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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 08:18 PM
Original message
Liberal Space: Taking Back JFK's Dream
The rumor mill is floating with the supposition that come December 17, President Bush is going to announce a Bold New Initative for American spaceflight, most likely a pledge to return to the Moon. My own analysis of the rumor is pretty skeptical, primarily because this isn't the first time a George Bush has promised a Bold New Initiative for American spaceflight that amounted to not much more than cheap publicity and bad noise.

So this pseduo-announcement hit the blogosphere in the last couple of days, and the reception was lukewarm to say the least, filled with mockery. This should not come as a huge surprise - it is Dubya we're talking about here - but I was surprised, at least, by the commenters who weren't mocking Bush but instead were mocking the concept of the space program.

I. Was. Astounded. Here we had a small but vocal minority of self-styled progressives sneering at one of the most impressive acts that the human species, much less the United States, has ever accomplished. To wit:


"As far as I'm concerned, manned space flight is just for dreamers who grew up on Flash Gordon, Star Wars and the like. We're just not ready for it, in a nutshell."

"as a species we can not afford to sqander the resources on space exploration.
it will cost us the planet we live on while never affording us a replacement.
Why people think it is a viable idea to use Earth at will and just 'go someplace else' when it's used up is beyond me with stupidity."

"Manned space flight is our version of building the pyramids, a squandering of scarce resources in the name of a childish, because impossible dream."

"Star Trek is a nice dream, but it's a long way away. We do not know, really, how to safely get to Mars and back."

"People who put their faith in space travel instead of in real political change are a pathetic lot, not least of which because they aspire to space tech without realizing that the real tech is to survive on this gloriously alive planet without killing it off. We can't afford to waste more money on rock collecting missions."


And so on. The primary arguments boil down to:

1) It's too expensive!

2) We have to solve all our problems here first!

3) Hubris and Vanity! Hubris and Vanity!

4) We don't know how!

5) Aw, lookit the cute little geeks all pretending to be rocket pilots, aren't they so precious?

Taking it from the top:

The first point, the massive waste of money and resources in space flight, turns out to be, well, false. Taking current NASA operations as a starting point, we find that right now we're spending $15.5 billion dollars in the Federal budget. That's a lot of money - certainly it's more than we'll ever have - but compared to the military budget ($379.9 billion), the Social Securty budget ($535 billion), the emergency bailout of Iraq ($87 billion), it really is a drop in the Federal bucket. All of these things get considerably more money every year than NASA does, than NASA ever has. A reorganization of NASA's priorities to include, for example, a Mars mission, would not increase the budget that much. The private Mars Society claims that the total cost of a landing on Mars would be $30 billion over ten years, NASA's engineers are more cautious, figuring a total cost of $50 billion over the same period. But you know what? That only adds three or five billion to the annual NASA budget.

Furthermore, even if there isn't a cent spent on space exploration, there is absolutely no way that that saved money will be spent on feeding the poor/saving the world/improving the environment/etc. None. It's a fallacy, and those engaged in it are smarter than that. I hope.

The second point is a form of willful blindness with regard to the nature of problems. The thing is, you can't solve all the problems. The funny thing about problems is that, when you solve one, another four pop up to replace it. Every time a new idea becomes widespread, problems stemming from that idea will also show up. Static communities (i.e. houses, towns and cities) cause sanitation problems. Agriculture causes problems with overuse of land, etc.

This is not to say that we shouldn't stop trying to solve these problems. But there is no reason to not keep exploring while we're doing it. If we waited for Utopia to dawn before we did anything, we'd still be a band of primates wandering aimlessly around the African Rift Valley.

The third point is often delivered with "we've fucked up this planet, let's go fuck up the rest of the universe! Whee!" cynical misanthropy that certainly dwarfs any of my efforts at misanthropy.

Visceral sarcasm aside, the base argument "Hubris and Vanity" has been the party line for kings, priests, CEOs and other authoritarian types for the entirety of human history: Man wasn't meant to fiddle with the Natural Order of Things, any attempt to do so would be unnatural, be content with the way things are, because they'll always be this way. It's an inherently conservative viewpoint, which makes it strange that so many self-declared liberals would take that line as gospel.

