I think I'm changing to Clark. Ouch.

[tedoll78]

And I can't believe it.

Before I go any further..
ANY of the nine candidates would be a fine replacement to Bush.
Any one of them will give us nice judicial nominees.
Any one of them will retore respectable foreign policy.
Any one of them will put a block on a right-wing domestic agenda.
Any one of them will restore sane economic/jobs policy.

With that in mind, I think we should make our choices based on who has the best chance to beat the Chimp. And I now think that Clark is that man. He almost certainly wins the Gore States (260EVs) and his home state (Arkansas - 6EVs), which means he only needs a New Hampshire or West Virginia to win. He also forces Bush into defending more states that he would otherwise have to defend; this will give Bush less time and money to spend attacking Gore States.

I don't want to take any chances with 2004 anymore. I love Dean like crazy. I've sent him money, bought t-shirts and bumperstickers, recruited supporters, screamed at rallies, defended him online relentlessly, etc - but now I'm also scared that he'll be buried in the general election. I've always been scared of this, and I wonder if others feel this way.

With Clark, he could support our numerous Southern Senate candidates and perhaps provide them a kind of coattail effect. He totally negates Bush on Bush's very best issue. He also peels-off significant portions of the GOP's constituency - the military community, security moms and dads, some nascar dads, etc. Clark also has a greater chance for party unity in 2004.. he hasn't widely insulted portions of the party as Dean has. And I'm not referring to the flag comments - I'm referring to the bitterness that other candidates' supporters might feel towards Dean after how he's regarded the "Washington insider" candidates. Clark's been a very upstanding gentleman throughout this entire campaign, not attacking when he could - and we need the party as unified as possible against the danger in D.C.

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Dean (just as I have one for Al Gore). And I feel like a bad man for changing my primary preference, and I'll support Dean as though my life depends on it should he get the nomination - but I'd feel infinitely worse if I didn't take the very best shot at taking my country back.

Goodbye, Spongebob avatar.. I'll see you again on November 3, 2004.

[frank frankly]

1. well said and understandable

I am hopeful for a Dean/Clark ticket. Clark has been unbelievably good the last two weeks. He is fantastic.

[boxster]

13. While Dean has already changed the way future campaigns will operate,

Clark's recent performance could be equally as change-inducing. If he wins the nomination, it will alter the conventional wisdom regarding campaign length.

His past couple of weeks have been pretty amazing, and it's going to be interesting to see if he can maintain the quality of his position statements, etc.

[michaelbmoore]

157. Dean and Clark HAVE CHANGED

Things! Let's not forget that. Both of these men have made a real contribution to the process just by having the guts to stand up and be counted. Regardless of how the Dean and Clark campaigns work out in the lets remember that the grassroots can make a difference. The right says that the left and center will never work together. That by pitting the left and center against each other over trivia that they can continue to rob this nation blind!

Let the grassroots speak and be heard!

(hey that was goofy, but I believe it)

[robsul82]

2. Whatever you feel, good sir.

No ill feelings. See you back on the other side for Dean/Clark '04, baby! ;)

Later.

RJS

[MIMStigator]

3. I hear ya man....went thru same thing

Decided the last thing I want is to be crying in my beer the day after election day saying WHY DID WE NOMINATE DEAN?

[Closer]

4. I'm sorry you feel that way

It's unfortunate.

Perhaps in the midst of buying buttons, recruiting folks and attending rallies, you somehow missed a central theme of the Dean campaign and that is: You Gotta Believe!

I'm sorry to hear you don't. But perhaps we'll have you back again come August helping us win the White House.

[dobak]

5. I changed from Dean to Clark

I switched about a week before he announced.

Like you said:

- Clark will put Bush on the defensive and make him spend money where he otherwise would not need too.

- Takes away the foreign policy angle from Bush

- Southerner

- etc....

[La_Serpiente]

6. I've been torn over the same issue

I was hardcore for Dean when he came out and criticized the war.

However, I am now in the neutral territory.

I was for Dean, then I was drifting to Kerry. Then I drifted away from Kerry and now I am split between Dean and Clark.

And I am a pretty active Deanista as well.

So now, I am just stuck between the two.

[Closer]

12. Do your research

on both men. Do it well.

Then, I promise you, you'll have your answer.


Remember this, too: this is about more than taking back the White House. This is about taking back our Party. If we don't recapture the Party, it doesn't matter WHO gets in the White House. Maybe you don't realize the importance of this now, but you will.

[MIMStigator]

18. It's about more than taking back the White House????

No it ain't. Not this time.

[Closer]

25. And I'd argue

that the typical DU-Clark supporter agrees with you on this.

While the typical Dean supporter sees how crucial both fights are.

Very telling. Something I hope the original poster will take notice of.

[MIMStigator]

30. And the typical Nader supporter thought.....

we could afford to lose the White House to save the party. Look how that worked out in 2002.

the typical Clark supporter knows saving the party means ELECTING A DEMOCRAT TO THE WHITE HOUSE....and wants to make sure it happens

[Renew Deal]

79. My thoughts exactly.

I think we are going to save the party a different way. I am hoping that all of these new people (most of us) will get involved in day to day local politics in our hoods. That's how we can really make a difference strarting Jan 21, 2005.

[CWebster]

118. Nader wasn't a Democrat

Dean is.

Is Clark?

[Bread and Circus]

110. No, I disagree...

This is about both the soul of the nation
and the soul of our party.

If Clark wins it all here are advantages he
brings to the party:

1.) We will no longer have a leg down on security issues.
2.) We can "own" the flag just as much as the next party.
3.) We will have proven our patriotic chops and support
for our troops by electing one and then effectively
bringing them home.
4.) We will further prove our merit as academics, poets,
scientists, and philosophers as Clark can fit that
bill more than Bush or even many of the other Dem
Candidates.
5.) Clark is a grassroots candidate, actually being lifted
from private life to serve. Having an outsider with
great credentials win would prove that anyone, not
just career politicians, can be President.
6.) Clark has a international sensitivity
that rivals or surpasses any President in the last
100 years.
7.) Clark comes from a middle class background.
8.) Clark has had to work for every success he has received.
He has always been the underdog. He even overcame a
stuttering issue he developed when his father died
when he was 4 years old.
9.) Clark is an affront to the good ol' boy network.
10.) Clark is a religious fusion candidate: 1 part
Presbyterian, 1 part Catholic, 1 part Baptist,
and had a Jewish biological father. He brings
a broad base of faith and not indoctrination
to the fore for those to whom this matters.
11.) Clark can bring our party Independents and "Clark
Republicans".
12.) Clark has the diplomacy skills to "change minds"
and not only bring people into the party but to
show them the light of a progressive way of seeing.
13.) You can email all your Republican friends and say:
"Clark took 4 bullets for this country. Bush went
AWOL. Clark was Valedictorian. Bush was class clown
and town drunk. There is no comparison..." and they
can't say anything, not a word. He is like the
antidote for Bush-poison. It's like shooting fish
in a barrel.
14.) If Clark stays true to his word and stays away from
negative campaigning against other dems, it will
be unifying for our party and shows the jerks of
politics "how it is done" if you have a real candidate.
15.) Clark reads 2 books per week and has a fascination with
science. He wanted to be an astronaut. Bottom line:
he has an imagination. That would be nice if we want
bold a future of universal health care, a clean environment,
and 100% renewable U.S. made energy.
16.) Clark's career and his successes can be a role model
for youngsters. He didn't party, he studied.
17.) Being in the military, Clark has had valuable experience
working right along with young adults and minorities.
He has translated this into profound support of Affirmative
Action.
18.) Clark is definitely not Politics as usual.
19.) Clark has stood up with intelligent and detailed
words to rebuke and put the light on the Bush regime.
He has talked about trigger locks, affirmative action,
unwavering support for choice, MIC, the treachery of
being an empire yet to fall, and so forth. He has
been a clear alternative to Bush. I still can't understand
why he said nice things about those in the administration...
but I think he is sometimes perhaps too diplomatous and
generous (he's an optimist). I think ultimately he wanted
to share his ideas (which haven't changed) on foreign
policy in order to make a difference. He can represent
that our party is the party of reason and non-partisanship.
20.) Clark is good looking, well spoken, and charismatic. He
doesn't make you want to throw a shoe at the TV. It's
not a bad asset for our party to have a good looking,
fair-minded, but resolute statesmand and scholare represent
us.

So, that's 20 reasons why Clark can not only help rejuvinate
and improve our party, he can help take it back from the brink.

[CWebster]

That crap

Clark didn't even know whether he was a Democrat until moments ago on the political calender.

[Bread and Circus]

124. That's a hackneyed canard people roll out everytime...

they want to bash Clark (with no good purpose in mind).

[CWebster]

141. Call it what you want, it is the truth.

His only record is in the military. And it isn't a unblemished one.

As a Democrat, who can't help but notice that military solutions WHICH CLARK IS ON THE RECORD for cheering on, have been a disaster, not only draining the treasury- but unneccesarily putting our young in harm's way, Clarks's expertise may not be the solution to what ails us.

[OKNancy]

143. Thanks for keeping this thread kicked

I love to see someone who has the good sense to support Clark!

Thanks again

[CWebster]

149. Why should that scare me?

[Clark Can WIN]

225. Because it's delivered by a freakin' SOONER

Anybody else (including Huskers as myself)

SHOULD BE SCARED

[Terran]

152. Not true

Clark is an academic also. I'm beginning to feel that that combination--the real world experiences of going from combat to managing NATO, plus the intellectual rigor he demonstrates as an educator, are a hell of a good combination.

I'm not committed yet, and I have supported Dean for a long long time now, but I guess I'm becoming a "typical" Clark supporter--I want someone who can beat Bush, period. And I want someone who appears to be smart enough to be able start a process of cleaning up the disaster that is the Bush administration. Frankly, I think that Clark's executive experience is probably better and far more challenging than Dean's has been.

Dirk

[CWebster]

164. Beat Bush...

He couldn't stand up to the mildest questions during the debate without looking cowed, and his answers are weak and unsubstantial.

All image, no formula.

[bearfartinthewoods]

239. can the truth be a hackneyed canard ?

i guess so...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

217. Rather a new Democrat than an old Democrat that acts like a Republican!

:evilgrin:

[CWebster]

117. It Depends on what end of the spectrum the Dean supporters

hail from. The progressives are more nuanced and conscious of the broader political implications, whereas centrists are more susceptible to "electibility" sales pitches and are less concerned on changing the Democratic party landscape. Clark supporters are less informed, more traditionally conservative and driven mostly by dislike of Bush.

