A question about Zell Miller Southern Democrats posts

[chaumont58]

I have watched the Zell Miller drift over the past weeks. At first, I was afraid he was going to tell some dark secret history that I(as a long term Democrat)had missed. What I have seen so far makes little sense to me. He recalled how JFK did in 1960, but he didn't mention how LBJ did in 1964. Regardless, the issues of 1960 are not same issue for today. I suspect the history of the late 60s have more to do with the political makeup of the South than Zell is willing to admit.
Two days ago, a purported Southern Democrat posted a long thread regarding how the South is mistreated by the national Democratic Party, along the lines that Zell put forth in his book. I live in California, and am puzzled by this supposed mistreatment. I made a reply to the thread. I waited a hour or so, went back to see if there was a response, and couldn't find the original thread. I suspose it was deleted. The delete policy at the Democratic Underground moves in mysterious ways. The original thread didn't seem provactive to me.
I don't know where I go to get an answer to the Zell Miller question. I thought I had a start with the thread I mention in the previous paragraph, but, lo and behold.......

[La_Serpiente]

1. Personally

I do not approve of what Zell Miller is doing.

Breaux, Baucus, and the rest of the conservative Senators are alright with me. However, Zell is the only one.

[3CardMonte]

2. Well

what was the question you wanted answered?

[chaumont58]

27. Zell's FDR quote

I haven't bought Zell's book and wont. In the excepts that I have seen, he quotes FDR about seeing one third of the nation ill housed, etc... Zell talks how the current Democratic Party tells one third of the nation to go to hell. I don't see that. How do any of the Democratic candidates for president tell one third of the nation to go to hell. What is so different about a Southern Democrat, that Zell could and does get by with saying this? That is an opening question.

[GumboYaYa]

3. I was raised in the South and I am

not ashamed to admit that there are parts of my Southern heritage that are very dear to me. I'll give you my perspective on this issue and take it for what its worth (which is basically nothing).

The South and Southerners are not the monolith that some outsiders seem to thing. Southerners are a diverse group, just like any other part of the country. Among those people are overt bigots of the worst sort, but the group also includes liberal white Democrats, African Americans, and a growing Latin American population. In some areas of the South the latter group is growing and the former group is diminishing.

When Southerners hear that others in the party want to "write-off" the South, it upsets us because we know the reality on the ground. We know that there are electoral votes to be had with the right effort. It is very frustrating to see states like LA, NC, AR, and FL lumped together as part of an unwinnable South. Liberal Southerners want our compatriots from other regions to stop assuming we are all the same and look at the facts.

Democrats have a tendency to make broad sweeping statements about the South and Southerners that they would never make about other groups of people or regions and assume that all Southerners are the stereotyped ignorant Rednecks. In no way am I saying that we should ignore the bigotry that exists in the South, but bigotry exists everywhere and ignorance is not limited to the South.

If the Democrats will begin to recognize the diversity in the South and stop the condescending preachiness to Southerners (don't deny it, because it is extremely prevalent here at DU), they will have a much better chance to win several Southern states.

[3CardMonte]

4. I moved from NY to NC

7.5 years ago. And to be honest, I observed far more racism and bigotry in NY than I have in NC.

[CheezDawg]

7. Race relations in the South

It's hard for any outsider to understand all the nuances between white and black in the South. One thing's for sure --- it's not winning any white Southern votes by bashing the Confederate flag. People who are inclined to do that are already voting Democrat.

Dean stepped in it big time, and every time he tries to wiggle free, he makes things worse. If I were one of the other eight (with the exceptions of Sharpton and Mosely-Braun), I wouldn't go near that topic.

[chaumont58]

31. Is this a large perception?

The last paragraph of your post says this:

"If the Democrats will begin to recognize the diversity in the South and stop the condescending preachiness to Southerners (don't deny it, because it is extremely prevalent here at DU), they will have a much better chance to win several Southern states."

If this is large perception of Southern Democrats, what could be done to reverse it? How did it come about?

I live in California. When I was in the service many, many years ago, people not from California tried to heap scorn on California. It was known as the 'queer state' or the land of the fruits, or la-la land. As I grew up, I stopped caring. I like it here. If others don't, so what? They can stay away. Not many draftees live in California. My point is to ask the question of why are Southerners so concerned about what others think about the South? Why do Southerners seem so thin skinned about that? Jefferson once said about religion that what did he carry about his neighbor's religion? It neither picked his pocket or broke his arm. That's not a perfect fit, but what are the practical results of perceived scorn by other regional Democrats?

