Kerry: "You might be Howard Dean, if..."

[flpoljunkie]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote.html

From ABC News' Kerry campaign reporter Ed O'Keefe:

For the second day in a row, Senator Kerry found himself in front of a New Hampshire symbol of justice talking guns and bashing nomination rival Howard Dean.

Speaking outside the Merrimack County Courthouse in Concord, Kerry went on a Jeff Foxworthy-esque riff, seeming to say you might be Governor Dean if …

" … you've changed your position on Social Security and you go on Tim Russert and you say you're not in favor, never were in favor of a 70 year age for retirement and then a week later you have to retract … "

" … you say you never supported cutting Medicare but then it's clear you did support Newt Gingrich's position … "

" … you go to the NAFTA signing, you thought it was that important to be there, that you wanted to be there to support NAFTA, and now you say NAFTA's wrong, etc … "

" … you say only three months ago that you think the Confederate flag is a states' rights issue, won't take a position on where it ought to fly, and then three months later you embrace it and now you say you're against it."

To all of these charges, the Senator offered a new to the Kerry camp but familiar to New Hampshire mantra: "That's not straight talk."

Kerry elaborated, "I think Americans deserve straight talk, I think they ought to know who Howard Dean is. And I think my record against his, I'm prepared to have it judged any day. I think the voters need to know, however, (Dean's candidacy) is a candidacy still in the making. This is a political personality and a belief system still in the making. What do you believe? What do you believe in life? Your political positions say something about what you believe."


It looks like the fight for the New Hampshire primary has been joined! Kerry also has up new ads in New Hampshire today.

[HFishbine]

1. You might be John Kerry if...

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

You are fixated on Howard Dean.

[slinkerwink]

3. lmao!

:yourock:

[Hep]

5. Aint that the truth

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN.

WHo the hell is this kerry guy talking about Dean?

[blm]

43. The guy who's telling the truth about Dean the liar.

Or would you rather wait and have Rove and Bush run these ads 40 times a day, EVERYDAY for months?

[Hep]

96. HA!

Yeah Kerry is doing it so Bush doesn't have to, great. What a guy.

[blm]

119. You look forward to those ads?

You think because the media is looking the other way now, means that they won't pay attention when it's the RNC and Bush who points out Dean's lies?

[Hep]

134. I'll tell you what I told everyone else

Rove is going after whoever the D is. He will MAKE SHIT UP. He doesn't need civil unions, he doesn't need the war. Rove will conjure demons out of thin air.

If Kerry wants to play Rove's game too, that's fine. Kerry has more than demonstrated his inability to get people to pay attention to him. If he wants to resolve himself to make HIS campaign about Dean, so be it.

[blm]

152. It's not a game, Hep. You can't afford to play ostrich.

LIES don't go away. The GOP controls most of the media. Dems can't afford a gaffe prone candidate who LIES ON CAMERA. It will be played back repeatedly, and as often as 200 MILLION dollars can buy.

[Hep]

168. It IS a game

for the people who have $200 million to spend. You're not letting my point sink in. Rove will spend his $200 million attacking whoever wins the nomination. No one is immune. Rove doesn't need anything Dean does, he will INVENT something. Nothing Dean does will add fuel to Rove's fire. He was going to show a picture of him next to a picture of Osama anyway. Nothing Dean or Kerry or Clark can do will be as bad as what Rove has already decided to do.

[blm]

185. YOU missed the point. Everyone knows what Rove will do

to all of them. The problem with Dean is they won't have to make up a lie about him. They'll use Dean's OWN words and OWN on camera lies to sink him. He has given them plenty of ammo already. Dean can't refute their ads when the words are coming out of his mouth.

If they want to attack the others, they will have to twist more and the lies they use can be more effectively countered.

Unless it's Kerry or Clark, you will also automatically lose an important character point against Bush, and that is the AWOL issue. That one issue will appall many who are completely unaware of it now.

[Hep]

192. They have nothing on Dean

The problem with Dean is they won't have to make up a lie about him. They'll use Dean's OWN words and OWN on camera lies to sink him. He has given them plenty of ammo already. Dean can't refute their ads when the words are coming out of his mouth.

He can refute the claims well enough coming from the other D's. I'm not worried. Really. Whatever they have on Dean will be better than the lies they were going to make.

If they want to attack the others, they will have to twist more and the lies they use can be more effectively countered.

Now who's being naive? Worked really well for Max Cleland. They've got Clark on his leaving NATO. They've got Kerry on IWR. If Kerry or Clark wins, the administration controls the floor. Dean supporters have been doing this for months. We will have been countering these claims since, uh months ago when everyone and their brother started spewing them out.

Unless it's Kerry or Clark, you will also automatically lose an important character point against Bush, and that is the AWOL issue. That one issue will appall many who are completely unaware of it now.

We're at a disadvantage because we had the AWOL issue 4 years ago. And they've had five or six years now to deal with it PR wise. It's not like they'll be brilliant strategists if Dean wins and incompetant if anyone else wins.

[blm]

198. That is such a reach. Kerry on IWR was RIGHT. Don't rush to war

when you don't have to. The fact that Saddam wanted to make a deal. The fact that France and Germany wanted to make a deal. Come on. Kerry is getting the inside info from top military brass and intel guys who want Bush out, not to mention Kofi Annan. Kerry can counter anything Bush comes up with, and he has the ABILITY to explain where Bush went wrong and make that case better than anyone when he is face to face with Bush. He has meticulous understanding of the issues.

[Hep]

204. Whether or not you think he was RIGHT

Makes no difference. Remember who we're dealing with. people that you know will twist it. And will have at least three times the money to get their message out. I am against his vote, and you know that, and it doesn't matter. I'm voting for him if he wins the nomination. It isn't me you have to convince.