[Bread and Circus]

121. Ad hominem attacks on those who aren't....

die-hard Dean supporters.

"Clark supporters are less informed, more traditionally
conservative...."

In my case, you couldn't be farther from the truth:

I support National Health Care
I support decriminalizing drugs
I support 100% renewable alternative green energy (U.S. harvested)
I support an international Department of Peace (a la Kucinich)
I read The Nation and The Progressive religiously
I oppose crony Capitalism and the corrupt MIC
I support 100% public funded education from cradle till
master's degree

I am not "Mr. Democrat" or "Mr. Progressive" but I am
no DINO or ill-informed disillusioned Republican.

I like Clark because he is an amazing man and would make
an amazing President (among the other 20 reasons I listed
as well as many more.)

[CWebster]

142. And then there are those

who are swept up in the cult of personality and project all sorts of messiah images on their chosen one only to abandon all their better judgement on the issues.

[Renew Deal]

146. Are you talking about Dean?

Is that why Dean can do no wrong in your eyes?

[CWebster]

151. I have been openly critical of Dean and complimentary to Clark

...and you?

[DemExpat]

153. But you are still 'superior' because

you are more informed, know the 'truth', and are not so taken in by personality and statemanship like Clark supporters are.....

As long as you believe this.....and it makes you feel good about yourself...

DemEx

[CWebster]

165. Because of what?

that I don't jump on the latest flag-waving bandwagon selling the image of what sells? Wait till they release the hounds.

Sorry, I ain't buying no trumped up DLC puppet. I'll go with the peoples' choice.

[DemExpat]

170. No, because you cannot refrain from putting down

supporters of other strong candidates.

The winner will be the people's choice - hopefully..

DemEx

[Clark Can WIN]

226. High five

[Clark Can WIN]

40. I happen to agree closer

Do your research well, and then I believe you will have your answer and that answer will be Clark.

Clark is a better Democrat at heart than Dean I believe. Anyone can hang a D on their door, I think Zell Miller proves that. Between Deans stance on automatic weapons and medicare and his total apparent lack of understanding about southern america...........

He's a good guy overall but not a President.

tedoll78 :
If you want some good solid Democratic stands on things like Education, healthcare and affermative action by General Clark going back into the 90's email me.

[HFishbine]

132. Say Whaaaaa?

"Between Deans stance on automatic weapons and medicare..."

What are Dean's positions on automatic weapons and medicare? Do you know?

[lastliberalintexas]

201. Umm,

you might want to check into your guy's stand on guns, since he and Dean have essentially the same positions on gun control. In fact, that's one of the things I actually like about Clark.

[roguevalley]

67. I am old enough to remember a lot of dems saying the same thing and

we ended up with Nixon. You haven't lived until you've
lived with Nixon.

[Julien Sorel]

91. ROFL

That sounds like a freakin' campaign slogan!!!!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

68. exactly. Look at Dean's record as governor

Then look at Clark's record serving the country in the US Army, since he was 18 years old. Then decide. :)

[ryharrin]

97. Exactly, Dean all the way.

I don't want someone who's been fighting wars his whole life leading this country. Not that I wouldn't vote for Clark, he's just not near the top of my list.

[SahaleArm]

74. The future of this country...

that's what's at stake; it crosses party lines and political ideology. Everyone needs to keep their eyes on the prize, regardless of which candidate they support.

[blessedleader]

211. I went from Dean to Clark

I did my research. . . Dean's a chimp!

[rucky]

41. I'm Exactly Where You Are

Leaning Clark at the moment. Most recent thoughts:

GOP Strategy to handle Dean: Jump on every word he says. We could survive that, but it wouldn't take any votes away from *. And the nation wouldn't be any less polarized under a Dean presidency.

GOP Strategy on Clark: Ignore him & he'll go away.

But if Clark doesn't go away, the GOP has no Clark strategy. They'd be screwed. He's careful with his words, and any attacks on his character would be more obviously unfounded, given his record of service. If criticising Kosovo is the best shot they can take so far...Bring it On!

Dean has given the most inspiring speeches, IMO, but he always seems to be having to explain himself. This leads me to believe that he may not be the great communicator we regard him as - in the bigger picture.

I want a guaranteed whoop-ass next year. Clark stumbled at first, but I see him starting to hit his stride. Alot can happen in the next few months, so I'm not saying anything but what my feelings are right now.

[Eloriel]

88. Dean is always having to explain himself

because he's the front runner and his opponents keep jumping on garbage to make issues out of nothing.

What distresses me so much about the arguments I'm reading here is that they prove that the rightwing talking points are working. You guys have bought into the "unelectable," and "Rove will decimate him" spin. THAT's no way to win elections.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone who can stand up to the bullshit as well as Dean. They are going to try to savage whoever is the nominee. Get it? Dean's the best fighter.

The other thing that disturbs me about these arguments is that they display a shocking lack of understanding about what's going on in the Dean campaign. What other candidate had people out canvassing in GEORGIA this past weekend? Is Clark going to get (probably) two major union endorsements -- AND their foot soldiers -- next week?

Who's unbought, and doing so well he HAS to opt out of matching funds or stop fundraising altogether?

It's way beyond my comprehension that anyone who says they once supported Dean, and posts at DU (which I've usually considered among the most well-informed group of people on the internet), could conceivably think Clark even has a chance. At this point, he doesn't.

And jeez. That doesn't even get into his record at all. Oh my. Not only will he be savaged over a good bit of it, it proves (to me), that he's wrong for America. Way wrong.

I just don't get it all. Never will. Closest I can come: ignorance is bliss.

Eloriel

[workenstiff]

106. Dean's the best fighter.

"Dean's the best fighter."
This is the reason he can win. This and our huge grassroots volunteer numbers and fundraising ability.

Remember 2,000,000 x $100 = a Bush sized War Chest to get Howard "Harry Truman" Dean heard.

[CWebster]

123. Yeah and here is their plan

they need Dean's troops to work for their man. LOL!LOL!

[DemBones DemBones]

137. There's a REASON that "Dean is always having to explain himself"

You explain it this way:

"because he's the front runner and his opponents keep jumping on garbage to make issues out of nothing."

His opponents don't "make issues out of nothing," though. They simply take the issues Dean gives them. The "garbage" they jump on is made up of the words and actions of Howard Dean himself. In recent days he's badly mishandled the controversy that arose from his own comments about the Confederate flag, publicly declared himself a "metrosexual," (and then tried to explain that he's really a regular guy), and told a Jacksonville, Florida, audience that Southerners need to stop basing their votes on "race, guns, God, and gays."

At this point, I think Howard's running out of feet to shoot himself in.

We can't win with Dean. And I honestly believe we'd be sorry if we did.

[Guaranteed]

138. Please.

Dean's opponents are so desperate. The guy hasn't done a damned thing wrong, you just want SO badly to believe he has.

[CWebster]

144. Then there is that big hump Kerry just can't get over

Being Kerry.

[TLM]

198. Funny how Clark supporters keep trying to make hay out of Dean's words...

Yet they have to hack them apart and dig back for years o find quotes to try and spin.


Yet ask those supporters about CLark fundraising for republicans and saying Reagan and Bush were great leaders... and suddenly they do a total 180 and claim that what a guy says doesn't matter and that was two years ago so it is history.


"In recent days he's badly mishandled the controversy that arose from his own comments about the Confederate flag,"

No he hasn't. Cowards like Clark and Kerry and edwards who are losing are trying hard to create a controversy where there is none. Dean has been saying the confederate flag line for 10 months... so this sudden offense is so transparent.


"publicly declared himself a "metrosexual," (and then tried to explain that he's really a regular guy),"

Can you cite the full quote... no you can;t because doing so make it very clear DEan was joking around. And the fact you lie about something that was clearly a joke, is exactly what is meant by making issue out of nothing.


"and told a Jacksonville, Florida, audience that Southerners need to stop basing their votes on "race, guns, God, and gays."

And that's wrong how? They do need to stop voting that way and vote for their shared goals. Do you not agree with that, or is it you want a candidate who is too much of a coward to tell the truth?



"At this point, I think Howard's running out of feet to shoot himself in."


As is clearly evident by his fundraising and the fact he continues to climb in the polls.

"We can't win with Dean. And I honestly believe we'd be sorry if we did."

I'm amazed you can even type the word "honestly" without your keyboard bursting into flames.

[_NorCal_D_]

172. I haven't bought into

any RW garbage, it's the sad truth. Dean would have an incredibly difficult time claiming any swing states, that is unless he touts his A+ NRA rating and state's rights ideology.

After his flag comment, you can bet that the RW spin machine will use it against him to discourage prospective Dean supporters down South.

This is one election we cannot afford to lose. If Shrub were to win a second term, we would know nothing but war and despair for another 4 years. This is why I fully support Clark. B-)

[CWebster]

120. Should Clark become the frontrunner

they will rip the big strong General to shreds.....Mary! Mary!

[WoodrowFan]

178. just another cheap shot

typical. Clark makes a joke and you use it to bash him. Why would I ever expect anything else?

[TLM]

200. Clark wasn;t making a joke.... he was asking to be reminded

what his position was... because he had flip floped so much, even he wasn't sure where he stood.

That's what happens when your message changed 180 degrees based on who your audience is.


If Dean had gone to a republican fundraiser and said Reagan and Bush were great leaders to whom we should all be greatful... you Clark supporters would be screaming for his head on a pike.

Yet Clark gets a pass because of those shiny stars.


If Edwards had previously worked as a lobbyist for a fucking defense contractor, you Clark supporters would want him run out of DC on a rail.

Yet Clark gets a pass because of those shiny stars.

If Lieberman had come out and said he thought it was OK to target and murder journalists in a war, you Clark supporters would be demanding his resignation.

Yet Clark gets a pass because of those shiny stars.



Clark is a fraud. There is nothing liberal about this war criminal but his script... and I am amazed how his supporters ignore all these red flags because he's a general and he can win. I'm starting to think if ROve suddenly said he was a dem, you people would line up to support him too... because who better to beat Rove, than Rove!

[CWebster]

206. Nice, TLM

Damn.... My hero.

[DemExpat]

210. Clark 'gets a pass' (as you call it) because he was in the military

- non-partisan military serving his COUNTRY - not the Democratic or Republican party.

This intelligent, insightful, experienced leader is anything BUT a fraud.
Certainly he is more liberal than many lifelong Dems.

Learn to see beyond your awfully confining stereotypes, and you might be surprised at how the 'truth' can set you free!

At least try to refrain from belittling Clark supporters for their well-thought-out and heartfelt preferences and choices. It does no service to you or your candidate by being so demeaning to others.

