Dean's apology was a mistake

[saoirse]

I wish Howard Dean would have just stuck with his previous semi-apology to anyone who was offended by his Confederate flag statement, and left it at that. Nobody with even a smattering of intelligence really believes Dean would ever condone racism - the other candidates were just trying to make political hay. It would have been quickly forgotten.

Now, however, people can point to it as another flip-flop. They can say it just proves that the Democratic party is out of touch with southern white male voters, and beholden to a clique of uber-PC elitists who can't wait to take offense at anything. And it's all the more disappointing because Dean appeared to be making inroads among those white male voters who may have voted for Bush in 2000.

I'm not saying Dean won't recover - it'll likely die down, like everything else. But since I see the race as between Clark and Dean - something I regard as a can't-lose-either-way scenario - I'm disappointed.

[wryter2000]

1. Link please

Without knowing what he said, I have no way of evaluating your post.

TIA

[saoirse]

9. It's the lead story on CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com

[TLM]

28. Yeah that is a bit disapointing....

Although he wasn’t saying anything he didn’t say in his speech yesterday, by saying the comment was a mistake, Dean lends credibility to the baseless attacks the other candidates tried to make. They pushed Dean into a stupid PC corner and he unfortunately took the bait.

What Dean said, he’s been saying for 10 months, and it resonated with a lot of southern and mid-western independents and moderate republicans. While Dean is working hard to bring these groups together, folks like Kerry, Edwards and Sharpton are all trying to benefit by continuing to drive these groups apart and pit them against each other.

Dean was right, he is right… and it is very disappointing to see these other candidates sinking to the level of fomenting racist conflict to try and benefit their own campaigns.


Here's what DEan said today.

"I think I made a mistake," Dean told CNN's Bill Hemmer on "American Morning." Dean also said he is confident his remark won't sink his campaign ship.

"I apologize for it. I think it's time to move on. The people who are most concerned about this are the people who are with us. I think we'll be fine."

But he stressed that "we have to have an open dialogue about race in this country."

[wryter2000]

40. That's not flip-flopping

He was asked about it this morning, and he repeated what he said yesterday.

[TLM]

93. I'm not saying he flip floped... he didn't.

But by backing off the comment he makes the baseless attacks seem a little less baseless.

[Guaranteed]

48. He only apologized for referring to the flag.

He's still keeping with the same strategy, though.
This has become a truly childish issue.

[Hep]

2. You talking about yesterday's speech?

Because some people who had been hurt really liked what it said, and no one thought it was a change of position.

[paulsbc]

3. he said today on Fox

that it was an apology, they asked that direct question, so obviously it is a change of position that what he said was not correct...

[Hep]

7. forgive my being slow on this one

Some people thought yesterday's speech was an apology. I don't know if I call it one or not, but I think it was a great speech that showed his regret for some people not understanding his point while not reversing his stance on the more important point that this discussion needs to take place and will be painful.

It did a lot of good in my semi-urban NC city.

[w13rd0]

4. Agreed that the other candidates were trying to make political hay...

...but some of his supporters requested that he apologize, and he did so. And it's worth noting that he used his apology as an opportunity to once again talk about the real issue, and to get others to talk about it as well.

[Sweetpea]

6. Just like he has made kerry and gephardt accountable to their

iraq vote, he was held accountable too. I think an apology was needed for him to be able to move on from this issus. We have too much arrogance in the White House already. Why not have a president who can see his err, correct and tend to his people?

[CWebster]

44. but the Iraq voters never accepted accountability

did they?

[realFedUp]

5. The speech yesterday- snip

Ok here for your microparsing pleasure , for you to rend asunder and take pieces out of context, is the full transcript of Gov. Deans most recent statement on the Confederate flag dust up.
FULL TRANSCIPT OF CABLE NEWS COVERAGE
Governor Howard Dean, M.D.
Cooper Union – NYC
November 5, 2003

We're at a space today that's rich in our nation’s history, a place where citizens have gathered for more than a century to debate the great issues of the day. From this platform and from this very podium, Abraham Lincoln spoke
nearly 150 years ago as a presidential candidate and when Lincoln came here, he did not shy away from talking about the greatest threat that our republic faced at that time which is the terrible institution of human slavery.

I will not shy away today either. The issue of the confederate flag has become an issue in this presidential race. Let me make this clear. I believe that we have one flag in this country, the flag of the United States of America.
I believe that the flag of the confederate states of America is a painful symbol and reminder of racial injustice and slavery which Lincoln denounced from here over 150 years ago. And I do not condone the use of the flag of the confederate states of America. I do believe that this country needs to engage in a serious discussion about race, and that everyone must participate in that discussion. I started this discussion in a clumsy way.

This discussion will be painful, and I regret the pain that I may have caused either to African-American or southern white voters in the beginning of this discussion. But we need to have this discussion in an honest open way.

We cannot leave any one person behind in this discussion, no matter what their color, no matter where they live. I understand Senator Edwards' concern last night that he not have people from the North to tell people from the South how to run their states. But we all need to understand that we are in this together. And that this will be a difficult and painful discussion, that feelings will be hurt, and what we must do is that people of good will must stay at the table.

If we are ever to vanquish the racism left over from 400 hundred years of slavery and Jim Crow, 40 or 50 years ago, the civil rights movement beginning to see relief from that, we can't think it is over, we must have the dialogue Bill Clinton promised us, we must continue that dialogue, and we must all be at the table, so I say, to those many of the people in the African American community have supported what I have said in the past few days, because they understand, some have not, to those, I deeply regret the pain I have may caused. Many of our white supporters have understood, but to those who do not, I regret the pain that I have caused. I will tell you, there is no easy way to do this. There will be pain as we discuss it, we must face it together. Hand in hand, as Dr. King and Abraham Lincoln asked us to do.

[mandyky]

8. Dean seemed to apologize more for

pain and any hurt feelings than the actual comment. I just hope he quits apologizing and gets back to talking about the issue of racial equality and how to atract southern voters to our party.

[Sweetpea]

12. Yes ...he is a northerner trying to appeal to the South and those

type statements without correction will only hurt.

[karlspur]

10. It doesn't matter if he apologized or not

He still made a racist comment and should pay for it.

[AP]

13. It wasn't a racist statement.

If anything, it was a statement which revealed that, if you care about race, Dean might not be the best candidate for you unless you're a white person who feels like you're the victim of racism.

[Hep]

29. Wow

I find it shameful how cynical some people are, especially in their outward disdain for ONE candidate.

