Hardball. Zell Miller is going to hurt the Dems more than many realize.

[blm]

People will hear his forceful praise of Bush and his harsh view of Democrats and hear exactly what they need to hear and hang their hat for 2004. This SUCKS. He is a powerful speaker and knows how to hit the notes.

This act of his will be trumpeted louder in the media more times than anything the candidates themselves will say.

Sickening.

[BuckeFushe]

1. This wrinkled old prune should have retired sooner

Now comes the fireworks between Chambliss and Rockafeller.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

3. you better edit that post

these things have a way of getting misunderstood by the Ashcroftians.

[BuckeFushe]

4. these things have a way of getting misunderstood by the Ashcroftians

We get set up by the Hannintizers yesterday, they are calling for the execution of Ted Kennedy, and your worried about that comment?

[blm]

12. not me

but the board owners don't care for even jokes about threats.

[xchrom]

5. well i think of it another way

so i don't get despondent.
zell is the marker, the boundary -- what the major left leaning party is not. he accurately defines what dems need to rise above.
let him go on -- it may ultimately be good for the party -- and then let him go. period.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. Only if they LEAVE him in the party. We have already lost the POWER of

that senate seat. The Dems should WISE UP and demand that he switch parties. FORCE HIS hand. Make him out to be another Jesse or STROM...his votes certainly support that notion.

[Judi Lynn]

50. I've wondered this, too

Isn't it possible for a political party to remove members who are destructive to the party?

You'd surely think so. He needs to be denouced LOUDLY AND CLEARLY.

A photo of the Zellmeister getting sworn in. Can you believe the bitterness and suspicion on their faces?

[kodi]

7. dean, clark, kerry and gephardt have, simply have to respond to this

they need to challenge miller point by point and recognize that what miller is saying is exactly the campaign strategy on issues and policy philosophies bush will be using in 2004 to go after moderates and independents.

miller did us a bizarre favor in this because that dusty musty clay besodden clown put on the table what the dems have to overcome.

it is now up to the democratic candidates to respond to the narrative miller has used to define them and the party. they must present the policies they espouse in a manner which undercuts the story miller tells about the democratic party and how it (ill-)serves the people.

whoever does ths well will get the nomination; whoever does it very well will be the next president.

[farmbo]

51. Gephardt was asked about Zell onTweety...and punted.

He never laid a glove on him...just lapsed into some stump-speech pablim about how he (Gephardt) "...will be the next President...blah, blah, blah".

In other words, he was afraid to ruffle Zell's chickenhawk feathers.

Geeze...when will we make Miller accountable for his own words?

[flpoljunkie]

53. I would like to see Max Cleland respond to Zell's trashing of the Dems...

Zell used to think the GOP were the bad guys who were only out for themselves, and not the little guy. Someone needs to dig up these old quotes and serve them up to the old fart.

Zell has sold out to the greedheads! He is an shameless shill for the Rethugs. I can't stand to hear his harangue, and he's been on every show this week spreading this s*it.

[farmbo]

54. Bravo...Let Max be the Frontman on the issue.

The theme: "Old and Out of Touch".

[gulliver]

8. Zell Who?

(Most frequent response when most people are asked about DINO Zell.)

[Yavin4]

9. Zell Doesn't Want The Democrats To Be The Opposition Party

In fact, he doesn't want any opposition to Bush. Well, that's just not how democracy is supposed to work. If we all just fall in line behind Bush and the Republicans, then why even have elections at all. Geesh!

Yes, Bush and the Republican party are extremely popular in the South, and there's little that anyone can do about it. Acquiescing to everything that Bush wants is not a good long-term political strategy.

A political party has to have principles, and sometimes that means that the party may have to lose elections while supporting those principles. Why? Because in the long run, you may lose an election, but you'll gain the respect of the people, and as Bush's policies fail, you'll can hold your head high.

[Postman]

10. He's an Elephant wearing a Donkey jacket...

as Al Sharpton would say

[BuckeFushe]

11. Saxby Chambliss said all the right things, what the others haven't

"If a staffer brought the memo to me unsolicited, he would be fired. We will follow the evidence wherever it leads, all the way to the White House if necessary" (slightly paraphrased, old fingers).