I happen to think you're right that Kerry can defeat the spin. I think Clark can beat the spin. I don't think Dean is MORE or MOST likely to Beat Bush. I'm still optimistic enough to think that there are SEVERAL candidates who can do it

Remember I'm not the one dedicating himself to disparaging other candidates. I find it repulsive.

[blm]

209. As a longtime BFEE watcher I want Bush exposed

and done so THOROUGHLY. There is ONE guy that intel is behind, and that is Kerry. They know what Kerry knows and how it ALL links to 9-11 and Iraq. You think BushInc. isn't aware of this? They have a vested interest in knocking Kerry out before the American people can hear his case against them.

I see what the media has done this entire year. I don't trust them at all. They never really examined Dean, so it is left to those who want to see the BFEE defeated to take on the task of showing that Dean is not able to handle issues that he is not proficient in at all. Dean's a cakewalk for BushInc. He has given them plenty to play with.

Yes, he has the hot rhetoric that attracts those who feel angry. I'm as angry as any of you. But, the goal is to undercut everything that BushInc. is. And Dean is in the way of that happening.

[Hep]

213. well

There is ONE guy that intel is behind, and that is Kerry. They know what Kerry knows and how it ALL links to 9-11 and Iraq. You think BushInc. isn't aware of this? They have a vested interest in knocking Kerry out before the American people can hear his case against them.

I think that Kerry isn't the ONLY one who knows. And I think that if Kerry HAS this information and won't USE it unless he's president is kind of, well, poopy. Can he only make his case against them if he's president? HE IS A SENATOR! What the hell is he waiting for?

I see what the media has done this entire year. I don't trust them at all. They never really examined Dean, so it is left to those who want to see the BFEE defeated to take on the task of showing that Dean is not able to handle issues that he is not proficient in at all. Dean's a cakewalk for BushInc. He has given them plenty to play with.

Your conclusion remains unsupported. Considering he is in the lead. Either you think the people in general are stupid or just democrats who support him. I don't know which.

Yes, he has the hot rhetoric that attracts those who feel angry. I'm as angry as any of you. But, the goal is to undercut everything that BushInc. is. And Dean is in the way of that happening.

No he isn't. He's in the perfect position to do something about it. If Kerry is going to carry some kind of grudge in the name of political advancement, that's kind of sad.

[blm]

222. Kerry needs the biggest audience of the American people

that he can get to make that case during the debates or during a lengthy speech. If he advances what he has now, it will be piecemealed to death by the GOP and the media.

[jeter]

270. but Kerry is so desperate

It makes him look chumpy. It makes him look like a loser.

Kerry has gone, in the past three weeks, from my number three to my number 7. Even Lieberman is ahead of Kerry as far as I am concerned.

[mzmolly]

214. Then why hasn't Kerry spoken out about 911?

:shrug:

Also, as a Senator he should yield some weight on the investigation as well.

[Hep]

216. You never tip your hand!

Do you not understand poker? Why blow his wad when he can save it for a more politically advantageous time?

PLEASE prove me wrong.

[blm]

223. He publicly connected BCCI and 9-11 a month after it happened.

The case is still growing, why speak out now before its ready and lose the impact and the edge?

Why do you think Rand Beers, Gary Hart, William Perry and Joe Wilson are actively working with Kerry? This is DEAD serious business to them.

[Andromeda]

237. If Kerry got the nomination,

He would get the same treatment from Bush & Co. and you know that.

[sangha]

253. But there's a difference

Thet can't attack Kerry for not serving. They can't attack him for IWR because it was Bush*'s idea. They can't attack Kerry on national security, and they cant attack Kerry for switching positions. They can do all those things to Dean

[_NorCal_D_]

120. Don't be so naive.

If Dean wins the nomination, Bush will use all this and more to pound him into the ground. Kerry is right on the mark for bringing this up.

[Hep]

136. Kerry's as naive as you are

claiming I am. I really don't care what Kerry does. He's demonstrating that he can't make this primary season about HIM. All he can do is say Dean Dean Dean Dean Dean. Let him. That's how Dean got to where he is. Everyone is ixated on him, waiting to see what he says next. To the point where the others aren't saying anything at all.

This primary is about one guy who acts, and 8 people who react.

[_NorCal_D_]

118. Indeed.

This is definitely constructive criticism. If Kerry doesn’t bring these issues forward, you can bet that Shrub with his 500 million war chest sure as hell will. In a way, Kerry is doing you Dean supporters a favor by bringing this up.

[sendero]

160. puhleeaaaseeee.....

... one could find 100 worse lies told by Bush* (some of the folks here sound like my son when he was five years old, if I change my mind, I "lied") and you know what? The American public has shown time and time again they vote for a person, not a series of details.

Nobody gives a sh*t about these piddly misdemeanors except for the golden boy who isn't golden. Keep talking hair job, you are entertaining.

Kerry's teacup must be running over. I hope he can "get over it" when he loses the nomination, because that is what is going to happen.

[jeter]

175. Kerry has Dean envy

[DrFunkenstein]

6. Oh, Let It Die Already

Really. There's more to life than John Kerry. Just because Trippi taught his dog anti-Kerry tricks doesn't mean you have to play the dog.

[PVnRT]

15. That's a funny post

coming from a Kerry supporter, most of whom seem obsessed with the fact that Dean said bad things about him months ago when he started his campaign.

There's more to life than Howard Dean too, you know.

[sangh0]

35. Even funnier is how

none of you are actually defending Dean's atrocious gun positions. Can't say that I blame you.