[GumboYaYa]

35. Look at it this way.

The people who called California things like "the land of fruits and nuts" were typically conservative and largely Republican. California is now a Democratic stronghold. There are lots of reasons for that, but among them I'm sure is a natural reaction to being stereotyped and maligned by the Republicans.

Same thing goes for kids who are hectored by a teacher or parent. The natural reaction is to rebel (no pun intended).

Southerners aren't any different.

People from outside of the South like to act like they are not racists, but when I moved to St. Louis I encountered more unspoken racism than I ever saw in the South. In St. Louis you do not see blacks and whites in the same neighborhoods or schools that frequently. It is by far the most segregated place I have ever lived. When we first moved here we rented a house in a predominantely black neighborhood. It was a working class neighborhood and my neighbors were upstanding families. My father-in-law was appalled and never visited our house.

It is easier to point out the overt racism that one does encounter in the South than to address the unspoken racism that pervades all aspects of American society. As a result, the South and Southerners frequently are stereotyped as ignorant backward hicks. That simply is not true, the South has plenty of its own doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors, nurses, etc. who are anything but ignorant hicks. Democrats need to realize that to win Sotherners' votes we do not have to change our positions on issues, we simply need to express them in a way that is not so judgmental and condescending to Southerners and that menas taking an effort to understand some of the true cultural differences that apply.

For example, look at the attitudes about hunting. We lose an incredible amount of votes each year over the gun issue, yet no mainstream Democrat has ever suggested changes to gun lawws that would restrict the ability of hunters to buy rifles and shotguns. Still that is the perception.

[chaumont58]

45. I agree with most of what you say

Especially guns. It is not a winning at the national level. Better luck trying to ban rain on Sunday than to totally ban guns, and why should hunters be deprived. BTW, I don't now own guns. I had a shotgun and a .22 rifle as a kid, but nothing now.
I've been on this old planet more than a few days. I've been fortunate to live in California most of my years, but I have seen the edges of overt racism. I was in Texas, for AirForce tech school in 1956 and saw the separate facilities, such as separate waiting rooms in bush depots, separate drinking fountains. There is racism here in California. I don't think it was ever as institutionalized as the South, but it is certainly still here.
I am gratified at the responses I got with this thread. Boiling it down, I am afraid it comes to a large inferiority complex on the part of a lot of Southern Democrats. The repukes exploit it.

[mmonk]

5. I still don't see Zell

as a southern democrat. Southern republican calling himself a southern democrat and registering and running as a democrat.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. I agree

he's no Democrat.

[jarab]

9. Miller is

a most dangerous Democrat, and an insult to the party he clings to. I cannot wait for his complete defection to the other side.
..O...

[CheezDawg]

14. Zell

Seriously, what about stopping for a minute and thinking about what this guy is really saying? Despite plenty of pressure and temptation by Republicans, this guy won't switch parties. He loves the Democrat party and being a Democrat. I think he's like a lot of the "Reagan Democrats" of the 80's who felt "I didn't leave the Democrats, they left me."

Look at the past few elections. Bush wins mid-term seats in Congress for the first time in history (?), California, the most liberal state in the union goes Republican, Kentucky goes Republican for the first time in 30-some years, Mississippi's Democrat governor loses his bid for reelection to the former head of the RNC. WTF --- maybe Zell Miller's trying to give a little insight and good advice here. Want to listen or do you prefer to be watching George W. get inaugurated again?

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Just what we need

Reagan Democrats. :( I credit the republican's latest wins to the electronic voting machines. You can't tell me that all of a sudden, all of those people just decided to vote republican while we have the WORSE president in history squatting in the WH. Nope. Just doesn't wash. IMCPO.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[haymaker]

25. Save the Democratic Party? That's a WHOPPER!

Becoming the "Republican Party" is saving the Democratic Party? The overwhelming sentiment of the day is NOT a move to the right, my loe poster friend, it is apathy and complacency. Do you think that only 70% are registerd and less than 50% turnout in EVERY election since 2000 is a signal to become Republican? Get a grip.

Back away from the radio, if you are sincere, hehehehe, and try to figure out how to invigorate the masses into going to the polls. Suggesting we become more Republican is the outright dumbest thing I have ever heard.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. And whose head is up their posterior?