[John_H]

13. Only Tom Daschle and Terri McAuliffe have the power

to transform Dick Russell...er...Zell Miller from a walking, talking Republican PR stunt into just another old white southern guy who loves the Chimp.

Right now zell's doing more damage than any rethug could precisely because he's a "dem"--and he's doing it for his own ego, doing it for money.

Tommy?

[BuckeFushe]

15. Zell from Hell will be isolated and ignored in the Senate by Dems

Bet his lunch calendar is full though.

[mlawson]

19. How far can they go??

They can strip Zell of his committees, and other perks, but can they force him to change parties, or did you mean that? I doubt that anyone can force a citizen to switch party registration.

But, I do think it would look better if the Dem party COULD force him out, rather than let him change on his own.

[David Zephyr]

14. He's Already Hurt the Party More Than Many Realize.

He's done more damage through betrayal over the years than his exiting the Party now can. I'm so glad he has at least finally admitted to his sneaky and cowardly ways.

[lancdem]

18. We shouldn't force him to leave

That's exactly what he wants. It would just backfire on us.

[mlawson]

20. I doubt there is a mechanism that we could use to force him out.

I am not a party affairs expert, but I doubt that there is one.

[IndianaGreen]

44. Perhaps Scott Peterson will take Zell on a boat ride...

:evilgrin:

[John_H]

45. Didn't they kick Trafficant out after he voted for Gingrich?

Can they just do that in the House?

[David Zephyr]

38. I Didn't Suggest That.

to the contray, I think Zell should stay squarely within the Democratic Party which he has long betrayed both behind the scenes and now publicly. It's fitting and consistent.

I like him right where he is: the poster boy for the DLC. Yes, indeed.

[charlie]

41. Poster boy for the DLC, LOL

I usually think of Zell as an aberrational swamp creature, it kinda slips my mind that he's a DLCer. Yes, it would be lovely to hang that boat anchor around their necks -- see what happens when one of your guys embraces the "we're Dems, but not those kind of Dems" credo wholeheartedly?

[Melinda]

16. Certainly analogous to what some of the Dem candidates & their supporters

do right here at DU -- and It's ALL devisive.

[BuckeFushe]

17. Betsy Moore is a wind-up toy of the RNC

She's sputtering and backtracking as Tweety actually asked pointed questions about the misadministration "throw it against the wall see what sticks" policy of the reasons for going to war in Iraq, ESPECIALLY with the Squatters speech this afternoon calling for the Democratization of the Middle East.

[roguevalley]

21. He's Lester Maddox all over again. Let him have that voting segment.

if they vote, that is.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

22. Zell's our generation's Dick Russell!

:eyes:

By the way Zell, there are several Democrats in the south whom are popular and moderate who do not parrot Mr. Bush at every turn!

List: Bob Graham, Bill Nelson, Mary Landrieu, Fritz Hollings, and Harold Ford Jr.(I know about his Iraq vote but on the domestic front he's a progressive!)

[papau]

23. on NPR Jody Powell sang the Zell Theme and made it quite reasonable

Namely that the problem is not a symbol, but how it is used.

And for most in the South - white and black- the confed flag is a Symbol of a past history of living in the south - pride in parents and region.

When used in a racist way - as a racist symbol - of course it must be put down and the folks using it must be put down.

But on most occassions, for most people, it has limited racial meaning, and a great deal of regional meaning.

And to ignore that fact means the Dem party in the South will become a black and upper middle class white liberal party - which means nowhere near 50% of the vote - and that means never winning elections again.

Deans words were clumsy - but if rephrased as folks in pick-ups that hunt and have flag decals on the window - it is the equivalent of Joe Sixpack in the urban North. And we need Joe Sixpack and folks in pick-ups that hunt and have flag decals on the window to vote their economic interest. And to do that - for the Dems to win elections - they need not be told, should not be told, that in the past they voted GOP for racist reasons.

[Lefty48197]

24. I don't think anyone gives a crap what Zell Miller says

Southern conservative white men have been Republicans for over twenty years now. Zell's been pretending otherwise for, at least a few years now. I don't think conservative southern white males will be voting for any national Democrats anytime soon.
I do think we need to work to convince some of those southern white males that Democrats are the ones who are really on their side. Jobs and a healthy economy are important to everybody.

