"I used to like what they said but they seem to be all for minorities now.

[loudnclear]

White man (presumably one of the guys with a confederate flag on his pick up) being interviewed by a meida person...saw it on my evening news.

Now I just have to say this. These people have been so brainwashed by Rush-speak that they can't even think for themselves. What minority has denied this man a raise, raised his taxes, sent his relative off to war,raised his gasoline prices, stolen from his retirement fund, fired him, charged him usry interest on pay-day loans, denied him a decent living wage? So they would rather be FOR the people who are for the wealthy and AGAINST the people who are looking out for the middle, low, and poor working people? WTF does this guy and people like him have in common with Bush except his skin color?

That's whay Rush and Hannity can laugh all the way to the bank about these ditto heads. Even Rush and Hannity don't believe half the stuff they spew...like Ann Coulter admited to Steven Brock. They are laughing at these poor ignorant folks all the way to the bank.

[MartinAmbroseForan]

1. I would take what he says at face value

I would not call him brainwashed, stupid, trailer trash, inbred or anything else derogatory. I would find a way to get him on my side.

But that's just me, you do what you want.

[HFishbine]

2. Read for comprehension

The writer did not call him stupid, trailer trash or inbred. Brainwashed, ignorant and poor are probably quite accurate.

[MartinAmbroseForan]

30. Like I said

You do what you want. Call 'em every name in the book and worse if you want to.

[finn]

4. An bhfuil nách tú dur?

right now most people find their situation in bad shape and by killing people and blowing them up. That make americans feel good about them selves. Some what as the same prinicpal as the roman gladiator game. Things suck so the ratshit eating repug give them something to enjoy.

[alcuno]

3. This guy is repeating the Republican playbook word for word.

I am from the South and this is the steady diet that white people are fed about the Democratic Party.

[Julien Sorel]

5. Why does it work in the South, but not elsewhere?

[alcuno]

14. The South has a history that the rest of the country doesn't have.

The Republican Party plays on that sense of history by pointing to Northerners as trying to lord it over the South. Northerners have always been seen as being equated with Democrats so it's that same war still being fought.

The Civil Rights Movement was yet another battle in that war. There are some terrific Democrats in the South, but you need to ask yourself why 70% of white, Southern males side with the Republicans. What would cause them to repeatedly vote against their own economic self-interests?

[1songbird]

27. "I used to believe that it was just a lack of education."

It has to be a subconscious fear to some extent. I've worked with guys from the midwest with PhD's that had this same belief.

[salin]

48. certainly not just in the south

have heard similar sentiments in the midwest. Its just that folks are a little more covert in their means of expressing it - but its there. Listen to the rants about democrats and affirmative action... democrats and "special interests" (code word for Unions and/or Minorities). THe special interests tag/codeword is especially interesting given the corporate pandering of the GOP.

[leftofthedial]

67. It works EVERYWHERE that Bush "won"

Not just in the South.

I have an acquaintance from Michigan. The most racist person I know, except for an ex-coworker from Boston, who uses the "n" word, openly tells racist jokes, believes al "n's" are criminals, and would wear a white sheet 24X7 if given half a chance.

It is NOT just the South. Even in the South, that is not a majority opinion.

[snippy]

6. The republican party needs to be defined as the home of racists and bigots

A significant portion of the republican base are racists and bigots. In many elections republicans can not win without those voters.

We need to define the republican party as the party of these people. Then decent Americans who vote republican can make an informed choice as to whether they want to support these bigoted hate mongers. And decent republicans would have to acknowledge this wing of their party.

These people would have no political influence if the republican party did not exploit their racism and approve of it with a wink and a nod. If the republican party rejected the support of racists and bigots, or if decent Americans rejected the republican party for not doing so, this country and the entire world would be much better off.

As long as decent democrats and republicans pretend that racist bigots are not a significant part of the republican party the influence of those hate mongers will continue to grow.

[MartinAmbroseForan]

31. Is that a message of hope?

That sounds like is a message of division to me, maybe I'm wrong.

[sendero]

37. puhlease....

...more of the "fight low-road machine gun fire with high-road pea-shooter fire" bullsh*t that has put the Dems in the position they are now in.

Nice try, but you cannot counter lies and propaganda with happy talk. The sooner *real^ Dems realize this and take off the gloves, the sooner we can take our country back from these malignant charlatans.

