Dean: "Don't base vote on race, god, guns, and gays"

[Closer]

You GO Boy!


http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp


This day old story is the TOP story at Drudge right now. Hmm, why? Is Drudge trying to stir up more trouble?

[thinkahead]

1. Drudge has it up top

because they know Dean will be the nominee.

[mmonk]

2. Don't keep bringing up quotes like that.

I'm trying to give Dean a little bit of the doubt.

[Bread and Circus]

3. Dean was my #2 guy ever since I saw him in Detroit...

but this line gives me great pause. I can't
believe he said something like this.

:scared:

[Classical_Liberal]

5. I don't get it?

Are you in the religious right?

[Bread and Circus]

6. He is drawing lines in the sand by stereotyping....

I understand what he is saying but his
verbage is not statesmanlike.

And god no, I am not in the religious
right...I can't remember the last time I
went to church.

I just want our nominee to win the general election,
that's all.

[Classical_Liberal]

20. Statesmanlike is not a plus in my view

. I like plain talk and I didn't see anything wrong with saying that. Alot of people vote against their class interests over those issues. It is silly. What is wrong with saying something about it?

[Mz Pip]

39. I think we've had

enough of "plain talk" in the last 3 years.

MzPip
:dem:

[Classical_Liberal]

49. You mean uninformed talk

There is nothing uninformed about the fact that dems are being fucked with the culture war.

[mmonk]

8. When he says it to every region of the country

I'll feel more comfortable with it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. Dean, tone down the culture war, before you sound like Buchanan in reverse

This flag sticker nonsense is total BS, but Dean needs to stop. This is the problem with rich people - this is Dean's version of Bush Sr. and the checkout scanner. He really doesn't know what he's talking about.

Keep talking about jobs and attacking Bush, he'll be fine.

[Bread and Circus]

10. You said it better than I...

we don't need to give ammunition to the
opposition. We already have a culture war enough
as it is, we don't need to take the focus off of
what we know we can win on:

The war in Iraq
Jobs
Equity, equality, and access
Crony Capitalism
Threatening women's reproductive rights
Leadership
Accountability
Health care system broken
etc.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. This is silly

This is like saying talking about racism causes racism.

[Bread and Circus]

29. No, this is like saying...

Dean has very little chance of winning in the
South and he will have no chance of winning it
when says stuff to piss everyone off down there.

If he came to my state (Michigan) and said "don't
base your vote based on your values X, Y, and Z,
vote on what I think is good for you" I wouldn't
like it.

He may be right but telling people that their values
are misplaced is not a way to win votes.

But what do I know, he has done well so far...

:shrug:

I still think he is dooming our party though.
He should take the influence he now has and do
better things with it. Threatening to re-elect Bush
is not helpful IMO.

[Classical_Liberal]

51. If he has no chance of winning the South

Why do you care whether they get pissed off?

[Julien Sorel]

14. Reagan was the Great Communicator; William Jennings Bryan

was the Great Commoner; and Howard Dean is the Great Commander. He doesn't discuss, he orders. The guy's a clod. This was just the day after he got spanked by Sharpton and Edwards for his arrogance.

Maybe Dean thinks he is the star in the new Russell Crowe film, 'Master and Commander.' I can see it now:

Howard Dean starring in Master and Commander: The Far Side of New England

[Bread and Circus]

15. Yeah, it does seem arrogant to tell people what to base...

their vote on.

And why is he preaching as if he already won
the nomination? If anything that is a general
election talking point. I don't know where Dean
is going with this.

Either this is the beginning of his implosion,
or he is so confident he's won the nomination
he really thinks he can tell Southern voters how
to vote...

:wtf:

[Classical_Liberal]

26. five minutes ago you were complaining that he was pandering

to their racism. Make up your mind.

[Bread and Circus]

34. No I wasn't claiming he was pandering to anything...

I think he is trying to win Southern votes in
a piss poor way.

But hey, if his poll numbers go way up in South
Carolina in the next week or so, I will be proven
wrong.

I just want to get Bush out of office and I am
really worried we won't...

[CWebster]

18. There you go again Billy.

Dissing the Northern states, are you? Culture wars, indeed.

[Julien Sorel]

25. Gee, I don't see where I 'dissed' Northern states there.

But when you're desperate, I suppose you see 'dissing' all over the place.

[Classical_Liberal]

24. How is he ordering?

Do you want them to vote on class, race, god and guns?

[Julien Sorel]

28. From the story:

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

I've seen it phrased the same way in another story, so I don't think this is a misquote. Leaders shouldn't talk like that -- leaders communicate, they don't command.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

36. Billy is on a mission

;-)

[Classical_Liberal]

35. Unless he forces them to not vote race god guns and gays

that isn't a command. It is like telling someone to stop smoking or you'll ge emphasema. Nothing wrong with that.