[haymaker]

56. I'll defend it.

He believes it's a state's right issue and so do most voters. He thinks that the current list of gun laws should be enforced vigorously,and so do I. Some places need and want more stringent gun control laws and they should have them. Some don't. If you for one second think that more loose gun laws in Vermont have any effect on crime in New York City you are on waaaay wrong. There are litterally hundreds of millions of guns out there already. And there are plenty of states with loose gun laws. So if you are suggesting confisgation and the like, then, well, the NRA was right, you do want to take away all of their guns and you will lose.

Bitch all you want about Dean and his gun position, then whine about his unelectability. Nice consistency.

[sangh0]

60. deleted by poster

double posting

[sangh0]

61. Some defense

but you do nothing to explain why VT is the only state that allows felons to purchase firearms, and why Dean has done nothing about that.

However, you did manage to make a series of dishonest implications about my beliefs. Very consistent of you

[haymaker]

83. I confess to not knowing

every aspect of Vermont gun laws, but I certainly wouldn't take the word of a rabidly anti-Dean sort such as yourself. For example, what kind of felon? From your hysterical position it sounds like they are selling guns in the prisons.

I mean, come on, your day wouldn't be complete if you didn't attack Dean in 10 threads. Is that dishonest? I doubt it.

As for your beliefs, you've never implied that Dean is unelectable? That's your sides mantra, it is parroted here at the DU all day every day. And we know you are unabashedly against his gun stance, well, FYI, that's contradictory. You knock him about his popular gun position yet complain that he is unelectable. You see, if he took your position on gun control, he would be unelectable.

[sangh0]

86. "What kind of felon"?

Not the brightest question, haymaker.

A: ANY kind of felon can buy a gun in VT.

From your hysterical position it sounds like they are selling guns in the prisons

Let's see. I pointed out how you didn't address VT's actual gun laws, and you agree with that, but I'm the one who is hysterical?

Is that why so many of your posts, including this one, are getting deleted by the mods? Because I'm hysterical?

As for your beliefs, you've never implied that Dean is unelectable?

No.

And we know you are unabashedly against his gun stance, well, FYI, that's contradictory. You knock him about his popular gun position yet complain that he is unelectable. You see, if he took your position on gun control, he would be unelectable.

I don't understand. Clinton, who's pro-gun-control position is the same as mine, was "unelectable"?

[haymaker]

97. Any kind of felon can buy a gun in VT.

I'd love some verification of that. Not from you though, you're a little too involved in the destruction of Howard Dean to trust.

Is that a felon in prison? Is that a third degree felon on parole?

Maybe someone can give us a hand here with clarification.

Is my post deleted yet? Hit the alert button and try again. :cry:

And yes, you are hysterical. Trying hysterically to bring down one campaign while curiously not mentioning your guys positions. It's easy to be just a detractor, as you know, that's what you do.

My main point is this, you and quite a number of other here are going waaaaaaay out of your way to be negative to one candidate. While I'm sure you do support someone, I rarely see that support. It is almost like you are not on our side. While I am assuming you are, it just appears that your motives are so negative, that the common good of the liberal/progressive/moderate Democratic Party means nothing.

Kepp up the bad work.

[sangh0]

104. Oy vey!

Is that a felon in prison? Is that a third degree felon on parole?

Maybe someone can give us a hand here with clarification.

My apologies. I thought it was so obvious an explanation would be superflous. I was obviously wrong about that.

No, someone in prison cannot buy a gun. However, it's not because of the law. It's because they're locked up. They are physically unable to buy a gun. However, should circumstances change, there are no laws prohibiting the sale of firearms to felons.

IOW, the "can" in "felons can buy guns" referred to the laws of VT, and not the laws of physics

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

116. You have no argument

which is why you have to put words in my mouth. To wit:

So you are saying every felon, regardless of status, (except for the brilliant point that they cannot buy them in prison, great point by the way, you really straightened me out with that one) can legally buy a gun in VT?

No, I said there is no law in VT that prohibits a gun from being sold to a felon

[Frangible]

156. Dean hand delivers machine guns to prisoners while eating kitten featuses

OH NOS!!!!

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

124. For the reading impaired

I said "VT is the only state that allows felons to purchase firearms"

IOW, the Feds may forbid it, but the State of VT does not.

**NOTE: If you have any problems with any of those words I've posted, let me know which one, and I'll tell you how to look it up in the dictionary

[Melinda]

Please provide the VT statute that specifically allows felons to purchase

firearms as well as the specific US statute that forbids felons from purchasing firearms.

Why is the federal statute statute without force and authority in Vermont (or any other state)?

[sangh0]

166. Breaking news!!

There is no VT law prohibiting the sale of firearms to felons, so there's as much need for a "VT statute that specifically allows felons to purchase firearms" as there's a need for a "VT statute that specifically allows you to purchase a hamburger"

Why is the federal statute statute without force and authority in Vermont (or any other state)?

Not "why". It's "When is the federal statute statute without force and authority in Vermont (or any other state)"

The answer is "When the Feds don't enforce it"

[Melinda]

172. You didn't answer my question.

Please provide the statute that allows felons to purchase firearms in VT.

Are you familiar with Constitutional law, sangh0?

[sangha]

254. You're funny

Please provide the statute that allows you to put cream in your coffee.

Are you familiar with Constitutional law?

[Melinda]

263. You're funnier

The onus is on you, my dear, since you made the initial claim. Show your legal authorities or admit that your 'VT allows felons to purchase firearms' assertion is false.