[snippy]

42. It is absolutely a message of division. But also one of hope.

The American people should be divided politically between those who support the political hate mongering of racists and bigots (and of the Reich wing fundamentalists) and those who reject that political hate mongering. But the American people will not divide themselves along these lines unless they are aware of the extent that the republican party supports the hate mongering. I hope that they become more aware of it. The country and the world would benefit.

[lumpy]

7. The irony is that the newest minorities

are those that are victims of layoffs and downsizing.

[pop goes the weasel]

8. There's more to it than that

If you are low-income and white in America, you are invisible. White people are assumed to have access to both money and power. When (usually) Democrats make an effort to make money and power more accessible to "disadvantaged groups," they focus on racial and ethnic minorities. What if you are just some poor white guy of unknown ancestry who could really use some dental work and money to fix the floor in your mobile home? Who gives a rat's ass about you? Do you really expect these guys to stand on the sidelines simply being happy for the attention being given to minorities? They want some attention, to, and if the best they can get is lip service from the GOP, they are going to take the best they can get. It isn't that they blame minorities for their problems as much as they feel that Dems don't care about their problems.

The way that so many Dems are acting over the Dean flag brouhaha, and Dean coming off as wishy-washy on the matter, will only confirm in Bubba's mind that Democrats don't care. In fact, worse than don't care--they believe Democrats actively hate poor whites. If the Democrats are going to start winning elections, we need to do a better job of proving that we care. I'm not sure that DUers are up to it, though, what with all the sheeple comments, and nasty comments about the South in particular that are so common here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

9. it isn't just the south. you're talking about my neighbors

most of them aren't bigots. invisible is a very apt term.

[FauxNewsBlues]

11. My wife has a story

After my father in law got out of the military (enlisted), he decided to independently contract out work to firms. A minority owned firm stiffed him $80,000, or 3 years worth of work, and were able to file bankrupcy and be forgiven the debt under a minority business program that a "white company" wouldn't have been eligible for at the time.

He was resentful, and turned to the right. He never had more than $30k a year of salary in his life until he was deep into his 50's. It's tough. What do you say to a child raised on welfare in the Appalacias who busts his tail to earn 1200 on SAT's, while a rich black kid whose parents are professionals in Beverly Hills, goofs off in school and breezes to the 1200. Sorry fella, it is to make up for past discrimination.

There are real hurts being experienced by working class and flat out poor white people especially in the rural south. The Republican party is their enemy, but they don't know it, because the Democratic party isn't speaking to them. Republicans are playing divide and conquer politics, and the democratic party is too busy pleasing the intelligencia on the coasts to realize that not every white person is an oppressor, but they can also be part of the afflicted.

Yes, these southerners who are poor, who are voting for the GOP are hurting themselves, but we as democrats are allowing this to happen by not being as aggressive about class as we are on race. It is the working class who are getting screwed as a group more than it is a racial issue. A hispanic kid from Palm Beach, who goes to an exclusive suburban public school has more options than a kid from rural Kentucky.

If we were honest, we would deal with that issue. Focus on lifting up the lower class even if they are not lesbian/gay/transgendered/puerto rican/black/eskimo/female etc. There is nothing wrong with lifting up minorities. In fact, it is quite noble. Poor rural whites are being left behind though, and as the factories shutter down, they can feel it, and are more susceptable to the subtle and not so subtle GOP brand of racism that helps divide the lower classes against one another while the wealthy conquer.

[QC]

16. "being as aggressive about class as we are on race"

That should be repeated here about a hundred times a day. It's what Democrats need to do to win.

But I won't hold my breath. Liberal attitudes toward poor whites tend to be quite uncharitable, to put it mildly.

[Resistance Is Futile]

53. Liberal attitudes

'Liberal' attitudes towards hicks are uncharitable because hick attituds towards 'liberals' are unchangable.

There's no point in being nice to a demographic that looks at people like us and literally sees satanic traitors.

[QC]

55. Who says irony is dead?

A hater complaining about people hating. A broad-brush artist complaining about people who paint with broad brushes.

You've definitely provided us with some excellent, if inadvertent, humor today.

[Resistance Is Futile]

59. Observation, not complaint

[snoochie]

19. You nailed it.

This is exactly the situation you see all over Texas. Everyone knows someone who has a story like that, and that's exactly the perception. I've had so many conversations about liberal policy with conservatives and at least half the time this issue comes up.

The ability of the right to get the left to do its bidding has decimated the Dem party and the people's trust in them. For years most have been too cowardly to have a frank dicussion about class, afraid of having 'class warfare' screamed at them.

