Did anyone just see Dean sort of apologize on CNN?

[wndycty]

He just addressed the issue. And he touched on it, they took it live. I cannot really repeat it because it was rambling. He obviously is feeling the heat.

[wndycty]

1. CNN has Corn and Lowry discussing the Confederat flag issue now. . .

Lowry is defending Dean. . .I never thought that would happen.

[Terwilliger]

4. you didn't see Washington Journal this morning

Repukes were falling all over themselves to defend Dean

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. Another warning sign

for the 'Dean is their pick for weakest opponent' conspiracy crowd.

[bearfartinthewoods]

their dreams come true....

November 03, 2003

A newly released Washington Post-ABC news poll conducted October 26-29 confirms that Kerry polls best among the leading Democrats and is in the strongest position to take on George W. Bush, far outpolling Howard Dean and Wesley Clark.


Kerry....Bush
44%......50% ... -6

Gephardt.Bush
42%......51% . - 9

Clark....Bush
40%......51%...- 11

Dean.....Bush
39%......54%...- 15

[AP]

43. To me, this is the most important poll.

I think it can still change, but I think if you need any explanation why Gephardt is even is this thing it's because of this poll. (I don't think Gep can keep his numbers up once people get to know the other candidates). I have no idea where Dean could possibly go with these numbers. He's the one who gets the most attention.

This poll is also why Kerry is always in my top three or four, although I have some reservations about him.

[SaveElmer]

66. These polls mean nothing

This far out. Most people aren't even paying attention yet. Once the nominee is chosen these polls will begin to have meaning.

[HFishbine]

71. Fact Check

You misreported the numbers from the ABC poll.

Kerry...Bush
43%.....52%... -9

Gephardt...Bush
42%.........51%... -9

Clark...Bush
40%.....52%... -12

Dean....Bush
39%.....53%... -14

Margin of error is +/- 4%

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm

The Marist College Poll, with a MoE of 3.5%, shows a closer among the top three.

Kerry...Bush
42%.....48%... -6

Gephardt...Bush
43%.........48%... -5

Clark...Bush
36%.....55%... -19

Dean....Bush
41%.....49%... -8

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm

[retyred]

90. Gee! Ya think?

"Dean is their pick for weakest opponent".....If Dean gets the nom, I predict 60/40 bush in 2004 w/out stealing the election. The 40 Republicans he hired for his steering commitee will see to that.IMHO


Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[caledesi]

150. I agree. * is out big time and not even close..

[Clark Can WIN]

110. Of course they were

They love him.

[_NorCal_D_]

105. Of course

Republicans love it when a candidate makes a major blunder.

[Loonman]

2. What a milquetoast

Either say what you want to say or not. Backing down later is a sign of waffling.


What else will Dean waffle on?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. Be fair and give him credit

for seeing his mistake and acknowledging hurt.

[wndycty]

5. I give him tons of credit for it. . .

. . .I hope his supporters will allow him to apologize.

[Hep]

165. He's the man

He does what he wants to do. He should express regret. But not for raising the issue or making the statement, just for clumsily clarifying it. His statement wasn't racially loaded in the first place.

Give the man a chance to respond without a million people breathing down his neck and he'll sort it all out for you.

[sangh0]

6. I credit Dean

with being too stubborn and arrogant to apologize for a foolishly worded statement.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. You mean he didn't apologize?

what did he say?

[sangh0]

13. There is no such thing as a

"sort of apology". It's like being "a little pregnant"

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[sangh0]

34. for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=646895

[Name removed]

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[Khephra]

26. And I credit the Iraq Resolution voters

with being too stubborn and arrogant to apologize for a foolish vote that has ended up resulting in the deaths of many innocent civilians and US military.

I'm still waiting on that apology.

Dean says something that offends people because it's badly worded, yet people are willing to forgive their canidates when their actions lead to death.

Excuse me while I don't grovel.

[sangh0]

31. LOL

Yeah, we all know that there wouldn't be an invasion of Iraq if it weren't for the Dems. Bush* is really scared of them Dems.

[Cha]

51. gepkerwards voted for the Iraqi War Resolution that

has lead to hundreds of our Soldiers dying and many more being maimed for life and thousands of Innocent Iraqis getting maimed and dead!

But I don't expect any perspective from people who support that.

[sangh0]

55. It's all Gephardt's fault

Give Bush* another break!! But I don't expect any perspective from people who support that Bush*-lite DLC-er, Howard Dean

[LizW]

104. gepkerwards!

Oh my god, I'm slow. I just got that.

LOL! I've been wondering all morning what that word meant.:7

[RetroLounge]

183. "gepkerwards!"

aka The Axis of Feeble...

[1songbird]

53. "Dean's not my guy but that is a darn good point."

One of the reasons I think republicans don't want Dean or Wesley Clark to win the nominationation is because of their stances on the war. Kerry, Edwards, and other war voters can't really go at Bush on the war since they voted for it without sounding crazy.

[mzmolly]

179. Rock on sister Khephra...

:yourock:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[sangh0]

35. For you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=646895

read it before ALL of your posts are deleted

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Kahuna]

14. Oh please! You gotta be kidding.

the only reason he backed down is to make it go away. He's had plenty of chances to back down since the weekend and REFUSED to do so. He got piled on last night and members of the CBC who were considering backing him called him on the carpet. That's the only reason he backed down.

[CWebster]

24. Do you have documentation about the CBC?

What did Jesse Jackson Jr say?

[Kahuna]

33. Is JJJ the CBC? I don't think so. Saw a snip on

Washington Journal this morning as I was awakening about members of the CBC coming down on him. Maybe you can rewatch Washington Journal on CSPAN's website and see it for yourself. An article was mentioned by I was just turning the TV on and missed in what paper. I'm sure that it will show up on DU before the end of the day.

[Cha]

56. Dean didn't back down and I'm glad he didn't

"apologize" to the slurpping demagogues at the debate last night.

[Kahuna]

65. Of course. You always encourage his bad behaviour.

:shrug:

[sangh0]

98. Encourage?

More like "emulate"

[magnolia]

197. I can't believe this reaction!!!!!

Bush makes a stupid remark every time he opens his mouth. Dean makes a stupid remark and we don't wait for the press to crucify him...no...we do it ourselves!!!!