DemEx

[TLM]

228. Can you name some other liberals who thing murdering journalists is OK?

"- non-partisan military serving his COUNTRY - not the Democratic or Republican party."

He has been out of the military for years. He had no problem showing his partisanship in 2001 when he went to a REPUBLICAN FUND RAISER and said:

"We were really helped when President Ronald Reagan came in. I remember non-commissioned officers who were going to retire and they re-enlisted because they believed in President Reagan."

"That's the kind of President Ronald Reagan was. He helped our country win the Cold War. He put it behind us in a way no one ever believed would be possible. He was truly a great American leader. And those of us in the Armed Forces loved him, respected him, and tremendously admired him for his great leadership."



"President George Bush {sr}had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush {sr} for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship."


Now you tell me honestly, even if it wasn't at a republican fund raiser, if Dean came out today and said that he felt Reagan was "truly a great American leader" and that "we will always be grateful to President George Bush {sr} for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship." How would you react?

You people are freaking out because Dean mentioned the confederate flag. Yet Clark says that two of the worst republican criminals to ever stain the white house, to whom he would now have us believe he is diametrically opposed, were great leaders. Do you agree with him?

Honestly do you believe Reagan and Bush were great leaders? Did you believe it in 2001? Clark apparently did... unless he was lying to them. In fact either he WAS lying to them or he IS lying to us, because you don't have a philosophical 180 like that in 2 years, and besides he claims he voted for Clinton in 92 and 96 and Gore in 2000. So obviously he was already a democrat for a decade in 2001, or so he says.

So we end up with two possibilities... Clark either was a democrat who simply lied his ass off to a bunch of republicans at a fundraiser because they paid him to speak. Or he is a republican, or at least not a democrat, and he's lying his ass off to us.

I mean seriously, if that really is Clark’s idea of great leadership, how can we even consider him as the leader of the Democratic Party and the country? That would be like saying Karl Rove is a great example of honesty. It would be worse if he was telling the truth and really believed that, than if he was lying… but even if he was lying that’s still really bad. Because it shows him to be a total two faced liar who’ll tell a crowd what they want to hear if the check is big enough.


"This intelligent, insightful, experienced leader is anything BUT a fraud."

The example above proves otherwise, and that doesn't even get into Clark working as a lobbyist or saying he feels it is OK to murder journalists.


"Certainly he is more liberal than many lifelong Dems."


As demonstrated by what? Killing 1500 civilians and wounding 10,000 more in Kosovo by intentionally targeting civilians? His fundraising for republicans? His praise of Reagan and Bush's oh so progressive and liberal and socially just leadership?

What has he done, DONE not said, to demonstrate he is in fact a liberal? Can you even show what liberal things he's done since getting out of the military? I need to see more than just a words from a script. So far Clark says all the right things... but that's all he does, is say the right things. What he has DONE and what he has said before, really make his words now meaningless.


"At least try to refrain from belittling Clark supporters for their well-thought-out and heartfelt preferences and choices."

Then please do tell me your well thought out reason for supporting a man who openly defended having targeted and murdered journalists, worked as a lobbyist using his military experience to advise defense contractors(just like Cheney and Halliburton)and whose idea of great leaders are Bush and Reagan?

So please, prove me wrong. Show me the great reason to vote for this guy other than “he can beat W.” No shit he can beat W, half the guys running can beat W, but I don’t trust Clark.

Now for example, I think Kerry is a political phony, but I have no doubt he is on our side. He’s a dick and he’s got some positions I disagree with, but he is no doubt a democrat. The same with Lieberman, there’s a lot of his positions I disagree with, but he too is a democrat. If either Kerry or Lieberman got the nomination I would vote for them.

But not Clark. I do not trust that man one bit… and every time I watch him avoid an answer to a direct question by spewing these garbage platitudes and sound bytes, saying nothing specific, that mistrust grows.

[DemExpat]

241. No, I can't think of any liberals, including Clark, who think

murdering journalists is fine and dandy....

Please take a long hard look at history, TLM, and tell me if there is ANY leader - be it military or political - who has had to make tough decisions in time of war and conflict without causing the deaths of innocents.

Besides someone like Ghandi, I see in history - especially looking at the US - leaders of great powers who can ALL be branded with the war criminal tag by SOME factions.

I am also 100% certain that your favorite candidate for President would also find him/herself in this unhappy group of 'criminals' after a few years in office.

A good politician is also very diplomatic and non-partisan whenever possible - 'sucking up' to people of all ideologies and persuasions.
That's what they DO. I could not do this, but I'm not a politician or a leader.

I might not like how the world is put together, but I've learned that totally black and white the world is not, and that the best way to sail through and try to make a better world is to try to bring opposites together, to try to make peace with the least amount of victims. I've learned to trust my intuition about people, and my intuition says that Wes is the real deal.

Just because people do not see the world through your eyes and your filters does not make us uniformed, in denial, terrified, or hero-worshipping.

I also accept that in our world governments will need to develop methods of security that are not all that democratic and respectful of rights and privacy. If Wes was called to consult on these issues because of his intelligence and experience, I can only be thankful that someone with his ideas and real concerns is up there to keep an eye on things.

I respect your ideas and feelings about candidates, and hope you do the same for others.

DemEx

[ginchinchili]

222. Support Clark

I strongly urge you to throw your support behind Clark. Dean can't win. Can you imagine the republicans running an ad where Dean is proclaiming that he "represents the Democratic wing of the Democratic party"? That would turn off just enough people to give Bush the election. Dean comes across as too liberal and to angry. I personally don't think he's either, but it doesn't matter what I think. Clark can bring in the independents and moderate republicans. I know for a fact that he already has brought in many from both groups. And the thing is, Clark is qualified and could very well prove to be one of the best presidents we've had in a long time. He's also respected internationally and would go along way in winning back respect for the United States. He can do it.

[xultar]

7. Don't give up on Dean yet...

I'm a Clark Supporter and we'd love to have you!

BUT - There's always a big BUT isn't there

Keep your options open and simply focus on the issues close to your heart. They will lead you to the right candidate. Don't support begrudgingly. You need to be enthusiastic about your candidate. If and when someone energizes you like Dean did or Dean may continue to do, support that candidate. People you talk to in the course of your political activities between now & 2004 will base their part of their decision on their candidate by how their enthusiastic their supporters are and now sincere they are.

Hang in there...we still got a long way to go!

[Guaranteed]

108. Not "yet?" He hasn't even done anything wrong.

Dean's just getting started, here. The people that are jumping ship are just wussing out. They don't have the nerve for it. Look at this guy's post- he's just scared.

[RandomUser]

180. I think you're misreading the original post

The original poster is not switching just because he's scared.

With Clark, he could support our numerous Southern Senate candidates and perhaps provide them a kind of coattail effect. He totally negates Bush on Bush's very best issue. He also peels-off significant portions of the GOP's constituency - the military community, security moms and dads, some nascar dads, etc. Clark also has a greater chance for party unity in 2004.. he hasn't widely insulted portions of the party as Dean has. And I'm not referring to the flag comments - I'm referring to the bitterness that other candidates' supporters might feel towards Dean after how he's regarded the "Washington insider" candidates. Clark's been a very upstanding gentleman throughout this entire campaign, not attacking when he could - and we need the party as unified as possible against the danger in D.C.


You may or may not agree with him. But it is disingenious to say he's switching just because he was scared into it. We former Dean supporters weren't "scared" or "blinded" or "bamboozled" into anything. You may not agree with us, but at least give us credit for thinking our choices through and making an honest decision.

[xultar]

199. You are right...I was going to respond last night but I was tooo angry

[RandomUser]

214. It's understandable

I get annoyed too whenever they imply that we're blinded by the four stars. To say that we can't think properly just because we don't happen to support their candidate -- what gall! I can't understand how they must denigrate the intelligence of anyone who doesn't agree with their choice of candidate.

This is why I find Clark's refusal to bash other Dems to be a huge positive compared to the negative self-righteous smears from the other campaigns.

Clark is the man I trust to sit in the oval office. An honest, decent, smart, and tolerant person.

So, people like these rabid Clark bashers may go on smearing and pissing in the pools of all the other candidates. But when the other candidates drop out, their supporters will gravitate to Clark, not Dean.

[Justice]

8. Appreciate Your Honesty and Openness

There is definitely a groundswell of support on DU for Clark -- the whole mood has been changing. What I like about your post is you are pro-Clark -- not anti-Dean.

[dfong63]

9. you're giving Clark way too much credit

all the positive things you say about Clark are speculative, based on beliefs not hard facts. Clark still has no electoral record.

he hasn't widely insulted portions of the party as Dean has.

i disagree. i think his initial coyness about whether he was or wasn't a democrat was very insulting. as is the idea that he can be the leader of the dems after fundraising for the GOP only a couple years ago.

don't give up on Dean. he's running a magnificent campaign that has now negated the much-ballyhooed bump that Clark got from months of flirting. the honeymoon with Clark is over, and he's sinking.

[Closer]

20. Spot On DFONG

[Clark Can WIN]

48. I'm sure this has been explained to you BUT

just in case you missed class that day we'll go over it again.

Coyness about whether he was a Democrat:
Asinine dishonesty at worst, uninformed regurgitated falsehood at best.

The armed forces was not designed to be nor should it be a partisan institution.

Wesley Clark spent much of his Adult life in the non partisan entity that is the American Military.

There was absolutely no reason whatsoever for Wes Clark to declare his Democratic leanings UNLESS he planned to enter partisan politics.


If you think that the .0000005% of the Democratic base that will base their decision upon, or HELL even remember that Clark was a non-partisan before he declared Democrat in any way outshadows the number of southern voters who will be soured on Dean by the flag flap - that says you are just as in tune as Dean was on Rock the Vote.

[TLM]

202. He lied about being registered dem...

then he supporters tried to play it off as just "paperwork."

Clark wasn't in the military when he was fundraising for republicans in 2001 or working as a lobbyist for defense contractors and aicxom.

Clark had been out of the miltiary for YEARS, so this crap about him not being in the party because of the miltiary is pure bullshit and you know it.

He sure wasn't worried about looking partisan when he was saying how great Reagan and Bush were at that republican fundraiser.

Then he wouldn't say if he was a dem or not until he was ready to declare his run. For that alone he'll not get my vote. I want someone who is proud to be a democrat... not someone who is keeping quite until he sees who has the best offer for him.

There is no excuse for Clark not saying he was a dem 6 months ago or 10 months ago. Either he was being quite to see if the repukes had a better offer for him, like a VP replacement for cheney, or he was ashamed of beig a democrat and didn;t want to say.