The fourth point, well... at some point in every job you have to get into learning by experience. We've got a great deal of theoretical work behind us in terms of exploring space, as well as a great deal of practical work completed in terms of how to live and work in space. Also, the probes we've sent across the solar system have done plenty of groundwork in terms of giving us accurate data on conditions at our destination points. We have a better idea of what's waiting for us today than Columbus or Zheng He had when starting out on their expeditions.

The fifth point frankly doesn't deserve a rebuttal. That kind of ugly condesending attitude is exactly the kind of behavior our ideological opponents would like to tar us with. It doesn't help if we take the attitude on willingly.

Now, let me be honest to the point of social suicide: I am a huge space cadet. I'm too young to remember the moon landings, but I grew up during that heady period when it looked like spaceflight was finally becoming something that anybody could do, at least to orbit, and we'd have space stations and Moon bases and Mars outposts and maybe even acheive that Jupiter mission in 2001.

I am also a partisan Democrat, like most of us here. I firmly believe that George W. Bush has been the most disasterous president our country has had, and it's likely that the future of the United States, and quite possibly Civilization-As-We-Know-It, will hinge on the outcome of the 2004 election. Given all that, if Bush was to announce and promote (i.e. do more than make one speech) a pledge to go back to the Moon, or go to Mars, and the Democratic candidate was to say "no, we can't do that," it would require an effort of will for me to pull the lever for the Democrat.

Why? Because a pledge to go to Mars would give Bush a pass for his prior activities? Of course not. Rather, pulling that lever would be assisting a popular mandate that would cripple the space program for another generation, if not end it outright. That alone would give me sufficient pause to wonder if I was doing the right thing.

Given that I hold the beliefs I do, I submit that the status of the space program is more important in the long run than the war in Iraq, Bush's shenannigans with the budget, abortion, gay marriage, prayer in schools or any of the other bugbears we like to panic over here. These are utlimately short-term problems. One way or another, they will be sorted out.

I further submit that it is not in the best interests of the Democratic Party to make the reduction of the manned space program an issue. I am not alone in my beliefs, there are a lot of us out there, and we will hesitate if the candidate pledges to cut NASA, no matter how much we despise Bush. It may not be political suicide, but it is exceptionally stupid.

What does all this mad rambling mean?

Well...

If it is not in the best interests of the Democratic Party to abandon the space program, then maybe it is within the best interests of the party to embrace the program? I think so. We need to start looking beyond the next election, to start work on the future of humanity. It won't necessarily be an American future, at least not in the way PNAC or like ghouls would think, but it could be an American future in the way that our society is an Athenian society, or a Roman society. Empires may rise and fall, but to have American progressive ideals be the guiding lights for a future Martian nation, or a new Enlightenment on a planet circling Tau Ceti, that's not a bad deal for a national posterity, really.

It can be done, but will is needed. NASA is a bureaucratic institution, and bureaucracies are by nature conservative creatures. If any goal is to be achieved in space, it has to be made by political will. NASA needs another Kennedy.

As a campaign plank it would provide something to rally the people behind that doesn't involve guns and bombs and planes and troops, something that we can be for instead of always being against one thing or another. We can be for taking that last step from being a more-clever-than-average terrestrial species into something far greater, possibly unique.

That's one hell of a step, and we can take it. All we have to do is reclaim JFK's dream.

Some talking points to consider:

1) If Bush says we're going back to the moon, given his track record it is extremely unlikely that he'll follow through.

2) Bush has not shown a commitment to science or general research, excepting certain military endeavors, so any tinkering he means to do to the space program is very likely to reduce the useful work it does.

3) The Space Shuttle and ISS are not the best use of dollars currently spent on space.
3a) On the other hand, they are what we're doing now and we're unlikely to abandon them unless either something new is endorsed and funded, or Florida ceases to be a factor in the 2004 elections.

4) Unmanned probes, both in Earth orbit and to other planets are easily worth the money. Anything done to deemphasize the space or earth science mission returns of NASA would be a mistake.

5) Private enterprise can reliably put satellites into low earth orbit. We can privatize this function (and regulate it carefully).

6) There is room for vigorous and honest bipartisan debate on the future and direction of the manned space program. We should have this public debate, but an honest debate is unlikely given the reputation of the Bush Administration.