Our candidates are human..fer Gods sake...they will make stupid remarks now and then. Give them a break!

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[sangh0]

37. For you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=646895

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[GOPFighter]

15. He said what needed to be said...

...he just said it poorly. All humans blunder now and then. Instead of apologiczing he should have restated what he meant ("we need to begin winning back the votes of southern white men") in a less divisive way.

[betio]

16. Agree he's a milquetoast- disagree that he has anything to apologize for

So he says he wants votes from rednecks as well as smart-alec liberals. So what? It behooves any candidate to try to get EVERY vote. That he said the words "confederate flag" without some kind of venom and contempt only means that he acknowledges that these people exist, they vote, and it's better if they vote for him.

[realFedUp]

67. and you saw this on CNN?

or just feel like flaming...

[mandyky]

8. Dean did NOT apologize for making the comment

He apologized to the people who were offended by what he said. Big difference.

[Kahuna]

18. You're right. It is a big difference. This guy reminds me..

more and more of bush every single day. He can never accept that he is capable of human error. He obfuscates and blames others. :puke:

[mandyky]

36. I disagree

but believe it if you want. The spirit behind his remark was not a mistake, inviting people into our big tent party is the only way to change things in this country.

[wndycty]

47. Mandy I agree with you. . .

. . .the spirit of his remark was NOT A MISTAKE!!!! But an overwhelming majority of voters don't get the spirit. There are many who were offending Dean can choose to tell them they they did not understand or he can apologize and move on. Sort of like the spirit of Clark's vote to give the president leverage in dealing with the UN. The spirit is not wrong but the message is controversial.

[Cha]

62. you use the bush card...cause you ain't got

nothin'

[Clark Can WIN]

121. Bush card? You want to slap an obfuscatory label on what you

cannot handle. Dean screwed the pooch on this one.

[cid]

176. Well at least Dean doesnt give speeches talking about

how wonderful Bush and admin are..:) Which is more than you can say for Wesley :) Just my two cents.

[sangh0]

21. Just like Lott did

for his Strom Thurmond remark.

"*IF* anyone was offended, I regret blah-blah-blah..."

as if there were a possibility that no one was offended

[Rose Siding]

29. You didn't see it, did you?

Don't let that stop your conclusions

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

38. for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=646895

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Khephra]

80. I just saw it and there was no IF

There will be a transcript soon and you'll see.

[sangh0]

134. The transcript is below, and supports me not you

Dean said "I deeply regret the pain i have may caused"

IOW, he didn't say "if", he said "may have". Six of one, half dozen of the other.

[Khephra]

149. Man, you can't read something for what it is, can you?

People like you are making me wonder if there's going to be any hope for anyone.

[sangh0]

198. You sure changed your tune

At forst, you said there was no "If". Now that you're obviously wrong about the facts, it's about me. It makes me wonder if there's going to any hope for anyone

[bigtree]

187. good 'nuf.

Best of luck to Mr, Dean

[AP]

50. My first audible chuckle of the day.

[realFedUp]

76. Thank you for the eyewitness report

for those of us who are just going on the
spurious original thread....separating the
wheat from the chaff has become clearer
lately

[Clark Can WIN]

118. " He apologized to the people who were offended by what he said."

But he couldn't bring himself to do it last night? What's changed?

Was he feeling some :nuke:

[Kahuna]

9. They will probable show the clip on Inside Politics...

I just set my dvd recorder on my pc to catch it while I'm out.

[TexasPatriot]

17. you do realize

that the press will ask him about this every time he's interviewed for the next 6 months. It'll be in the first 3 questions for a month... then it'll slowly drift down. It absolutely doesn't matter what he says at this point, and no - the press wont read any of his previous answers, apology or no. The other candidates wont have to say a thing - the echo-chamber that is our 4th estate cant help themselves

[Kahuna]

22. No they won't. The GOP controlled media will give him...

a complete pass as they have on his previous faux pas.' Watch. They want Dean to prevail and face bush in the general elections.

[Loonman]

19. Oh puh-leeze

He had three chances last night to clarify his statement, and Sharpton made him look like a horse's ass every time.

Sharpton!

I have more respect for Sharpton, now.

[w4rma]

120. Dean & Sharpton hand in hand after the debates

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

Howard Dean campaigns in Tallahassee

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Dean, making his first campaign foray into North Florida, spoke at a rally in Jacksonville then addressed more than 500 people at a luncheon of the Capital Tiger Bay Club.
…
Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[bleedingheart]

20. He apologized to african americans and white southerners

who may have been offended by his remarks. He said that it was a clumsy choice of words to use.

It was a small apology but he also touched on the fact that there are racial issues in this country that we must address... then the newscast stopped...

[CWebster]

23. Until I see a poster who hasn't got an obvious agenda

attest to this, I will take it from whense it comes.

[Terwilliger]

30. whense your judgement?

did you see Dean on CNN?

[CWebster]

52. No I didn't

but I am not going to take the obvious offender's version of events as a reliable measure.
;-)

[Terwilliger]

54. I hope he didn't waffle

there's been enough pandering

[mandyky]

74. He didn't waffle, not to worry

He apologized if the comment caused pain or offense, but said that we need to talk about the division in this country by race and other means.

[sandnsea]

58. Meaning what?

The poster just entirely made it up?

Dean said he regretted hurting people. Mixed in with some relatively decent comments about having a conversation about racism. If he would actually HAVE conversations about racism, I could take his Confederate Flag comments in the way people say he attends them.

[foo_bar]

59. I'm still agnostic on the candidates

In one sense, it's admirable that he speaks his mind without focus-tested platitudes like you'd hear from Edwards or Lieberman. In another sense, his insulation from American culture is a little frightening when he says things like "It takes a white leader to show my people that racism is wrong" to the NAACP. I realize all politicians are removed from the vox populi (a la Kerry refusing Cheez-Wiz on a philly cheesesteak), but Dean comes across as impulsive and spoiled in his unscripted appearances, not unlike his smirky nemesis.

[AP]

78. How do you know this wasn't focus group tested?

Dean doesn't get much support from black voters. He has a lot to gain by making black voters think the Democratic party doesn't care about them.