Good lord! Zell Miller is not what we want in the Democratic party and his RHETORIC is NOT what the party needs to be saved from your dust heap. If you want to believe the republicans aren't stealing votes, then you, my friend are sadly uninformed. Get a grip on reality, would you? Damn.

[3CardMonte]

33. Are the republicans stealing votes?

Of course they are. But is the democratic party clean on this? HELL NO! The poster is right (and only about this). The democratic party has a tremendous history of vote fraud, and it persists to this day.

How many GOP precincts get greater than 100% turnout? I have never seen a single one. But heavy democratic districts do in some places.

And he is likely dead on right about Jean Carnahan. The polls in St. Louis were kept open several hours extra because 2 votes filed a petition with the courts to keep them open because "they were having trouble voting." Well, why were they having trouble voting?

Because one of them was DEAD! And the other was NOT REGISTERED TO VOTE!

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. I'm sure the Democratic party

is not completely innocent, well...er...I know they're not. I live in Illinois. We have dead voters too. "We see dead people." (couldn't resist) :7 However, we cannot just lie down and let the republicans take over the world. We have to fight this and we have to fight it hard. If Bush steals it again, this country is finished. THIS is the most important election....2004 is a MUST win. There's no going back if we don't.

[GumboYaYa]

38. I agree, the real issue is to stop using stolen votes

as a scapegoat for not addressing the issue of the inability to communicate a positive Democratic message to a large segmment of working class whites in the South and elsewhere.

I'm not saying that diebold/bbv is not a big issue, but it is a different issue.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. Ya, just ignore it

Sounds like the strategy used by the people stealing the votes. Ignore it and it'll go away. It's not a scapegoat, it's happening and it's destroying the democratic process along the way.

as a scapegoat for not addressing the issue of the inability to communicate a positive Democratic message to a large segment of working class whites in the South and elsewhere.

What positive democratic message have we not tried to convey to the south? We're against abortion? We're religious? What????

[GumboYaYa]

40. "I'm not saying that diebold/bbv is not a big issue,

but it is a different issue." Enough with the strawman argument.

The positive message is that the middle class grows, healthcare improves, and college is accessible to more under Democrats, among other things. Also, we need to affirmatively address the demonization that the Repugs have used against Dems in the South for years. For example, we do not intend to take away your hunting guns, we are not trying to take your jobs and give them to minorities (we just want good jobs for everyone regardles of race), we believe in choice but want to create an environment were there are fewer teen pregnancies and abortion is not a necessary choice for so many, etc.

[HotAndSpicy]

44. I wonder

I wonder if the democratic party doesnt go after BBV and vote fraud by the GOP in a serious manner because it could possibly blow up in their face with the exposure of decades of and continued vote fraud by the democrats as well?

It does seem very plausable to me.

What do you think?

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. Yup,

that's been my feelings on this. Why else would they want to avoid it? They avoid it like the plague! There has to be a reason why.

[chaumont58]

30. You can be suspected of being a Freeper just by the tone of your post...

and the fact that you are new to the DU. In our present circumstance of having an unelected Supreme Court selected resident in the White House, perhaps some other tack might be in order to further the debate.

[Skittles]

18. ZELL MILLER IS F***ING DISGRACE

:puke:

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. I AGREE!

:puke:

[haymaker]

23. You are drastically misinformed.

California did not go Republican, it went Hollywood to replace a very unpopular, and scapegoated govenor. The other issues on the ballot, conservative initiatives, were overwhelmingly defeated. They might have snuck Arny in, but he's a superhero.

The mid-term thing, sure Repubs gained some seats but the voters were still in a daze over 9/11 and the Repukes made it a referendum on security by putting the Iraq war thing front and center. Good move politically, but honest? Not hardly, purely partisan at the expense of the nation.

Mississippi going Repub? So what. I haven't looked at the turnout there yet. Kentucky? Yeah, a 39.8% turnout of registered voters is a real monumental shift. Not. What did the Repuke get, 53%? Well 53% of 39.8% is a whopping 20.6% of the REGISTERED vote. I don't even know what the percentage of registered voters is in Kentuck, but if it is close to the national average it is 70%. So to take it one step further, 39.8% of 70% is 27.86%, and 53% of that is 14.8%. So 14.8% is deciding who the govenor is should make us move to the right?