[calimary]

14. Gentle friends and fellow DUers, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

At least consider the following. I read it and was absolutely knocked out by its eloquence. This "Angry Liberal" person makes an EXTREMELY good point. I couldn't have put it better, myself.



http://www.theangryliberal.com/11-06-03.htm


"Better Politically Correct-ed Than Elected"


PLEASE!!! Whether you're a Deanie or not, at least consider it.

[CWebster]

57. thank you, calimary

"...As for the comments made by Al Sharpton and John Edwards about Dean, I recognize cheap political opportunism when I see it. Howard Dean mentioned the Confederate flag without falling to his knees and begging forgiveness for doing so. Instead of defending Dean's completely benign remark, these guys piled on. Good news, guys. George W. Bush can save some of his campaign war chest this week. You've done as much damage to the Democratic cause as Bush's henchmen could have hoped to. If you listen closely, you can hear Bush's people laughing at you. As for me, I'm just trying to keep my dinner down.

Dr. Dean, here's a little advice: Remember your bedside manner. Don't apologize for anything in the future, even if it is a real gaff. It makes you look weak and un-presidential. To every candidate who took a shot at Dean over his remarks, you had better decide whether you would risk four more years of George W. Bush in the White House just to finish ahead of Howard Dean in a couple of primaries...."

[Rowdyboy]

68. Calimary

Thank you for that link. I laughed several times! This person has it pegged...I agree 1000%. He just said it better that I could have.

[saoirse]

15. How was the comment racist?

First of all, having a Confederate flag on your vehicle does not automatically make you a racist - didn't you ever watch "The Dukes of Hazzard?"

Funny how it wasn't an issue back then.

And accusing Dean of making a racist comment for saying he wanted to be the candidate for those people, well, even a high school rhetoric student could recognize that as the logical fallacy called a non-sequitur.

I guess I will allow that Dean's comment does reveal that he wants to be the candidate for people with bad taste in automobile decoration, though.:)

[AP]

20. I definitely wouldn't say the Dukes of Hazard is a model of the racial...

...ideal.

I didn't watch the show, but, wasn't it totally devoid of black characters? You know how Andy Grifith was set in the south and you never saw an black characters?

Anyone think it's strange that a show set in the south didn't have any black characters?

[Eloriel]

16. Not a very auspicious first post, Karl

Nor a very well-informed one. Here's the language Dean has used again and again and again in stump speeches all over the country:

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

Eloriel

[karlspur]

17. Yes it is a racist comment

He wants to be the man for the people who lynch negroes. Sorry my friends but he is no different then David Duke.

[AP]

24. You sound more like a Dean supporter who wants people to think

that criticism of this issue is absurd.

It's absolutely absurd to equate Dean's comment with anything David Duke says. It totally demeans the real issues here.

There are plenty of things you can criticize Dean about if race is your concern. Equating this comment with "lynching" isn't even remotely close to one of those issues.

[karlspur]

26. I didn't say his comments were lynching

He wants to be for the people who DO lynch people. He wants to garner KKK votes.

[AP]

33. invoking lynching and david duke

in your criticism is, perhaps, the equivalent of Dean invoking the confederate flag in his attempt to discuss class.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dean were trying to appeal to instincts other than people's finest, but I wouldn't equit Dean himself with David Duke, or anything Duke says. By defining them as equal, you make the things Duke says much less serious than they really are.

You need a sense of proportionality if you're going to debate this honestly.

[karlspur]

35. I meant to say

Dean wants to be the man that someone like David Duke would vote for. He wants to garner KKK votes and other hate group votes. If that is not simple for you to understand then I don't know what is.

[Hep]

41. It's not simple

because it's wrong, and its hurtful and mean spirited. And there;s no way that you can honestly make that statement when Dean has gone out of his way to clarify his statement.

Your hatred is right out for everyone to see. Just like bigotry it's senseless, based in fallacy, offensive, and unrepentant.

I'm incredibly bothered by your display. I'm sorry to say it, and I'm trying to be as respectful as I can.

[karlspur]

52. Your comment provided no substance or facts

So I have no need to reply to it.

[Hep]

56. LOL

Yet you replied? Thanks for letting me know you posted without reason!

[AP]

46. No you didn't say that.

You said "he is no different/better (can't remember) than David Duke."

You were equating what he did with David Duke.

Like I said, if you want to debate this honestly, you can't exaggerate.

There are plenty of good reasons to be offended by this. You mitigate the effectiveness of the serious arguments by making this argument.

I'm not saying you're far off the mark. I'm just saying that you're off the mark.

[karlspur]

53. I know what I said

But what I meant to say was different. Debate the stuff I said in post #35.

[Hep]

60. Please pay attention

she was replying to post 35.

[karlspur]

66. I am

But she focused on one sentance of post #35, I want to get beyond whether I said David Duke=Howard Dean and I want to debate the meat of what I said in post #35. You pay attention.

[Hep]

72. I'm paying attention

I can clearly how some people hate Dean enough thatthey will insult entire groups of people in their attacks. The good thing about abroad brush is that you're more likely to pain what you are trying to paint. But look at all the people you painted unintentionally with your hateful words.

[karlspur]

Hatefull words?

I am NOT sorry I offended racist confederate flag wavers.

[Hep]

75. Now you are changing your words

You said that confederate flag wavers are racists. Is that true? Is that ALL? You'd might want to edit previous posts.

[karlspur]

78. I didn't change my words

I said all along that racists=confederate flag wavers. If they are not racists then why do you not see African-Americans wave confederate flags?

[Hep]

82. sl

That logic is weak and you know it. Address the real isue, please. Are you saying EVERYONE with a confederate flag is a racist? Are you really, as an apparent liberal, making that kind of generalization?

[karlspur]

86. Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hep]

89. Then you're no better than they are

Have a nice day.

[TLM]

99. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! And Hep scores another...

How many little troll decals do you have painted on the side of your fighter jet, Hep?



I still notice that nobody can answer my question about the US flag.

If the confederate flag represents the racism and lynching in the south and therefore anybody who flies it is a racist... then does that also mean that the US flag represents the racism and genocide against the native Americans and therefore anybody who flies it hate native Americans and supports the genocide?

[Hep]

108. I'm the red baron!

How many little troll decals do you have painted on the side of your fighter jet, Hep?

I'm just out to prove that you can't beat truth. I don't believe in the "heritage nothate" movement because I see it as fundamentally flawed, but there are people who really believe in that. How can I ignore their existence?

[TLM]

90. Yes you did... here are you exact words...

First you defend your racist use of the term negro...

"Even Harry Truman used the phrase "negroes" but let me explain it to you like a 4 year old."


Then you said all confederate flag wavers are racists...

"Southerner does not equal confederate flag wavers. Confederate flag waver=racist."


Then you restated that biggoted position against southern folks...

