Why don't Iraqis turn Iraqis in?

[NNN0LHI]

I tried to understand why the average American is not capable of understanding this. I have an idea why. Iraqis don't turn Iraqis in to foreign occupiers. I don't think that would not hold true in America. Sure there are some divisions in Iraq between the Sunnis, Shiites, and others in Iraq. But that does not mean anything to the Iraqis. Those divisions will be ironed out one in due time. But right now their only enemy is America. They can settle their own differences later.

Americans seem to really have a hard time understanding this concept. I think I know why too. If this country was invaded I would be just as worried about my freeper neighbor or just some other asshole who wants to get back to the newest Survivor show turning me in as getting caught by an invading force for joining an organized resistance against the interlopers. Some have suggested that Americans would fight back an occupyng force in America, but I am not so sure that would be that case. This country is mostly made up of people who believe what they are told to believe. That is a fact. We just can't seem to understand why those Iraqis dont turn one another in to our brave soldiers. We can't understand it because Americans would turn each other in so they could get back to the ball game and their beer.

Don

[SoCalDem]

1. feud mentality..

You may beat the hell out of your brother and say you hate him, but when the guy down the street threatens him, you back him up and you both go pay THAT guy a visit....

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. have you seen the video clip of the U.S.. soldier

punching an Iraqi in the rib cage as he lay face down in the dirt with his hands behind his back.

it was disgusting. whoever would turn in a fellow neighbor to war criminals would have to be insane. have you seen "COPS", our soldiers are 100x worse. they will kill you if you look at them wrong...like that farmer and his son in the field.

[Parabura]

3. Fear of retribution

If the Americans pull out, people believe (probably rightly) that if they were seen helping our cause, they will be hung on meat cleavers after we leave. This answer is a no-brainer.

[wtmusic]

4. Americans wouldn't turn each other in either

But every time I mention that to a wingnut they fail to see any comparison between Iraqis and Americans.

That's the fundamental problem. The belief is that Americans are rational, Iraqis are religious zealots with unpredictable motives and behaviors that just need to be taught how to enjoy freedom.

Blecch.

[NNN0LHI]

7. The reason they fail to see any comparison is because...

...those wingnuts would turn you over to even a foreign invading force if they thought it might help their stock portfolio. Your average Iraqi does not know what a stock portfolio is. Or even what a retirement is for that matter. They are wondering if there will be enough to eat and drink today.

Don

[Warren Stuart]

5. History, they are not as stupid as we would like them to be

Remember in '91 when Bush the First, encouraged the Iraqi's to overthrow Saddam? Some of them did and paid the price for their gullibility.

"There's a saying in Texas, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice and you can't get fooled again" (I've created a mala-malapropism, a mangling of an already mangled expression).

The simple response is that most people throughout the world would consider ratting out their neighbors to be similar to treason. We don't have the incentives nor the history to make the Iraq's comfortable with this.

At some point we will leave, and when that happens, the collaborators will be dealt with.

[recidivist]

6. They do.

By all reports, we are getting an increasing amount of information from Iraqis, and this figures to increase steadily as we continue to reconstitute the Iraqi police and security forces.

No, not everyone assists. It will take time to root out the underground, and fear of retribution is a constant threat to many who would otherwise give information. Remember, most of the people being killed now in the terrorist attacks are anti-Saddam Iraqis; the bad guys are murdering their own to cow others into line. But it is still safer to be an American in Iraq than a Saddamite.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Did you forget the sarcasm tag?

31 Americans have already died this month in Iraq. You think we are getting a handle on this, do you?

Don

[recidivist]

10. Do you really think the Iraqis want Saddam back?

I don't. I think most of them are grateful that we liberated them. That doesn't mean they want us to stay indefinitely; they don't, but they do want a reasonably orderly transition to a relatively humane successor regime. That's the same thing we want. So far, we're on the same page.

The problem is, the Iraqis themselves are going to have a devil of a time agreeing on the composition and structure of a new government. We will push the negotiations along as fast as we can, because we have no desire to stay any longer than necessary, but it will still take some time. The absolute worst thing we could do now is cut and run.

Yes, the bad guys managed to shoot down a helicopter -- probably the greatest Arab military victory in 200 years, and the jihadis are celebrating. The loss of American lives is a sad thing. But losing a chopper is a hazard of war. It doesn't change anything on the ground.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Washington turning to Vietnam exit strategy in Iraq

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031107/pl_afp/us_iraq_wars&cid=1521&ncid=1480

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Moving to pull US troops from Iraq amid intensifying attacks, replacing them with a hurriedly trained Iraqi force, Washington is accused of seeking an exit strategy similar to the Vietnam war.