If they can address this situation effectively and communicate the agenda successfully to the poor of all colors, that will go a long way towards helping race relations.

[Karenina]

32. Love the new stereotype!!!

"What do you say to a child raised on welfare in the Appalacias who busts his tail to earn 1200 on SAT's, while a rich black kid whose parents are professionals in Beverly Hills, goofs off in school and breezes to the 1200. Sorry fella, it is to make up for past discrimination." :eyes: :shrug: :eyes:

Yup, them rich nigras be the ones disfranchisin' po whites...

[QC]

33. ROFLMAO!

Funny to see someone denouncing stereotypes in faux po' folks dialect. I guess some stereotypes must be OK.

[Karenina]

36. Ironic, eh?

;-)

[_Jumper_]

63. He or she made a valid point

How can you justify discrimination in favor of someone based on race? In college admissions it is clear-cut discrimination. I can see affirmative action in employment since it helps negate some of the built-in advantage that whites have, but in college admissions there are clear standards. Let the most qualified applicants be admitted into a university. This can be done without discriminating based on skin color. The example he or she used just illustrated extreme cases where people that were more disadvantaged than others suffer discrimination against them based on their skin color. Why should Johhny Cochran or Richard Parson's kids be beneficiaries of government discrimination over the kids of welfare mothers who happen to have white skin?

[CWebster]

39. this line stands out:

"The Republican party is their enemy, but they don't know it, because the Democratic party isn't speaking to them."

Says it all.

[snippy]

44. Well said.

[loudnclear]

49. What do you say to a kid whose slot was taken by a 'legacy' placement ?

What do you say to all those people who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Ken Lays of the nation?

What you say is to tell the truth. There are bad and good people in every race. But you should vote for and support the people who are honestly working on behalf of your interests. Not the people who are using you by spewing lies, hatred, and appealing to your prejudices.

[QC]

15. Excellent post!

There is a longstanding tendency in America, and particularly on the Left, to assume that since money and power are concentrated among whites, then any white who does not have money and power has only himself to blame. He must be ignorant, or lazy, or inbred, or something equally awful, if he is poor.

The truth is that there has been a persistent white underclass in this country since the Colonial Era. Poverty and other forms of disadvantage are, to a large degree, inherited. If you grow up in an economically devastated part of Appalachia, for example, you have little chance at upward mobility, no matter what your race.

[maggrwaggr]

21. an excellent post

It's easy to forget that these people have feelings.

A lot of dems, and people on this board, are very quick to feel quite superior to these people.

Walk a mile in their shoes first. Has anyone tried that?

[Newcastle]

65. There are several problems with your analysis.

1. Our political leaders have collectively written off the working poor of whatever color. It's not like the Republicans are giving a message of hope to poor whites, and Democratic leaders have hardly been heroes in championing ethnic minorities of late.
2. The message that comes from race-bating is one of hate, and if whites of any social class are eating it up, then they have an inherent tendency toward racism.
3. It's not like black and brown people are living high and mighty. Take a look and you'll see that there are still a bunch of rich white men at the top of the totem pole. Why scapegoat minorities or these Democrats that you claim pander to "disadvantaged groups"?
4. Divide and conquer. That's the politician's strategy. Claim that a white guy has it rough because of some black handicapped lesbian instead of because of some very wealthy white guys manipulating the system to their own advantage.
5. If we have to "prove we care" to white guys, we also have to prove we care to black guys and Latina gals, and gays and lesbians. Or do we only have to prove we care to that one particular group? Wouldn't that mean we're still stuck in anachronistic racist thinking?
6. Why are these white guys you speak of so convinced their interests have nothing to do with those of working class blacks, Latinos and other minorities? Factually they're in the same boat. If these white guys can't see it, they are factually wrong. Why should we want to perpetuate wrongheaded thinking by patronizing it?
7. You use the mythical white guy who is working hard for a few bucks. The fact is, there are a lot of white guys making a lot of money who hold these beliefs.

[spunky]

10. Southerners are conservatives socially

They see homosexuals as a sin against god. They see guns as their god-given right to own to shoot animals. Murders should fry. Abortion is murder. etc, etc, etc. Finally, many poor whites see Affirmative Action as keeping them from getting jobs. There are so many issues on which strong Christian Southerners can NEVER agree with the Democratic Party on.