" Dean wants the people who have confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks to vote for him, thus he wants racists to vote for him."


Did you forget your words are saved in the thread?

[karlspur]

96. God

I didn't change my words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never denied it!!!! All confederate flag wavers are racists, I won't deny it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TLM]

101. So then this brother is a racist?

[karlspur]

103. The confederate flag is a racist symbol

He probaly doesn't realize that but the NAACP does.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) says it will not lift its longstanding tourism boycott against the state despite the bill's success in the Senate, because an alternative plan placing the battle flag on the front lawn of the capitol is not acceptable to the organization.

The NAACP boycott against the state has been in effect since January.

Most African-American state senators had hoped to remove he flag from the capitol grounds altogether, but agreed to the compromise. Confederate heritage supporters also had to compromise. Many had said they would never have allowed the flag to be moved at all.



http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/04/13/sc.flag/

[TLM]

110. You said all confederate flag wavers are racists...

that man is waving a confederate flag... therefore he is either a racist or you are wrong.

Which is it?


"He probaly doesn't realize that..."

Oh so he's just a poor ignorant "negro" who needs to be told what to think... and you're accusing others of being racist?

Disgusting.

[karlspur]

113. You accuse those comments of being racist?

He doesn't realize that the confederate flag is a racist symbol so that's racism? The NAACP a prominent institution with with prominent black leaders realize the Confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry and so did the Reverend Al Sharpton, now it is my turn to twist your comments into racism.

Oh so Al Sharpton and the NAACP are just poor ignorant "negros" who needs to be told what to think?

[TLM]

126. WHat is racist is that you assume this man is ignorant...

not that he simply doesn;t agree with your biggoted single minded interprataion.


"Oh so Al Sharpton and the NAACP are just poor ignorant "negros" who needs to be told what to think?"


Nope, they simply have their own opinion... they disagree and feel the flag is ONLY a symbol of racism. I think they are wrong, and more than a little politically motivated to maintain their singular position.

Next?

[Hep]

119. One of those two guys

used to be a leader in the NAACP.

You said ALL confederate flag wavers are racists.

So why do tyou think he is a bigot?

[TLM]

128. LOL!!! Even better....

So this guys says the former head of the NAACP is a racist for flying the confederate flag.

LOL!

[karlspur]

131. He was the head of the Ashville chapter of the NAACP

Not necessarily head of the whole institution. The NAACP itself called for tourism boycotts to South Carolina and asked that the confederate flag be removed from display from it's state capitol buildings.

[Hep]

138. Say it please

Please either call this man a bigot or amend your earlier statements.

[Hep]

133. Our friend

Karl (with a K) didn't read the link I provided. He's flying the flag to protest the suspension of a kid for refusing to remove the flag from his bumper.

I don't know about you, but I'm for free speech.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

140. Actually

lynching isn't free speech, and cross burnings are fine as long as the bigots do it on their own property, which of course they never do.

I get the feeling that you're just being offensive and hateful for the sake of being offensive and hateful. I've already proven you wrong, and now you just lash out.

[karlspur]

142. Once you again you have provided no facts or substance

So I am not going to respond. Btw I am not being offensive and hatefull your support of the confederate flag is.

[Hep]

159. This is exactly the problem

Btw I am not being offensive and hatefull your support of the confederate flag is.

You are confusing my support for some people who fly the flag as support for the flag. That's reprehensible.

[Hep]

104. Generalizations

are wrong and hurtful. I'm sorry that you can't realize the truth, that there are misguided people who buy into the notion that the flag can represent something other than hate. I don't agree with the notion, but I simply can't deny that there are people who subscribe to it.

Why you've never met such a person living in the south is a mystery to me. Either way, it is unfair to apply your somewhat ignorant world view to another person's comments. I would wish that everyone on the left knew that, but apparently I have to live with bigots on my side of the fence too.

[karlspur]

115. I am NOT sorry I offended racist confederate flag wavers

eom

[Hep]

121. Are you sorry you offended

me?

[karlspur]

123. If you are a confederate flag waver

Then no I am not sorry.

[Hep]

127. You aren't answering my question

I don't wave a confederate flag, but I'm offended by your narrow minded perception and stereotype. Are you sorry?

[karlspur]

129. Then you shouldn't offended

If you are not a confederate flag waver.

[Hep]

160. That's wrong

I think it would be funny if I tried to tell black folks that they shouldn't be offended by the C flag.

You don't get to decide what offends me and what doesn't. And frankly, I think I'm perfectly right to be offended that you call some of my friends BIGOTS without ever having met them.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

84. Your use of the term negro was quite racist...

A window into your true feelings I suspect... perhaps the reason you're so threatened by Dean wanting to bring blacks and white together.

[karlspur]

85. Ok whatever

My use of the term was not racist. I guess Harry Truman was racist because he used the phrase quite often but he desegragated the military and introduced a civil rights package to congress.

[TLM]

105. Truman used the term 50 years ago...

You used it today, and it was racist.

[karlspur]

109. I know african americans who call each other the Ni**er word

Are they racist? Negro is not a racist term, talk about political correctness.

[TLM]

112. LOL! "Negro is not a racist term" LOL!!! Did you just say that?

You accuse Dean of beig a racist because he wants to bring blacks and whites together... yet you not a racist for refering to blacks as negros?


LOL! Looks like it might be time to alert the mods.

[karlspur]

114. It isn't racist

Dictionary term.

1. A Black person. See Usage Note at black.
2. A member of the Negroid race. Not in scientific use.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Negro

Alert the mods all you want, what I said had no racism in it, I am anything but a racist person.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karlspur]

141. Your post provided no substance or facts

But I am going to respond. I only refer to african americans as negroes sometimes, notice it was only in 1 post. You know I can twist your "brothers" comments as racism, not all black people are a "group of brothers". And yes they don't mind, but It's not ok for me to use the phrase negroes but yet african americans all over this country refer to each other as ni**as. I am attacking Dean for wanting the racist voters to vote for him not for him wanting to unite black and white.

Face it, you slipped up troll, and let your true colors show.

Oh really, what colors am I? Am I rainbow colors? :)

[TLM]

146. Oh so you're only racist sometimes.....

" I only refer to african americans as negroes sometimes, notice it was only in 1 post."

Oh well then, since you only sometimes say racist things...



"You know I can twist your "brothers" comments as racism, not all black people are a "group of brothers"."

You can try, but you just look stupider than you already look for trying to defend your use of the term negro.


"And yes they don't mind, but It's not ok for me to use the phrase negroes but yet african americans all over this country refer to each other as ni**as."

Sounds like you're upset you can;t call them that as well as calling them negros.


"I am attacking Dean for wanting the racist voters to vote for him not for him wanting to unite black and white."