The move to "Iraqify" military and police forces is reminiscent of the option taken by Washington over the so-called Vietnamization that came before south Vietnam collapsed before northern forces in 1975, observers and politicians say.

Former president Richard Nixon chose to "Vietnamify" -- progressively putting heavier military responsibility on the south Vietnamese so as to disengage the United States, which lost 58,000 soldiers in the tortuous war.

Though the Iraqi conflict is quite different and US casualties nowhere near the levels een in Vietnam, the analogy is being seen increasingly, after Washington said it may cut US troops from 132,000 to 105,000 by next spring.

more

[Yupster]

9. Story a couple of days ago

was about how in the south of the country, the Iraqis are systematically murdering judges, cops, doctors, secret policemen, and any other governmental officials who had been associated with mistreatment during the old regime.


I think the Iraqis would rather settle their scores by themselves and leave us and our confusing regulations and rules out of it.

[Pocho]

11. HONOR

I converse regularly with an Iraqi on an internationally oriented internet chat system. He is a UN aid worker who left the country on vacation. A rule was instituted immediately after that preventing Iraqis from returning to their country before 70 days had passed. The best he can do now to alleviate his deep frustrations is try and explain what is happening to those in need of what he knows.

US users of the same chat system tend to parrot views the US government has pushed, those being such as outside terrorists, Hussein loyalists, fanatical Muslims, etc, etc, etc. My friend explains it differently in a manner difficult to grasp by those of the US culture.

The key word is "honor" toward one's self, family, friends, community, and nation. If life has meaning at all, its honor must be upheld. To have had someone considered close, either of family or of community, killed, injured, or beaten is be personally dishonored, and the honorable view of life is to rectify that with honorable acts.

I am reminded of an Irish expression of antiquity my father would repeat "There is blood on the moon". The rest left unsaid but understood is "...and it can only be cleansed with more blood". My wife was raped in younger years. It was long ago and we do not nor probably will ever know the identity of the perpetrator. But if that should come about and he still lives, I am obligated to kill him. It is what I feel, but I do wonder why being from a culture which champions living a life devoid of personal honor.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Time The Avenger

Excellent posts, and a couple thoughts:

We through around the term "democracy" as if the U.S. holds some kinda patent on it. As we can attest our "democracy" or shall we say "representative republic (small r)" was internally developed and strengthened...even emboldened when threatened from abroad (Monroe Doctorine et al). And this from a culture less than 600 years old (British) and a "nation" of less than 200 years. Here we're dealing with people whose histories stretch back thousands of years. Are we that mypoic and naive? At least I hope some of us aren't.

I've posed this question endlessly since this invasion began, and that was putting the shoe on the other foot. If we were invaded, would you resist and how. What incentives would there to collaborate? Let's get even closer to home on this one...say it was the Soviet Union who invaded (we need a good old boogy man)...claiming that removing * was good for the American people and that eventually we would be allowed to govern ourselves (such a hypocritical concept in itself), would you collaborate with the Soviets to ensure public safety and the quick return to local government? This could be a string unto itself.

Lastly, there is such a disconnect with this regime and the realities on the ground. The resentment in the Arab world (and this covers everything from Mauritania to Indonesia) continues to build. This isn't just subjegating some backward Arabs who just happen to be sitting on oil, this is viewed as an embarassment to Arab pride and nationalism. The longer the U.S. stays, the deeper this resentment builds...thanks to the Rumsfeld madrassas that are going up across the Middle East. The damage is especially bad now as it's getting very obvious this regime is going to lie and spin and cover up what's really going on inside Iraq.

Cheers.

[ninkasi]

14. It amazes me, Don

that so many of us are either incapable of understanding other cultures, or are too lazy to learn. I personally believe that an understanding of, and respect for, other beliefs, other cultures, other values, is critical in maintaining world peace.

We seem to be willing to demonize the people of Iraq for daring to assume the right to own their own feelings about having an enemy force occupying their country and killing their citizens. We will continue, as a nation, to suffer from this stubborn refusal to look beyond our own way of life, and to respect and understand others.

[KharmaTrain]

15. This Is Western Arrogance

I think most of us have had the same basic education (through High School) and since this is DU, I'll tack on an additional 6 years of college...thus we all pretty much have had to study the same history.