If you had been with an attorney earlier today, she most certainly would have shared a modicum of her legal expertise with you, at least enough for you to understand states subordination to federal authority (pesky Constitution); ergo, Vermont "allows" no such thing, and you should stop repeating such nonsense.

Have a lovely weekend, sangh0

[sangha]

265. I'm glad to hear that

So maybe, since you're a lawyer, it'll be OK to assume you know that the states authority is only subordinate when the Feds choose to assert their authority by prosecuting the case? There are plenty of times when the Feds choose not to prosecute (due to budgetary concerns, workloads, etc) and leave it to either the State or local authorities.

And you should also know that there's no burden to claiming that something is allowed under a set of laws. Things are allowed unless there's a law saying they are not. In this case, the burden is on the one claiming that something is prohibited by state law. That would be you.

[Melinda]

266. Where do you come up with:

"...the burden is on the one claiming that something is prohibited by state law. That would be you."

Where did I make this claim? Please post it, thanks.

*edited to add --

"Things are allowed unless there's a law saying they are not."

Agreed. Controlling federal law says firearms may not be sold to felons in Vermont. Glad you finally admitted this. :)

[HFishbine]

144. Call me impaired

Okay, explain it to me like I'm a six year-old.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits convicted felons from purchasing or posessing a firearm. It's a federal law. It applies to all states.

Now, please tell me what I'm missing. Are you saying that VT should have a law that prohibits felons from purchasing a firearm even though federal law has prohibited this since 1968?

[Melinda]

146. You holding your breath up there?

Me neither. ;)

[HFishbine]

154. Called on crap

.....chirp, chirp, chirp.

[Melinda]

163. His "opinion" is disingenuous, at best.

Seems he has cut bait, Fish. :eyes:

[sangh0]

167. OK. Impaired,

Yes, VT should have a law that prohibits felons from purchasing a firearm even though federal law has prohibited this since 1968 because if the Feds don't enforce the law, a possibility whenever a NRA-loving Repuke is in office, then the state has no recourse.

Would you argue that states should repeal their murder statutes because the Feds make murder a crime also?

[Melinda]

You need educate yourself with Fed law, VT, and NICS

because frankly, sangho, you don't know what you are talking about in the instant case, and the "murder" reference is just another attempted fallacious argument.

Review the legislative history and requirements within the Brady Bill and establishment of NICS, and try again. Oh, and please provide the specific statutes that support your assertion that VT allows felons to purchase firearms - 90 minutes later and I'm still waiting.

[sangh0]

173. Tell it to my lawyer

who is standing right behind me. But you'll have to wait until she's done laughing at the idea of a law that allows something in order to prove that something is not illegal.

Please cite the law that allows you to put cream in your coffee.

[Melinda]

181. How about I call you and your attorney. Maybe she and I went to law school

together. :) Got a number?

[sangha]

255. Sure

Send me your number, and I'll see if I can set something up. But first, prove you're a lawyer and find that statute that lets you put cream in your coffee.

[HFishbine]

182. Okay

I'm with you. Seems an absurd premise, but okay, let's roll with it.

Vermont hardly stands alone as you contend.

Wyoming: No restrictions on felons.

Montanna: No restrictions on felons.

Alaska: Felons restricted from posession of hand guns only.

Maryland: Felons restricted from posession of hand guns only.

Many other states allow felons to posses guns after a certain number of years beyond the completion of their sentence.

So, in the future, you might want to remember that ""VT is the only state that allows felons to purchase firearms" is not correct. Several others do, some even allow them to purchase hand guns, and some even allow purchases before the restoration of civil rights. But VT does not stand alone.

[sangha]

256. OK

and that improves Dean's positions on guns ....how?

[absyntheNsugar]

122. I believe in a right to choose

whether its abortions or guns! (that soundbite is for sale - please contact me with offers, thank you)

[MessiahRp]

16. LMAO

Funk-

When you wrote that and with Sharpton's head next to the quote it actually looked like he wrote that line. :)

Rp

[DrFunkenstein]

44. In Hindsight

I can see him saying that!

[livinontheedge]

7. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Awesome response!!!!!!!!

[Demobrat]

13. Heh.

Good one.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Why not just admit you can't defend Dean's inability to

define his views and stick with them? A careful comparison of his changes of position to other candidates' changes of position would show Dean to have done this more than anyone else.

Excessive evolution of views = waffling, flip flopping, lack of a core of belief.

[mzmolly]

91. A Kucinich supporter questioning the inability to stick to your views?

hmmmmmm.

[_NorCal_D_]

123. If there is one thing a like about Kucinich,

it's that he does indeed stick to his views. His supporters are also some of the nicest on DU. :)

[Demobrat]

183. Oh sure, he sticks to his views.

Except when it comes to that crazy little thing called choice.

[JohnKleeb]

127. come on thats one view

Hes pretty consistent and you know so. BTW I read his reason for the change and I completely respect that. Now I admit, I dont frequent Dean for America but I would like to know and please be respectful what has had Dean changing his mind on NAFTA, I/P, just curious to know really.

[mzmolly]

202. Actually I have more respect for those that 'evolve' on the issues

then those that refuse to budge. I respect a persons ability to change their mind, and admit when they were wrong.

Also, if you want to more about Dean, his website is here. I refuse to rehash what has been hashed here on several occasions.

Peace John.

www.deanforamerica.com

[Skwmom]

233. Evolve on the issues. Can you really believe what you are saying? e/o/m

[sangha]

257. No wonder you like Dean, then.

Dean's sure has done a lot of "evolving" in the last year or so.

[Castilleja]

17. Ah, Thanks!

Sure would be nice if John Kerry would expound more often on what HE believes in (I know he does on occasion). This is getting really obvious now. How can you thrill people with your fine record when you won't talk about your fine record? Why does he insist on being a walking disclaimer?