In many Southerners' eyes, the economy will eventually get better, but if you give gays the right to marry, you can never take it back. If you take away the guns, you can never get them back, same with the death penalty, and so on. With such a position, it does make more sense to vote Republican and just wait until the economy picks back up, after all, it always does.

As much as I hate to admit it, the Dems have a major uphill battle down here.

[jiacinto]

12. That's the problem the Dems have h ad with these voters

And I don't know how to fix them.

[AP]

13. They probably had to interview 50 people before they got the quote they...

...thought would hurt democrats.

[Guaranteed]

35. Doesn't this justify what Dean is trying to do? nt

[AP]

40. What? Create a situation where local news can

interview 50 people until they find one uninformed person to say something stupid that ralies the right wing around their blame-blacks mentality?

This is why Dean should have been smarter. Somewhere else here I read how the SC NAACP leader asked Dean not to make a big deal out of the flag months ago. So what does he do? He keeps mentioning it until he crosses the line.

[bearfartinthewoods]

45. YES!!!! and that's EXACTLY why i'm so pissed that he blew it!!!

[markus]

17. CLASS WARFARE

That is what we need.

The Democratic Party needs to stop worrying about affirmative action start focusing almost exclusively on economic issues.

However, try suggesting that affirmative action should be based exclusively on income, on a stage with Rev. Sharpton.

The children of upper middle class, college graduage, professional African American's don't need affirmative action.

The kids of the poor white guy who changes his oil at Jiffy Lube do need affirmative action.

Its a simple, and as difficult, as that.

It is us v. them, and I'm tired of losing.

Eat The Rich.

[FauxNewsBlues]

18. Agreed

Do we want to feel good, or do good? It's a serious question.

Chelsea Clinton does have ovaries, but Sidwell, bright parents, money has made up for that fact. I am sure she would do fine without any gender based program.

A poor white boy from rural Montana who is trying to get into Stanford might need a bit more help.

The child of successful upper middle class black parents from a good neighborhood does not need the help an immigrant latino kid from rural Arizona might need.

It's (mostly) all about class. Affirmative action is a middle class program. Poor kids, be they black, white, female, or whatever are really not part of the program. If we insist on telling a white kid, whose father was layed off from the plant as the job went overseas, and he left soon after, his mother on welfare, food stamps, that he is a priviledged white person, and he should give up the slot he got in college for Will Smith's kid who had private tutors, "the greater good" is not going to mean a hill of beans to him.

Poor Southern whites are lucky to just be ignored by our party. If not so lucky, they are insulted, degraded, marginalized. They are at the bottom of the pecking order, with crappy schools, crappy hope, and no advocates. Growing up in rural southern poverty, I am shocked that even more poor whites don't develop racial/racist animosity, when they know they haven't had a cushy time of it.

Until we as a party try to reach out to these people, adjust Affirmative Action to include class, not just race, we are going to lose the southern vote.

It's ironic. There are people here calling southern whites the most vile of names, discriminating against them verbally, in thought, in deed, while arguing for affirmative action to combat stereotyping, hatred, prejudices against others.

[roguevalley]

22. I saw a report today where someone went out and talked to three people

in Georgia about Dean's remarks. The first, flying his flag, said he would/could vote for Dean. He was neat as a pin and house proud/white.

A fat, shirtless guy with christmas lights around his trailer and the General Lee parked nearby said no. He liked what Bush was doing in Iraq, inarticulate and stupid sounding and hateful with his attitudes. He was stereotypical with his flags.

Third was a couple, neat as a pin, both said no. The woman pointed out hubby's pick up with its Confed. flag and he said, that is a complete listing of what Dean says. She was silent and then said lamely, "whatever."

I think a lot of stupid rednecked idiots living in all the regions of the USA don't know how stupid they are. It suprised her to see that despite her denials that she was a white redneck hick that she fit it to a tee by her belongings. Personally, she was one with her attitudes. We have a lot of disenfranchised people who have dug into an identity and hold it like a second skin because without it they won't even be seen.

[mmonk]

23. disenfranchised or just culturally illiterate?

[LiberalTexan]

25. I don't think Dean

really expects he is going to automatically pick up those kinds of voters by making those remarks. He's the only candidate I've seen actually working hard to make progress on these types of racial/social/Southern issues.

Frankly, I like John Edwards but I'm getting tired of him assuming the Southern vote is locked up for him because of his accent. I see Dean working much harder to cater to the Southern voter. If you want proof, see how many times Dean has come to Texas. Compare that to the other candidates. I know he walks the talk.