I now open the floor to comments.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick
C'mon, guys. I know I'm a wordy bastard, but doesn't this deserve even a little commentary? It's got to be better than rehashing the same old drek over and over, right?

Right?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. We will go to the moon again...
and Mars, and every other spot in the Solar System.

And the time is now.

"Mars waits for us" Ben Bova, 'Mars'.

"The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us are going to the stars!"
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well, yeah
That was ultimately the point of the post.

Any thoughts on how to drum The Candidates into becoming believers?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Mention...
Jobs created

Secondary benefits (teflon, pacemakers, modern computers, etc...)

Possibility of commercial benefits (mining, solar power, things you can do in 0-g and vacuum you just can't do on earth)

Feel good goal; setting the bar higher.

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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. A good start
But again, the hurdle is getting The Candidates to say these things. We can say these things until we're blue in the face and reach few with any power to create a national mandate. Somebody like Dean or Clark or Kerry or Sharpton, however...

How does one put the bug in their ear? Besides pulling up to the campaign HQ with a truckload of money, that is.
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Volunteer!
Work for free.
When they offer money, refuse.
Mention it to the local leader, and your fellow volunteers.
When the candidate comes to your town (assuming your town is on his list), the candidate will talk to volunteers. The guys who work for free get more attention than the 'employees'.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. excellent post
and space exploration should not be for commercial exploitation or warfare. It should be for the hell of it, and I mean that in the best possible way. Poking around, seeing what's out there, pushing our limits - those are exceedingly human endeavours.

But I worry. I think the 1970s will be regarded with awe someday, because it was the high-water mark of the progress ideal. Moon walks became boring, for God's sake. There is now a generation of adults with no memory of lunar flight. It's quickly being relegated to history, and if we're not careful, it will eventually become a myth.

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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. thank you
space exploration should not be for commercial exploitation or warfare.

I think that ultimately space will be used for commerical exploitation, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Obviously I'd rather we were mining metal out of asteroids and sucking hydrocarbons off of Titan than chewing up the Earth and invading Iraq. As for warfare.. I'm pragmatic. It'll happen eventually, we're human after all, but we can try to minimize the influence it has on future developments.

But I worry.

As do I, hence this post. There's a Heinlien quote... how does it go?

"I suspect that our race's tragedy has been played endless times. It may be that an intelligent race has to expand right up to its disaster point to achieve what is needed to break out of its planet and reach for the stars. It may always -- or almost always -- be a photo finish, with the outcome uncertain to the last moment. Just as it is with us. It may take endless wars and unbearable population pressure to force-feed a technology to the point where it can cope with space. In the universe, space travel may be the birth pangs of an otherwise dying race. A test. Some races pass, some fail . . ."

I'm not interested in failing. No Child Species Left Behind? ;-)
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well said, Your Highness
Ah, the dream of a Progressive presence in space -- a dream I've had, too! Surely, such an audacious venture could use a strong voice of leadership and Clintonian optimism. A voice that one of the world's last well-respected and forward-thinking regents might posess. And you might have that voice.

I would also note that the recently proposed Space Elevator has been reliably analyzed to cost approximately $40 billion for the first one, and $14.3 billion for each one thereafter. For $69 billion, we could build three such super-skyhooks, and save $18 billion over the current interim (Nov 03 - May 04) cost of the occupation of Iraq. (See the report by the Institute for Scientific Research.)

Robert Zubrin's Mars Direct program is estimated to cost a scant $20 billion. More ambitious projects have been planned, such as Mars One-Way with an estimated startup cost of $30 billion and a $1 billion yearly maintentance cost for 40 years.

Sadly, it's bedtime for me, but I will check in on the morrow.

--bkl
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. On monarchs, space elevators and other things
And you might have that voice.

Perhaps. But at the moment usurpers and criminals are ignoring the Imperial edicts. It tends to run in the imperial line - my ancestor had to fire Lincoln when he wouldn't agree to the Emperor's attempt to broker a cease-fire.

I would also note that the recently proposed Space Elevator has been reliably analyzed to cost approximately $40 billion for the first one, and $14.3 billion for each one thereafter.