If what you are suggesting is that we become Republicans my answer to you is peddle that shit where you came from.

[PVnRT]

28. Eh?

Zell Miller hates the left-wing of the party, always has, and always will. The man sides more often with Republicans than he does with the Democrats - what does that make him? Hmmmmmm?

[chaumont58]

29. Mid term elections

The repukes gaining congression seats in the 2002 mid term elections was not the first time that has occured. As recently as 1998, the Democrats picked up seats in a mid term election. Certainly, they did not regain majority status, but the results could be viewed as a rebuke of the impeachment process, as it was the first time since 1832 that the party of the then current President gained seats in the sixth year of the presidency.

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. So all the people in Georgia who were going to

vote for Cleland just all of a sudden decided to vote for Chambliss? OK. All the people who were going to vote for Wellstone in Minnesota, overnight, turned republican. OK. The voters who were going to vote for Matulka in Nebraska just overnight decided they would rather vote for republican Hagel. Ok :eyes:

<snip>This wasn't the first Republican victory involving "Election Systems & Software" (ES&S). Former right wing radio talk-show host and CEO of ES&S, Chuck Hagel, decided he would run for the U.S. Senate in Nebraska with his own ES&S machines counting the votes. Hagel failed to mention that he had been both CEO and Chairman of ES&S on his disclosure documents, or that he was an owner in the company that installed, programmed, and operated the voting machines used by most of the citizens of Nebraska. In 1996, Republican Hagel won the race in Democratic Nebraska for the U.S. Senate easily carrying both the primary and general elections. According to Bev Harris of blackboxvoting.com, Hagel scored lopsided victories in almost every demographic group, including Black communities that had never voted for a Republican. With the widest margin of victory in state history Hagel became the first Republican in 24 years to win a Senate seat in Nebraska. On November 5, 2002 Hagel ran against Democrat Charlie Matulka and was re-elected to his second term in the United States Senate by an unreal 83% of the vote. Again, the votes were counted by computer-controlled voting machines built programmed and installed by Hagel's company Election Systems & Software.

In Georgia, Republican Saxby Chambliss repeatedly questioned the patriotism of Democratic incumbent and triple amputee war hero Max Cleland during his campaign. Chambliss made the absurd claim that he was more patriotic than Cleland even though he had avoided service in the Vietnam war with a "medical deferment". A Poll taken by the Atlanta Journal Constitution published on November 1st, just five days before the election, showed support for Georgia Democratic Senator Max Cleland at 49%, clearly 5% ahead of Republican Saxby Chambliss at 44%. Many People in Georgia, particularly veterans, had been angered by the crude remarks made by Chambliss and they turned out in record numbers to vote for Cleland. When the 'Diebold' Electronic Voting tally was made public it stunned and confused the Georgia voters. Saxby Chambliss had won with 53% of the vote compared to Max Cleland's 46%. It represented a 13% pro-Republican swing that seemed to materialize out of cyberspace. The victories of Chambliss and Hagel, along with the tragic October 25, 2002 plane crash that killed Democratic Senator Paul Wellstone, virtually guaranteed Republican control of the Senate.<snip>

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0309/S00131.htm

[CBHagman]

41. By the way, did Miller ever weigh in on the Chambliss behavior?

The Washington Times recently ran excerpts of the execrable Zell Miller book, and in it were gratuitous digs at people like Sean Penn and Martin Sheen, claiming that they were giving the finger to the troops. Since Sheen campaigned for Max Cleland, I wonder where Miller gets off making that kind of comment. Where was LOYAL ZELL when Chambliss was defecating all over Cleland? I'm curious.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. I haven't heard him speak to that.

sounds like a bunch of made up rw rhetoric to me. Martin Sheen and Sean Penn should nail his ass to the wall. SUE him.

Amazing how Miller was no where around when Max needed his help, eh? Bastard.

[CBHagman]

46. Just learned that Miller did indeed back up Cleland.

I did a Google search and found references saying that Miller did indeed speak out for Max Cleland when Saxby Chambliss made those nasty ads during the campaign. In fact, Miller went so far as to appear in an ad and speak for Cleland's patriotism. He also said it was disgraceful to attack his colleague in the way Chambliss did.

So we won't condemn Miller to eternal perdition just yet...

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Miller did that huh?