[AP]

43. "tired of him assuming the Southern vote is locked up for him"

Usually this is the statement people make about candidates who don't bother campaigning for their vote.

Do feel like Edwards is ignoring you as a Texan? As a southerner?

I get the impression that Edwards definitely isn't ignoring those votes. I think he's doing more than any of the other candidates to craft a campaign around the interests of all working and middle class people, wherever they're from. Furthermore, he's been all over the south campaigning. He's the top fundraiser in TX.

[snoochie]

26. Um....

I've been thinking this about a few of the posts on this subject... so this isn't an attack on your or anything. I mean I'm not trying to argue but I just had to point out how insulting some posts are about rural Americans. Saying things like 'stupid rednecked idiots' and 'white redneck hick' (again this is just handy because I'm responding to your post, not singling you out) are really hurtful.

I mean, is it wrong to imagine replacing those words with words used to describe other races?

Should it be any less hurtful?

Just IMHO, I think this kind of talk is keeping us held back in race relations.

White people are people too.

[nonconformist]

28. Honestly, I have to agree

I get very frustrated too sometimes, but discounting people as "stupid hicks" is really damaging. Just as damaging if you discounted several minority voters as "stupid *insert racial insult here*". It's wrong, and that perpetuates the "elitist attitude" that has turned many Democrats into Republicans.

I do think that many of them are simply uninformed (or misinformed, as the case may be). Some can't look past social issues that they feel so conservatively on, even though these issues don't affect their lives directly - particularly with living in a small southern town. Some really don't understand that at the end of the day, Democrats are the ones that have their best interests at heart that affect them DIRECTLY. And some, sadly, are well-informed of the issues but their conservative views on social and religious issues keep them voting for Republicans. I don't really understand it... that a person in the rural south can accept not having any options but minimum wage jobs in their area with no benefits and what most would consider a sub-standard way of life but be happy that dammit, at least there won't be a lesbian couple getting married in California anytime soon.

Believe me, I get frustrated every day. But generalities is not the way to change things. The Democrats have to be active in getting the message out that we support the working class, not just the minority working class. While I feel that issues such as minority rights, gay/lesbian rights and reasonable gun control are important, I also feel that we need to be a bit broader in our reach and connect on levels that your average lower-middle class straight religious white southerner can relate too. Because I feel that's where we've failed, when I listen to neighbors in my small KY town talk. Those issues are jobs, the economy, respect and value for our Veterans, and health care. These are things that affect their lives on a day-to-day basis, and it's what will turn them around. These ARE things that the Democrats talk about - but we need to do more of it. Shout it from the rooftops, even.

[Resistance Is Futile]

57. Not racism

Racism and bigotry are matters of hating people for attributes they cannot change. Ethnic origin, skin color and sexual orientations are not choices.

Ignorance, however, is a choice. Decisions taken by choice are fair game. Every generation of hicks makes a choice to be ignorant. They made their bed; let them lie in it.

[FlaGranny]

72. That's not true at all,

ignorance is not a choice, it is a trap. Do you think, for an instant, if these people's kids had access to everything that an affluent community had, that they would stay ignorant? They are in a poverty trap of poor homes, poor nutrition, and poor education.

[redqueen]

74. Using that tortured logic...

we can insult muslims and jews and christians with all the slurs we can come up with, because they've chosen to follow those religions.

Hogwash. Making excuses for being able to make ugly comments about people ... oughtta be ashamed.

[Resistance Is Futile]

75. Religion is fair game

Religions beliefs are entitled to no special protections against mockery. If someone wants to believe in an invisible omnipotent deity which has an interest in elections and other peoples' sex lives then that person has no right not to be pitied or mocked any less than an adult who believes in Santa Clause.

[wellst0nev0ter]

62. Except That Most Poor Whites Live In Middle-Class Neighborhoods

Which would just leave the poor blacks that live in poor neighborhoods behind.

Just so you know.

[sandnsea]

38. Just ignore racism?

That's what you're suggesting. I'm horrified by this and this is why I've been angry at the Confederate Flag statement. I think Dean thinks exactly the same way you do. Which is why he said a few years ago that he thinks Affirmative Action should be class not race.

This is so wrongheaded and will only make racism worse. You cannot solve race problems by sweeping them under the rug. Racists have to be told they're wrong.