Either is reason not to vote for the perfumed prince.

[boxster]

224. Link, please. He never said he was registered as a Democrat.

He stated that he was an Independent, primarily because he was non-partisan while in the military.

He voted for Clinton twice and Gore. That's more than your 6-10 months, TLM. Try 12 years.

Besides, would a Republican publicly state that military hospitals should provide abortion services? I think not.

[TLM]

229. His campaign did...

http://www.politicsus.com/front%20page%20archive/091803.html

Clark told CNN's Judy Woodruff earlier this month that he had decided to register as a Democrat. Left unsaid and unknown at this point is exactly when and why he decided to become a Democrat.



http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2003/nf2003101_0874_db038.htm

"A Clark campaign spokesman at first told BusinessWeek that the former general had in fact updated his voter registration to reflect his newfound status as a Democrat. But a call to the Pulaski County Voter Registrar indicated otherwise. When asked to explain the discrepancy, campaign consultant Mark Fabiani says Clark hadn't yet had time to register as a Democrat. "



"He stated that he was an Independent, primarily because he was non-partisan while in the military."


"He voted for Clinton twice and Gore. That's more than your 6-10 months, TLM. Try 12 years."

Yet he was out of the military in 2001 he was speaking at a republican fundraiser about the great leadership of reagan and Bush Sr. THat's 2 years ago, not 12.

And there is proof that he said what he said about Reagan and Bush... the same can not be said for how he voted.

[boxster]

242. Get your facts straight....

You did not say, "a Clark spokesman lied", you said, "He lied about being registered dem".

He didn't lie about being a Democrat. He never stated anything other than the fact that he was an Independent. But, you posted it anyway, even though you knew it was a false statement. I guess that means you lied about Clark lying just to make a point, hmm?

Are we to equate everything each candidate's supporters say as proof of his/her candidate lying now?

If that's the new standard, they're all in trouble.

Re: the Arkansas speech - did you ever bother to actually read it? The Reagan/Bush I crap was so obviously pandering to the audience and a very, very small part of the speech itself.

Obviously, it would be better for your argument if you didn't read it, so I really don't expect you to.

[moz4prez]

10. if only you (all) knew the power

of the Clark side . . .

[Closer]

17. LMAO

[Julien Sorel]

19. LOL

As a confirmed Vaderite, I have to say that's funny.

[robsul82]

22. That is humorous...

...I must say.

Later.

RJS

[incapsulated]

11. Welcome aboard!

Welcome to the PNAC conspiracy! We'll be sending you the talking points as soon as we've researched your background!

Heh.

Seriously, I agree with your reasons for switching. I think they are rational and fair. I will confess right here that in the distant past I started out as one of the earliest Dean supporters, but worries about the general election and Clark's entry changed my mind. And remember, a Dean/Clark, Clark/Dean ticket is a very real possibility, so that would make the transition smoother.

There is no reason to feel bad, though I understand. I value loyalty. But these are politicians, after all, and they won't really cry themselves to sleep if you switch candidates. All that matters is that we all support the eventual nominee, whoever he is, and get the Chimp out of the Whitehouse.

[Cha]

14. Sorry to lose your avid support for Dean!

I always enjoyed what you had to say concerning Dean and our Campaign. Dean is going to Win! And we're getting Stronger everyday! See you at the inaugeration.

[Redneck Socialist]

15. How many people here have Clark and Dean...

...as their top choices? Right now I am leaning Dean but Clark is a close second, with Edwards hanging out a distant third.

I admire Dean's passion and anger, but like yourself I see Clark as a very electable candidate.

[Padraig18]

122. Yo!

Dean/Clark is my 'dream ticket', although I wouldn't cry too much or too long if it were Clark/Dean. I think those two represent our party's *best chance* to send the whole * administration packing, as well as helping to hold/pick up Senate and House seats.

[Donna Zen]

16. An added bonus...

Clark is a liberal.

[RandomUser]

190. That sealed the deal for me

He agrees with me on most issues :)

[TLM]

204. Sicne when is bombing journalists liberal?

Since when is saying Reagan and Bush were great leaders to whom we are all grateful, a liberal position?


Clark is liberal like Michael Jackson is white.

[shoopnyc123]

21. Yes I agree...

with everythhing you said. Dean, however, will forevermore be an effective part of a coherent Demo strategy...I wanna see Dean mud wrestle in a Demo administration with (1) Tom Daschle (whimp), and (2) Terry Macaul-whatever.

[MIMStigator]

26. Agree. Clark for Prez, Dean for DNC CHAIRMAN

Makes sense

[shoopnyc123]

32. DEANERATOR FOR DNC CHAIR!

DUH!

[MIMStigator]

34. The best use of his talents

whipping the party into shape. The ANGRIER THE BETTER

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. Trippi for DNC Chair

The great organization of the Dean campaign is due to Joe Trippi - he should be DNC chair.

[Justice]

109. Joe Trippi - Great Suggestion

[Julien Sorel]

61. I think Dean should also be president, or even CEO.

Of Ben & Jerry's.

[RandomUser]

184. Hmm...interesting concept

I haven't really given that much thought. But it's intriguing.

[david_vincent]

23. I've been leaning Clarkward lately too

Originally I felt that he can't possibly win, because he's a Catholic and he converted from Southern Baptist, so he alienates two big groups. But now it seems to me that Clark is the only Democratic candidate that the Republicans might actually fear. If Americans in general are fed up enough to put aside their religious prejudices and let the man's faith remain a private concern, then Clark could become the finest former professional soldier we've ever had in the White House.
I still believe that Dean has the inner fire to stand up to Governor Bush, though. Kerry would be a great president, but his personal charisma level is about on a par with Adlai Stevenson.

[CWebster]

129. Not so sure Phil Ochs

would buy your argument about endorsing professional soldiers. You need to drag out a couple of those old scratched up LPs and actually listen to the lyrics.

[RichardRay]

193. But I KNOW how Phil felt about liberals....

....who forget about winning and just want to feel good.

Clark/Dean is my top choice, I'll take Dean/Clark and ABB in the final analysis. I'd rather deal with my own demon than somebody else's.

[farmbo]

24. You definitely get the Pete Best Award ...for timing

(Pete Best was the drummer for the Beatles who left the group in 1962 over "artistic" differences...to be replaced by Ringo Starr, who...well, you know the story).

Dean garners the SEIU endorsement, freeing up 1.5 million campaign volunteers and millions of dollars in contributions...

AFSCME endorsement will (apparently) follow next week, with similar results...

New Zogby poll has Dean firmly in the lead-- nationally-- with Clark "slipping"...

And you trot out your vanity endorsement of General Clark.

:eyes:

[robsul82]

29. Pete Best Award...

:D

That is CLASSIC, lol.

Later.

RJS

[Closer]

31. Pete Best Award

ROFLMAO!

Perfect example of why I love Dean supporters so much.

[Julien Sorel]

36. Pete Best was fired, because he was too

pretty and had become the focus of the band. Paul and John didn't like that.

Tom Harkin got the union support in 1992. I like the guy, but his presidency didn't leave much of an impact on me. And Clark's 'slipping' was in line with MOE.

Other than that, there was nothing wrong with your post. Really.

[farmbo]

38. Pretty and trying to be the focus of the band...? Sounds like the General

...And of course, rewritten history now has Best telling everyone "I didn't quit...they fired me."

He bolted the band... at the wrong time...just as their surge began.

And just like teedol78.

:think:

[Julien Sorel]

39. In other words, like all Deanites,

you have nothing of substance to offer when challenged, although you tried: 're-written history.' Right. Thanks for playing.

[farmbo]

45. I suspect you aren't really interested in substance...since you ignore it

And engage in mindless stereotyping with "...like all Deanies".

Rich.

[Julien Sorel]

51. What substance?

You made a post that was full of inaccuracies; I corrected them, and in reply you talk about 're-writing history' when I'm quite certain anyone doing a web search could find out which one of us is right. Not only do you have nothing of 'substance' to offer; you lack the integrity to admit it when challenged.

[farmbo]

92. Ooo...Looks like somebody needs a nap...

Now I lack "integrity". We ARE in to character assination, aren't we?

No wonder you're turning off Clark supporters left and right on these boards.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

134. Billy is on a mission

I used to frequent another mixed site, Libertarians, Republicans, a few Progressives, Greens...

The Greens were the most politically astute---way ahead of the pack, well-researched, highly intellectual, but then there were the thugs, usually Libertarians, who hounded and bullied the Greens like white cops beating a poor Black kid.

It seems all so familiar to me BillyBunter--and why is it that they all had names with the intials BB? Not one for conspiracy theories, but just a coincidence? I couldn't help but notice.

[_NorCal_D_]

174. How strange

you would make that point. Dean strikes me as a luke-warm, blustering Libertarian. B-)

[economic justice]

46. You are rude

I haven't been posting here at DU for long, but I lurked for quite awhile. I have to say that your posts are consistently some of the rudest ever. I always get close to liking Clark a lot and get turned off by some of his supporters. You lead the list by a longshot.

[MIMStigator]

50. but do you LIKE CLARK

Isn't that the question

[Julien Sorel]

55. I give what I, and others, get.

And people who 'would like Clark except,' are a dime a dozen here, and have been for 4 or 5 months. None of them ever seem to quite get over the 'except,' and almost always turn out to be Deanites with an agenda. If you turn out to be anything but, you will be a first.

[economic justice]

58. See what I mean?

Actually, I have been looking at Gephardt, Edwards and Clark. Dean isn't even on my radar screen to be perfectly honest with you. I was simply commenting on how you do NOT do your candidate any good by being so rude.

[MIMStigator]

60. Some of us are.......

frustrated because we can see a winnable election slipping away if the wrong man for the wrong time is nominated.

If we are rude it is only because we despise the Bush junta.... hopefully that helps

[TLM]

209. In other words, if your guy can't get it...

you'll work hard to trip up the other guys with endless bullshit atttacks.

Thanks for admitting this is your agenda....

[DemExpat]

212. Pot calling kettle black......

:hi:
DemEx

[TLM]

230. Hey I've already said I'll vote for any of the DEMOCRATS running.

I'll even vote for Lieberman if he gets the nomination. So this has nothing to do with a Dean only position.


I will not support Clark because I do not trust him.

[incapsulated]

65. There are rude people in every camp

Paying too much attention to posts of DU'ers, even the good ones, isn't a good idea. We are all advocates and therefore biased. Do research on the candidates and make your choice based on your own opinions of the candidates themselves, not their supporters.