You are attacking him for wanting to bring blacks and whites together, because that's what he said. He wants those confederate flag folks to stop letting republicans divide them by race and come together to support their shared goals of healthcare and good schools.

Keep trying.

[karlspur]

147. Your are so narrow minded it is unbelievable

Refering to a group of african americans as a "group of brothers" can be deemed racist. But what I said was not racist, I guess Harry Truman was racist too? Please no african american was every mad at me when I would jokingly say "hey whats up negro!"

You are attacking him for wanting to bring blacks and whites together, because that's what he said. He wants those confederate flag folks to stop letting republicans divide them by race and come together to support their shared goals of healthcare and good schools.

No I am not, I am attacking Dean for trying to be the man the racists vote for. Your backpeddling is funny.

[TLM]

167. You're the one calling blacks negros...

"But what I said was not racist, I guess Harry Truman was racist too?"

Truman used the term used the term 50 years ago... you used it today. Stop trying to hide your disgusting comments behind Truman like a coward who can not face his own words in the here and now.


"Please no african american was every mad at me when I would jokingly say "hey whats up negro!"

I think you're lying.

"No I am not, I am attacking Dean for trying to be the man the racists vote for. Your backpeddling is funny."

It is not backpedaling to point out the part fo Dean's statement you purposfuly left out to prop up your ignorant ditribe. Dean has said this over and over again for the last 10 months, that he wants to reach out to the folks with the confederate flag sticker and bring them together with blacks to vote for their shared goals, to work together and stop being divided by race.

He said it again at the rock the vote debate... but you continue to ignore it as you ignore all things that do not support you lies and attacks. Try harder troll, this is too easy.


"I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I'm the only person here that signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same rights .

"What I discovered is that the fear of people who opposed that bill, the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance. We have to reach out to every American. We don't have to embrace the confederate flag and I never suggested we do. We have to reach out to all disenfranchised people. Robert Kennedy brought people together. Jesse Jackson did it. We're going to bring people together in this country. I understand the confederate flag is a loathesome symbol, just as I understood the anti-gay slurs I had to put up with after I signed that bill were loathesome. If we don't reach out to every American we can't win. I've had enough of campaigns based on fear, I want a campaign based on hope." -- Howard Dean, Rock the Vote Forum, Boston, 11/4/03

[MercutioATC]

107. You accuse Dean of racism but it's o.k. for you to say "negro"?

By the way, the Burlington Country Club is not a "whites-only" club and the Deans aren't members even if it were.

Kind of takes some wind out of that whole tirade you threw on multiple threads earlier, doesn't it.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

178. We should be talking to the KKK

Who are they? Disenfranchised white folks who wrongly blame disenfranchised black folks for their problems. On the day that we get the white trailer park voters to understand that they're really being screwed by the white corporate boardroom voters, then the Democratic Party will be a true majority -- and race relations in this country will improve.

[karlspur]

36. I meant to say

Dean wants to be the man that someone like David Duke would vote for. He wants to garner KKK votes and other hate group votes. If that is not simple for you to understand then I don't know what is.

[MercutioATC]

117. Duke and the KKK...you mean people who use the word "negro"?

THOSE kinds of racists?

[karlspur]

120. The people who use the term ni**er

and lynch people. There is a much larger difference in your narrow minded view.

[MercutioATC]

125. You DO realize that you posted lies about Dean to imply he was racist

and then used the word "negro" yourself, right?

You're accusing ME of narrow-minded views?

[karlspur]

135. Your post provided no substance or facts

So I feel no need to reply.

[MercutioATC]

139. Fact : You posted blatant lies about Dean (see body of message)

Your post:

His son is a thief! He was driving the get away car while his gang members stole liquor from his father's exclusive, no blacks allowed, country club. So leave him alone! He is not a common drunk, he is an upper crust country club bratwurst theif


The fact is that the Deans do not belong to the Burlington Country Club and that even if they did, it's not a "no blacks allowed" club.

That's substance AND fact in my book. What, specifically don't you feel qualifies?

[workenstiff]

176. Please shut up

Have you ever been to the south? It is not 1960 anymore.

[Newcastle]

177. You might want to check out

the top 10 conservative idiots for this week. You could even go back many weeks and see that white men from the South are amply represented. The South is far more reactionary than the rest of the country. Even the Democrats from the South tend to be more conservative. Isn't Zell Miller a Southerner?

[TLM]

18. WHat exactly was racist about his comment?

Please fully quote the comment and point out exactly what was racist.


I'll bet you can't do it.

[karlspur]

19. Here you go

Racist comment
"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

My response
I understand, he wants to be the man of the people who lynch negroes, he wants to be the man that David Duke votes for.

[Hep]

23. Wow

Thanks for sharing your own prejudiced view of southerners.

[w13rd0]

25. Well, that should make prosecution of hate crimes a breeze!

Just arrest everyone who drives a pickup with a confederate flag decal on charges of "lynching negroes". No, no one would ever accuse you of being bombastic and using far-flung hyperbole. Never ever...

Oh, and David Duke needs more than health care and an education, he needs a team of lawyers. I don't think Dean's advocating free lawyers for David Duke, is he?

[karlspur]

30. If you understand what Dean meant you should understand what I mean

Dean made those comments basically saying he wants racists to vote for democrats, not republicans. Not all southerners drive pick-up trucks and wave confederate flags so he did not mean he wanted to garner southern votes. Here is what I meant, Dean wants to garner votes of KKK voters and confederate sympathizers as well as other Hate groups.

[Hep]

32. Your posts show that

not only do you have no idea what Dean was talking about, but that you have the most skewed view of southerners that I have ever seen.

[karlspur]

39. What is my view of southerners?

I live in the south, most southerners are not confederate flag wavers and pick up drivers no matter how much your hero Dean would like you to believe. The confederate flag wavers are racists, not all southerners are racists, Dean wants to be the man that the RACISTS vote for. If that is so hard for you to understand then I don't know what is.

[Hep]

49. You live in the south?

Where in the south do you live? I have NEVER in the 19 years that I have lived here seen ANYONE in the south claim that C Flag wavers are all racists, because EVERY southerner I know KNOWS people who have the flag on their truck or shirt, and we all KNOW that a lot of these people are NOT racist.

They subscribe to the MISGUIDED notion that it stands for heritage, not hate. They are WRONG, not BIGOTS. And I'm deeply offended that you would stoop so low as to call some of MY friends, whom you have never met, racists.

Dean isn't the one with the problem. Look in the mirror.

[karlspur]

54. I live in Legion, Alabama

I know confederate flag wavers who happen to be KKK members. If you don't think the Confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry you clearly have been living under a box. He wants to garner to bigot's votes, it is that simple.