[blm]

34. WE don't. The general public will eat it with a spoon.

Miller won't be the only turncoat with a microphone...there's Ed Koch and more.

[GOPBasher]

25. That's true.

I wish he'd just switch. Why the hell does he still call himself a Democrat?

[mlawson]

26. If he is going to switch, he should get it over with

now, way before next year's elections. But I wonder if he even will??? I can't remember the case in which a senator of one party actually ENDORSED the nominee of the other party, especially more than a year out. Beats anything I've seen.

[legin]

27. I suppose

from a DNC perspective if they kick him out of the Democratic Party, Miller will just whine very loudly on all the networks about how the "Democratic Party has been taken over by extremist left wing, east coast liberals" and do everything in his power to try and detach Southern centrists away from the Democratic party and into the Republican fold.

If they don't kick him out the party, then he will run his little spoiler campaign for bush* from inside the party saying pretty much the same thing as if he had been kicked out of the party and with the same aims of detaching the Southern centrists.

You are pretty much damned whatever you do. It is probably a calculation of what causes the least damage.

A lot of people vote intelligently, or semi-intelligently, a lot of people vote by a sort of glorified conditioned reflex, they vote how they were brought up to vote. I would imagine that Zell probably represents a standard southern Democratic politician in the eyes of some people and very publically throwing him out of the party could be a 'conditioning breaker'.


Apologies to any Southerners here if this post is offensive, but it must be minutes since you were last properly insulted and it is almost two days since I last had a post deleted so,
:evilgrin:

[GiovanniC]

28. When I Heard Zell's Comments the Other Day...

I was furious.

I went to my fiance and told her that I hated that traitorous bastard, that he was a disgrace to the Democratic party. I said, "Can you believe that asshole actually said he'd not only support the psychotic unelected moron, but that he'd CAMPAIGN FOR HIM!? Who does Zell Miller think he is?"

She was silent for a minute. Then... "Who the heck is Zell Miller?"

Later that night I saw a friend of mine and I expressed my fury to him. "Zell Miller said that he was going to support that idiot Bush! He said that he didn't 'trust' any of the Democratic candidates! But he trusts Bush!? For the love of Christ!!!"

He nodded and then kind of looked at me blankly. "Who the hell is Zell Miller?"

The next day, I went to work and told my coworkers that the whole Zell Miller thing pissed me off. "I don't even understand how that idiot can call himself a Democrat. He's more of a Republican than a lot of Republicans are!"

And once again, I was talking to some very confused people. "Zell who?" ventured one.

That's when it occurred to me. No one cares. Normally the general apathy toward politics that most people share irritates me, but in this case it helps us.

On Meet the Press the other day, my fiance saw Zell Miller rambling on about something. She watched him for maybe a minute or two, then turned to me and said, "Who's this senile old guy?" So we've got that going for us, too.

[fujiyama]

47. Today was the

first time I actually saw him speak. I hate him even more now, AFTER watching him speak. You're fiance's right. He does seem like a senile, wrinkley old twit.

Most people will get that impression. They aren't interested. They could care less and in this case that would be very good news for us.

Here's a good indication of how much people care about these "news" related programs (Hannity and Colmes, O'Reilly, etc)...I remember reading that a moderately rated network sitcom ("Hope and Faith") recieved around 10 million viewers. O'Reilly brags that he is the king at that time slot...well maybe by news channel standards, but that is still only 1 million or 1.3 million at the most. Most people aren't paying attention to Miller on Hannity and Colmes and probably didn't see his idiotic rant on the Aaron Brown show on CNN...

[ShaneGR]

29. Tell that to the 70% of people who voted Dem in Summit County, Ohio

A county of about 750,000 people. A huge swing county in a huge battleground state. They don't give a flying FU*K about Zell Miller. Heck, they don't even know who Zell Miller is.

I KNOW WHAT THEY KNOW. REPUBLICANS ARE THE ENEMY.

This area hasn't voted this Democratic for 25 YEARS.

http://www3.uakron.edu/SCBOE/elec1103.txt

[Snellius]

30. Agree or disagree, nobody likes a Judas

Zellout Miller was helped and supported by the Democratic Party for decades and now, as he approaches retirement (eased, no doubt, by the sale of his latest book), he decides to spit in the face of his friends. Nobody worth a crap can respect that treachery.