That kid at the Jiffy Lube can get a student grant and loan and go to school just like my kids are doing. I'm sorry it's tough to get out of high school and get a decent job, but it's not because minorities are getting all the breaks. It's because you have to have an education to get ahead and Jiffy Lube people disdain education. If women and minorities have figured out you have to go to college and Jiffy Lube guy hasn't, then that's his fault. In addition, Jiffy Lube guy doesn't have it any HARDER than minorities and women, he just knows, finally, what it's like to be on a level playing field. It's been this hard for women and minorites for decades.

I'm sick of this whiny white male crap. I fear Dean is buying into it as well and that's only going to create another race war down the road.

[Spentastic]

46. Well said

I thought they were going to get away with that for a while too.

Class and Race are separate and need to be addressed separately. Classism and Racism are different phenomena and have had different impacts on society. You can't drop one to solve the other.

These people making statements like the ones reported and those who would pander to his views are just wrong. It stinks of white guys whining that people getting equal rights is taking away their God given right to an easy life. All those blacks, women and gays being treated equally are somehow getting in their way.

Re - educate them or tell the to get fucked. Winning their votes on their ground will cost you your soul.

[QC]

50. "Jiffy Lube people disdain education"

That says it all.

Before you take on other people's prejudices, you might do well to examine your own.

[Rich Hunt]

51. thank you

I will NEVER understand or identify with this logic.

If the "Jiffy Lube" guy (who doesn't have to be white) goes to college and gets a "good job", who will work at Jiffy Lube?

Maybe "Jiffy Lube Guy" just doesn't like living with the feeling that his life would be over if the economy tanked and the Jiffy Lube closed.

Also, "Jiffy Lube Guy" probably still makes more than his wife, "Wal-Mart Woman".

But they all "hate education" or else they'd all be teaching at universities - so who cares about them?

I believe that's called "social Darwinism".

[Resistance Is Futile]

56. Understanding logic

Your arguments do not make all that much sense, frankly.

If the "Jiffy Lube" guy (who doesn't have to be white) goes to college and gets a "good job", who will work at Jiffy Lube?

This is not Jiffy Lube guy's problem. Education is in his best interests. Ensuring there are enough unskilled workers around to work at Jiffy Lube is a problem for government and business to worry about.

Maybe "Jiffy Lube Guy" just doesn't like living with the feeling that his life would be over if the economy tanked and the Jiffy Lube closed.

In which case he should have got an education so he isn't tied to one employer.

Also, "Jiffy Lube Guy" probably still makes more than his wife, "Wal-Mart Woman".

If he only wants to make more than Wal Mart pays out, then he set his sights too low.


Now go ask the Jiffy Lube guy if he'd go to college if he had the opportunity. Chances are the answer you'll get will be along the lines of "I don't need me no book learnin'".

[sandnsea]

60. Meaning?

I love how people throw out zingers with absolutely no substance behind them. Perhaps if you further explain my 'prejudices', I would be able to respond. While you're at it, perhaps you could explain how a white guy ends up working at Jiffy Lube because of racism or Affirmative Action.

And, btw, Jiffy Lube was the first poster's charactarization, not mine.

[QC]

64. Who said he works there because of AA?

I sure didn't, and no one else here did either, as far as I can tell. If you are going to get indignant about people misrepresenting you, then it's only fair that you not mispresent others.

What I was talking about was the broad-brush assertion that anyone working a blue-collar job clearly does not value education.

The notion that anyone who doesn't go to college just doesn't value "book larnin'" assumes that higher ed is just sitting out there waiting for anyone willing to grab it. That's simply not the case. We don't all emerge from the womb with equal chances in life.

If no one else in your family made it to college, as was my case, it is hard even to picture doing it yourself. College, like so many other opportunities in life, seems like something for other people, the ones with more money. Lots of people graduate from lousy schools where the science books are thirty years old and the like, making it tough to do college-level work. Many people do not have supportive families. Others have to help feed their own families even when young, as was the case with my grandfather, who left school in fourth grade because he was needed on the farm. (I can assure you that he had great respect for learning, as those who have been deprived of it often do.)

Then there's the matter of expense. Tuition costs have more than quadrupled since I was a freshman twenty years ago, while the minimum wage has gone up two bucks in that time, making it quite literally impossible to work your way through school. Median family incomes have been stagnant since the early 1970's. Grants are smaller and harder to get than in the past, and loans can saddle you with a lifetime of debt. (I owe over $100k.) Students are leaving college with highers debts than ever before.

So, when I see someone acting as though higher ed is an entitlement that is there for anyone who cares enough to take it, I see someone viewing life through the blinkers of bourgeois privilege.

