used by the DLC, then how can you support the idea that our candidates should pander to people who would turn a blind eye to Barbour's clearly racists ties.

There are voters in the south that we can appeal to without selling our souls, but these are not some of them.

[Scott Lee]

38. Pander? As in try to get their vote???

You better hope so. Or say hellooooooooooo Bush 2004.