[Jacobin]

20. You might be John Kerry if:

You voted for the war resolution and pretend that you were "misunderstood"....or "misled"......or whatever.

[DrFunkenstein]

23. You Might Trust The President If

You're name is Howard Dean. Kerry said we were misled over the Niger scandal - months after he voted. Let's see what the doctor has to say:

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president...I think we were misled.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9


''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/206/oped/Dean_won_t_let_Kerry_off_the_hook+.shtml

[mb7588a]

49. All of us were misled about Iraq,

don't you remember the 90% support for the war?

All of us have been misled since November of 2000....

[Jacobin]

72. Rong

War support was 60% WITH UN resolution which we never got.

NOT everyone was misled. Lots of stories and OPEDs prior to invasion by King George First's minions saying DON"T DO IT.

I spent two weekends faxing, mailing and emailing congresscritters begging them to vote no.

Kerry sent back a spam email saying we have to invade because Iraq is a serious threat to the US.

He fucking trick fucked us along with Smirk and he's in congress and should know better. He did it because he thought it would screw up his presidential aspirations if he didn't.

He's a fricking warmonger.

[Cocoa]

27. I liked Kerry's better

:-)

[Selwynn]

33. LOL - ding ding!

[bleedingheart]

62. snort!

teehee that's what this looks like..

[paulk]

73. Why don't you respond to the article?

Make an argument. Foolish posts like yours' do nothing to advance the cause of your candidate. John Kerry just criticized your man - defend him!

[RetroLounge]

102. DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

Kerry Who?

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

[_NorCal_D_]

115. Come on now,

is that the best you can do? Kerry brings up some genuine concerns about Dean and all you can do is put your head in the sand?

[meegbear]

2. Go Kerry Go!!

Yeah baby!!

[LuminousX]

4. Strongest Attack against Dean

Kerry elaborated, "I think Americans deserve straight talk, I think they ought to know who Howard Dean is. And I think my record against his, I'm prepared to have it judged any day. I think the voters need to know, however, (Dean's candidacy) is a candidacy still in the making. This is a political personality and a belief system still in the making. What do you believe? What do you believe in life? Your political positions say something about what you believe."

Don't attack Dean and say he is wrong, lying, etc., just say that he is still developing and we don't need a leader in the White House who is still trying to sort out his stance on so many issues.

[billbuckhead]

8. Dean's not lying or flip-flopping, he's "developing"?

That beats all.

[Padraig18]

21. Kinda like Kerry's 'nuancing'.

Isn't that right? :)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. ain't that the truth LX

but listeners of Kerry's peroration should have no trouble drawing that conclusion on their own.

[Hep]

31. This is where we elaborate!

Please tell me one plank on his platform that has changed since he threw his hat in the ring.

A lie is a lie is a lie, and it's ugly.

[DrFunkenstein]

32. Um...Cuba? Um...Israel (well, not really)? Um...American standards?

I'm sorry, did you just want one?

[Hep]

81. I wanted elaboration

In what country is one word considered elaborate? Thanks for nothing.

[sangh0]

88. Too bad

what you asked for was this:

Please tell me one plank on his platform that has changed since he threw his hat in the ring.

A lie is a lie is a lie, and it's ugly

[sangh0]

39. LOL!

I like the way you limit the inspection of Dean's record to when he announced. I'm sure it's just coincidence that that eliminates almost all of Dean's record.

[Armstead]

9. Kerry can go to hell

At some point one of these folks is going to be the nominee. And if it's Dean, Kerry is going to eitehr have to eat a lot of crow or start campaigning for Bush.

Come to think of it, he already sounds like he's campaigning for Bush with this kind of nonsense.

Criticizing the positions of rival nomination candidates is one thing. But thee personal attacks are only giving Mr. Rive a hard on.

[DrFunkenstein]

26. Personal Attacks? It's Dean's Friggin' Record!

Calling someone "Bush-lite" or a "cockroach" is a personal attack. Highlighting the significant difference between someone's record and their Presidential platform is...legitimate! Zoinks!

[blm]

38. You think Bush doesn't have Dean's lies and inconsistencies catalogued

and ready to air in ads that will run 40 times a day, EVERY DAY for months?

Get real. Dean's own words were ALWAYS going to come back and hit him. You want to hear it now or later when it's too late?

[polpilot]

46. Kerry does seem a bit out of control. This disappointment was expected

but he'll need to get a grip at some point.

Dean '04...

[mb7588a]

53. They all have said they will campaign for the nominee,

beating George W. Bush is more important than anything else.

[DrFunkenstein]

55. Absolutely - We Need Someone Who Can Actually Get Elected

The GOP has Dean's number, and it isn't difficult to put it together.

[KaraokeKarlton]

100. I'd prefer Kerry NOT help Dean

Especially considering the "stellar" job he's doing with his own campaign. :eyes:

[_NorCal_D_]

129. Nonsense.

These are hardly personal attacks. If you want to see a personal attack, I would refer you to the debate in which Dean practically cussed out Gephardt, merely because he had some questions regarding Dean's health plan.

Not to mention the fact that Dean was a blustering bully during Tuesday's debate.

[NicoleM]

10. Okay.

and then three months later you embrace it

Whatever teeny amount of respect I had left for John Kerry just went out the window, down the street, and hurled itself in front of a speeding train.

I don't have a problem with him "bashing" Dean as long as he is HONEST about it.

[sfecap]

11. John Kerry:

"Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean....that's all they want to talk about".

Gee, John...every time you open your mouth, your poll numbers go down! Keep talking!