[Julien Sorel]

72. Then you have my apologies, and you really are a first.

However, 'rude' is a subjective word. Let's just say that I'm direct with people who are hardly shrinking violets in their own right, and many of them have issues with truth, as the guy above does, which is my idea of rudeness. And I find it hard to believe that someone would not choose Clark because of the 'rude' post above. :shrug:

By the way, Deanite or not, welcome to the board. Some of the people I'm 'rude' to have been abusively rude to new people here, simply because they support the wrong candidate. That's one of the things that made me to decide to let my 'rude' side out. ;-)

[incapsulated]

83. I don't think you were being rude, btw

You were responding to a rather rude remarks on both Clark and tedoll78.

[Julien Sorel]

103. Yes, but the guy seems to find me 'rude,'

while skipping over some other people (in particular the Deanite who kicked this bit of nastiness off, as so often happens), which is why I suspected, still do actually, that he's one of those people with an agenda. Ultimately, of course, who cares.

[bleedingheart]

168. Why would any candidate be the wrong candidate

people have a right to support whoever they choose.

I won't say that anyone is wrong in supporting their candidate. I may disagree with their choice but that doesn't make them wrong.

and what's with advertising Goldwater?

[CWebster]

171. for that matter

what's wrong with advertising Reagan?

[_NorCal_D_]

175. Some of these

discussions can get a little heated, but in general they remain civil. I hope that one individuals frustration doesn’t discourage you from considering Clark. B-)

[TLM]

208. You should know Clark's cousin is a poster here on DU...

and that's likely a reason behind why the Clark supporters here all seem to push the same memes at the same time and do nothing but attack Dean and his supporters. Dean is really doing the truly grass roots movement that Clark folks are trying to fool people into thinking Clark is doing.

Yet where is Clark's money coming from... does he even tell his supporters that information?


They can't post about why Clark is so great, because Clark own words and actions prove those statments to be false. These folks can not address the facts that Clark was raising money for republicans 2 years ago saying what great leaders Reagan and Bush were, that he worked as a lobbyist for acixom and got them the no-fly list database contract, he was in CSIS with Henry kissinger, the NED with Frank Carlucci, and worked for another defense contractor. They can't deny the fact Clark openly defended the war crime of targeting and murdering journalists in kosovo.

This man is not a liberal or a democrat. Clark is a fraud and anybody who bothers to look past the hype can see that. CLark has a good script, and that's it.

[DemExpat]

213. Endless past threads have recorded how Clark supporters

have a totally different view of the records of your so-called facts about Clark.
Do a DU search to refresh your memory, if you have been reading them all along......

The liberal, refreshingly less partisan and Democratic General Clark is a wonderful addition to the Democratic party, and hopefully he will go very far.

:kick:

DemEx

[elperromagico]

100. Oooh, Beatles history in a DU thread

Pete Best was fired by Brian Epstein, the Beatles manager, on behalf of the other Beatles (none of whom had the testicular fortitude to do it themselves). Apparently they felt he A. was getting too much attention, B. didn't fit in with the group mentally, and C. was a shitty drummer (the recordings of him playing bear this out).

All of the others Beatles freely admitted that Best was fired, and all expressed a certain degree of guilt over not having the guts to fire him personally.

He didn't quit. He was fired.

[farmbo]

159. Thanks for clarifying...bad timing nonetheless

:)

(And, not to worry, Clark will have his good days, also...I just couldn't resist the comparison, given Dean's good day yesterday)

[CWebster]

130. What can expect from someone who idealizes Rockefeller

and Sinatra.

What a joke.

[David Zephyr]

42. It Was Stuart Sutcliffe Who Was Pretty.

Very pretty.

[Bread and Circus]

111. Just because Dean is ahead now....

does not make him a better candidate.

Nor does it mean he has a good chance of beating Bush.

It's not impossible for Dean to beat bush but
electorally it is highly unlikely.

[DrFunkenstein]

27. Clark Is An Honorable Man

I'm not sure how his lack of domestic credentials will play out, but I would be thrilled to have him kick Bush's ass.

[sendero]

28. I tell ya...

... I'm a Dean supporter but when Clark speaks it is music to my ears. I pray for a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket, I think it would be truly unbeatable. They are really complementary, they both have great strengths but they are different strengths.

There is nothing wrong with changing your mind. People who don't ever change their mind probably don't have much of a mind to change :)

[annxburns]

33. I would love to see ...

... a Dean/Clark ticket. I'm beginning to think that Dean is tough enough to take on Bush, and Clark can add as VP or Sec of Defense.

I really like Clark but he is getting smeared by the right wing machine and he looks sort of "shocked". Politics is rough - Dean may be tough enough.

We'll see.

[Clark Can WIN]

35. I was a Dean supporter too

And that's the truth. That's how I ended up here. I was referred by another Dean supporter even though I had changed my allegiance by that time.

It's good to have you on board, and don't let anyone tell you that you don't have good reasons. Your reasons are yours and nobody has the right to tell you that your reasons are less valid than theirs.

I agree with you that ANY of our Dem candidates would make a far better President than the pResident we have now. I would vote for any of them. I also agree with you that Clark has a much greater chance for unity in O4 and that he is the only one I can see winning.

Hence the name. Clark Can WIN

[MIMStigator]

37. The reason for so many Dean to Clark conversions

we all thought Dean had the best chance against Idiotboy and he DID.....before Clark jumped in

[David Zephyr]

43. Well, You Are Not Straying Far.

:hi:

[retyred]

44. Way to go tedoll78

Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[moz4prez]

107. very nice picture

[eleny]

47. I was also a Dean supporter

And sent him a contribution. But I started to follow Clark during the draft and switched. I just have this rock solid feeling about Clark. I'll vote Dem no matter what. But Clark is my guy and it only grows stronger over time.

[SaintLouisBlues]

161. My story exactly, eleny

I gave $100 to Dean early on, and he's currently my number two.
I've given more to Clark and I've volunteered with the local campaign.

Eventually: "I serve at the pleasure of the Democratic nominee".

[elperromagico]

49. A very sensible post

I personally am inclined towards supporting one of the Clark-Kerry-Dean triumvirate. I think the three of them have the best chance of beating Bush.

But perhaps I'm in a different boat than you. The Arkansas primary isn't until 18 May, by which time the Dem field of candidates will have been considerably narrowed (if the nomination isn't a lock already). I can afford to spent the next seven months, therefore, contributing to my preferred candidates' campaigns and deciding which one I most want to see win the Democratic nomination.

[On the Road]

52. Frankly, I am Baffled by the "Dean Will Get Creamed" Belief

Maybe I'm missing something -- a lot of people seem to feel this way.

Presidential elections have to do largely with which candidate can project a presence and a set of beliefs that will galvanize more people. And which candidate will get branded and cornered by the media and the opposing party. Reagan was supposed to be too far to the right to win, but he didn't try to be a moderate. Instead, like it or not, he touched something in the electorate.

The lesson is: Don't become part of their movie -- make them part of your movie. Leads change, grow, and shrink. Al Gore was down by 18 points before coming back. It's the fighting ability that wins elections.

Dean is the only candidate who has shown he can do this. Everyone else will get Michael Dukakis-ed. Even Clark. Maybe especially Clark. He had that "deer in the headlights" look in the debates and I don't think he has the juice for a bruising, mud-slinging campaign. The people who are influenced by the uniform now are going to be just as influenced by the umpteen generals Bush will drag out saying what a prissy rat-fink general Clark was. He will appear a shadow of himself after the attack ads and negative campaigning.

Can Dean win at least the Al Gore states, including Florida? Of course. Has he been knocked off his lead by the increasing attacks? No -- he's gotten stronger. Has he drawn support only from anti-war white college students? No -- polls show it's across the board. And all the issues he brings up elicit the response "of course -- why isn't anyone else saying that?"

All the candidates would make good presidents. I wish more of the candidates would demonstrate that they have the ability to mount a winning campaign. But they haven't. Clark is wandering and letting his strong start slowly diminish. The rest of the candidates can't break out of the pack. Those qualities will not win next November. Dean will.

[andym]

59. Rove will attack Dean on character and patriotism.

If it's Dean/Clark,
they'll attack Dean on character:
portray him as an arrogant, unstable, hothead,
and then use every angry counter statement Dean
makes as proof. Dean will have to use humor, not
anger to counter this. I hope he can do it, otherwise
we will lose.


They'll also attack him on patriotism, with every Bush
criticism taken as being "against the troops" and
"weak on homeland security."

Clark as VP will blunt some of the patriotism
criticism but not all.

-----------------------
As far as Clark fending off Rove's attempt to make him
appear to be General Ripper from Dr. Strangelove, we'll see. For him, lots of appearances on general TV shows like Leno + Letterman,
showing off his sense of humor might help him defeat Rove.

[MIMStigator]

62. they also plan to use his wife against him

watch and see

[Justice]

113. Speaking of Dean's Wife

I have heard this from people in their 60s --

There is something about Dean's wife not campaigning with him. Why is Dean's wife not with him. What is going on with Dean's wife.

I understand she has a career - but for some people it is an issue.


And it is not sexist, people had equal qualms about our last governor's husband who was completely uninvolved in her political career - he lived 3 hours outside the capital with the children (all of whom where born while the governor was in office).

[On the Road]

64. Do You Think Those Attacks Will Work?

I don't. Dean has demonstrated more than a bit of teflon so far. Bush is no longer in a position to command the respect he did two years ago. Not many swing voters will equate criticism with lack of patriotism.

[MIMStigator]

69. unfortunately they will work

When you think something won't work just remember millions of moderates voted for Bush because of Gore's clothing

[Doctor_J]

75. Try this

if they trot out the "General Ripper" slam, I would consider something like, "George W. Bush proved he can start a war - Wesley Clark proved he can finish one".

[andym]

77. "General Ripper" can be defeated simply by Clark's likability

The image of "General Ripper" can be defeated simply by Clark's likability. He's a gentleman, and that comes across on TV.
He just needs to get out there ALOT and be himself.

[MIMStigator]

78. DAZZAYM!

send that one to the campaign

[Doctor_J]

80. I've sent them a bunch of things

including this one. I'm trying to get invited to the inaugural :-)

[Doctor_J]

85. Here's a couple more

i sent in

"If someone in my administration reveals the name of a CIA agent, he or she will be fired within an hour of when I find out about it, and probably stand trial".

"It is easy to tell that Mr. Bush is not a man of conviction - he seems to run away from or blame someone else for every decision that doesn't work out".