And when I see grotesque descriptions of working-class people that bear no resemblance to my own blue-collar family, I see stereotypes.

While slinging around stereotypes might count for intelligent political discourse at Freak Republic, I expect a bit more from liberals.

[sandnsea]

68. Oh dear lord

Here's the post. Affirmative Action has nothing to do with your situation and has nothing to do with the poor white guy at Jiffy Lube in this post. Nothing, zero, nada, zip. Do not come to me with your family saga. My father was dyslexic and never learned to read or write, I wasn't able to finish college and neither were my sisters and brother. My husband's mother was injured and unable to work and they ate scraps his grandmother collected from her waitressing job. My life circumstances aren't better or worse because some black kid in Mississippi went to college.

"The Democratic Party needs to stop worrying about affirmative action start focusing almost exclusively on economic issues.

However, try suggesting that affirmative action should be based exclusively on income, on a stage with Rev. Sharpton.

The children of upper middle class, college graduage, professional African American's don't need affirmative action.

The kids of the poor white guy who changes his oil at Jiffy Lube do need affirmative action.

Its a simple, and as difficult, as that.

It is us v. them, and I'm tired of losing.

Eat The Rich."

[QC]

71. Please point out where

I said that my situation had anything to do with AA, or that the guy at Jiffy Lube is there because of AA. Please. Because I have said no such thing, and your habit of throwing around straw men is getting old.

My point, again, is that just as race is a reality in America, so is class, and it is high time for the Left in this country to rediscover class. It is not an either/or matter--acknowledging the reality of class does not mean abandoning race. In fact, it is a way to get the disadvantaged of all races to see their common interests and work together for change, something that old time Progressives recognized.

America's economic elites have spent years dividing the working class along racial lines. That was, in fact, the purpose of Jim Crow--to encourage poor whites to identify with rich whites, rather than with the poor blacks with whom they had much more in common. The Robber Barons deliberately broke strikes with scabs of a race or ethnicity unpopular among the strikers, so that in their eyes it would be the blacks or Poles who took their jobs, not Andrew Carnegie or Henry Clay Frick. There's a very long and ugly history in America of using race to divide and conquer the working class, and it has been very effective. Dealing with class is the only way to counteract that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. I'm bookmarking this thread for this post.

It is the MOST intelligent well reasoned post I have ever seen on the subject.

[mmonk]

20. The media found someone like that for a purpose

You could find someone like that probably in every state in the union. If I were to walk around my neighborhood in Raleigh, I most likely would not find someone like this. If, however, I took off and road around all the rural areas of the state, I might find one in a few hours. Its a stretch to say this man is representative. They, of course, are out there. But they already are republican and probably have been for years. We won't get them AND we don't need them.

[unfrigginreal]

24. This fellows opinion is shared by many in the South.

And yeah the GOP is busy cultivating and spreading that opinion far and wide. What have we done to counter it?

The reason that he feels that way about minorities is because we Dems don't talk about anything else. He hears all the time about how we're fighting injustices to blacks, gays, jews, etc. but when is SOMEBODY going to speak for him? Hell, even our strong stands with the unions probably don't apply to him. I'm sure he's living in a right to work State.

We are the party of the right ideals we just don't apply them equally.

[maggrwaggr]

29. Excellent points. Men like that feel if they were "transgendered"

they'd get more attention but instead they are derided and ridiculed by the "elitist" liberals.

And they'd have a point.

I, too, get sick and tired of the left constantly harping on stuff like "rights for the transgendered" and stuff like that when out in the real world things are going to complete shit.

Pick your fights. We need to pick this one again and start over from scratch.

[Resistance Is Futile]

54. Charming contempt

The hicks are killing people for their sexual orientations. Rights for GBLTs are as 'real world' as things can get. GBLT rights need to be shelved for the immediate future (getting rid of the idiot king is far more important) but they must not be removed from the platform in the long term merely to appeal to crazed southern zealots.

[Newcastle]

69. You make a very good point.

I'm still scratching my head as to who these elitist liberals are who are championing the transgendered and making fun of insecure white heterosexual guys in the South. Is that in Kerry's platform? Don't tell me Lieberman said that! Some of the people here would have us believe that lots of white guys didn't vote for Al Gore because he's the world's leading spokesman for rich black transgendered folk who don't live in the harsh, cruel, "real" world that these poor white guys have to live in. I'm beginning to think we live in alternate universes, because nothing even remotely like that happens in my world. I think they despise Al Gore/liberals first and then they come up with the excuses. It's up to the rest of us to fight for the underdogs, whoever they may be, because the politicians won't do it, regardless of party.