[Hep]

73. It's not about what I think

You have stated that people with the flag are bigots, and I know it's not true. No one in Legion, Alabama has ever heard the phrase "heritage not hate" apparently.

[karlspur]

83. Yes they are

[Hep]

91. You're wrong

It's kind of sad. I thought it was just the right wing who make sweeping generalizations. Forgive me if I don't go tell Phil, a friend of mine of seven years that he's a bigot despite all the work he has done helping people in the black community.

[TLM]

59. Oh you are trying so hard, and it just isn't floating...

"I live in the south, most southerners are not confederate flag wavers and pick up drivers no matter how much your hero Dean would like you to believe."

First lie... Dean never said anything about ALL southerners having confederate flags or pick ups. Thanks for playing.


"The confederate flag wavers are racists, not all southerners are racists, Dean wants to be the man that the RACISTS vote for."


Second lie... A hell of a lot of southerners and mid-westerners have confederate flags and are not racist at all. Many have the flags as a symbol of the south, as a symbol of anti-federal government feelings, and as a symbol of rebelion.

Dean wants poor working class southern white who have been voting republican against their own best interests, to vote democratic. Sure some of these folks are racists, and Dean wants them to put aside their racial differences and come together with blacks to support their shared goals of good schools and healthcare.

So tell me exactly what is racist about wanting to bring black folks and white folks together to work for a common shared good instead of continuing to be divided by race?

[karlspur]

69. I know

First lie... Dean never said anything about ALL southerners having confederate flags or pick ups. Thanks for playing.

I made that point earlier see If you know what Dean meant you will know what I meant.

"The confederate flag wavers are racists, not all southerners are racists, Dean wants to be the man that the RACISTS vote for."

The confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry, it is not a lie it is the truth and your hero Dean admitted it himself. Howcome you don't see any black southerners with confederate flags on their pickup trucks, it is dumb to think otherwise. Dean wants to get the votes of white males who have confederate flag decals on their trucks thus means he wants the racist people to vote for him.

[TLM]

80. You're just reapeating you spew, not debating you claims...

Though I didn't expect you to do anything but disrupt...

"The confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry, it is not a lie it is the truth and your hero Dean admitted it himself."


Once again open your eyes and try real hard to comprehend this... any symbol can have more than one meaning. Yes the confederate flag is used by many as a symbol of their racist views... as it is used by many as a symbol of their anti-government views, or rebel views, or their pride in the south.

To say the confederate flag is ONLY a racist symbol, with no other meaning and that all those who fly the flag do so because they are racist is a stupid and bigoted statement. Like saying anybody who flies the US flag does so because they hate native Americans and support the genocide against the native Americans that the US flag represents.



"Dean wants to get the votes of white males who have confederate flag decals on their trucks thus means he wants the racist people to vote for him. "


It means he wants poor working class southern whites who vote republican, some of whom very certianly are racists, to put aside their racist views and come to gether with blacks to vote for their shared goals of healthcare and good schools.

You keep ignoring that part. Why are you ignoring the part about blacks and white coming together over shared goals?

[karlspur]

95. Yours posts are so long I don't try to respond to everything you say

But yes white males and african americans can unite behind something called the American flag, not the confederate flag. The confederate flag has many meanings but only racists wave the confederate flag, why are so many african americans involved in the movement of having the confederate flag removed once and for all. I have much pride in the south but not once did I wave the confederate flag and so many southerners understand that the confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry, hatred, and racism.

About my second sentance

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) says it will not lift its longstanding tourism boycott against the state despite the bill's success in the Senate, because an alternative plan placing the battle flag on the front lawn of the capitol is not acceptable to the organization.

The NAACP boycott against the state has been in effect since January.

Most African-American state senators had hoped to remove he flag from the capitol grounds altogether, but agreed to the compromise. Confederate heritage supporters also had to compromise. Many had said they would never have allowed the flag to be moved at all.

Not all senators were on board when debate opened on Wednesday evening.
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/04/13/sc.flag/

So I am glad many african americans realize it is a racist symbol.

[TLM]

116. You still can;t answer my simple question...

"But yes white males and african americans can unite behind something called the American flag, not the confederate flag."


If the confederate flag is a symbol of the racism and lynchings in the south and everybody who flies it is a racist... then doesn't the US flag represent the slaughter of the native american people, and therefore anybody who flies it is racist and supports the genocide commited against the native people of this country?

It is the same argument.

[karlspur]

122. Your are so damn confused

You are comparing anvils to oranges. Old Glory means freedom, happiness, etc. The Confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry, hatred, and racism. It doesn't matter what happened under either flag, it is what the flag means. You don't ever see any native american groups calling for Old Glory to be removed from state capitols.

[TLM]

145. Explain how one is racist and one is not....

"Old Glory means freedom, happiness, etc. The Confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry, hatred, and racism."


You have a clear double standard.

What makes the stars and bars racist, if not the things that took place under it? You say the flag represents hate and bigotry... yet the same hate and bigotry was in pace long before the stars and bars was made... in fact the US flag has flown over far more horrendous human rights violations perpetrated by the government it symbolized.


So how is it that the atrocities of the south are tied to the flag of the south, yet the atrocities of the US are not tied to the US flag?

Can you answer this question or not?


"It doesn't matter what happened under either flag, it is what the flag means."

What defines what a flag means, if not what happens under it? Isn;t the Nazi flag defined by what the Nazi's did?


"You don't ever see any native american groups calling for Old Glory to be removed from state capitols."

That because most of them are dead or on reservations.

[karlspur]

150. There are over 2 million native americans

There are enough of them to make noise and they are not offended by Old Glory because old glory is not a racist flag, you are using strawmen arguments and comparing apples to anvils. The confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry and even your hero Howard Dean admitted it.

[TLM]

158. If it so clear cut, why can;t you answer the question?

This is no straw man argument... I am asking you to lay out a consistant logical standard for how meaning is attached to a flag.

You can not, because you position is based on bullshit and double standards.


Why can't you lay out your standards for critical evaluation? Why is the confederate flag a racist symbol? What defined it's meaning as such?

[karlspur]

161. I already answered

There is simple meanings, old glory means happiness, freedom, etc. but the confederate flag means bigotry, hatred, and racism (even Dean would agree). When you are in the middle of combat and you wave the white flag it means you surrender. If you don't understand that I wouldn't be surprised because you have difficult time understanding what I say.

[TLM]

168. You can't answer the question... you only repeat your opinion.

Yet you can not lay out an objective standard for how a flag gets meaning.

"There is simple meanings, old glory means happiness, freedom, etc. but the confederate flag means bigotry, hatred, and racism (even Dean would agree)."