He started this when he said none of the other candidates and no democrat other than Bill Clinton talks bluntly about race to white audiences. (Which is a variation of the Eddie Murphy bus skit on SNL -- you know what the Democrats talk about when you're not around? They don't talk about you.)

This confederate flag thing is very similar.

Then you throw into the mix the fact that his story about understanding race is about how he fought anti-male gender discrimination in his office, and then he answered last night's question, "what will you say to African Americans?" by telling a black man what he'd say to poor white people.

Dean told the Cato Institute he was socially laissez faire. I think he's laissez faire on race. I wouldn't be surprised if all of this stuff is focus group tested smoke signals he's sending out to the internet libertarian/democrats, who are largely white, and not so liberal or race, and who make up his core demographic.

[foo_bar]

156. of course it's test marketed

but the awkward delivery is uniquely Dean's. Most candidates rehearse their one-liners (even Sharpton), but Dean seems to have a playbook of unformed incantations that he invokes in no particular order.

I think he's trying to compensate for the internet constituency, not preach to the choir; it was supposed to be a Sister Souljah moment (like his weird NAACP speech), but instead he telegraphed his discomfort with black folk and southrons alike.

[Catholic Sensation]

25. This is what I meant in an earlier post

The guy didn't say "I support the confederate flag" and some whiney babies are reacting like he said "I'm a grand dragon master from the KKK." I'm glad he's not apologizing, because all he said was he's trying to get the southern vote, that's it. I am a Kerry supporter, but I credit Dean for not backing down to the "whiney left" who get offended by anything.

[Kahuna]

41. No he didn't. But when a candidate says, I want to be the...

candidate of xyz... it's inferred that he is taking up their cause and position. It's just a matter of the way it's worded. He worded it poorly and it would have been simple enough to reword it and make it clearer.

[LoZoccolo]

129. Yeah but people can think about it a little...

...especially if something he said seems out of character. Plus they can find out what he said after that about the Confederate flag guys being side-by-side with blacks fighting for health care, plus his statement on his web site, plus the statement by Jesse Jackson Jr., plus how he called the Confederate flag a "loathsome symbol", yadda yadda yadda. If someone's going to put in the effort to throw a fit about this, I think they can put in the effort to understand it. But that doesn't get people to switch votes, so it doesn't happen.

The truth is this whole thing was deliberately bent out of shape, and distorting the discussion about a serious issue for temporary political gain is an affront to everyone affected by it. Oh, and it also makes people less likely to talk about race when they know there's a bunch of opportunists waiting to bend their words out of shape.

Oh, by the way, if you want to talk about inference: when someone criticizes someone who wants to challenge racist neo-confederates to drop their racist views, it infers that they want the neo-confederates to keep being racist. The "War Vote Four" and Sharpton should apologize to all people victimized by this racism, because they've inferred that they want it to continue. Sharpton, being the most vocal critic, wants the bigotry to go on the most.

:eyes:

[TLM]

161. Oh bullshit...you Clarkies are so shameless...

"candidate of xyz... it's inferred that he is taking up their cause and position. "


What you infer means absolutly nothing because of your clear and unmitigated bias to attack anything Dean says. No spin is too dishonest or too cheap for you people to try and use.

You have to infer things, because the actual quotes NEVER back up your bullshit.

[Julien Sorel]

180. Before you accuse someone of dishonesty,

you should remember CISC, and your repeated bullshit attacks, claiming it was a company like Carlyle, and claiming Clark worked as a lobbyist for Henry Kissinger. That's dishonesty.

[CWebster]

46. It isn't the Left who is offended

They understand Dean's point.

It started with Sharpton's pride being wounded because of Jesse Jackson Jr's endorsement of Dean. Sharpton not only suggested that the upstanding and widely respected Jackson was a "tom" but he made it his business to attack Dean out of resent. Cause and effect--the timing was undeniable.

The other candidates dug up something they could twist to use for ammo and they all piled on. They would rather divide the party than have Dean win the Afro-American vote, because once Dean starts to line up the black leaders---Sharpton, Edwards, Kerry are finished.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catholic Sensation]

77. So if he wants to get the vote for people who have the confederate flag

on their pickups, you're offended? He's trying to win, and he wants to get the vote from people who are traditionally republican. Jesus Christ, the man is basically saying "I won't appeal only to the base of the democrats, I'll try to get the other side to see the light as well" and there's this reaction like he's advocating a renewal of Jim Crowe.

[Terwilliger]

93. you didn't answer my question

would we like Nazi's in the party, too? Klansmen? What other hate group do we appeal to?

[Catholic Sensation]

101. I didn't know whites with confederate flags

constituted a hate group. The majority of supposed "racists" are ignorant, not because they naturally hate what's different, it's because they're constantly fed lies about those who are different. People like Limbaugh and Hannity preaching that affirmative action is in fact reverse racism against whites. I will make the "audacious" claim that if someone were to educate these people to how it actually is, not what the right likes to claim, they wouldn't be racist at all. Dean's comment strikes me as saying "i'm going to try to get the people who are misinformed and try to enlighten them." Comparing southerners who still believe in the confederacy to Nazis was a mature touch though.

[Clark Can WIN]

146. OMG so your stance is

" The majority of supposed "racists" are ignorant, not because they naturally hate what's different, it's because they're constantly fed lies about those who are different. People like Limbaugh and Hannity preaching that affirmative action is in fact reverse racism against whites."

THEY CANT HELP IT CUZ THEY"RE STUPID?????????????

Well that will bring 'em right in won't it? Holy shit. ! ?!?!????

Your mindreading abilities where the intentions of Howard Dean, a person I presume you are not intimate with is amazing. Your condecending additude towards the white populace of the American south is a mature touch though.

[TLM]

162. So you think racism is the product of reasoned informed evaluation?

and not ignroance?

Dean was very clear on this...

"I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I'm the only person here that signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same rights {as everyone else}.

"What I discovered is that the fear of people who opposed that bill, the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance. We have to reach out to every American. We don't have to embrace the confederate flag and I never suggested we do. We have to reach out to all disenfranchised people. Robert Kennedy brought people together. Jesse Jackson did it. We're going to bring people together in this country. I understand the confederate flag is a loathesome symbol, just as I understood the anti-gay slurs I had to put up with after I signed that bill were loathesome. If we don't reach out to every American we can't win. I've had enough of campaigns based on fear, I want a campaign based on hope." -- Howard Dean, Rock the Vote Forum, Boston, 11/4/03

[Terwilliger]

201. strikes you as

you still didn't answer the orginal question

If I thought that the flag represented Southern culture and history, I wouldn't have such strong feelings about it.