[Julien Sorel]

53. I think you miss the point.

He's telling them what to do, the day after he was admonished for doing that very same thing. And when someone in a position of authority, or would-be authority, makes speeches like that, his words take on a different meaning than they would in every day speech. It's arrogant, crass, and poor communication. 'You have to do something', and you don't see where that's a command? I work in a leadership position, and if I regularly spoke with my employees like that they would consider me an arrogent jerk, and probably resent me to the point where they tried to sabotage me with passive-aggressive behavior.

Good persuasive language:

'I respect and admire your tradition of religion, your patriotism, your record of service in our nation's military, and the strong values that have made the South the great bastion of democracy that it is. But you deserve more. I want to show you how....' Then he goes into his healthcare/jobs speil.


Bad language: Anything that tells people they 'have' to do something.

The first example answers the question paramount in peoples' minds when hearing a speech: what's in it for me? without talking down to them; the second example implies there's something wrong with the way they are living, and they must change. Which version is more persuasive?

In fact, I can't believe that there's even discussion here, and I'm going to chalk it up to typical Deanite fanaticism. But he's a clod, and he continues to prove it time and again.

[Classical_Liberal]

56. NO the message is consistent

It is you who are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You are a consistent Dean basher. He is saying they should vote on economics, rather than the culture war. He isn't hurting in the polls. That is your candidate.

[Julien Sorel]

60. The usual denseness.

It isn't what he says, it's how he says it. Three days of this, and people still don't get it.

[Classical_Liberal]

63. It isn't what he says. it is that he is winning

We get that message pretty clear.

[Julien Sorel]

66. As Darth Vader said,

All too easy...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. More importantly he said Bob Graham was on his short list for

VP. If he would GUARANTEE that I might vote for him.

[kentuck]

7. I started to post something similar earlier...

Perhaps we have too much on the plate. We need to simplify. We need to pick two or three issues and fill up our plate. Is it possible with the diversity that is in our Party? All the issues are important but what if we had to choose only two or three? What would they be?

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Well, equality for everyone would be a good start.

*

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Gee, atleast Clinton took a beating for two years on a

Democratic platform before going Centrist.

NAFTA, anyone?

[incapsulated]

12. Why this won't work

And perhaps backfire totally.

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Telling people that don't have your vote that they have stupid priorities and they should listen to you, the Yankee, instead, is not a good way to make friends and influence people in the south.

Instead of talking down to them and insulting their voting habits he should be talking about what the Democrats can do for them that the rethugs will not.

Doesn't he have anyone from the south on his staff??

[Closer]

17. I disagree with you

I'm a native southerner, and so is all my family, and I couldn't agree with Dean MORE!

He is right on!

I guess the sad nation isn't ready for the truth. Just stick you American flag on your car, bow your head, say the pledge of allegiance and be on your merry little way.

What sad times we live in.

And the way you "democrats" here are responding to this utter tripe, you are assuring Bush victory in '04. Keep it up, nice work guys!

[incapsulated]

32. And we will lose the south again

"I guess the sad nation isn't ready for the truth. Just stick you American flag on your car, bow your head, say the pledge of allegiance and be on your merry little way."

Excuse me? What does that have to do with anything?

I doubt very much that you voted for a republican recently.

The majority of your fellow southerners have, that's the reality, deny it if you want to.

It doesn't even have to do with the south, it's just common political sense! Don't insult people whose votes you are trying to get, how much more simple can it be? If some southern canditate came to the east and started criticising how we voted, it wouldn't go over any better than this! Tell people what you can do for them, not that their past voting habits are "wrong".

Do you really believe southerners are just going to stop caring about religion and guns just cause Dean tells them to? Push them toward a more postive expression of their "values" if you can, short of outright rascism and homophobia. We will never get those votes, and who wants them? Show them how the Democrats will actually address the problems that they have, instead of bringing up their "hot buttons". (And I thought Dean was pro-gun? Why is he suddenly preaching the opposite to the one crowd that would respond well to this?)

Dean supporters can't seem to make up their minds. First it's "court the southern white vote, come what may", now it's "lecture them on their stupid ways".

[CWebster]

43. It wasn't an insult

except for those who sought advantage by painting it as one.

[Kahuna]

57. When you tell people to leave God out of anything...

it is an insult.

[CWebster]

22. The only folks who object are Clark and Kerry supporters

Clark however, knows when to hold his tongue. If his troops on board here are any reflection of his base - than I don't blame Clark for disassociating with his grassroots. Obviously the guy is no dummy.

Now Kerry... he is just pathetic.

[Classical_Liberal]

23. Bullhocky

They have been voting against their class interests and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. The DLC doesn't like class politics though. They want socially liberal republicans.