You still have no answered the question HOW is a flag's meaning defined, if not by the things which happen under the flag or the thing the nation the flag represent does?


"When you are in the middle of combat and you wave the white flag it means you surrender."

Yes and in the middle of combat both the old glory and the stars and bars were representitive banners for their respective armies, so following that combat definition of flag meaning, both flags mean nothing more than a representation of their region, union and confederacy respectively. Thanks for admitting that the confederate fag, like old glory, does in fact have multiple meanings.

You've still not answered my question.


" If you don't understand that I wouldn't be surprised because you have difficult time understanding what I say."

Your insults do not answer my question either, they simply make you look that much stupider. Come on now, you claim the meanings are so clear so why can’t you provide a consistently applicable standard for how a flag's meaning is determined? Are you just going to run and cry and continue to ignore the question you can’t answer?

[w13rd0]

43. All your votes are belonging to Dean...

...read that article posted someone posted above, then get back to us. Until then, let me just say that you have a fascinating point of view. The conclusions one could jump to using your form of logic are astonishing. "...they should be voting with us, because they need health insurance and a good education too." Racism is a product of ignorance. It's also generational. A good education can reduce the cycle of racism and poverty that keep racists stupid. What's wrong with offering them the opportunity to take a baby step toward unstupidfying them? Yes, I made that word up, you deserve it.

[TLM]

42. Clearly YOURS is the racist comment...

Since you assume all folks in the south who have a confederate flag in their car have lynched black folks or are members of the KKK, you expose a clearly racist standard. Like saying every black dude wearing Raiders parka is a gangbanger or crack dealer.

And your choice of the term negroes, makes it rather clear which way your opinions lean when you're not putting on false pretenses to disrupt message boards. Sounds a lot like something Rush would say.


And you were unable to point out anything specificaly racist in Dean's statment. All you did was exprese your own racist opinion is response to it.

[karlspur]

50. Oh please

Even Harry Truman used the phrase "negroes" but let me explain it to you like a 4 year old. Southerner does not equal confederate flag wavers. Confederate flag waver=racist. Dean wants the people who have confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks to vote for him, thus he wants racists to vote for him.

[TLM]

71. You are not Harry Truman... and this is 2003.

Your use of the term negro was racist.

"Southerner does not equal confederate flag wavers."

Dean didn't say they did. Next?


"Confederate flag waver=racist."

Or rebel, or anti-federal government, or pro south.

Tell me something, when you fly the US flag out of pride in the United States, does that mean you support the genocide against native Americans and the history of oppression of blacks and women, which was institutional policy when the flag was first made?

I mean if the confederate flag is a racist symbol because it represents the history of slavery and lynching in the south... then you must also feel the US flag is a racist symbol as well that represents the history of the slaughter of millions of native Americans.




"Dean wants the people who have confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks to vote for him, thus he wants racists to vote for him."

He wants those folks who have been split of by the republican southern strategy to come back, stop being divided by race, and join with blacks to support shared goals of healthcare and good schools.

How is that racist?

Dr. King said he wanted sons of slave owners and sons of slaves to sit together at the table of brotherhood, but I guess he's just another racist to you for wanting those sons of slave owners at the table, right?

[karlspur]

81. My use of the word negro was not racist

I am not a racist person and I will not vote for Dean because he wants racists to vote for him.

I mean if the confederate flag is a racist symbol because it represents the history of slavery and lynching in the south... then you must also feel the US flag is a racist symbol as well that represents the history of the slaughter of millions of native Americans.

The confederate flag is a racist symbol, I challenge you to find me one picture of an African American waving the confederate flag. Sure Old Glory was the flag when that stuff happened but the US flag means happiness, freedom, etc. The confederate flag means bigotry, hatred, racism. You are comparing anvils to oranges, it is the meaning of the flag, not what happened when the flag was raised.

[Hep]

88. Fine. I'll be more than happy

to prove you to be the one making stereotypical, narrow minded statements:

http://www.heraldsun.com/person/12-408990.html

Black man supports Confederate flag in march

H.K. Edgerton, a political activist and former president of the Asheville chapter of the NAACP, acknowledged them and launched into a passionate rhetoric in defense of the Confederate flag and race relations in the South.



Now will you please amend your hateful statements?

[karlspur]

98. wow one or two black men out of several million

The NAACP an instutition of a black people called for the confederate flag to be removed dozens of times, they even called for tourism boycotts to South Carolina.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) says it will not lift its longstanding tourism boycott against the state despite the bill's success in the Senate, because an alternative plan placing the battle flag on the front lawn of the capitol is not acceptable to the organization.

The NAACP boycott against the state has been in effect since January.

Most African-American state senators had hoped to remove he flag from the capitol grounds altogether, but agreed to the compromise. Confederate heritage supporters also had to compromise. Many had said they would never have allowed the flag to be moved at all.


http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/04/13/sc.flag/

[Hep]

124. You're changing up again, please stop

wow one or two black men out of several million

You're making a fool of yourself. This is what you said:

"I challenge you to find me one picture of an African American waving the confederate flag."

And I came through. When are you going to admit being wrong?

Note: The guy holding the flag was a leader in the NAACP.

[karlspur]

132. Ok you proved me wrong

But 98% of African Americans find the confederate flag to be offensive.

[TLM]

148. You are trying so hard....

The NAACP wants the flag not to be flown by the state... which is not the same as saying every individual who flies it is a racsit, as you ignorantly claimed.


No go crawl back under your bridge.

[karlspur]

152. rotlmfao

No go crawl back under your bridge?

ok I'll do that, thanks for the laugh, I really needed it especially in this heated debate.

[Hep]

163. That's not the topic

I know that most black people find the flag offensive. That's not what you've been saying all along. All along you've been saying that ALL people who support the flag are racist. It is just NOT true. And it's unfair. And it trivializes the issue, which is even MORE offensive to me. This isn't a serious debate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Karl, while I HATED Dean invoking the confederate flag to make his point

It is very CLEAR he did NOT mean that but that his comments could LEAVE people believing he meant that which is why I felt he was wrong to do so since that flag is a PAINFUL suggestion of such.

What HE meant is that BOTH parties suffer because of CLASS not race which is a race/class issue and why we must be ever vigilant to distinguish RACE issues from RACISM issues. What Dean DID was muddy the distinctions using the confederate flag as an example.

I think he sees that. I think he was MADE to see that by some of his advocates, and I think THAT is why he apologized.