Moslem history has always been viewed in a hostile manner. The images of Mohammed riding with wild sword-wielding, 1001 Arabian Knights...get the picture? It's not unlike the image of the savage redskin or the lazy n*g*r. These were stereotypes, along with many others, that were very acceptable to past generations that was born from a need for a national identity and pride (especially since there were so many immigrants in this country) and meshed everyone into an "Amurican".

Many of these stereotypes have been erased...blacks are the most notable, but still a case can be made for a new stereotype, but the Arab has never abated...it's gotten even uglier. They became oil barons, smugglers and terrorist (look how many are the antagonist in movies and on TV), thus there's a cultural hatred here for Arabs that mold into a stereotype that belies history and geographical and cultural differences.

The other morning, I saw the goon Jane Parshall on C-SPAN who did some sort of Wingnut Christian junket to a refugee camp in Iraq and this witch had the audacity to claim she was now an expert on all things Arab.

For a nation with such wealth and the capacity to learn and grow, our ignorance is so glaring. Especially to the Iraqis.

[RandomUser]

16. You're wrong

Lots of Iraqis are turning in other Iraqis. And the pace seems to be picking up.

I would suggest you check here. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=638648

Look at the Chief Wiggles and Healing Iraq blog. You will see information of lots of Iraqis turning in other Iraqis.

Basically, with regard to Iraqi informants, there are four categories. The Baathist, foreign fighters, fundamentalists resistance, and others who are actively opposing the US. Then there are the neutral ones who are staying away from taking sides, perhaps tacitly condoning the opposition by not helping, not that they agree with these groups. Third, there are those who are turning in information because they want something from the coalition, from money to jobs to cars. Fourth, there are people who are genuinely working to help give information because they see the Americans as being the best way to help secure Iraq right now.

[NNN0LHI]

18. I may be wrong?

But I tend not to believe everything I read. And when 31 Americans are killed in one weeks time, and the frequency of attacks appear to be increasing I turn skeptical of such anonymous online blogs touting such sucess. Know what I mean?

Don

[RandomUser]

19. Hardly anonymous

Some of those bloggers have been interviewed on TV.

I'm not denying that there are people being killed and things going haywire. But there is also lots of progress and good things happening.

In short, you can have both -- lots of terrible things and lots of good things.

I would suggest you investigate the full range of those blogs in that link first. You'll find many Iraqis ranting and raving and cursing America. And you'll find Iraqis cheering and supporting America. And people from the two groups happen to be personal friends with each other offline. And some of them have been interviewed on TV.

[NNN0LHI]

20. I made a mistake in my last post. Let me clarify something.

>>>And when 31 Americans are killed in one weeks time, and the frequency of attacks appear to be increasing I turn skeptical of such anonymous online blogs edit: or spin I hear from people talking on the TV touting such sucess.<<<

There. That is better. Is what I am saying is just let the facts as we know them speak for themselves. 31 dead in one week. Can't spin that.

Don

[RandomUser]

23. I agree, that is exactly the point

I agree with your criticism of the spin on TV. That is the point of these firsthand blogs, as a way to see past the spin.

These not just bloggers chatting in cyberspace, but people who are living in the area. Yes, there are a lot of people dying, but that doesn't negate the fact that there are a lot of Iraqis coming forward to give information with increasing frequency as well.

I really suggest you read the full range of those blogs.

[caledesi]

17. Blood is thicker than water. nt

[Kamika]

21. An outer enemy is the BEST way to combine a people

It has always worked like this. Two different people attacked by a third party would unite them strongly.

Just see how "united" we were after 911.. Seriously everyone (almost) be it freeper or democrat were united as one. (for a week or two)

Same thing in Iraq. These guys may hate eachothers guts but were uniting them pretty well.

[NNN0LHI]

22. I remember Sean Penn walking the streets of Baghdad with no security

Just him and his cameraman walking along with a camcorder talking to people. Has anyone seen pictures of anyone doing this since America invaded Iraq? Do you think we ever will?

Don

[gbwarming]

24. Interesting Fresh Air yesterday

Interesting interview - I had no idea there were non-military US police working in Iraq. Gross has had a lot of people on that were actually on the ground in Iraq in the last several months (including Sean Penn on Tuesday).


http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=11/06/2003
Listen to Philadelphia Police Sergeant Nouman H. Shubbar

From May of this year until September, he was in Iraq helping with the reconstruction of the Iraqi police, forming a special enforcement and investigations team, developing informants and arresting individuals on the coalition forces wanted list (those whose faces showed up on the most-wanted deck of cards). Shubbar was born and raised in Baghdad, and fled the country in 1981.