[Kahuna]

38. Absolutely agree with you....

Dean is clearly out of his element in dealing with southerners. I can't possibly see how he thinks that attacking everything that is near and dear to them will translate into support.

[CWebster]

16. This guy is absolutely fearless

in a party of pantywaists.

We forgot what it was like to have a fighter. It has been so long that it actually frightens us. Man, what a ride, but hell, why not, what choice do we have?

[mmonk]

19. Well he's going to have to fight like hell

without any electoral votes from the south.

[CWebster]

27. We will see.

Maybe the South will like the Democrat the other insiders are trying to hack to pieces. Maybe Dean's rebel spirit will appeal to them. Maybe the fact that he even recognizes them means something more than the same platitudes they hear from the same insincere multi-millionaire career politicians. Maybe they prefer a Doctor to a trial lawyer and a pompous senator. We will see.

[Bread and Circus]

37. He should continue to fight Bush...

that's what has got him so far.

As far as I am concerned, Clark has taken that
department over and is taking it right to the neocons.

This am, Clark trashed the MIC and "the American Empire"

Dean is trashing Southerners for what may be culturally
important to them.

[doubles]

30. Does Dean really want to win or is it about...

notoriety, fame and money?
Come on people, you do not drop two major bombs in a space of 48 hours. We all know Dean is more intelligent than this.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

50. Zynx. I guarantee you that this statement is more offensive...

than the confederate flag issue. Not only is he telling people that their values are wrong, he's telling Christian folks to leave God out of their decision. Not cool.

[kicknitup]

77. No, it's not cool

Someone will tell him, "This is America and I can base my vote on whatever the hell I want to."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

82. Dean is more intelligent than this?

I'm not convinced he's at all intelligent. I like what Billy said up above- It's not WHAT he says but HOW. His diplomatic skills are lower than Bush's in some ways. Hard to believe he came from Park Avenue and Southampton.

[Kahuna]

33. Oh oh... He said the "G" word......

meaning, "God." That was when McCain self destructed. The minute McCain attacked the christian coalition I knew it was curtains for him. Of course, Democrats won't care. But it doesn't bode well for the general election. Count on Lieberman to bring it up.

[Bread and Circus]

42. This is the beginning of Dean's implosion if he doesn't cool it...

My #2 guy is back to Kerry.

Dean is being insane, what is he doing???

I am so panicked by these statements and the
blind faith of his followers. If he wins the
nomination, we will have zero chance of winning
the Presidency, Bush will win in a landslide, and
will have momentum to start more wars....

Yikes, sincerely.

[Kahuna]

44. This is worse than the confederate flag thing....

The man doesn't have a clue. Like I said... Govenor of Vermont was the perfect job for him. He is messing up bad with his rhetoric. Really bad. If this guy got the nomination, he has guaranteed bush's reselection.

[doubles]

47. If he continues he will destroy all the candiddates chances in 2K4!

[Kahuna]

52. He surely won't be on anybody's list as a VP choice...

Just shut up Howie. Talk about healthcare and jobs. That's what people want to hear about. They don't want a northern yankee telling them that there's something wrong with their culture.

[CWebster]

75. The sky is falling or

The world according to men enamoured with Clark:

Dean is the cause of all our ruin.

[dsc]

40. Just what is wrong with this quote?

Have any of you whining about this quote actually been in the South? Is it really your contention that there isn't a substantial number of voters down there voting directly against their economic interests due entirely to one or more of those issues? Newsflash, there certainly are. And Republicans know it and act on it. The races for Tresurer of Mississippi in 95 was based entirely on the candidates calling each other gay. In 87 a governor had to sign an afadavid stating he wasn't gay. Thank God a candidate is telling them this.

[Bread and Circus]

45. I don't have to be from the South to see that something is...

stupid.

When Clark said nice things about folks in the Bush
administration, that was stupid and frankly I wish
he would have been more apologetic. However, Clark
has seemed to learn from his mistakes.

So I don't mind saying that what Dean said today is
stupid and he has not appeared to learn anything from
his statements he made about the CF. I tried to give
him a pass on that. But now, he is just being cocky
and arrogant. I don't like him gambling with my party.

This is not straight talk, this is tomfoolery.

[Kahuna]

46. To me.. The bad part is him mentioning, "God."...

The south ain't called the Bible Belt for nothing. I know that a lot of DUers think that Democrats are not religious or Christians, but that just isn't so. He should no more bring God into it than bush does. People don't take kindly being told to leave God out of things.

[Bread and Circus]

48. To put this in perspective...

What if Bush said to us:

"Don't base your vote on abortion rights,
equality in America, Freedom of Religion,
and separation of Church and State?"

---

Would that make you want to vote for him?