I have taken note of this, but as the elevator (this is the Bradley Edwards paper, yes?) requires materials technology that's not quite ready for primetime just yet, I declined to mention it in the article. Still, once we can start making nanotube rope, I'm willing to pay the extra tax for one.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent post,
I, too, was astounded that so many were quick to bash the space program.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's one of those things that bugs me incessantly
I think it has something to do with the plague of cynicism and general pessimism that's hit over the last twenty years. Sort of an outgrowth of the "government is hopelessly corrupt, always has been, always will be, and nothing we do can change it" meme.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. I believe
both Dean and Clark backed the space program today. If anyone knows of another candidate that has done so...speak up.

This is vital.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Lessee
(also serving as an early monring kick)

Kucinich, IIRC, is a co-sponsor of the Space Exploration Act of 2003, the annual attempt by Nick Lampson to give NASA a needed kick in the pants.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. kick
One more time...

Is the Democratic Underground really not interested in this? C'mon, guys, a little discussion's all I ask.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm right with you, Emperor!
You're a much better Emperor than Bunnypants*, you know!

Dean just said he believes we should work towards a manned mission to Mars.

Of course, if Bunnypants* says it it will be a grotesque lie. More smoke and mirrors and just outright bullshit.

The Busheviks will almost certainly militarize near-Earth orbit but everyone knows manned spaceflight is for liberal wussies (as is science for the sake of long-term discovery).

Our current fiscal situation of maximum indebetdness would seem to preclde any kind of space explroation. I am as sad about that as anyone else.

The position that Clinton put us in fiscally was a springboard to being able to afford space exploration, but of course that has been so heartily reversed by the Busheviks that it simply doesn't seem possible.

And it will be a cold day in hell before the private sector does anything more than Earth-orbit stuff, even if they weren't busy looting the nation in concert with the Busheviks.

As to DUer shortsightedness on this issue, that doesn't surprise me. There are many (stupid, IMHO) arguments against space exploration, and as you've seen not all of them are from the Right.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. There's a certain irony here
but... nah. Skip it.

Anyway:

Our current fiscal situation of maximum indebetdness would seem to preclde any kind of space explroation.

In these times, waiting for complete solvency is akin to waiting for Utopia. If you're willing to take the short-term debt for long-term payoff, it's not a great burden.

And it will be a cold day in hell before the private sector does anything more than Earth-orbit stuff, even if they weren't busy looting the nation in concert with the Busheviks.

Oh, I don't know. There's a potential for profit there, even if it's something as prosaic as running tour buses. The hurdles are pretty high - but there's only the one.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. No, please, Joshua, share the irony...
In these times, waiting for complete solvency is akin to waiting for Utopia. If you're willing to take the short-term debt for long-term payoff, it's not a great burden.

Absolutely true. I was not saying that at the present situation of the Emperor of Amerika blatantly attempting to backrupt government purposefully precludes it, not the simple fact of being indebted. I wouldn't want complete solvency anyway by the government (which would cause a whole cascade of other issues). The debt should be paid DOWN, not OFF.

Having said that, I think you misunderstood my point. We are probably close to or in total agreement on the debt vs. payoff aspects of space travel.

Oh, I don't know. There's a potential for profit there, even if it's something as prosaic as running tour buses. The hurdles are pretty high - but there's only the one.

Possibly so. But if humanity is to truly survive long-term, these "explorations" cannot be run without an end goal in mind. As I am a molecular biologist, allow me to analogize about what I know. Lately, we have been inundated with "research" on such profitable advances such as correcting erectile dysfunction and growing hair on fat bald dudes. But the cutting-edge unprofitable work of curing diseases often requires government patronage simply because they are able to fund operations with long-term goals, even in the near-term absence of profits. One of the reasons we leapt further ahead during the Last Days of the Old Republic in genetics/molecular biology was principally because Clinton/Gore programs and grants funded so many small business startups in these areas. Now, maybe 9 of 10 of these companies failed, but each contributed to the body of knowledge and the one that succeeded usually made it because of a serious breakthrough. When the Busheviks seized control, they terminated these "liberal programs" without mercy, and many startups died because of it, their promise unplumbed. At the same time the Busheviks reoriented their R&D subsidization policies to big, established companies not known for their innovations nor for their expanding frontiers. But we are making great progress in keeping dicks stiff and hair on the heads of bald guys.