[LoZoccolo]

133. Yup.

I want the Nazis and the KKK to put down their swastikas and robes, and join the Democratic party.

Why do you want them not to?

[LoZoccolo]

136. Oh, and I want them to give up being racist too.

See what kind of junk I have to do to cover my ass? I'm sure you didn't actually think I was advocating them keeping their racist views. But someone might have jumped on this and said I was.

[Terwilliger]

202. As Padraig would like to say...

"and we will all come together and sing 'kumbaya'"

Give me a break.

[LoZoccolo]

206. And you'd suggest what then?

Putting them all in concentration camps?

Letting their kids get sick without health care?

What?

The worst you've said, then, about Dean's remarks is that they outline an ineffective plan. I think the challenge to racism that Dean puts forth to neo-confederates is a realistic one. Some people think that racism in this country is really just an invention, a way of dividing the working class for the gain of the people who employ them - even though I think it's probably more complex by now I'd agree at least partially with that.

[Terwilliger]

208. is that the thread of desperation or something?

I said nothing about what should be done about them...I said we shouldn't court them. We need the people who aren't racists. Maybe it's time the god damned party fought for them.

[mzmolly]

185. Them votes are going to Bush, unless of course this opportunistic

effort on the part of Al Sharpton and the gang hand him another election.

[Terwilliger]

203. I see

make sure they vote Dem on some issue that simply gives you their vote...nevermind that they'll go on being racists

[Loonman]

45. My oh my what dirty mouths

On the hard-corps Deanies.

[quinnox]

57. Smart move

I give Dean credit, I said this incident might cause his candidacy to take a knockout blow if he didn't do something like this.

But at least he isn't as boneheaded as I thought he was.

[Julien Sorel]

60. Sharpton 1. Dean 0, JJJ 1/2.

Sharpton played every corner of this like a pool shark. After Sharpton's performance last night, the CBC had no choice but to act. But still, all people will say is 'Tawana Brawley.' What a sad waste of a valuable resource.

Here's to Al: :toast:

[jsw_81]

81. Al Sharpton is a fucking joke

Every time he opens his mouth we lose thousands of potential Democratic voters. He shouldn't even be included in the debates.

[Julien Sorel]

102. What does that say about Dean? Sharpton just schooled him.

[CWebster]

107. Jesse Jackson jr

anytime you are ready to address that disconnect...

[Julien Sorel]

178. What disconnect?

And what exactly does Jesse Jackson Jr. have to do with the one guy calling Sharpton a joke the day after Sharpton gave Dean a lesson in manners?

[CWebster]

190. Sharpton had to bark at Dean

because he was angry that Jackson supported Dean, a white candidate over himself. Sure doesn't look good for Sharpton in the black community. Sharpton lashed out in an infantile effort to save face.

Jackson saw no reason to give Dean a "lesson in manners" and the scandalous phrase was nothing new in the Dean stump speech. Notice Sharpton didn't go after Clark on Vieques even though it was so important to Sharpton he did prison time - but Clark didn't get Jackson's endorsement.

For the rest of the candidates this was just a replay of what they tried to pull with Dean's positions on Israel and labor. To tell the truth, they exploited Sharpton's tantrum and the ensuing firestorm to target Dean....again.

[Julien Sorel]

192. Right.

Sharpton manufactured this thing wholecloth. That's why Dean went on TV and apologized. That's why the CBC sided with Sharpton. Sharpton is so ashamed at this point, he's probably giggling his ass off.

By the way, if you are going to sit there and pretend that Sharpton didn't absolutely destroy Dean last night, you should think long and hard about about the condition of your scruples. I don't think there's a person on earth who saw that and didn't see what went on. The only person you're fooling here is yourself.

[Hep]

167. Says nothing about Dean

Says everything about sharpton: He should write for SNL.

[last1standing]

79. This has to be the most sickening division I've ever seen on this board!

There are so many "progressives" here attacking a good candidate because he made an honest statement that was in keeping with a true progressive agenda. The knives are out and stabbing wildly in all directions in a perverse frenzy of bloodlust.

I've read Dean's "flag" remarks and agree with them completely. If someone here does not then I would challenge their progressive credentials. I've seen post after post from these people in which they purposely try to confuse the issue and ignore the facts. I've stayed out of this discussion hoping it would die down, but it appears there are too many primary partisans here to let that happen. I wish these people would understand that they are not just stabbing Dean, they are slicing their own candidates as well.

There is not a single Democratic candidate that I would not have been proud to support before this issue arose, but now my field has been severely limited. I will not support any Democrat who has used this fallacious issue to cloud the voter's judgement. That means Kerry, Edwards, Sharpton, and Lieberman are all out. If others attack or have attacked Dean on this issue I will not vote for them either. You see, I've had enough of the slime that repubs have thrown at us all these years and I will not support Democrats use of it, either.

These self serving candidates have probably cost us the election with this "scandal" as their purposeful twisting of a good idea has alienated black and southern voters who would normally agree with Dean's statement. Are the supporters of this style of pyhrric tactics so naive as to think the Democratic party can win with only the coasts? Maybe so. Maybe that is why we lost in 2002.

It's time to ask whether we want to vote for the next President of the United States of America in unity and good will, or is it so important that our prospective candidate gets the nod that we are willing to sacrifice our country to repubs for four more years.

Think about it.

[Nashyra]

82. Just saw the clip of Dean on CNN about the flag flap

I am a Clark supporter but I agreed with the statement he made. He's right that it was a clumsy start to a very sensitive issue but so necessary. I say stop beating a dead horse. Dean is a good guy, they should acknowledge it is a sensitive issue and address the solution.

[deutsey]

87. Thanks

:thumbsup:

[last1standing]

108. Thanks from me, too!

It's a shame that so many of the responses to my post prove exactly what I was saying. I wish we could unite, but it seems there are other agendas at work.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

84. So how is Dean not also a self serving candidate?

He is, after all, the one who called other candidates Bush-Lite and cockroaches. I don't see where Dean is setting any standard for the model candidate.