"Aircraft carriers are used to wage wars, not re-election campaigns"

[eleny]

90. Excellent!

[_NorCal_D_]

176. Excellent idea

"George W. Bush proved he can start a war - Wesley Clark proved he can finish one".
B-):thumbsup:

[TLM]

233. I think this is more accuarte...

" Wesley Clark proved he could get away with bombing civlians, George W. Bush proved he could get away with bombing even more."

[TLM]

232. Yeah but look what they did with hillary....

They'll attack no matter what Dean's wife does... you're letting them frame the debate already.

[andym]

73. Do I think the attacks will work?

Do I think the attacks will work?

Depends how cleverly they are done, and
how indirectly they are conducted.
The best ones contain just enough truth
to seem plausible to someone who doesn't know
what's happenning in the world. One thing is that
none of our candidates are "real" celebrities, they don't
have established public "personas" to save them from
being painted. (How do you think Schwarzenegger survived
the last minute negative press?)

None of our candidates have yet been subjected
to this kind of attack by the right wing press
acting as Rove's shills, so we won't know until
the summer.

But I am fearful.

I hope both Clark and Dean spend ALOT of time on
Leno/Letterman etc to register a likeable public
persona, before the primary season even begins.

[Bread and Circus]

235. They will also say Dean "wants to raise all of your taxes"

in addition to having no experience on foreign policy.

One-two punch.....10 count....we're out.

At least that's how I feel right now.

[TreasonousBastard]

238. Remember how they trashed McCain?

McCain and Dean have a lot in common-- fire in the belly uncompromising beliefs in some things, refusal to just suck up to the party line every time, the ability to fire up the voters...

They destroyed McCain's Presidential bid. Made him look like a madman who would take us to rack and ruin.

And he was one of their own. Took them no time at all to clear the way for Shrub and the Restoration.

If they get their hooks into Dean, it will be a bloodbath. They'll Dukakis and McCain him to death.

They've got the quotes, the whole record in Vermont, his life story, and the spin ready to go-- a liberal maniac who ran a tiny state into the ground. Doesn't make any difference if it's all lies, he's vulnerable to lies.

(Any pictures of Dean hanging out with Ben or Jerry?)

[elperromagico]

70. I think a lot of DUers

labor under the assumption that all voters care as much about politics as we do. They don't. A great many voters make their choices based on who "looks better," or who "seems nicer."

Bush has a lot of people who don't know anything about his policies, but who think he's a "nice guy." My mom is a certified Bush fan. She's nearing the age when she's eligible for Social Security, and is convinced that it won't be around much longer. When I attempt to explain to her that Bush and the Republicans are the ones raiding Social Security, she says, "No. The Democrats are doing that." There's a tone in her voice which suggests that she doesn't think a "nice guy" like Bush would do such a thing. The only thing she knows about Gore is that he "wanted to put stuff in a lockbox." I hardly think my mom's opinions are atypical.

It is this vast, uninformed part of the electorate that could do Dean the most damage in November 2004.

[Justice]

112. While You are "Baffling", Let Me Offer

A Few Thoughts.

First, Clark got sick out of the gate, and that slowed his momentum. He is back on track and coming on strong. Don't you worry, you'll be hearing plenty from him going forward. Clark has the juice alright!
Dean has been at this for a long long time (running). Clark has only just begun - Clark is doing just fine.

Second, I don't see Clark looking like a deer in headlights -- let me just say that Dean has and can be described in very unflattering ways. I prefer not to go there.

[CWebster]

135. Best post of the thread

;-)

[On the Road]

160. Thank You, CWebster

I really do like Clark, and I will campaign for him if he's the nominee. But I don't buy the idea that he's electable and Dean is not. Any of the major candidates can be elected if they successfully meet their personal challenges successfully.

[CWebster]

166. Dean has fought for this, taken the heat, taken the grief,

forged the way, stood his ground, built his campaign from the bottom, stood by his troops, raised millions in small donations, broken new ground and maintained momentum.

There is NO way I am abandoning that potential for the future for some pretty packaged candidate with poll-tested positions and DLC policy backers and funding.

You can fucking forget it.

[RandomUser]

53. I was once a Dean backer too

before Clark entered the race. You are certainly not alone in making this switch.

There was a Salon.com article from October that talked about lots of Dean supporters switching to Clark. You are not alone. The most interesting point of the article was that some of them switched because they thought Clark was more electable, but as they learned more about the general, they found themselves truly inspired. They came for the ABB, and stayed for the candidate.

Clark is truly a positive person, and the best suited for the challenge ahead.

Here's the link: http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2003/10/23/clark/


And welcome aboard, we're glad to have you. Being pro-Clark does not mean you have to be anti-Dean, though you will find many pro-Dean supporters (perhaps many you once sided with, and you've seen some of them in this thread) who will prove to be ardently anti-clark and attacking him at every turn.

Personally, I try to avoid bashing any other candidates, since I don't believe I need to in order to promote Clark. But many Dean supporters do not reciprocate the feeling.

[CMT]

56. Good bye

well miss you. But I know you'll work your tail off for Dean if he is nominated.

[chaska]

57. And another one.

I too supported Dean early on. But as soon as I saw that soon-to-be-legendary Meet the Press with the general I knew he was the one.

I try really hard not to criticize the other candidates, but I have to say (apologies, Deanites), Dean has a very off-putting personality. An awful lot of people vote based on likeability alone.

[Doctor_J]

63. I'd just about written off the election

and with it the US that I grew up in, until Clark jumped in. It's not just the fact that the Bushies are scared shitless of him. Let me count the ways:

1. I can't really see ANY Dem (except Zell, i guess) not busting his/her ass to get him elected. Everyone from Pelosi to Harkin to Bayh to Ford to Jesse Jr to Gephart will absolutely love campaigning for/with this guy. He's got the right positions on every issue. Dean just doesn't have Wes's charisma.

2. There will be alot of support, either overt or tacit, from a few of the more honorable Repugs. McCain was on CNN at dinner time, and actually seemed to do everything but endorse Clark Iraq plan over Rove's. People like Hagel, Lugar, and Specter will keep their voices down during the campaign.

3. The media will slobber all over this guy. Tweety gets a woody every time he talks with/about Clark. Of course Faux and Paula and a few other partisans will hold out for Smirk, but the mushy middle like Tweety, Aaron, Olberman, and Greenfield will be on Clark's side.

4. Lots of lapsed Dems will love voting for this guy - Southerners, vets, soldiers, JFK dems, Latinos. His positions on gays in the military, AA, environment, gun laws, reproductive rights/doctor-patient sanctity, and budgets will bring in scads of undecideds, wafflers, and strays. My parents are perfect examples of lapsed Dems who would come back in a heartbeat if Clark was atop the ticket.

5. He will have coattails in some of the swing southern states like FL, AR, AZ, LA. Dean would not.

'sabout it. There is no choice for me. If Clark is not nominated, I'll likely save my money to emigrate after Smirk wins (re)election.

[MIMStigator]

66. alot of people will give up if Clark

because they will think theyre wasting time and $$$$$$.

But Dean backers won't write off Clark as unelectable and would stick around, most of them anyway.

[killbotfactory]

71. I've been impressed with him lately

And he stood up for Dean before he announced, so that wins him points.

Hopefully they'll be on the same ticket.

[indigo32]

76. I switched too

seems to be some of that going on round here :)

[RandomUser]

169. You're right

There does seem to be a bit of this going around :)

[_NorCal_D_]

177. I think they call it

CLARK FEVER!!B-)

[Beaker]

81. Dean is not the guy

I was enamoured with Dean early on- but the more I saw of him, the less likable he seemed. But with the General- the more I sees, the more I likes

[jiacinto]

82. I like them both

nt

[grasswire]

86. here's what I think

Dean is bait-able. I think Rove will be able to bait him into making mistakes.

I don't believe Clark is bait-able.

In this game, you have to consider every stinking word before it leaves your mouth. I think Dean's fire puts him in danger of honestly misspeaking and a firestorm over it.

[carpetbagger]

84. Welcome aboard Tedoll78!

I preferred Tsongas to Clinton in 1992, but I'll tell you I was damn happy to see Clinton in the White House. When Elliot Spitzer shows John Ashcroft the door, it will be a good day for America.

You'll get the policies you're looking for with Clark. And as for bringing enthusiasm into the party, I like what Dean and Trippi have done, but nothing brings a party to life like electoral victory.

[BigBigBear]

87. I agree

I said this a month or two ago.

Dean is a fine man...right on the issues, energetic, passionate, smart. I just think this is NOT the time for a new Northeastern progressive.

Clark's campaign is still working out bugs, I hope he gets his balance soon. He'll be tough for a third place in NH, and won't even show up in Iowa.

I like Clark/Richardson.

Footholds in the South, the West and with the military.

(Clark/Albright, anyone?)

[Doctor_J]

89. Clark/Cleland

or Clark/Edwards. Or maybe Clark/Richardson. Wes & Max would show such a stark contrast to Smirk & Rudy on all fronts - honor, dignity, maturity, patriotism, intellect.

[VolcanoJen]

93. Ya know, I've been thinking Clark/Richardson too!

I agree with many of the sentiments in this thread. I also think it speaks to the kind of campaigner that Wes will be, the way he avoided attacking Dean over the flag flap when the other candidates were piling on.

[MIMStigator]

95. Nailed it. 'Not the time for northeastern progressive"

Dean isn't more progressive than Clark but he will be by the time ROVE MACHINE gets through with him

[Cogito]

94. Me too.

Your story tedoll78 is exactly like my own. We have to take the best shot to win next year. Welcome to the ex-Deanies for Clark club!

[milkyway]

96. I just gave my first donation to each of them.

One of the happiest days of my life will be on Inaugeration Day 2005 when President Dean or President Clark takes office. I love them both for the reasons often expressed here at DU.

Clark's comments on NPR about war and the military were amazing (for example, "we need to create countervailing power to the military-industrial complex"), and only he can get away with saying them without being tarred and feathered by the right. When he gets away from saying what he thinks he's supposed to say, and instead gets into a longer conversation, he shows us what a deep and original thinker he can be.

No matter what happens in this election, the Democratic Party and America should feel indebted to Howard Dean. He was the first one through the door to take on the White House. While most other Democrats were cowering behind the bushes, Dean charged at Bush head on while Bush seemed his strongest. But instead of getting crushed, Dean got stronger, and only then did the others see that they too could go after Bush. If it wasn't for Howard Dean giving a strong voice to those who opposed Bush and his war, Bush would not be sinking so fast in the polls.