You see how this applies to space, don't you? Free Marketeers can build all the goddamned orbital tour buses they like, but the leapfrog nature of space requires step-by-step-by-step goals, usually horribly unprofitable, before any payoff is generated, if we are to achieve goals necessary for human survival.

That, in a nutshell is the problem. We need to get our metals from somewhere other than the earth. We need a renewable, clean source of energy (fusion, methinks) soon. Both of those advances, await us either in space or as a result of getting to space, but the payoffs are a long way away and there is much to do before even the tiniest bit of profit can be realized.

See what I mean?
==================================================

And please, share the ironic aspects of what I've said in the previous post. I enjoy discussing things with you, though we don't always agree.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Oh, I don't think I will share, Thomas
that would only lead to difficulty, and I'm not in the mood to dance this fine afternoon. Perhaps later, when it's more germaine.

Beyond that:

I was not saying that at the present situation of the Emperor of Amerika blatantly attempting to backrupt government purposefully precludes it, not the simple fact of being indebted.

Perhaps, but he cannot conquer forever. His own people will put a halt to it to save their own skins soon enough. Whether this means I have more faith in human nature or am more cynical than you, I'll let you judge.

You see how this applies to space, don't you? Free Marketeers can build all the goddamned orbital tour buses they like, but the leapfrog nature of space requires step-by-step-by-step goals, usually horribly unprofitable, before any payoff is generated, if we are to achieve goals necessary for human survival.

At the moment, the orbital tour bus is the step, at least to expand the playing field from being just the national programs - which, while effective, are very exclusionary - to allow for broader access. Broader access to orbit would allow for more effective use of the resource base. And right now, the free market independents involved in the process are losing money by the bucketload - just ask Rutan or Hudson or Carmack.

Step by step by step. NASA can leapfrog those steps to an extent because they've already accomplished them time and again. That means NASA can look beyond Earth orbit to the moon, or to Mars or even further afield. Everybody else is, at the moment, lagging behind by a considerable margin.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. What's The Point Of Going To Space?
If we are devastating the planet we're already on? I think NASA should combine fully with the Department of Energy into a full-time program for Clean, Renewable Energy.

<>
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm glad to see that you didn't actually *read* the article.
I think NASA should combine fully with the Department of Energy into a full-time program for Clean, Renewable Energy.

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read, and I read things like Slashdot on a daily basis.

The DoE does one thing. NASA does another. To combine them serves no purpose. If you want to increase DoE funding with a mandate to develop renewable energy infrastructure, that's a great idea, but it doesn't require NASA assistance.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Space and Energy
Actually, space would be the ideal place from which to generate energy, not to mention relocate heavy manufacturing.

This is not going to be an optional program soon. Within 10 to 20 years, the price of oil will skyrocket. We are close to having found all the oilfields the Earth has. We also need to increase our current energy use at around 2.8% per annum to avoid economic collapse.

So, we'll have to reconstruct our society so that energy-based growth is not mandatory, AND find new sources of energy. Space offers a gigantic amount of energy production capacity just from the Sun alone.

With most of our heavy industry in space, and robotized, we could work on building a new economy based on learning, research, the arts and sciences, and other "value increasing" ventures. But in the transition, we could also direct solar energy to earthside collectors, either as concentrated sunlight, or as microwaves, as was proposed in the 1970s.

The alternative is a collapse of worldwide industrial activity, leading to a depression of mind-boggling proportions. This will not usher in a "Soft Revolution" of any sort, since it will happen so quickly and so universally. As soon as the cost of raising oil to the surface exceeds the value of the oil, it's all over, all at once. It will usher in mass suffering, povery, misery, and death.

We've already wasted 30 years. We can't afford to waste even another ten.

I think that Team Bush knows this, and Phase II will be to take control of the alternative fuels market; Phase III would be to take control of space. That's why we need a Progressive presence in the space program, right now.

--bkl
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Energy!
Space offers a gigantic amount of energy production capacity just from the Sun alone.

