Environmentalists and hunters...

[Ilsa]

My husband and I were discussing over lunch how the Democratic party needs to unite with a strong central message for the Pres. election, and needs to bring back special interest groups which have a common cause. The one he considered to be the most probable is the outdoorsmen or hunters group and environmentalists.

My husband subscribes to several hunting and fishing magazines, and there is always some letter to the editor or editorial comment about fear of loss of rights, specifically of the right to own a firearm. My husband's opinion is that the greatest threat is not to their ability to have a hunting rifle, but their access to land with game due to overdevelopment by business interests. He wishes the hunters could see that it is the environmentalists (and vice versa), not the pro-business Republican Party, that can help preserve the land and the trees if only they would pool their political might. It is the fascists business developers that are after special treatment from the Republicans and willing to pay for it with campaign donations.

Comments? Is his thinking too far out of whack?

[NoMoreRedInk]

1. Hunters contribute far more money to conservation and environmentalism...

than any other group in the US. By crafting the message in the right way, your idea could go a long way in winning many converts.

[blm]

24. Here's a rundown from Sportsmen for Kerry on that very theme.

You can find more details at his site.

http://www.johnkerry.com/activists/sportsmen/

Working for Sensible Gun Safety

*Supports the Brady Bill & Mandatory Background Checks
*Will Work to Close the “Gun Show Loophole”
*Working Make Gun Locks Mandatory & Prevent Child Access to Guns
*Voted to End Unlicensed Sale of Guns on the Internet
*A Leader in Banning “Cop Killer Bullets” & Banning Large Capacity Clips

John Kerry Strongly Supports Sportsmen’s Rights to Hunt and Fish

*A Lifelong Hunter and Supports Sportsmen’s Rights

*Supports the Second Amendment & Will Defend Hunting Rights
*Supports Greater Land Conservation for Hunting and Fishing
Kerry Supports the 2nd Amendment & Will Keep Guns Out of the Hands of Kids & Criminals

*A Lifelong Hunter & Will Defend Hunting Rights
*Common Sense Gun Policies Include Background Checks on Criminals
*Strongly Supports the Second Amendment & Gun Owners Rights
*Worked With Law Enforcement Agencies to Ban Military Assault Weapons
*Will Work to Close the “Gun Show Loophole”

[HFishbine]

2. Sounds good!

I think your husband is on to something.

[Frangible]

3. I don't think it's fair to blame the developers...

I think it's because humans are breeding out of control and continuing to expand. It's not really partisan, imo.

"Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet..." -Agent Smith, The Matrix

Well, I don't really think that negatively about it, but the more of us there are, the less natural world there is.

Also, most hunters live in states and areas where the culture is primarily conservative. Although some do become liberal (like myself), most will remain what they are raised as.

[IrateCitizen]

7. I find it to be perfectly fair to blame them!

It's developers who are largely responsible for initiating "uncontrolled growth" rather than "smart" or "green" growth, simply because that is how they can make the biggest and quickest profit. Having seen them take over the planning board in my town and ram a new Target store down our throats for which their traffic studies showed that they don't have enough parking space :wtf: and will clog the local surrounding roads, I have absolutely NO sympathy for them. They care not a whit about sustaining communities or open space or quality of life. They care only about raping the land and maximizing their own profit.

[Frangible]

9. That may be so...

But we will only stop expanding when we stop breeding out of control.

[IrateCitizen]

21. In many US metro areas, land usage is increasing while population drops

Yes, that is correct. Land usage in many metro areas in increasing while population of the metro area either stagnates or drops. And in most instances where population IS increasing, the population increase lags far behind what the increase in new land use is.

The problem with land use in the US has nothing to do with "breeding out of control". It has to do with placing short-term profit over all else, along with poor planning. I see it ALL the time around where I live, in the NYC metro area.

[NoMoreRedInk]

19. The local planning boards are as culpable as developers....

because it is they who make greenfield development the easiest to accomplish. Infill development and brownfield development carry much more red tape, which eats the bottom line like cancer.

[IrateCitizen]

22. Oh, I don't disagree at all!

One of the biggest problems (at least it is in my town) is that developers or their representatives manage to take over the planning boards!

[NoMoreRedInk]

17. In the US, it's immigration -- not breeding....

Currently the US averages 2.07 births per woman (over their lifetime). Coincidently, that is the exact number for the population to sustain itself. Overall US population growth is coming from immigrants and improvements in healthcare that are lengthening lifespans.

Most developed countries will soon be facing population shortages (Italy, Japan) because their not breeding enough. Most global population growth is coming from undeveloped and developing countries.

[Frangible]

20. Yup, I had read this

But as a whole (childbirth + immigration), our population is still growing, thus we expand and make parking lots of forests.

[bryant69]

4. I think we also have to decide

whether we want Gun Control or Gun Elimination. Gun Control is little threat to hunters in reality, but it is the fear of us taking away all guns that causes them to be concerned.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[DBoon]

5. No this is right on

And I think the criticism of environmentalists for not seeing this and for opposing hunting and fishing is right on target.

And I have been a Sierra Club member for many years

[IrateCitizen]

6. As a Sierra Club activist, this is something I've believed for a long time

And you wouldn't believe how often I end up in arguments with other environmentalists who are adamant about not just instituting common-sense gun control measures, but outlawing the vast majority of firearms altogether. :eyes:

Having grown up in a rural area, hunting as soon as I was old enough to get a license, I can tell you that MANY sportsmen buy into the idea that Democrats are going to take their guns away. If this gulf could be breached (a lot of which has to do with actively neutralizing the propaganda spread by the NRA), this group could be SOLIDLY in our corner.