[DrFunkenstein]

28. Did You Notice During The Flag Flap...

That Dean people were all over Kerry? Funny, since EVERYONE condemned Dean's comments - even Dean!!!

Get over yourself.

[sangh0]

42. That's not true

They also attacked Edwards, even though Dean himself said that he thought Edwards was genuinely hurt by his statement.

[sfecap]

64. As Johnny sez: "Get over it"!

Your guy is a loser. All he has is the Dean bash.

He should be making more excuses about his IWR and Patriot Act votes.

Oh, wait, I forgot...he's already done that!

[DrFunkenstein]

67. What Does Dean Have Beyond IWR

You guys have nothing but IWR, which is why Dean punked out on the one-on-one. If they break the debates into groups, Kerry will smack Dean like a prison you-know-what.

[sangh0]

74. IWR and the PATRIOT ACT, and (oh yeah) 18% of the vote

With all the publicity Dean's gotten in the last few weeks, he still cant break 20%. That's the Dean "Juaggernaut". His election, with 18% of the vote, is "inevitable"

[sfecap]

77. Uh Huh...

What's it like in that fantasy world? :-)

Seriously...perhps Johnny should spend less time talking about Dean and more time talking about his campaign. Maybe then he'd actually get out of the national single digits!

[Hep]

138. If they had a one on one between Dean and Kerry

You'd have TWO people talking about Dean. One talking about Dean's position now and one talking about Dean's position 8 years ago.

Either way, it would be all about Dean. And you know who the winner would be.

[w4rma]

217. I hope you don't mind if I use that analogy later, Hep.

It is right on target. :hi:

[Hep]

218. By all means

It's public domain!

[Skwmom]

230. I still don't see how Dean has IWR

He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

http://fordean.org/aa/issues/press_view.asp?ID=398

Dean sounds like a unilateralist to me.

[PVnRT]

18. How does Kerry feel

about Kucinich flip-flopping on abortion?

[mrgorth]

19. Wow does that stuff sound weak!

This is why Kerry is losing. Why doesn't he bust out some of this top secret info about the war he's holding back on?

[pruner]

22. he should bust out that poll which shows him 15 pts ahead of HRC too

:bounce:

[walkon]

24. Weak.

That's the word I was looking for! Jeff Foxworthy - funny (once)
John Kerry - weak (and getting weaker).

[killbotfactory]

25. You might be Kerry if...

...You think moderating a position over a 10 year period is a cause for concern.

...You voted to give Bush a greenlight to war, and then complain about it when he does what everyone thought he would do.

...You criticize someone's position on NAFTA when it's exactly the same as your own.

...You suck as a candidate.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. "Moderating!"

That's hilarious. Really. You should be a DJ.

[killbotfactory]

162. Despite what Kergephart think

Dean hasn't drastically changed any positions.

He's still for NAFTA, and WTO but wants to add protections for workers, environment, etc...

Yeah, I would say that's moderating a position, not a flip-flop.

[Eloriel]

36. You might be John Kerry if ...

...you misrepresent your opponent's position in order to criticize it.


... you want to consign High Schoolers to the indentured servitude class.


... the only way up in the polls is through Dean.


... your campaign sucks, and you wouldn't even have anything to say were it not for adopting Dean's remarks, or bashing them.


... you don't have anything new to say anyway, and the ones you do have are pathetic (and not working either).


Eloriel

[sangh0]

48. Gee, I guess it's true

Dean supporters can't refute even one of Kerry's claims. Instead, they resort to name-calling and misstating the facts like "you want to consign High Schoolers to the indentured servitude class"

[DrFunkenstein]

57. Hey, You Went The Slave Camp Route!

Classy. Real classy.

Also, keep in mind that Dean went to front-runner by bashing Kerry and misrepresenting his positions.

And his foreign policy speech was a pale copy of Kerry's.

[Octafish]

29. The truth hurts. John Kerry should mention the draft, too.

You might be Howard Dean ... if you have to bring a note and an X-ray from your doctor to dodge the draft.

Here's a guy with a bad back who JOINED the US Navy:

[eissa]

34. I'm glad he dodged the draft

I'm glad Clinton did it too, as did my cousin, as did many members of both political parties. At least they're still alive. My heart aches for all those young people who died (and continue to die) in vain.

[DrFunkenstein]

41. I Would Be Glad If He Resisted The Draft

But getting Daddy Warbucks to find a nice doctor to give you a note is not something to hip-hip-hooray. I won't knock him, but I won't say, "thank you," either.

[Eloriel]

68. He didn't dodge the draft

The Army doctor classified him 1Y.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

75. Nah, he just came in with a full set of medical records

documenting his affliction. I do that all the time. No biggie

[blm]

132. Draftdodging was nowhere the issue in 92 that it will be in 2004.

Post 9-11 and war on terrorism reality has crafted a different mores.

[Forkboy]

147. It wont be an issue this time either

Bush and Rove know better than to try that one with any of the candidates.

[Skwmom]

150. Dean - the only candidate which can make Bush look like a war hero.

Oh yes Rove and Bush will use Dean's draft dodging. The Dems can kiss the military vote goodbye.

[polpilot]

224. BOTTOM LINE: Dean will end Bush's political career as he has Kerry's.

He will do it with the same ease that has obliterated Kerry's chances of being the president of the U.S. His repub handlers will respond the same as Kerry's supporters have. Disbelief...denial..shrill tantrums.

Dean...The Real Terminator...Brilliance Unleashed...The Rabid Hulk...

P.S. I strongly feel that IF Dean would have gone to Vietnam, broken back (??) and all, that there would not now be 1 Vietnamese on earth. Terminate...Seek and destroy...The Dean...