There's also plenty of energy to be found in the outer system, in the form of fusion fuel. The isotope helium-3 can be fed into fusion reactors and generates ridiculous amounts of energy for a smaller scale facility. Bush and his cronies like to make noise about the "hydrogen ecomomy," but I prefer the concept of a helium economy - less likely to explode on you.

Not to say that SPS doesn't have a place - it does, and an important one at that, but fusion would be an easier row to hoe at least in the short term when dealing with recalcitrant energy cartels, as the methods of extraction and shipment would be more understandable to them.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. Disagree
Sort of.

I too am a space cadet. However, the last 20 years have utterly convinced me that the future of the space is most efficiently pursued by private corporations, not the government. In the next couple of years we will witness private companies accomplishing with a few million dollars what NASA was unable to accomplish with billions: cheap, reuseable, low earth orbit vehicles. If you want to have the government fund X-prize like initiatives to get to the moon that's fine, but at this point NASA is a relic of the cold war and needs to be scrapped. They are just getting in the way of progess.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Partial agreement
Private corporations have a role to play in the exploration of space, but ultimately that role will most likely not be a vanguard one. Corporate authority has the same mental block NASA does - they're bureaucracies at heart, and as such very resistant to change.

The smaller companies are, and have continued to, have difficulty maintaining funds.

Personally, I favor a model similar to what fueled Renaissance exploration: the government funds one guy with a dream, Burt Rutan or Bob Zubrin, say, but otherwise lets him handle all the detail work. It's a great deal riskier than the usual route, but it stands a better chance of being sustainable.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. NASA, and Energy issues
NASA: Yes, NASA is becoming like a dinosaur, but it can be used to bootstrap over to a mixed economic model for space development.

As you might infer, I don't think an all-private-enterprise model would work out too well. FE would work more quickly than a mixed model, but FE has one value and one value alone -- profit. Developing human habitats in space would require something more expansive, especially since a free-space habitat would be the ultimate closed system. The vast profitability of space development has the potential to create a high-tech feudalism, with the value of a human life measured against the generation of cosmic wealth -- and losing.

But I don't think FE should be excluded -- just "dethroned" from the imperial position it now occupies. (With no disrespect implied, Your Highness :-))

The first big step we could take would be to re-design the corporation as a public entity. Entrepreneurs would still be able to reap fantastic rewards, but society would benefit directly, and there would be constraints on the exploitation of human beings.

As to energy ...

Using isotopic hydrogen for fusion energy is a good prospect, but I think it's a much better one for spacecraft propulsion; it's also still pretty far from being useful at this point. I personally think solar energy will have to take precedence in the short term, since we really are facing a step off the cliff.

Our society is currently so inept at long-range planning, I fear that we'll be several years into that deep depression before the first powersats come on-line. If we are in a position where we have to develop space for energy ASAP, we will have to sacrifice a lot of desirable technical development in the short term just to get the engines of civilization back up to speed. That gap, that energy famine, will allow gangs like Team Bush to consolidate political power. I am starting to believe that is the actual "game plan" -- I hope I'm wrong.

I'd rather that "we" get started before that happens. Mixed economies, "rich" energy technologies, and a democratic expansion into space seems to me to be the best way to accomplish that goal.

--bkl
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. There's an idea...
The Corporation for Public Spaceflight? I endorse this product and/or service. Have to think about this one some more...

I personally think solar energy will have to take precedence in the short term, since we really are facing a step off the cliff.

I think it could go either way, and possibly end up as a mixture. A good place - a more accessible place - to get helium-3 is the lunar surface. The isotope's deposited there by the solar wind, which means that with all the heavy solar activity the last couple of days the moon just recieved a fresh consignment of yummy helium.

Of course, the benefit (easier to get to) has drawbacks (much smaller concentrations, more difficult to extract and refine) but it's there and a viable alternative once CERN or Los Alamos or the Japanese manage to get their reactors up to ignition temperature.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. One last kick
Giving the weekend crowd a go....
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. It will just be a front for Bush's planned military dominance of space.
He wants to be able to kill anyone anywhere at any time.

Military, political and economic opponents will always wonder if death is awaiting in low earth orbit.
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Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes, you've established your cynical bonafides
Now, do you have anything productive to add to the discussion?
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