[Frangible]

8. It's more than that

A significant minority of democrats DO favor outright gun bans. Most don't, but it doesn't take "most" to scare the crap out of people.

[Kolesar]

10. An environmental activist I know spoke at sportsmen's meetings

He would deliver presentations about air and water pollution and how it affects wildlife. He would present development issues. He would advocate voting for the politicians who had the best records of protecting the ecosystem.

At the end of the meeting, the members would agree with him and say, "yes, you are right, the Democrats are much better at protecting wildlife and the environment.". Then they would say: "I am still going to vote for Reagan/Bush/Dole because that's the way I always vote".

Talk about a tough sell

[cally]

11. Much of the early environmental movement

occurred because hunters, those who fish, and environmentalists joined together. In the SF Bay, many marshes were saved because hunting clubs has bought the land. I agree with your husband, that this alliance is very important.

[Ilsa]

12. Thanks everyone, for the feedback.

Yeah, I think it works both ways. Too much demonization of each others' group. I wish they could meet and come to some concensus that they have more in common, and need to try and work to meet their objectives together. I've known pro-choice groups who have met with anti-choice groups to discuss their common ground. I don't think it helped alot, but it helped tone down the negativeness. These two groups might be able to work together to support common Dem candidates.

I also worried about "demonizing" developers, because you are right, they respond to demand from a growing population.

[Kolesar]

13. Developers are Demons

We don't need all of this sprawling development. It is just being driven by subsidized lumber production, subsidized highway development, and subsidized petroleum sources (it takes a $400 Billion dollar defense budget to keep that Persian crude flowing). The population is increasing, but not nearly at the rate of development of land. My metro area has doubled in size in 40 years, but the population has not grown!

Those developers are ruthless bastards who donate to politicians to get what they want. Quid pro quo.

[Redneck Socialist]

14. This hunter and environmentalist...

...thinks you husband is right on the money. I have said the samething many times. I know many hunters that vote republican simply because of the gun issue. Too many hunters perceive Democrats as anti-gun and to a lesser extent environmentalists as anti-hunting.

[JailBush]

18. Both Sides of the Coin

I grew up in a rural, redneck agricultural area where everyone hunted. I later studied wildlife biology and worked in Alaska.

It's true that hunters contribute millions of dollars to "the environment." However, keep in mind that this money isn't necessarily devoted to protecting ecosystems. It's often used to manage game species to the detriment of other species.

I'm not strongly anti-hunting, but I do think lots of hunters are jerks. Some of the wildlife refuge personnel I worked with in Alaska were total jokes. They couldn't answer a single ecological question about their own refuge ("What's the most abundant rodent?"), but they could tell you the cost of a duck hunting stamp.

These are the people who are increasingly given conrol of our national wonderlands. There was a gloomy atmosphere in Alaska during the Reagan years (remember WATT?), and I would guess it must be far worse now. What's the use of studying biology in college, if you'll only be treated with scorn, and the job you're seeking is given to a professional duck hunter?

I didn't mean for this post to sound quite so anti-hunter. I just wanted to add a little perspective. It's absolutely true that their biggest enemy is development, not hunters. That point was made abundantly clear for me in Florida.

Gun control is an issue I've never had strong feelings about. Frankly, I'd feel a little safer owning a gun if Bush got reSelected and morphed into a true dictator. (Make that dick tater for the "freedom fries" crowd.)

[javadu]

15. I Agree

Moreover, its not just hunters, but fisherman, and all kinds of sportsmen. I too have thought this for a long time. Democrats will be more protective of sportsmen's interests than republicans.

[Kolesar]

16. I think our time is better spent mobilizing the fuzzy animal lovers...

...than trying to "convert" the hunters. Environmentalists are swing voters. They often vote their pocketbooks, national security, etc, but if we can show them the purposely-hidden stories of the horrid things the Bush administration has done on clean air and clean water, they might just vote based on environmental issues.

[Hammie]

23. Environmentalists are no friends of hunters.

Most environmental organizations don't support hunting. At least developers only exclude hunters from land they own. Environmentalists want to exclude them from land the people own. I don't think you will attract very many hunters by being cozy with the environmental movement.

[DrGonzoLives]

25. They do?

Got a link to back up that statement? I have never heard of any legitimate environmental group wanting to completely ban hunters.

[pmbryant]

26. I've unaware of any such environmental groups as well

Unfortunately, many people confuse animal rights groups like PETA with actual environmental groups. At least that's the impression I get.

I, too, am unaware of any significant environmental groups that want to eliminate hunting.

--Peter

[slackmaster]

27. Here's what the Sierra Club's national site says about it

“Hunters and anglers have a long history of protecting and restoring fish, wildlife, and habitat... At the beginning of the 20th century there were about 500,000 white-tailed deer in the United States; today there are 27 million. Only 41,000 elk survived in 1907; now there are a million. In 1910 antelope were down to 5,000; today there are at least a million. A century ago wild turkeys were close to extinction; last spring there were 4.2 million.”

Source:
http://www.sierraclub.org/wildlands/hunting_fishing/index.asp