[CWebster]

88. And they have demonstrated that they are.

[Khephra]

155. Totally agreed here

Funny how some people can forgive a vote for an unjust, pre-emptive war, but then they get out of sorts when someone phrases something in an less-than-wise way.

Shrug off the deaths your candidates helped cause and attack Dean for one OLD comment that was applauded by the DNC and other Democratic groups in the past.

I know I'll be sleeping sound tonight. At least there's no blood on MY candidate's hands.

[TLM]

164. Hammer... nail... head. Spot on web.

[last1standing]

96. You just can't stop trying to hurt Dean, can you?

Even if it means hurting millions of other people, yourself included. I expect some attacking from all sides in a contest, but there are other candidates who have taken this too far and are purposely trying to label Dean as a racist. But then you know that. You just seem to want to drag him down at all costs.

If I'm wrong please accept my apology, but it was a very harshly worded response.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

116. If Dean loses to Bush then we will all be hurt

But IMO Dean is not the strongest candidate so he shouldn't be the one to face Bush anyway. And Dean only hurts himself by saying such insensitive things. I never called Dean a racist, just not very smart.

[last1standing]

139. If Kerry or Clark or Edwards loses we will all be hurt.

What's your point?

[Khephra]

112. How are the Pro-War candidates not self-serving either?

Gotta be strong on defense! Gotta get this out of the way for campaign 2002!

BAH!

[DrFunkenstein]

119. Kerry Wanted To Keep Iraq On The Table

I'm sorry, but it was Gep and Lieb in the Rose Garden, not Kerry.

"When a questioner said Kerry implied that Gephardt had compromised too easily with the White House, Gephardt replied that the president had made it clear he would not accept a "two-step" process that required him to come back to Congress for authorization of force."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0221-03.htm

He thought it was bullsh*t that they were being rushed into a decision, especially after Gep and Lieb undercut Biden-Lugar (which is why even Daschle wasn't at the Rose Garden).

[deutsey]

85. Dean's original comments from February 21, 2003

When no one said nary a word of objection at the time (the "confederate flag" remark is at the bottom):

Excerpt from
Gov. Howard Dean's speech to the Democratic National Committee
February 21, 2003, Washington, D.C.
. . .
Let me tell you something else I'm going to do. One of the things I thought
was terrific about Bill Clinton was that when he became President in 1992, he
said that his Cabinet would look like the rest of America -- and he did it. He
did it.

I want all of our institutions of higher learning, - our law schools, our
medical schools, our best universities - to look like the rest of America. I
thought that one of the most despicable moments of this President's
Administration
was three weeks ago when, on national prime time television, he used the word
"quotas" seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas,
has never had quotas, and "quota" is a race-loaded word designed to appeal to
people's fears of losing their jobs.

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The
Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm
going
to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive
pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting
with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids
need better schools too.

[Catholic Sensation]

91. OH MY GOD

WHAT A HORRIBLE RACIST PIG! He wants to enlighten those who have been misled by the republicans!!! Good post btw. :)

[Catholic Sensation]

92. wtf...

I have no idea how I double posted...

[TLM]

Like I said over and over he's been using that same line for 10 months...

And nobody had any problems with it... until now, now that Dean is leaving them all in his dust.

[Julien Sorel]

89. People have repeatedly stated that

the content of Dean's remarks wasn't the problem; the way he presented it was. I was personally offended, but what really got my goat, and still does, was his stubborn refusal to admit error and move on. It's a character flaw that is dangerous, and will lead to problems down the road. You are assuming this is a partisan candidate issue, but it isn't -- it's a Confederate flag issue for me, that mushroomed into a Dean is an arrogant ass issue.

I agree with the point he was trying to make. I disagree with the way he made it. I disagree with his stubbornness, and the fact that he had to be forced into correcting himself by CBC pressure -- it shows bad judgment, and suggests, yet again, that the only thing that motivates Dean is political reality. The way the issue itself unfolded also suggests that, as had he really been thinking about the big picture and Democratic values, and not been searching for the most potent symbol he could think of, this never would have happened, as he would have picked a different way of making his point.

Dean had plenty of chances to diffuse this situation, and he refused them all until Sharpton forced him to do something. That's not a good thing to me -- that a man with Sharpton's reputation had to become Dean's conscience. If Dean wins the nomination, this will come back and haunt him, and it's his fault, not the fault of people who were sticking up for thier own interests, like Sharpton was. Dean is a flawed candidate like the rest of them, but he has some flaws that naturally lead to these sorts of things, and it's best that they be laid out now, before the party picks its standard bearer, than later, when one of his gaffes would be instantly fatal, and there would be no CBC to apply gentle pressure in an attempt to make the man see reason.

[CWebster]

95. Billy your agenda is leaking out again.

[Julien Sorel]

97. Your inability to make an argument is leaking out again.

Heck, did I say leak? Poooooooooooooouring out. ;-)

[CWebster]

100. only hundreds of times, Billy

that isn't what interests you.

[TLM]

168. LOL you have to love how one clark bot calls dean a flip flopper......

then another shows up to encourage Dean to back off his statement.


Tell me Billy, can you quote Dean's words fully, and point out EXACTLY what offended you?

"I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I'm the only person here that signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same rights .

"What I discovered is that the fear of people who opposed that bill, the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance. We have to reach out to every American. We don't have to embrace the confederate flag and I never suggested we do. We have to reach out to all disenfranchised people. Robert Kennedy brought people together. Jesse Jackson did it. We're going to bring people together in this country. I understand the confederate flag is a loathesome symbol, just as I understood the anti-gay slurs I had to put up with after I signed that bill were loathesome. If we don't reach out to every American we can't win. I've had enough of campaigns based on fear, I want a campaign based on hope." -- Howard Dean, Rock the Vote Forum, Boston, 11/4/03

[mzmolly]

184. That is 'editorial' material Last1....

:thumbsup:

*sigh*

[last1standing]

189. I'm not sure if that's a slap or a compliment.

But I'll take it as a compliment until otherwise directed. :)

[mzmolly]

193. Compliment, unless you like being slapped

;)

Here you go! :spank: :yourock:

[last1standing]

196. Thanks!

I needed that! ;-)

[edzontar]

83. Arguments like this play into the Pukes; hands....

My god, just look at this landscape of deleted flame-exchanges!!!