[Classical_Liberal]

54. Many people who believe in those things do vote Bush

because they are economic conservatives. Libertarians are Bush voters for the most part. Dean is triangulating social conservatives. I think class has been ignored as an issue in America. I like this track.

[Kahuna]

55. Nope. A lot of southerners, some of them Democrats...

voted for bush and still support him because they think he is Godly, and a moral man. If we are going to take those votes, it will be with a moral man who doesn't deride their faith as baseless when it comes to selecting a president.

[Bread and Circus]

58. Kahuna, you are so smart...

:hug:

[Kahuna]

59. So are you pal 'o mine....

:hug:

[Classical_Liberal]

61. He didn't deride it as baseless.

. He told them to vote on issues rather than religion. I guess the founders were being antireligious when they created the "no establishment clause"

[Kahuna]

65. Okay. For lack of a better word, I used...

"deride." I don't really know a softer term to use. Feel free to fill in the blank. But going to the Bible Belt and telling people to leave God out is a no no.

In my Baptist church, we are told to make God a part of everything. Now, I personally don't put God into politics because I believe in the seperation of church and state based upon bible teaching. But a lot of people, by tradition do comingle religion and politics.

[Classical_Liberal]

68. Time will tell.

.

[knight_of_the_star]

73. Last time I checked

insulting a person's morals is a BAD way to get them to vote for you! The fact that Dean is doing this shows that he has more guts than brains, which will probably blow up in his face. After that kind of remark, I don't want him ANYWHERE on the ticket.

[unfrigginreal]

64. Yeah

A lot of them could afford to put God above economic issues then, we were in the Clinton economy. We'll see how that plays next year.

[Kahuna]

67. You don't get it. Christian folks put God...

above everything.

[unfrigginreal]

70. You're talking about fundies

The majority of Christians believe that God comes before everything else but they're also pragmatic about what it takes to live comfortably.

[mitchtv]

72. wrong....... 'real' Christians put God above all

the American south kind put appearances before all. All except their bank account and SUV

[Nicholas_J]

80. Yup.

I dont beleive that Dean would make that God and Guns speech in Jacksonville, the the democratas here are largely Socially Conservative, and Fiscally Progressive. They are largely FOR gun control, because this area has one of the largest concentrations of black democrats in the state, and literally all of the representatives from this area who are either in state legislatures and the federal legislatre and are democrat ARE black, and God and NO GUNS is a big issue with rank and file Dems in this area as such.And their is little support for civil unions here. They are willing to ignore gays, but they take their religion seriously here about gays.


Thre are gays here, but they are a rather quite group , and keep to themselves, as one young gay man I know has told me.

The elderly Dems her are pissed at him for saying Graham was too old to run for president.

I am surprised that the NRA supports Dean as he is so good at shooting himself in the foot.

[bearfartinthewoods]

69. bingo

everyone should be able to get it theway you put it.

[UTUSN]

62. How 'bout Basing Vote on a CLUE? n/t

[gauguin57]

74. YO! We're not saying the guy is WRONG.

Obviously, we agree with what Dean is telling Southern voters. But the point of CAMPAIGNING is to WIN votes. I guarantee that saying this stuff IN THIS WAY is NOT going to win him anything in the South. It'll just piss people off south of the Mason-Dixon, and make them think he's a self-righteous Northern elitist who thinks they're a bunch of Philistine hillbillies ... and that he knows best about how they should think and vote.

As people pointed out earlier in this thread, there are way better ways of saying this if you want to win.

And one doesn't have to be some right-winger to think Dean should resculpt his rhetoric a wee bit!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. In other words:

"It's the economy, stupid!"

[bluestateguy]

76. Bill Clinton and Al Gore would not have said something so stupid

And Clinton won 5 southern states in 1992 and 1996 (Georgia in 1992, Florida in 1996).

[caledesi]

78. How to get through to the fundies...yes Howard, you are right. nt

[cosmicdot]

79. challenging the so-called Bush constintuency head on

is a strategy worthy of trying ...

plus, the guilt trip it throws to some people with consciences ...

it seems it would shake things up a bit ...

George and Dick expect timidity with voters they think are in their pocket.

It's the economic issues and healthcare and such where common ground can be found.

[CMT]

81. good speech and he should repeat it over and over

in the south.

[bushisanidiot]

83. Dean Is Hitting Repukes Where It Hurts

Repukes rely on the whites-who-hate-(minorities,gays,anti-gun crowd, pc crowd)-vote.. in otherwords, the moran vote. Repukes don't want these idiots to stop and think about how screwed up their lives are under AWOL's leadership. Dean is saying, hey, stop focusing on those hot-button emotional issues for just a minute and think about whether AWOL has actually DONE anything to make your life better. Dean wants to get these people to focus on the issues and realize they are voting for people who are voting AGAINST them in washington.