One criticism that has been made of both Clark and Dean is that they "flip-flop". This has become one of the most damaging, yet ridiculous, charges in politics. Howard Dean is constantly having statements he made years ago ripped apart and analyzed for any inconsistencies with what he says now. But the thoughts of any intelligent person evolve over time. They should see an issue from multiple points of view before reaching a decision. And as circumstances change and new information becomes available, a person's thoughts should change. It should be a dynamic process. Only a simple minded person would refuse to allow new information to alter his point of view. That simple minded person currently resides at the White House.

[jumptheshadow]

104. Nice post

Welcome to DU.

The "flip-flopping" accusations slay me. Especially when the every-changing stories out of the White House have proven so deadly to so many people.

[newyawker99]

119. Hi milkyway!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[_NorCal_D_]

179. Welcome to DU!

:toast: B-)

[elperromagico]

236. What a great first post

I wish my first post had been that good. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Zynx]

98. Dean and Clark are the best we have.

I lean Clark because I think he has the best shot against Bush, but I love Dean as well.

[kayleybeth]

99. Welcome aboard!

I changed from Dean to Clark also. Glad to have you on our side!

[FrenchieCat]

101. This tread did my heart good....

It is true that Wes will win....

He's like a bottle of "fine" wine...get's better with time.....

He's not a politician, he's a public servant...that's what he said to Soledad O'brien today on CNN......

That's what makes him special, I believe. He really is running out of a sense of duty. His life tells you so.

[jumptheshadow]

105. Very sound logic

Hands-down, I agree that Clark would be our strongest candidate, with the most powerful coattails. He is learning quickly and is honing his message. I think he will have wide appeal during the campaign.

I love the way he is elevating political discourse in this country, focusing on issues and the responsibility of leaders for their decisions.

[Bread and Circus]

114. Clark to receive Hodges endorsement...

This is a nice piece of news:

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/local/7203218.html

[chaska]

127. Thanks for the heads up, FD.

I'll be there.

[chimpymustgo]

136. Clark to get Hodges! This deserves its own thread.

Huge.

[RandomUser]

173. I agree -- major boost for SC

This is huge.

[_NorCal_D_]

181. Outstanding news!

This certainly boosts Clark in SC.

[Bertrand]

186. excellent

if clark were to win South Carolina, he would be poised to do well when super tuesday rolls around.


Edit: especially the media spin he would recieve as being the only electable candidate since it would help confirm peoples beliefs that he is the candidate with the better chance to help bring the south to the Dems in 04.

[CWebster]

115. I'd rather fight than switch--

to something that I feel would compromise fundamental ethical principles for perceived political advantage.

That is exactly what those Democrats did by voting to support Bush on his mission to invade Iraq. They threw out their principles and succumbed to the spin, believing it would be in their future political interest to do so.

Dean is a compromise I can accept insofar that he has a broader conventional appeal rather than a exclusively progressive agenda. But his
intent is honorable--and he fights and sustains his purpose, which indicates to me that he will continue to fight to accomplish his objectives when he is in a position to do so. For that I will fight for him and not be swayed by some johnny-come-lately with a non-controversial but empty and somewhat questionable agenda.

I have to go with a solid foundation rather than an empty possibility.

[Ivote]

116. BUMPER STICKER!

SAVE OUR TROOPS - ELECT SOMEONE THAT WAS ONE!

[CWebster]

145. You want to talk to me about someone who was...

I know people who were, who didn't get their jollies strutting their stuff like they were GI Joe dolls, but who saw the ugly brutal side of war in the trenches. Who had witnessed death and unspeakable violence, who were wounded men in spirit and body, who knew there was nothing decent or honorable in war- That there was no valor in being a soldier. That know now this rallying around the military and it's symbols is as abhorrent and deceitful, when are young are dying or causing great harm and suffering to others, as those who use the flag for their own ends.

[Best_man23]

125. I'm leaning between Clark and Dean

However, I would vote for a yellow dog before I would vote for Dumbya in 2004.

To whoever wins the nomination, I will give my full support.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. Here's My Take...

I start from the premise that the Democratic party is in serious trouble..... Our position is one hundred times worse than 1972, 1984, or even 1988....

We could afford a loss at the presidential level in those years because we still controlled most of the governmental apparatus though we no longer controlled the Senate in 84 and 88....

We don't control j-a-c-k s-h-i-t- now.... Our party is in shambles It's a fucking joke....

If the Dems were a football team they'd be the Chargers...

If the Dems were a baseball team they'd be the Mets....

If the Dems were a basketball team they'd be the Los Angeles Clippers...

If the Dems were a boxer they'd be Tex Cobb...

If the Dems were a car they'd be the extinct Ford Pinto....

We have forty eight Democratic senators with four open seats in the dreaded south-NC, SC, GA, and FL.... Any fair observer would say if there's a sweeep the R's will do the sweeping....

We could even lose the ability to filibuster..

Philisophically, I'm to the left of Liueberman, Dean, Geppy, and Clark and to the right of DK, AS, and CMB but I will support any Dem who can beat Bush....

The stakes have never been higher... A * landlide in 04 will solidify Republican power for a generation....

Peace 03

Brian

[chaska]

131. You're right, Brian.

We should ask ourselves who has the best chance of bringing in more dems with him. And who will have the best chance of getting a Republican congress to do his bidding. The answer in both cases is Clark.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

133. The Democratic Party Is In So Much Trouble....

Some folks actually think if it disappears it will be replaced by something more progressive when the truth is it would be replaced by something abjectly reactionary....


Even someone who has a cursory understanding of American culture, character, and history should understand this...


I shudder for what the next few years have in store for this nation....

[_NorCal_D_]

182. And excellent, insightful,

and witty post. I truly believe that if any Dem could beat Shrub, Clark could.

[HFishbine]

128. Just curious

What do you think of the "electablility" of a Dean/Clark ticket?

[Hep]

139. Thanks for everything, and good luck

You're welcome back anytime. Do a good job for Clark.

[cmd]

140. the way I see it

If you gave me a test you would find that I am far left of all America. I would have no problem living in a socialist country. I am no centrist. I support Wes Clark because he is the best chance that we have of taking back the White House. Dean has not convinced me about anything. If I can't be convinced, what about the 99% of Americans that are to the right of me? I have to look beyond me when I choose a candidate. I have to have at least 51% of the people with me and I have to consider the South. Wes Clark is the one who can win. He has my endorsement.

[Cogito]

147. Excellent comments in this thread.

I have argued for Clark over Dean for weeks now but what this thread shows is that people need to make up their mind and ask themselves honestly about the electability of Dean. Is Dean the best candidate to run in the South and Midwest?

Dean's true believers will answer yes on the basis of how effective Dean has been in mobilizing the liberal base through a creative grassroots campaign. To those whose minds are more open I say, think about Humphrey, McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis...then think about Carter, Clinton and Gore. Ask yourself how "the Democratic wing of the Democratic party" has performed in presidential elections? Compare the performance of the Democratic wing with the performance of Southern centrists. I think the answer brings us down to two choices: Edwards or Clark. Clark is the stronger of those candidates.

[CWebster]

148. And as one at ease with socialist policy

what platform or political position has convinced you that Clark, above all others, is the best?

I would be at ease in a socialist state too but that is a far cry from countries who prefer military types to run the show.

No thanks, there are preferrable alternatives.

[Cogito]

156. CW, it is not platform positions that are central

The policy differences among Democrats are small compared to the differences between all of them and Bush.

Clark is more electable than Dean because of his resume and profile.

Clark: Southern, general, moderate (voted for Reagan and Bush I, switched to Clinton/Gore), telegenic, great poise.

Dean: Northern yankee, Governor of hyper liberal Vermont, perceived as very liberal, not telegenic, lacks poise.

Clark matches up much better against Bush than Dean. Clark can exploit Bush on military creds where Bush exploits militaristic rhetoric against Dean. Clark's economic plan does not call for raising taxes on middle class while Dean does. Bush will exploit Dean on middle class taxes but won't exploit Clark.

I could go on but the point is that to win elections we Dems must think strategically rather than naively. We might like Dean's policies better than Clark's or like his profile and experience better. Choosing Clark rather than Dean is like choosing a batter who hits better against right-handers when the opposing team is using a right-handed pitcher. Dems are basically on the same team so lets find the candidate best able to beat Bush.

[CWebster]

167. Really?

Policy difference obviously weren't that much different for Clark since he had trouble deciding between the two.

Okay. next.

[_NorCal_D_]

183. As did

Dean.

Okay. Next B-)

[chaska]

150. Your politics and mine...

would appear to be identical. And while I believe Clark to be the most electable as well, for me it's his intelligence. I see a man that is capable of seeing the big picture.

He is clearly communicating to me that he understands how everything is connected. It doesn't work to tinker at the margins, which is the story of modern politics. A president's job should be to balance all the competing issues and how they affect the overall mission of the state. This is why we need men like Clinton and Clark (to mention just the ones that come immediately to mind). The office of president is for men of high intellect, with caring hearts, and above all, vision. Clark has these qualities.

[DemExpat]

154. Well said, Chaska,

I too see that Clark has vision, knowledge, and intelligent supervision of all the complexities and connections involved.

That is to me why he is the only great Presidential material up there....plus he is charming and dignified!

:kick:
DemEx

[chaska]

155. Thanks Ex- p.

Lately, I've been mulling this one: "It's the stupidity, stupid," refering, of course, to Bushco.

[cms424]

158. I'm not sure why people are so convinced that Clark could win

The ONLY thing that he has going for him is his stance on Iraq. Having never held a public office, he not only has no experience in campaigning and playing the games that go with it, but does anyone have any idea where he stands on any domestic issues? Does he?

Assuming that Clark will win is assuming that Iraq is the deciding factor in the election and also assuming that most Americans think Bush is doing the wrong thing there. I hate to say it, but there are still plenty of people out there who actually believe that we are defending our country from terrorism by occupying Iraq.

[chaska]

162. I don't comment on Dean's policies because...

I only know enough to know that I prefer Clark and I don't want to appear ignorant (or rude). If you are going to post about Clark, you should inform yourself about Clark, to avoid giving a bad impression of yourself.

[cms424]

192. how am I giving a bad impression of myself?

Clark's strength is foreign policy. He has no experience with domestic issues or campaigning for political office. What did I say that is so ignorant?

I know more about Dean's views than I do about Clark's, but I have read enough about Clark to have an opinion.

[FrenchieCat]

185. With the Repug's convention being held in NY, closing on 9/11

It would be naive to think that the big speech Bush will give will be about anything other than National Security. Also remember that the repug convention is less than 2 months prior to the election!