I personally feel that the establishment, DLC, pro-war and more or less pro-Bush wing of the party is ganging up to crucify Dean--not because they fear he will lose, but because they fear he will WIN.

I get the distinct impression that Dean can't really be "bought", and that is probably what REALLY scares the corporate factions on both "sides" of the aisle.

[CWebster]

86. Considering on how they pounded Dean

for his "evenhanded" view of the Middle East...they are trying to drive wedges in everywhere.

The author of #79 is correct in his\her assessment.

[sangh0]

94. Bad assumption

all of the deleted posts came from one DUer. A Dean supporter

[last1standing]

103. OH NO! Not a big bad Dean Supporter?!

Can't you think of the country instead of politics?

[Catholic Sensation]

106. Jeez

That's a lot of posts from one guy...

[CWebster]

99. Looks like the usual

Someone baited by the usual. The usual probably sounds the alarm. ;-)

[DrFunkenstein]

113. The EStablishment, DLC, Pro--War And More Or More or Less Pro-Bush Wing

That's why we love Dean supporters so much. They so accurately depict our positions. Who do you think you are appealing to besides other Dean supporters? Don't you realize that months of this horsesh*t has completely alienated the rest of us? Dean was my #2 for a long, long time. After awhile, I just said screw it, I don't want no part of this.

[Julien Sorel]

186. You left out 'corporate whore'

'Republican plant.'

[Clark Can WIN]

109. Then why couldn't he apologize to the young man

who asked him to last night.......... Does he now suddenly realize he was WRONG or is it just political waffles? Hmmmmmmmm?

Where's my fork?

[DrFunkenstein]

114. The Kid Asked Him What He Would Do For Blacks In America

And Dean proceeded to say what he would do for poor whites in America. I'm not making this up. It's called a tin ear.

[Khephra]

115. Number of times people have said "fork" in reference to Dean?

40872087 times, last I counted.

I seem to remember Clark being tounge-tied on his registration and statements on the war.

:crazy:

[wndycty]

117. And he got beat up for it. . .

. . .so whats the problem with beating Dean up on this? Or are the rules different for Howard Dean?

[DrFunkenstein]

122. Exactly - That's What Gets My Goat

They can dish it out, but they can't take it. It's fair game to call Kerry "Bushlite" for 8 months, but people can't even mention that Dean supported the same cuts in '95 (not '97) that Newt did (which is not even comparing him). Not to mention Dean's big ole flashlight for the Congressional roaches...

Hypocrisy, thy name is Dean.

[wndycty]

123. Its not Dean. . .

. . .its his supporters on DU. Most Dean supporters I meet offline are very reasonable.

[DrFunkenstein]

132. I'm Sorry, But It Was Dean

I'm sure that Dean supporters are lovely in person, but it was, in fact, Dean calling Kerry "Bushlite" and Dean saying that no one deserved to be called "Newtlite" (which they weren't doing - probably a guilty conscience). I think that's hypocritical.

I also think it was shady to say what a wonderful man Clark is before he announces, then call him a dastardly Republican the day after.

[last1standing]

124. Just keep up the walls that divide us.

That should do the trick for the repubs.

The Clark registration issue was valid as he was not at Democrat at the time of his announcement. I think he is a good progressive who would make a fine President, but it was a mistake to not register long ago knowing his ambitions. It is now resolved.

What is happening to Dean is a perversion of his statement to slander him and divide our country. Is that what you want?

[wndycty]

128. So its ok for Dean to have called Clark a Republican?

:kick:

[last1standing]

138. Yes, and it's okay to call Dean Repub-lite or bring up past votes.

It's not okay to twist another candidate's words to the point of implying racism and endanger the entire progressive movement.

Does that not make sense to you?

[sangh0]

141. No, that makes no sense

because no one is calling Dean a racist. No one is even implying that.

[last1standing]

145. That is exactly what has been implied.

Let's not make the misjudgement of thinking either of us are idiots, okay?

The race card is being played by Democrats to the destruction of us all.

[sangh0]

158. You still make no sense

No one has even implied that the statement is racist, which explains why you can't quote one statement calling Dean a racist.

[last1standing]

170. Oh No! I can't quote an implication!

Once again you seem more intent on creating pain for others than on making things better.

We both know what was implied and I won't play your little game of Gimmie a Quote or Your Wrong! If this wasn't about racism, then what was it about? Are you saying that black people and southern white men are offended by clumsiness? Maybe they just don't like the sound of the words Dean said.

It's sad to see a good forum like this house so much hatred.

[sangh0]

194. No, you can NOT QUOTE an implication

Implications aren't spoken, so I don't see how you could quote one.

If this wasn't about racism, then what was it about?

Dean politically tone-deaf statement about going after the confederate flag vote.


Can't you admit that it was a politically "clumsy" statement? Dean did.

[last1standing]

205. You're still spinning and twisting.

If this was about a clumsy statement, then you and so many others are going way overboard in your condemnation. And please don't try to insult my intelligence by putting me on the defensive over whether it was a clumsy statement. I won't play that game either.

But at least you've admitted you're previous comment asking for a quote was wrong.

[Clark Can WIN]

153. Endanger the ENTIRE progressive movement???

going a little overbord aren't we? Since when the hell does Dean have a lock on the entire progressive movement?

Sheesh. Let's get over ourselves already.

And Dean was either ignorant or a liar when he said that comment about Clark (25 days) take your pick.

[last1standing]

157. Read post #79.

Can't you understand that this is alienating the very people we need voting for us?

[DrFunkenstein]

137. Dean Said He Was A Republican When He Knew That Wasn't True

"For starters, Wes Clark has declared time and again that he was a "non-partisan" during his military career. He says that he voted for Clinton and Gore. Howard Dean knows that Wesley Clark was never a registered, partisan Republican. Bob Schieffer even pointed it out to him last Sunday. But why let these facts get in the way of a good smear?"

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=794

[last1standing]

148. At least your not quoting a highly partisan source.

I stick to my original statement. Care to read it this time?

[DrFunkenstein]

171. Yeah, Our Party

Try addressing the point, not the pointer. When the poet points to the moon, the fool looks at his finger.