[Skwmom]

231. But in the geneal election the press will be repeating the

exposing of the real Howard Dean by the Rove Machine every hour on the hour until they've made the Democratic party look like a big bunch of liars and hypocrites.

[Forkboy]

247. So maybe you should work to set them straight

instead of enabling them :shrug:

[blm]

161. Yeah, sure. Their advocacy groups will do it for them.

.

[mzmolly]

203. I don't think Bush dare play the 'draft dodger card' do you?

:shrug:

[Skwmom]

232. Yes Bush will play the draft dodger card.

The AWOL has never stuck against Bush and even if it does Bush can claim he was going through Detox and pull a Rush.

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Dean supporters jeer now, will cry later.

If the Democratic Party is foolish enough to allow Howard Dean and his adoring supporters to bully their way into the nomination, Dean will be eating crow after a landslide victory for Bush. Dean will get tepid support from the many Dems who've listened to his attacks on Democratic leaders as BushLite and his many gaffes and flip-flops. Arrogance is a major turn-off to most people.

I've read recently that McGovern's hardcore supporters were arrogant elitists, but those of us who were just rank-and-file Dems enthusiastically supporting McGovern with money and votes didn't see that going on. With the internet, we're all seeing the arrogance of Dean supporters and it's adding to the ill will Dean generates for himself.

Truly, Dean and his supporters are their own worst enemies.

[Hep]

141. And I could have sworn

If the Democratic Party is foolish enough to allow Howard Dean and his adoring supporters to bully their way into the nomination, Dean will be eating crow after a landslide victory for Bush.

So much for voting! Apparent;ly all we have to do is bully. How many people vote for us is apparently unimportant! Go fig.

[Le Taz Hot]

40. Yeah, Kerry, you're Dean bashing

seems to be doing wonders for you. 14 points behind Dean in the latest polls. Keep it up, guy. It's working REALLY well -- for us.

Kerry: "Mumble, mumble, Dean, mumble, mumble, lies, mumble, mumble, NRA, mumble, mumble...."

[bevenro]

47. Kerry vs. Dean goes online

OK...this is NOT a DIRECT reply (and I crossposted a bit trying to find my way around) but I found this interesting.

There's a big fat letter from Dean on the Mass. Democratic Party's website (www.massdems.org). It's legit, since they have on the site that they requested letters from all the candidates, but I bet the Kerry crew is really loving it..check it out. Maybe it'll entice the other candidates to pay some attention and get in touch.

[hedda_foil]

Okay. Here's Dean's letter to Mass Dems .... and your problem is .....???

edited to remove lots of blank lines at the top.

A Letter From Howard Dean
(November 6, 2003)


Dear Massachusetts Democrat:

In my travels across the country, I have met many Americans who love their country and believe deeply in its promise. But they feel that Washington, and particularly the Bush Administration, just isn't listening.

Under this Administration, nearly one in ten retired people has had to return to the work force because they have lost their pension. Young people are returning to live at home after graduating college because they cannot find work. More than 43 million Americans lack health insurance, according to government figures. That number alone rose by 2.4 million people last year.
In my five terms as Governor of Vermont, I have learned that it doesn't have to be this way. Together, we can take action to make powerful changes. Ninety-six percent of children and 92% of all adults now have health insurance coverage in my state. One-third of seniors in Vermont have a prescription drug benefit, and as President, I will work to lower prescription drug costs nationwide.




"Success by Six" is another program that has proven itself in Vermont. This program, in which all new parents - regardless of income - are offered a home visit from a community outreach worker, teaches parenting skills and puts families in touch with services they may need or want. Thanks to Success by Six, we've cut our state's child abuse rate nearly in half, and sexual abuse of children under six is down by 70%.

Many Americans are concerned that our nation has lost its way under George W. Bush. We cannot lead by force alone. We must work towards clearly articulated and shared goals, with the cooperation and respect of our allies.

Howard Dean


I opposed President Bush's war in Iraq from the beginning. While Saddam Hussein's regime was clearly evil, it did not present a clear and present danger to U.S. security. This Administration failed to plan for the postwar period, and failed to bring our allies on board. We must quickly enlist international aid to rebuild Iraq. With new leadership in Washington, we can redirect our course toward winning the war on terrorism.

Closer to home, the economy, education, and the environment must become priorities again. President Bush's irresponsible fiscal policies have turned the nation's largest surplus in history to the nation's largest deficit in history. We must repeal the Bush tax cut and return America to a course of financial stability.

President Bush's 'No Child Left Behind' Act leaves students to falter at the starting line. Standards and accountability are important. However, rigid and unrealistic mandates, incentives for lowering standards, burdensome sanctions, over-reliance on testing, and demoralizing labels are not.

In Vermont, I worked toward high standards, assessment, and accountability for our schools, making our state a national leader in education. As President, I will work to strengthen our schools by focusing on parental involvement, recruiting and retaining outstanding teachers and administrators, and providing the resources to fund key federal mandates such as special education.

My Administration will also take ambitious steps to strengthen clean air and water standards, promote renewable energy sources, conserve wild and open spaces, strengthen downtown areas to reduce sprawl, and provide a safe and healthy environment for our children.

Finally, America needs to restore its ideal of community. We need a President who will value our diversity as a nation, not divide us by race, gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation. Please visit our website (www.deanforamerica.com) for more information and to join our grassroots campaign, or visit www.massfordean.org to get involved locally.


Sincerely,
Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

[Walt Starr]

45. I once again am casting Kerry into the pit of "No Vote"

with Lieberman.

Phooey.