[blm]

153. nsma, Dean's comments were in defense of his NRA support, not race

He LIED when he said he was trying to start a discussion about race. This article is ALL about the NRA and gun control, not about race.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

>>>>>>>

[TLM]

171. BLM, Dean has been saying this thing for 10 months...

and he's been talking about race and undermining the southern strategy by bringing blacks and whites together on shared goals like healthcare and education for just as long.

So as ususal you're despearte spin to support Kerry is dishonest and wrong. Dean was talking about race and bringing people together.

Here's a quote from back in feb....

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

Kerry is just desperate to try and spin off any attack on Dean no matter how baseless because he is losing.

[RetroLounge]

97. What a moronic comment

I'll sit and watch for your tombstone...

[karlspur]

136. Are you still waiting?

eom

[TLM]

175. Nope....

:hi:

[Hep]

22. prove it

please explain in detail how his comment was racist.

[karlspur]

27. Here you go

Racist comment
"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

My response
I understand, he wants to be the man of the people who lynch negroes, he wants to be the man that David Duke votes for.

[Hep]

31. I responded to this elsewhere

this post reflected more your own prejudice regarding southerners than anyone else's. I'm more offended by your comment than Dean's.

[w13rd0]

34. I too am offended by his comment...

...I insist he apologize.

[Hep]

38. I don't want an apology

I want to know why he thinks that confederate flag on pickup = lynch.

I wouldn't accept an apology if it were offered. It's just sad how some people stereotype southerners.

[karlspur]

45. Dean is the one who stereotyped southerners

As confederate flag wavers and pick up truck drivers. I hope I can explain this in ways you can understand. Confederate flag waver=racist, not southerner even though most confederate flag wavers happen to be southerners. Dean wants to be the man that racists(confederate flag wavers, not southerners) vote for. I am a southernor, I live in Legion, Alabama and yes I am not a confederate flag waver nor a pickup truck driver.

[Hep]

55. Dean used a literary device

And this is the second time dean bashers have shown their utter ingnorance of literary devices.

First, it was a simile "congress will scurry like cockroaches" Dean bashers got their panties all waded up claiming that Dean called the people in congress cockroaches. Complete lack of knowledge of simile right there.

Now it's imagery. Dean used the image of the southerner with the confederate flag on his pickup to illustrate a person who votes republican against his best interests. I think it's fair to say that most southerners with C Flags on their pickups vote R. I'm willing to bet my life savings on it after my experience at the NC state fair, where the R party was slapping C Flag stickers on everyone that passed by.

Dean was never generalizing because he wasn't talking about ALL southerners. He was talking about rural southern white folks who vote Republican when they would be better serving their needs by voting democratic. This message is only lost on a few groups of people, Dean Bashers being the most pathetic.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

70. You're right

Dean is not a bigot but why can't his fans be honest and admit he was courting racists? We all know if a Republican said this we wouldn't be giving him or her a free pass.

[karlspur]

76. Finally someone understands what I mean

Howard Dean basically said he wants to garner racist's votes.

[Hep]

92. Yes you two can go to your anti-southerner meeting together

Have fun.

[karlspur]

100. Ok whatever?

I guess the NAACP are anti-southern

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) says it will not lift its longstanding tourism boycott against the state despite the bill's success in the Senate, because an alternative plan placing the battle flag on the front lawn of the capitol is not acceptable to the organization.

The NAACP boycott against the state has been in effect since January.

Most African-American state senators had hoped to remove he flag from the capitol grounds altogether, but agreed to the compromise. Confederate heritage supporters also had to compromise. Many had said they would never have allowed the flag to be moved at all.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/04/13/sc.flag/

[_Jumper_]

111. Think about it

Dean has said the flag is a racist. He wants the votes of those that display it. Therefore, Dean wants the votes of racists.

[karlspur]

118. Thank you

At least he/she understands. Howard Dean himself admitted that the confederate flag is a symbol of bigotry.

[Hep]

130. Your logic is

like that of a five year old. If you are going to quote Dean, QUOTE DEAN, don't paraphrase.

Not everyone who flies the confederate flag is racist. The flag is a divisive symbol, but not everyone who flies it understands that. There are large groups of people who actually believe that it is a symbol of heritage. These people are not racist, they just don't understand the damage that the symbol does.

Now, understanding that, are you saying these people ARE racist, not just misguided. Are you really prepared to stereotype all of a group people like that?

[_Jumper_]

143. The issue is Dean, not those people

Dean has said the flag is racist and who wants the votes of those that display it. Therefore, in Dean's view, he is courting racists. Just substitute "Swastika" for "Confederate flag" and you should understand that Dean was courting bigots.

"Ths swastika is bigoted, but I want to votes of those that have it on their pickup truck."

Let's stop this hero worship. None of the candidates is perfect. They all want the votes of racists but only one of them admitted it.

[karlspur]

144. You explained it much more simplier terms then I could

I am surprised only one person understands what I mean but I guess I am not stating my position clearly enough.

[TLM]

154. Again ignore the fact Dean said he wants to bring these whites together

with blacks to vote for their shared goals, and to stop being divided by the racist southern strategy.

You folks can't seem to remember that part.


Following your logic Dr. King was a racist for saying he wants sons of slave OWNERS to join sons of slaves at the table of brotherhood.

[karlspur]

156. Ok you obviously have a problem of understand this in the simplist of term

Howard Dean said he wants the votes of the white southern males with confederate flag decals on their trucks, nothing in there he said the white male should leave his racist views behind and join the african americans in voting for Dean.

[_Jumper_]

157. That doesn't refute the point

The fact of the matter is that Dean wants the votes of racists.

When did MLK say he wanted the votes of racists?

I've never said Dean is a bigot; he isn't. However, he wants their votes. They ALL do. Dean is just the only candidate who admitted it. Even Dubya wouldn't say he wanted to be the candidate for the Confederate flag crowd...

[Hep]

165. NUANCE

Dean has said the flag is racist and who wants the votes of those that display it. Therefore, in Dean's view, he is courting racists. Just substitute "Swastika" for "Confederate flag" and you should understand that Dean was courting bigots.

You're not understanding the point.

Yes Dean said that the flag is a divisive symbol. But Dean understands as I do that not everyone that displays it is racist. Just misguided.

Do you understand that?

[karlspur]

166. So I guess NOT everyone with swastika flags are racist?

Is that your point? The swastika is a divisive symbol as well as the confederate flag, are you implying that only some swastika flag wavers are not racist as well as confederate flag wavers?

[Hep]

172. Actually, that's exactly my point

Absolutely. And I can prove it again. There was a guy in Chapel Hill who caused a huge ruckus because he had a swastika in his front yard.

He was a professor at UNC. Not the least bit racist. No idealogical connection to the Nazi party or anything at all. He displayed the symbol to educate people that the symbol had a meaning before the Nazi's stole it.

