If Iraq is similar to Vietnam, when will we have our Dien Bien Phu?

[dawgman]

Because the way I see it the situation we are in right now is more comparable to the situation France was in regarding Vietnam.

We/they are/were a colonial power occupying a foreign and rightfully sovreign countries with a constantly worsening security problem and a constantly growing insurgent movement among the locals and some imports.

While I deplore this farce, and I wish dirty, naughty things would happen to all the members of this admin. in some max security federal prison, until there is a major loss, like the French suffered at Dien Bien Phu, I don't think that this travesty can be compared to the US/vietnam war.....yet.

[salmonhorse]

1. Comparable only in this sense...

We still think we're The Jolly Green Giant. Otherwise...

It is welcome to Babylon



And the Babylonians, by comparison, are not near as "demure" as the descendents of mountain & sea gods.

[truthspeaker]

2. I really hope it doesn't come to that...

But realistically we are in a no-win situation. Iraqis don't want us there, but if we leave we'll be replaced by Baathist thugs and/or Islamist extremists. Other nations won't help because of Shrubya's arrogance, but even if they would there seems to be a movement in Iraq to attack all foreigners. The only nations willing to help are Iraq's former colonial masters (Turkey and UK), and Bushco are so ignorant of history they don't even realize the problem with that. The American public and press are just now slowly beginning to realize that the whole pretext for the war was a lie, when it should have been obvious all along. Meanwhile the Taliban are on the way to taking Afghanistan back, and who knows where bin Laden is.

Well that's a depressing assessment. Can someone point out some reason for hope that I'm missing? Please?

[tnlefty]

7. Welcome and unfortnately I can't point out some reason for hope that

you're missing. Sorry.

[Devil Dog Dem]

3. Never. We didn't even have a Dien Bien Phu in the real Viet Nam

The situation is far less disadvantageous to us here (notice how I didn't say it is advantageous, just less disadvantageous) and I don't see a complete destruction of a major U.S. ground element at the hands of the opposition forces.

A Tet happening here? Perhaps; a Beirut happening here? Perhaps; a Mogadishu happening here? Perhaps. But a Dien Bien Phu? No.

[oldleftguy]

4. I agree.

We are ripe for a Tet offensive like event. Plus another Beirut if we have Marines/soldiers sleeping in a mulit-storied facility. God help the people who fight the corporate wars this administration starts. :nuke:

[Zero Gravitas]

5. Iraq is not like Vietnam

It's a mess, but it's no Vietnam.

[truthspeaker]

6. one similarity

I think the main similarity to Vietnam is George W. Bush was AWOL then and he's AWOL now. ;)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Exactly

The Iraqi's don't have a army of resistors and the backing of two superpowers....

Actually, if we leave Iraq it will be for the same reason we left Nam.... It just wasn't worth it....

[dawgman]

9. Isn't that what really drove the French out?

[jonoboy]

10. all I can see is more of the same

thats happened in the past few months..no great onslaught just more shattered families and lives, American and Iraqi and then a gradual withdrawal as Iraq descends into a sort of endless orderly chaos..but the oil will be secured.

[Johnyawl]

11. The French lost Dien Bien Phu...

...because of inadequate airpower/air resupply capability. We don't have that problem. The difference between Dien Bien Phu and Khe Sanh was overwhelming airpower, and the ability to resupple the Marines under the most adverse conditions. For a brilliant analysis of what happened at Dien Bien Phu read Bernard Fall's book Hell In A Very Small Place

[markus]

12. Those who literally believe history repeats itself

must repeat to themselves: "The movie Groundhog Day was fiction".

Iraq will play out in its own, special and tortured way.

I don't know enough about the military details of Dien Bien Phu to comment, except to say I don't see the U.S. forces getting themselves into a hole they can't get out of. We have too much mobility.

A Tet like offensive would require more coordination than the Iraqis are probably capable of due to internal divisions. Historias, correct me on this if I'm wrong, but wasn't Tet also the end of the Viet Cong as an effective force? Didn't the NVA essentially spend all othe Viet Cong resources on Tet, and the rest of the war was us against teh NVA? That is the way it has been explained to me.

The worst case scenario is the in-fighting in the Shia areas breaks out into open civil war and/or anti-coalition action. That would get ugly very quickly, as its a fairly big country and we could get spread very thin very quickly.