[William Seger]

31. On a more optimistic note...

Let's not forget the reality: Miller's hero is probably the worst president we've ever had -- a lying two-faced Messiah-complex chickenhawk war criminal who believes that the main problem with this country is that the rich aren't getting richer fast enough -- while the Democratic candidates he's trashing are all good people.

I'm beginning to believe that BushCo is slowly losing control of the mainstream media, which means that the Bush* Bandwagon might really be on a slow-motion collision course with reality, after all. If so, then Zell Miller is just another volunteer crash-test dummy.

The best way to rub Zell's nose in it is to send Bush* into a disgraced early retirement.

[blm]

33. As long as Jack Welch and Murdoch control NBC, CNBC, MSNBC and Fox

and CNN belongs to AOL, Bush will have Zell Miller singing his praises and any other Dem turncoat, way more than the Dem nominee. Bet on it. THEY OWN THE MEDIA.

[William Seger]

39. I thought so too...

... but then again, if that's the case, it's hard to explain some of the stories that have been slowly creeping into the mainstream and the resulting decline in Bush's* poll numbers.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps the forces that control the media are greedier than they are ideological (Fox excluded, anyway); that they are ultimately biased toward whatever sells the most product, e.g. negativity; that they may be too smart to go down with a sinking ship when there's another (profitable) ship to jump on.

One key is that the mainstream media isn't quite a monoply yet. They still need to compete with each other. That at least opens the possibility that chasing Fox isn't necessarily inevitable, if rabid right-wing BS and Bush worshipping starts going out of style.

Another key is that while mainstream America is normally disengaged from politics, most of them really aren't as stupid as the right-wing propagandists think.

[blm]

42. That's why they give time to DISAFFECTED Dems like Miller and Koch.

And there will be more. Bet on it. It will all come down to national security and Israel's security. A few more Democrats will side with Bush. They'll get the airtime.

[kentuck]

32. Send him an email ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=665264

last post has email address..

[ErasureAcer]

35. who the fuck watches matthews?

if it weren't for Press and Olberman...this damn channel would be blocked.

[pinballer]

40. The truth of the matter is that

....Zell Miller has taken a good look around, weighed his chances and decided that for the foreseeable future the Republi-Fascist cabal in Washington is the political force that will remain in power, and is doing everything in his power to have himself kicked out of the Democrats and into the waiting arms of the Fascist Republican warmongers.

I hope he gets his wish. Good riddance to a piece of human offal like Zell Miller.

[dfong63]

36. so why is this worse than Clark voting for Reagan et al, and

... doing fundraising for the repubs, to boot?

[haymaker]

37. Let that ass hitch his wagon to Bush's anchor,

Bush is going down. He is so naked you can see his guts. This house of cards cannot stand.

Hang on Zell, it's going to be a quick descent.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Miller will be campaigning for Bush in 2004

and he doesn't like any of the Democrats running for President, not even Lieberman.

I think we can all agree that Zell is a dangerous treasonous prick that should be kicked out of the Democratic Party at once!

[moondust]

46. Bullshit. He looks crazy.

Bashing his own party and not leaving it. If he hates it so much why doesn't he leave? Any sane person would. I think he needs to see a shrink.

[MSchreader]

48. Time to "rat-fuck" Zell-out Miller

What cemetaries are in his closet?

Martin

[tlb]

49. The other side of the coin from Jim Jeffords switch

and opposition to Bush. Of course it will be covered by the press. How could it not ?

[tom_paine]

52. Yep. And I think that's why Uncle Karl left him there until now

This is a no-win situation, a Rove special.

If the Dems toss him out or censure him, it lends more credence to his Bushevik bullshit.

If they keave him in place, he still damages them.

It's even worse if he is for real, but the same no-win dichotomy still applies.

And of course the Right-Wing Sub-Media and Corporate TV Pravda will absolutely give him as much actual airtime to get his own words out as our eventual candidtae.

It is as certain as the original Pravda giving Brezhnev a maximum amount of space for his views.

A lock.