[last1standing]

181. Why do you try to change the issue so much?

If you don't like Dean then point to his policies you disagree with. Call him a repub. Tell us how you hate his hair. Don't imply racism and try to destroy his career. Don't twist every discussion until it's unrecognizable. Don't hurt the very policies you claim to believe in just to kill one of our messengers.

Is that too much to ask?

[Khephra]

160. It depends on what he's being beat up over

Making a bad choice of words? On that even I've said they were unwise.

On him being a racist? No, because that's not what he is.

On making an apology to the people that he offended? Well, that's the funny thing. The same Anti-Dean people who are now beating up Dean for waffling or backing down are some of the same people that were calling for an apology or acting outraged that he didn't do it earlier.

Going after any candidate is fine, as long as you're going after them for the things they ACTUALLY did instead of some imagined slight or creative reading of his words.

[TLM]

169. Did you see the quotes from the young man after the debate?

He was fine with Dean's answers and not offended.

Next?

[RetroLounge]

191. But the Clarkies are OFFENDED!

OFFENDED I tell you. Well... Who The F*ck Cares.

Clark is a fine candidate, and he may even win.

But mention Dean and the lowest common denominator shows up, led by the same 4 or 5 Clarkies.

It's pathetic, really. If the General was here, my guess is he'd tell you to shut the F*ck up, he can handle himself and doesn't need your type of support. Just my guess...

[deutsey]

111. This is "rambling"?

FULL TRANSCIPT OF CABLE NEWS COVERAGE
Governor Howard Dean, M.D.
Cooper Union – NYC
November 5, 2003

We're at a space today that's rich in our nation’s history, a place where citizens have gathered for more than a century to debate the great issues of the day. From this platform and from this very podium, Abraham Lincoln spoke
nearly 150 years ago as a presidential candidate and when Lincoln came here, he did not shy away from talking about the greatest threat that our republic faced at that time which is the terrible institution of human slavery.

I will not shy away today either. The issue of the confederate flag has become an issue in this presidential race. Let me make this clear. I believe that we have one flag in this country, the flag of the United States of America.
I believe that the flag of the confederate states of America is a painful symbol and reminder of racial injustice and slavery which Lincoln denounced from here over 150 years ago. And I do not condone the use of the flag of
the confederate states of America. I do believe that this country needs to engage in a serious discussion about race, and that everyone must participate in that discussion. I started this discussion in a clumsy way.

This discussion will be painful, and I regret the pain that I may have caused either to African-American or southern white voters in the beginning of this discussion. But we need to have this discussion in an honest open way.

We cannot leave any one person behind in this discussion, no matter what their color, no matter where they live. I understand Senator Edwards' concern last night that he not have people from the North to tell people from the South how to run their states. But we all need to understand that we are in this together. And that this will be a difficult and painful discussion, that feelings will be hurt, and what we must do is that people of good will must stay at the table.

If we are ever to vanquish the racism left over from 400 hundred years of slavery and Jim Crow, 40 or 50 years
ago, the civil rights movement beginning to see relief from that, we can't think it is over, we must have the dialogue Bill Clinton promised us, we must continue that dialogue, and we must all be at the table, so I say, to
those many of the people in the African American community have supported what i have said in the past few days, because they understand, some of have not, to those, I deeply regret the pain i have may caused. many of our white
supporters have understood, but to those who do not, i regret the pain that I have caused. I will tell you, there is no easy way to do this. There will be pain as we discuss it, we must face it together. Hand in hand, as Dr.
King and Abraham Lincoln asked us to do.

[CWebster]

125. This is the most important post

and all the different players are up there jockeying for position on the thread and ignoring the only adult speaking in the room.

Thanks for posting this. My high regard for Dean and his courage continues.

To bad the team of candidates that ganged up to take advatage of the attack can't make a genuine and honorable stand in their own behalf.

Sharpton will always carry Tawanna Brawley and the others will always carry the burden of their vote to empower Bush to lead this country on a downbound spiral.

[DrFunkenstein]

126. Dean Is Certainly In The Same League As Lincoln And King

He even asked for two black roommates! And just like many others during the Civil Rights movement, Dean stayed at home and partied like it was 1999.

[sangh0]

130. How about that "I deeply regret the pain i have may caused"

"may have"??? Isn't that what Lott said when he "apologized" for the pain he "may have" caused with his Strom statement?

[CWebster]

131. While kerry threw someone else's medals over the wall

Keep it up Funkenstein.

All's ya got is dirt.

[DrFunkenstein]

143. The Truth About Kerry's Medals

CWebster, you officially know about this now, so I don't want to see you pretending you didn't.

"From Kerry's perspective, of course, it was all pretty complicated and he never really understood what the brouhaha was all about. The medals were, after all, a highly personal matter. He'd ultimately decided to throw his also-important ribbons, and the medals he tossed were on behalf of some disabled vets.

He never claimed to have thrown his own medals, and certainly the more important matter was that he had enlisted and fought bravely in the war, and had then come back to protest the atrocities he had participated in.

And, it should be noted, in the "60 Minutes" interview with Kerry, which ran a mere four weeks after the 1971 demonstration on the Mall, Kerry refers to the "the emotion in the faces of those men who threw their medals back ... if you watch their faces, there was agony in them as they threw those things back," and so on, continuously referring to the medal-throwers in the third person, never including himself.

A couple pages after the photo of Sachs and others throwing their medals back are two different close-ups of the piles the vets left in their wake. "Look at that," Kerry says. "You see? A big deal was made about whether I threw back my medals or ribbons or whatever, but look. People threw everything. Ribbons. Discharge papers. Photographs. Certificates ..."

Indeed, that's what the photos show. In one photo, a veteran is throwing his cane. Kerry swallows. Slightly shakes his head.

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/08/10/kerry/index2.html

[CWebster]

147. You mean the story where he was doing it as a favor

for someone else but never let on that they were not his own until confronted?

That was then, Funkenstein and you know full well the words he uttered of the true nature of war in front of the Senate in 1971. Seems he has forgotten in seeking to position himself to pander to those voters who measure ability by military experience. Surely not the majority of his own constituents.

[last1standing]

154. This thread is what I'm talking about.

Let's alienate blacks, southern white men, and veterans. That should do the trick.