Here is the Bush speech I envision if Dean becomes the Democratic nominee:

(Imagine it with his bad tx southern accent)
We have been fighting this War on Terror three years exactly today. We continue to pray for those who perished on 9/11. We pray for their family and thank them for the lives of their brave sons and daughters. We pray for the firemen and policemen who's heroic efforts shall never be forgotten. We will never forget, and that's why we took the fight to the enemy. We are safer because the fight is going on over there instead of over here.

The Democrats want to be in charge on this War on Terror. Howard Dean, who has no foreign policy experience, and never saw military service, wants to take the baton from me. He said that he has as much experience as I did when I was first elected. After 9/11, is that who the American people want to take over the War on Terror?(Bush snickers with his imfamous smirk) Dean wanted Saddam to continue to torture and kill the Iraqi people. He didn't want us to uphold America's responsibility to the world. He thinks that Iraq was better off under the terroristic evil dictatorship called Saddam Hussein. You have seen the reports on the mass graves. Dean obviously didn't. Dean didn't want the terrorist to come to Iraq to fight. He wanted them to stay in America and kill innocent Americans again, just like they did on 9/11.

But more than that, Howard Dean also wants to raise your taxes. Yes, raise taxes on each and everyone of you. A Tax and Spend Democrat wants to do what they have always done; grow the government and waste your hard earned money.

Now I know that we have to win this war, to give what we promised to the Iraqis people. We have to give them freedom and democracy, that was our promise, and I intend to fulfill that promise. Today we have 100,000 Iraqis bringing security to Iraqis. We have to stay in there until the job is done, otherwise the Middle East will have only learned that our resolve means nothing. Howard Dean wants to cut and run. He wants to pander to the U.N. and make America look weak.
On the domestic front, do you want a President who has been making the tough decisions for the last 4 years or do you want Dean? The guy who comes from a state that has as many residence as this city of New York has people of Puerto Rican descent. 600,000 people folks. That's what he calls experience (Bush does his sinister snicker, the crowd laughs). I say to Howard Dean, Maybe if it had been at least 1 million people in Vermont that would give us some concern (another joke)! Does Vermont even have a National Guard?.(more laughter)...oh yea, I think there are six or seven guys over there protecting the borders from out of state attackers.(wild applauds).

(Bush gets serious and sober) I want to keep serving for the American people, for the brave folks that are serving in our military. Don't let them have died in Vain. Ms. Smith over there please stand up. Yes Ms. Smith lost her son in the war. She says that her son died for Democracy and Freedom. You are right Ms. Smith, your son died a hero to return humanity and dignity back to millions of Iraqi men, women and children (wild applause, Ms. Smith bows and sits down).

(Bush sobers off after beaming smiles and nodding his head to thank the crowd for their applause)The evildoers are on the run. We've got them where we want them. If we stop now, if we lose our resolve, who knows what will happen. Next, Iran will be developing Nukes and threatening us. So a vote for Howard Dean will not make us more secure, at home or abroad. (Bush squints and slowly says)Howard Dean doesn't know how to keep America safe, he'll have to learn. After 9/11, America can't afford a President that has to go to training classes.

Under my leadership, we haven't had another attack here in the U.S., and that says a lot about the great team that I assembled. We will win the War on terror for the sake of those innocent lives taken on 9/11 and for the sake of our children. We will win the war on terror for the sake of Freedom and Democracy. We will win the election because only we can make you safe.

The economy is looking pretty good. I promised you that my tax cuts really would work. We have a ways to go, but we will get there. Howard Dean? Well he wants to raise the taxes of each and every hard working American. He wants the big wasteful bureaucracy to decide what to do with your money. Can we afford that in America? As patriots, we have all already sacrificed much too much. Look at Ms. Smith over there. Should she be asked to add injury to pain?
As real cowboys have said, don't change horses in the middle of the stream. Especially if the replacement horse is a donkey.(wild laughter and applause). Well folks, we are in that stream now. A nice a steady course will get us across.

God Bless all of you and God Bless America.

[RandomUser]

189. OMG

This is scary. You should give it its own thread. We can't lose 2004.

[_NorCal_D_]

205. I agree

<eom>

[RandomUser]

221. I don't think anyone will see this post buried here

And you obviously put a lot of time into composing it, Frenchie.

[FrenchieCat]

231. Actually, it took hardly any time.....

because it's so evident, it just came streaming out of my fingertips onto the computer screen.

[Snellius]

163. We cancel out. I'm now leaning from Clark to Dean

For character, charisma, and guts, Dean stands out for his uncompromising pugnaciousness.

Clark was better before he became a candidate. His problems are that his years in the military have left him out of touch (his discussion of gays in the military, for example, was very analytical) and his amazing mind makes it difficult for him to boil issues down to simple, left-jab punches. He comes off trying to overexplain.

Clark or Dean, it's already pretty clear that there are only two candidates left.

[FrenchieCat]

188. Well Good luck to you Snellius.......

Just read the Speech that Bush may give if Dean is the nominee. That's the speech Bush will give during the National Republican convention, to be held in New York, with the closing date being 9/11/04.

Although Dean may have the qualities that you mentioned, they won't be enough to overcome his lack of experience on Foreign policy matters. Period.

In reference to Clark being out of touch, I agree to disagree with your opinion. When one listens to this radio NPR interview from 2 days ago, I doubt that is the impression that anyone walks away with:
http://www.nhpr.org/view_summary/3/

[Snellius]

194. Thanks, Frenchie

I'll check out the link. I would actually love to support Clark wholeheartedly. He would make the president, no doubt. But there are other issues: Who can beat Bush? Who can reform the Democrats? Who can focus a new message?

[javadu]

187. I Made the Same Switch Long Ago

And like you, I will work by butt off for Dean if he gets the nod, but I am supporting Clark for the nomination.

[jkg]

191. I switched from Dean to Clark too!

I did so intitially for pragmatic reasons: I believe Clark has the best chance for sure. I also believe Dean will alienate large swaths of necessary voters. To tell the truth, his anger got me going, but it ultimately turned me off. Clark's rails against Bush are just as angry - but far more persuasive as he does it with an unimpeachable gravitas. I also admire the guy and think people will have real reason to look up to their president. Dean is the Anti-Bush. Clark is who we all wanted our president to be.

[_NorCal_D_]

207. Welcome aboard jkg!

You make some excellent points. :hi:

[Fleshdancer]

195. as long as you never vote for bush

at the end of the day, we all play for the same team. we'll vote for the same guy/gal during the general election so until then, may the best candidate get the dem. nomination.

[mzmolly]

196. I respect your decision, but if Clark is so electable, why is he falling

in the polls? I understand the thought behind the theory, but it's proving to be wrong. :shrug:

Best wishes to your new candidate :thumbsup:

[ginchinchili]

220. Polls

It depends on which polls you're looking at. In most national polls Clark is leading. And that's the point. We need a candidate that will appeal nationally. Dean can't do it. There are too many who just won't vote for Dean. All the republicans would have to do is play a video of Dean saying that he represents the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. That will turn off just enough people to give Bush the election. That's why it's important that Democrats get behind Clark and to get behind him NOW.

[TLM]

234. What poll shows Clark leading?

Link please?

[Robin Hood]

197. Clark/Dean in 04'

Is that too much to ask for?

[quinnox]

203. Whoa, it looks like some Deaniacs are in a tizzy over this

Regardless of their discomfort, you made a great decision. And I say this as someone that doesn't have Clark in their top three choices.

Dean is a Titanic disaster waiting to happen.

[DemExpat]

216. Some are going to burst a vein if they don't watch it......

I support Clark 100%, but will be happy with another good Dem candidate.

But Dean just doesn't do it for me at all - and I find it very difficult imagining him as a good President!

DemEx

[absyntheNsugar]

215. Im sitting on the same fence, buddy!

But Dean/Clark or Clar/Dean would be an awesome ticket would it not?

Hell...when it comes right down to it its always been about Anyone but Bush. That's why I like Clark, he's got the best chance to go against Bush - but that's not to say Dean doesn't have a chance...

And Kerry? I worry about the electability, but if he does win the nom and beats Bush, the man is an insider and will get things done.

[ThomWV]

218. Yes

That expresses exactly how I have felt since before Clark announced. At best any other of the 9 could only hope to hold onto the Gores states, and might be lucky to do that. Clark can not only hold what we now have but I honestly think he is the only one who can bring back at least some (enough!) of what we have lost.

[ginchinchili]

219. CLARK IS BEST CHANCE

I agree with you. I started out supporting Dean as well. I, too, sent him $$$. But even then I was waiting to see if Clark was going to enter the race and to check him out if he did. Well he did and I have. This man's got the goods. The best chance we have at ousting this Bush-league president we've got now is to nominate Wesley Clark. The man is everything Bush isn't. He could just be the only real outsider who is still qualified to be president that this country will ever see. He graduated 1st in his class from West Point, was a Rhodes scholar, has 3 masters degrees, one in economics, one in political science, and one in psychology. He fought bravely in Viet Nam and took several bullets in doing so. After he recovered he insisted that he get right back out there with his men. He earned a Purple Heart, a bronze star and a silver star. He served his country honorably for 34 years. He is married to the same woman for 36 years and has one son who is married and about to have their first child. Wes Clark is not only someone deserving of the presidency, not only can beat Bush, but would make a damn fine president and that's something this country sorely need at this point in time. Clark For President! I'm afraid supporting Dean will give Bush another 4 years, similar to backing Nadar in the last election.

[chaska]

223. Welcome GCC!

Not to throw cold water, but actually that's one degree in Philosphy, Politics, and Economics. And technically it's not a masters degree, though its value is probably equivalent. Oxford - England - different system.

Once again, welcome.

[Kimber Scott]

227. My Feelings About Clark

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=673566

[DemExpat]

240. They mirror mine......thanks for sharing.

:hi:
DemEx

[Bread and Circus]

237. Maybe Clark really does like Outkast.....

From the Guardian...

Atlanta rap group OutKast has an unlikely fan in Wesley Clark, the silver-haired former general running for president.

Clark touted his support of the Grammy-award winning group during the ``Rock the Vote'' debate this week on CNN. Clark spokeswoman Kym Spell said Clark listens to their CDs on his campaign plane flights.

Could the older, white politician who raps his message - like the ``Ghetto Superstar'' portrayed by Warren Beatty in the 1998 film ``Bulworth'' - be far behind?

``Not if we have anything to say about it,'' said Spell, who favors Frank Sinatra and calls herself ``the oldest 31-year-old on the planet.''

She said Clark has been known to bust a rhyme or two in private, but a group of young advisers he calls ``my Mod Squad'' usually tries to rein him in.