Personally, I think he was wrong to do it. I think he was an asshole for it. But he's ONE non racist person who flew the flag. You set up the rules with your absolute speech. Don't blame me for for that.

Anyway, TO THE POINT. The C flag is not the swastika. To a degree analogies can be brought between them. But that certainly doesn't mean that any analogy works. This one doesn't. The fact of the matter, and the point that you refuse to admit, is that there is a large population in the south who subscribe to the misguided, downright FALSE notion that the C Flag represents southern heritage. They refuse to open their eyes to the effect that it has on other people, but they GENUINELY feel that it represents something else. And they're NOT racist. They're NOT. OK? NOT racist.

Therefore your ongoing assertion that all people who display the symbol are racist is FALSE. Some are. TRUE.

You went out of your way in your assertion that the racist claim is all inclusive. You were wrong to do so. And now you find yourself in the same position that Dean was in, except worse. You didn't have good intentions.

[Hep]

173. OOOOOOH! Here's another one!

Look at this eeeevil racist lady!



On the front of Monday's Chapel Hill Herald, at the top of the page, there was a photo of gaily spinning pinwheels -- with swastikas at their center.

We received a call from a reader who was angered by the sight of what she and many see as a symbol of evil. But in this photo, the swastika is not being used as a symbol of evil; it is being used for its authentic purpose, as a symbol of .

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2001/10/17/14780.html

[TLM]

151. You skip the very imporatant fact that Dean wants

those folks to put aside the racism, stop being divided by race, and come together with blacks to vote for their shared goals of healthcare and good schools.

You keep saying he wants the votes of racists... when what he wants if for these folks to stop letting the republicans scare them and divide them over race. You ignore that part because it doesn't help your attacks.

[Hep]

79. Because he wasn't

Why does everyone think that Confederate flag waver=racist?

Have none of you really ever met a person who has a rebel flag sticker or shirt and ISN'T racist? Am I really the only one?

This is not a black and white issue, and we are not supposed to be the ones who see things as black and white. Liberals are the ones who are supposed to understand grey area. Why is it that on this issue it's so impossible for some of you?

I live here, I understand the nuance, because I know the people. And yes, some people who fly the confederate flag are really racist. BUT NOT ALL. You simply can NOT generalize like that. PLEASE stop doing it.

[Hep]

77. This is great!

Look, I already know you haven't yet grasped the concept of literary devices. You don't need to drive the point home for me.

[karlspur]

87. There is no substance or facts in your response

So I don't feel the need to respond.

[Hep]

94. Is it irony?

That a person responds by saying they have no need to respond?

[TLM]

149. Time to alert the mods...

We've tried to debate this guy, but all he seems to want to do is lie about Dean and complain that he can't call blacks Ni**ers like they call each other...

[karlspur]

155. Once again you twist my words around

I said nothing about wanting to use the term "ni**ers", in fact I find the phrase offensive that I couldn't even spell it out. I am not lying about Dean you must be confused that facts=lies. I just stated that black people often refer to each other as "my ni**a" but they are not called racists.

[Guaranteed]

51. What the hell?

What, exactly, was racist about what he said?

[karlspur]

64. Here you go

Racist comment
"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

My response
I understand, he wants to be the man of the people who lynch negroes, he wants to be the man that David Duke votes for.

[saoirse]

11. Follow the news please!

This was TODAY:

http://www.cnn.com

[Guaranteed]

61. Yeah I saw all of his appearances this morning

including the online appearance. All he did was apologize for the reference to the flag. He's not changing his position.
That's it.

[Julien Sorel]

21. The rumor is that the CBC and the SEIU

leaned on him and forced him to say it was an apology. Apparently he had some kind of deal worked out with them where he said he would apologize, but he tried to low-ball it on the apology, so they forced him to make good.

[RetroLounge]

102. Is that the rumor in the Clarkie Circle Jerk of Dean Bashing

or is that some legit rumor?

Oh, wait, you can just make it up, right?

The rumor is Clark has a confederate flag on the back of his Abrams Tank. Really. I heard this.

Sheesh.

Get over it already...

[CWebster]

37. damned if he do and

damned if he don't.

[Julien Sorel]

47. That's the position you put yourself in when you

fuck up.

[CWebster]

63. doesn't matter what he does, Billy

in your book he always fucks up. That is no secret.

[sangh0]

74. The difference this time

is that even Dean agrees he screwed up.

[RetroLounge]

106. Yell that he should apologize

then slam him for apologizing.

Sounds just like a Republican Tactic...

[_Jumper_]

162. Issuing fake apologies is also a Republican tactic

Remember how many DU'ers accepted Lott's first "apology"? Why hold Dean to a lower standard?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. No it wasn't. It was the right thing to do.

He cleans up the fact that he used a rather INFLAMMATORY and hurtful symbol for some and stereotyped others while leaving the door open to discuss what he REALLY meant which is that CLASS is an issue. Now he doesn't need to say RACE or CLASS...the point of his speech and symbolism has been made...a deep point which doesn't lend itself well to soundbites about Confederate flags on your truck.

[drfemoe]

67. nothing wrong with it

Again .. it is considered a mental illness to NEVER change your mind about ANYTHING!!! I don't think he 'needed' to apologize, but I respect and admire his willingness to reconsider after he LISTENS to other's points of view.

The whole 'flip-flop' rationale is disfunctional. That's what children or unhappy married people do .. you said. no you said. no you said .. now you say . no I said . .>> absolute go nowhere disfunction.

He in effect said, I hear you say it was "offensive", and that was not what I intended .. now let's talk about the real issue.

If people cannot deal with that, I suggest a good communications course.

[mzmolly]

169. I think he needed to apologize. It was the right thing to do,

not because the original comment was made in a racist way, but because after Al Sharpton declared if was offensive, people became 'offended'. Once people are offended, it's best to apologize and recognize hurt.

He had to put this issue to rest. They'll call Dean a liar, panzy, flip flopper no matter what he does. And, if he didn't apologize he'd be an arrogand, liar, panzy flip flopper KWIM?

[ModerateMiddle]

170. "Dean appeared to be making inroads"

appeared how?

[zonmoy]

174. If anything he shouldnt have apologized at all

He should have stuck to his guns and said the truth about them.

[madddog]

179. I agree

He has nothing to apologize about.

a)There are people in the south who DO have confederate flags on their trucks
b)some of them vote
c)if a dem is to win in '04, he's gonna need some of those votes.

Why the hell should THAT need an apology?

slan go foill, a chara.

[onebigbadwulf]

180. Actually it was more of a back-handed apology

He was saying that intelligent people understood the message, and if you're an idiot who took offense, then sorry you're an idiot.