Kerry will not get my vote due to his campaign destruction of Dean, but he is not a bad human being. Every candidate does something that can be looked on as deceptive. In fact every person can be.

[CWebster]

166. Absolutely

Which is why I am not trolling to trash Kerry. It was just a reminder to Funkenstein that we can stoop to his level. But he doesn't recognize it for what it is until it is reversed.

Notice all the back-slapping for Sharpton now that he is in league to operate at this level--No indignant charges of Sharpton's constant "republican-lite" accusation, because it doesn't serve the purpose of anyone to attack Sharpton who isn't a threat, but they will ride Dean for it. Is there any question as to why?

[DrFunkenstein]

174. You Need A Stoop To Get To My Level

Sorry, Sharptonism. But I haven't slung names at Newt-Lite, I don't need a reminder of what levels Dean supporters are willing to go.

And Sharpton wasn't talking about Kerry, anyway.

[CWebster]

188. LOL...

Funkenstein...that is too sad.

[deutsey]

140. Actually, I think Dean taught or did work in inner city schools

while he was in college (along with the partying that seems to be so bothersome).

[DrFunkenstein]

144. You Mean The Floating Craps Game?

It doesn't seem like "taught" is the right word for it. Anyone know where that inner city was? Please don't tell me it was Montpelier.

Edited: Its "craps," not "crap" game. To think I practically lived in Atlantic City for awhile...

[deutsey]

152. You lost me, there

Ain't got no idea what you're talking about regarding the craps stuff (having never lived anywhere near Atlantic City, I suppose :evilgrin:)

I believe he did this work while a student at Yale...I saw it on a bio about him.

[TLM]

175. He also did his medical internship in an ER in the bronx...

patching up kids with gun shot wounds and overdoses... kinda knocks the legs right out from under the whole silver spoon bullshit attacks.

[sangh0]

127. Yes, rambling

It does little to address the issue that Dean's statement raised. All I see about that is "I started this discussion in a clumsy way."

The rest is just boilerplate generalities. "Jim Crow blah-blah...dialogue blah-blah...comunity blah-blah...."

Folowed with the milquetoast "I deeply regret the pain i have may caused"

"May have"?

[CWebster]

135. Anytime Kerry wants to talk to the families of all the

unnecessarily slain people on all sides in Iraq....

I won't hold my breath. He hasn't got the inner fortitude to do it.

[Khephra]

159. AMEN!

Forget about the Iraq war vote! It never happened, so stop saying that! Our candidates never waffled, never appologized, and never voted for Bush's agenda a year plus after he had already shown his colors.

Yeah, lets bash Dean some more while the deaths keep on rolling in Iraq.

Sigh...REALLY nice to know what some people here think is horrible and unforgivable, compared to an ethically criminal war vote.

[deutsey]

142. Give me "rambling", then, over "straining gnats"

:evilgrin:

[TLM]

177. There was nothing rambling about it...

which you prove by the fact you have to edit the quotes and spin what he said.

"Folowed with the milquetoast "I deeply regret the pain i have may caused"

"May have"?"


Yeah may have... most people who are not supporters of CLark or Kerry weren't offended at all.

But we all know that no matter what Dean had said, you'd attack it and act as if the sky is falling because that ALL you do.

[sangh0]

195. LOL

Do you really expect me to believe that you speak for everybody but Clark and Kerry supporters?

[last1standing]

199. Once again you have to spin and twist the statement.

Why don't you just say you don't like Dean and be done with it. It's an insult to everyone here to have to untwist the quotes you mangle.

[haymaker]

207. BOO!

Scared ya!

Keep up the good work!

[TLM]

173. Of all the garbage and shit posted in this thred by Clark Corps

this is the first full quote... and reading it, one sees why the bashers were afraid to quote it and opted instead to simply lie about it and post only their spin.


Once again the surefire way to stop the Dean bashers in their tracks... it to post full detailed quotes and facts which prove these liars are spining the truth to their own ends.

Thank you.

[Scott Lee]

151. He took nothing back from the meaning of his original comment

Nor should he. He only said he "regretted" if anyone was hurt by his remarks.

Hey, if you want milquetoast shifty positions and pandering to the republicans in the democratic party, look to Kerry or Gefart - not Dean.

[TLM]

182. Scott if Dean had come out and said he's sorry he offended people...

and he retracts what he said.... Shang0 would be here screaming just as loud that Dean is a waffeler.

That's all these Clark and Kerry supporters ever do, is attack anything and everything Dean says or does.


Dean did the right thing... he did not back off his statement because he was right to have said it, but he did note that talking about race issues will offend somepeople and he regrets that, but we have to have this discussion. We can't just make talking about race taboo.

But it seems the other folks up there either want to use race as a way to generate conflict like sharpton, or want to avoid race all togehter like Kerry.

[Hep]

163. Not Deleted Message

I think he did a great job.

He admitted to introducing the issue in a clumsy manner but said that this discussion needs to take place. I was happy to hear it. He apologized for any offense that anyone took, and got back on message.

[Merlin]

172. Good God! What happened here? Looks like a bomb hit this place!

I've never seen so many posts and names deleted in one thread. Must be a new record. Were they freepers?

On the subject at hand, this is such a joke it's not even funny.

Look, Dean said absolutely nothing at all wrong. In fact he was as accurate and incisive as can be.

The problem came about because there is "bad blood" (quite literally) between Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Evidently years ago Al accused Jesse of smearing some of MLK's blood on himself after the assassination evidently to impress the cameras. There was a bitter row over it. So AS fires at HD when JJ,Jr. endorses HD, and several other of the lesser 8 try to jump aboard what they lamely construe as a bandwagon.

Howard was right when he said it. He was right to express regrets to anyone who took offense. He is right not to apologize.

Go DEAN!

[Selwynn]

200. Undeleted Message

Wow - this thread wins the award for biggest bunch of lamer posters on one place.

Nice to see civility is alive and well! *snickers and giggles* :)

[Catherine Vincent]

204. Finally saw the quote from Dean.

Poor choice of words. He would like votes from everyone, including klan members. Of course, personally I wouldn't want votes from klan members but if enough of them vote with Dean and not Bush this time, that's more votes for Dean. Dean knows that Bush has a hold on those klan voters.