I thought I had read somewhere that Miller had been invited to speak at various events/fundraisers/rally's for Cleland and every time he was asked, he was too busy, had other obligations...whatever the excuse was. Hmmm. Guess this old memory failed me again!

Miller is still a jackass! :7

[chaumont58]

43. I think what the repukes did to Max Cleland is a god damn disgrace

That man left three limbs in Vietnam.
I had a bad email exchange with a George VFW post over what I perceived to be their endorsement of Chambliss. They denied it, saying the can't be law endorse anyone, but they could act in what they percieved their best interests and that might lean them toward Chambliss. Outrageous.

[Classical_Liberal]

36. Dean is trying to do that. Zell hates Dean most of all.

This shows you that Zell is an incinsere hypocrite. Reagan democrats were mostly dems that worked in the defense industry, so they liked his "evil empire" stuff, or old segregationst. Sorry but it's true.

[CheezDawg]

8. A DINO?

[Patriot_Spear]

10. Democrat in Name Only

What Miller really is- ia a goddam traitor.

[jarab]

15. Welcome, CheezDawg !!

...O..

[CheezDawg]

24. Thanks!

[Patriot_Spear]

11. Happens in my state all the time...

Repukes register as Dem's in order to gain office- makes my blood boil.

[Ripley]

12. The Confederate flag is not a Nazi symbol.

As so many here love to state.

Ask yourself this question...why is it that people who do not live in the south think the Confederate flag should be banned and anyone who displays one is a racist, yet I have never heard blacks in the south say that? They don't boycott the store in the mall where they sell nothing but Confederate flag merchandise. They never bring it up in legislation (lots of blacks in office). In Mississippi recently they even voted for it to remain a part of the state flag.

It is one thing to not fly the flag on capitols, or any government building, but it is quite another thing for someone to tell Americans which part of history they can and cannot display. I'm not saying blacks like the flag, but there sure isn't a groundswell to ban it down here.

The stereotype of the redneck, racist hillbilly is a very crude and insulting description of southerners.

[3CardMonte]

17. any attempt to ban the confederate flag

should be opposed and fought vigorously. To attempt such would be an extreme attack on the 1st Amendment.

[cosmicdot]

13. imo - Zell is doing the bidding of the Repukes - divide & conquer

they've been doing it for years ... Nixon/civil/voting rights Acts onward ... he is collaborating through his actions (as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell do) ... in attempt to emphasize old stereotypes and pre-urban South, myths, etc. ... sort of regionalizing issues/debate whether there's any legitimacy or not - doesn't matter - what matters is the damage it can cause Democrats ... he's a propaganda tool ... to divide us and turn attention away from vital matters, i.e. solving national issues and concerns, e.g. the economy ... a common denominator of people across demographic lines ... always a problem for Republicans.

Southerners have been abused by the healthcare system and corporations just like anyone else.

It's time the Democratic leadership dealt with Zellout now ... they should say, Zell, if you're more comfortable with the corporate fatcats, etc. ciao baby

[random]

20. Zell Miller is a Democrat the way that Jim Traficant was a Democrat...

A repuke planted there to make trouble for Democrats! Why our party continues to put up with jackasses like these is beyond me, the leadership should kick his ass out of the party and say good riddance. I know that, I for one, have e-mailed him countless times to switch parties. Geez, times are so bad, what do we have to lose. With "Democrats" like these, who needs repuks.

[hlthe2b]

22. I think we are all waiting for an answer to the "zell" question...

The only answer seems to be, he is just another REPUG sellout. Not unlike Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell, except the latter had the decency to make it official and leave the Democratic Party. (excuse my mix of the off-quoted analogy, but a Native American swapping to the Repuglican party is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders).

I would never defend either one. To understand their actions though, is simply to acknowledge that they made the conscious decision to exploit the conservative tide that was coming to their State.

To somehow use Zell as the example to explain what is going on in the South is unfair, I think, except to acknowledge the Repub stronghold that has gripped the state, (like Colorado). But there are surely liberal strongholds, (e.g., Atlanta), just like there are in Colorado (Denver, Boulder, Aspen). No monolith here, just as there is no monolith in Georgia. And, as one who was largely raised in the South, issues of race and heritage are complex. Black and white "takes" on these issues do us all a disservice.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Zell is voting repuke

because he supports rich people. He is just making excuses.