[sandnsea]

41. He thinks he's entitled???

It's bizarre. How do you help somebody who uses the services you provide and then rejects you for providing them? I can't tell you how many people I've known on food stamps and in low-income housing voting Republican. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe it's the only pride they have, pretending they aren't a 'low-life' because they don't vote 'like one'.

[Newcastle]

70. I simply cannot let your comments pass.

First of all, if someone is in a "right to work" state, unions do apply to them. Union workers are making more money than non-union workers, often for doing the same job. You'd think this poor, defenseless schmuck would realize that.

Secondly, since when are Dems ALWAYS fighting injustices against blacks, gays, Jews, etc.? These are generalizations that cannot be backed up by the facts.

Thirdly, since when are Democratic ideals not applied to white people? Again, this is a generalization that is not borne out by the facts. The fact is white people are the major beneficiaries of the policies of both major parties. It just so happens that the Democratic party tends to favor more people - and, hence, more white people - than the Republican party.

Fourthly, what do you see the Republicans offering these poor, miserable white guys that the Democrats don't?

[CWebster]

34. The poor whites in Vermont...

Might as well be in the deep South. Dean did a lot to address their concerns--healthcare, improved educational opportunity and they voted him back in 5 times.

Why should that not appeal to poor Southern whites as well? Dean speaks from experience, something that the good Senators are far removed from.

[bread_and_roses]

47. It's about race and it's also about

class and gender. Why would Democrats have to give up advocating for racial justice to advocate for economic justice? However, it is far safer to address racial inequalities by supporting an already established principle like affirmative action, than to offer anything new on the racial injustice pervasive through all segments of our culture. Like taking on the prison industrial complex we have created that relies so heavily on minority men (and increasingly, minority women).

As far as any challenge to the status quo around economic injustice - a challenge that might have a chance at bringing low-income people back to the Dem core, well...that might cut into the profits of some of their corporate masters, after all. Can't have that.

[kimchi]

52. Since I was born a poor, white, southerner, I'd like to interject.

Everyone keeps saying it is about class--but it isn't. It is about ignorance. It is about the culture that allows itself to be used and abused and then bitches about it-usually blaming the wrong people (Mexicans, blacks, lesbians, whatever) instead of the Republicans and themselves.

So hell yeah, let people pick their sides. My nephew rambles on and on about how Mexicans in Texas get all the good jobs. My dad is afraid the gummint is gonna take his guns.

I love my parents, but they bought into the fear. Sure, a lot of it is the propaganda, but it is based on the idea that someone else has something you don't. That is what the republicans play to-not personal responsibility but projection. If people took the time to be well-read and aware, regardless of social standing and economics, they sure as hell wouldn't vote for the pukes. I figured it out in 7th grade in Current Events class-so I'm not cutting anyone else any slack for being brainwashed. I don't care if you are black, poor, maimed, lesbian, rich, Latino, cross-eyed or have a beer belly...

There is PLENTY of evidence just in the headlines, without reading the text, to know that our country is being hijacked. No matter what disadvantages or advantages you've had in life--if people cannot see that they are only deluding themselves. And so, no, we don't NEED them. They can either wake up now and help save our country or be part of the problem; and it won't take too many more negative headlines before we reach that critical mass.

Flame all you want, but I'm sticking to my theory of the mindless zombies. It is time for people to choose sides; and while I agree that the Democratic party sucks at making poor whites feel welcome, there are many people who are just plain greedy or obtuse, and they will always be led astray. Luckily, we are in the majority--and all democrats have ever had to do is increase the number of people at the polls.

[Resistance Is Futile]

58. Applause

[Newcastle]

66. I agree with you

that there are a lot of people - not just poor people - who want to be misled, who refuse to see what's sitting in front of them. I used to say people were gullible, but with the crimes being perpetrated daily by the Bush administration, it's even worse than that. These people are like parents who refuse to admit to themselves that their child is a psychopathic murderer even when they see the bloody clothes every day. It's willful ignorance.

What I don't necessarily agree with is that the Democrats do a poor job of reaching out to poor whites. I think most poor people in this country don't even vote, but there have always been a lot of poor whites in the Democratic party.

[Hep]

73. Hearts and minds.

That's what it's about. Anyone who is open to reason is a target!