[blm]

50. Can't handle the truth, Walt? You want to see Dean's words used against

the WHOLE Democratic party when Rove is running ads like this 40 times a day EVERYDAY for months?

YOU haven't noticed Dean's lies and inconsistencies....fine...many of us have and I'm sure Rove has them well catalogued.

[Walt Starr]

52. Fuck Kerry

'nuff said.

He will NEVER get my vote under any circumstances.

[blm]

82. Just what the GOP is hoping. Good for you for sticking

with the Nixon crowd and their 30 year campaign against Kerry.

[Scott Lee]

228. Awwww wassamatah? No entitled nomination for your boy?

Let me play you heart rending eligy....

[blm]

260. Hmmmm...well...the entitled media decided to push Dean....lucky you

Unlucky for the Democratic party which will take years to recover from the landslide for Bush. Just as the media intends.

[_NorCal_D_]

135. Why?

Kerry only brought forth issues that Bush n' friends are sure to emphasize if Dean gets the nomination.

[JackRiddler]

131. GIMME BREAK ALREADY! - they will run the same ads regardless

What difference will it make to the GOP?!

What are you saying, if Kerry's the candidate, the GOP will not attack him?!

They will run 40 ads a day completely mischaracterizing anyone they are up against.

Whoever he is (or she, if it's Hillary), they will find every "flip flop," no matter how trivial.

In Kerry's case, they will run some statement where he supported the IWR.

Failing all else, they will run the nominee's face and stick a RAT over it. They will say he smells! They will say he's Qaeda! Anything will do!

They will have no scruples whatsoever, and they will run 40 ads a day regardless. This is completely irrelevant.

[blm]

155. Nope...they will do that. But, why give them so MUCH ammo

with so MANY Dean lies and inconsistencies that he has made ON CAMERA?

[Walt Starr]

248. What about Kerry's lies and inconsistencies?

Name a Democrat who doesn't have lies and inconsistencies?
I'm sick of Kerry's lies and inconsistencies and this batch was enough dfor me to forget about ever voting for him, at least for most of the afternoon.

After calming down, I'll now vote for the evil bastard because he's not quite as evil as Bush. I won't campaign for him and I damn sure won't donate money to him, but I'll hold my nose and bring my puke bucket and vote for the evil bastard if he gets the nomination.

[blm]

262. Kerry hardly makes gaffes, and the big storyline with Kerry as the nominee

will be how he CONTRASTS with Bush. Bush went AWOL, Bush shootsfromthelip while Kerry speaks elegantly and thoughtfully. Kerry rarely makes gaffes or inconsistencies, so there is nowhere NEAR the load of ammo that Dean has generated.

[sangh0]

51. Stop the presses!!

We were really hoping we'd win you over Walt. You've really come across as having an open mind on Kerry. We're crushed

[Walt Starr]

54. Until today, Lieberman was the only Dem I refused to vote for

Kerry joins him now.

Fuck him.

[DrFunkenstein]

59. Gee, We're Really Broken Up

You seem like such a nice guy, too.

:pals:

[sangh0]

63. Kerry joins Lieberman?

Again?

(I count three times, so far)

[Walt Starr]

70. Yep, and things change in the race

failure to allow for your opinion to be altered by breaking events indicates a closed mind.

My opinions are as fluid as the times.

If the general election were to be held today and Kerry was the Democratic nominee, I would vote third party.

That could change (and it has five times by my count). It's up to what Kerry has to say, but he's pissed me off enough today that I doubt it.

[sangh0]

89. Your opinions are fluid?

So should I expect that you'll change your mind on IWR?

[Walt Starr]

93. That one is doubtful

Although I have changed my mind about the importance of IWR as an issue. I would still vote for Gephardt or Edwards in the GE at this point.

That could change. The IWR was evil and voting in favor of it was an evil act, IMO. When I get to a GE with a choice of the lesser of two evils, I am more open to a third option.

[sangh0]

125. Now there's a surprise!

.

[Walt Starr]

128. I also consider anybody who was in favor of the IWR

to be an evil person.

[haymaker]

58. Yeah, you guys will win over lots of folks

with you continual negative bullshit.

[sangh0]

65. You mean Kerry still has a chance with Walt?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't believe that.

[Walt Starr]

66. He might

but as things stand now if Kerry is nominated, I will be voting third party.

The same holds true for Lieberman and has for a while.

Everybody else seeking the nomination would get my vote in the general election at this point.

[DrFunkenstein]

69. Rage Against The Machine, Baby!!!

Rock out with your bad self. No, seriously. Rock out.

[sangh0]

76. Wow. Your graciousness and generosity

underwhelm me.

[DrFunkenstein]

71. I'm Sorry, We Take Back "Fuck Kerry"

And apologize for any ill-will we may have caused.

[sangh0]

78. And on behalf of ALL the Fuck-Kerry-ers

I'd like to just say "I know that Dean is NOT a liberal!!"

[Egnever]

80. fuck kerry!

Dean is not a liberal!

[_NorCal_D_]

140. I'm glad that

you, as a Dean supporter, can admit that he is not a liberal. He is in fact a luke-warm Libertarian.

[Walt Starr]

148. Dean definitely isn't a liberal

but he also didn't vote for the IWR, which the evil Kerry did (only evil people could vote in favor of the resolution IMO).

[_NorCal_D_]

169. Good point.

Out of curiosity, which candidate do you now support?

[Walt Starr]

180. Eh it's a tossup these days

Some days I'm for Dean, others I'm for Clark. Either one would suffice, IMO.

If I were going strictly by my heart, I'd be 100% behind Al Sharpton. He's the only candidate telling it like it is.

If the crap from the Dean and Clark camps keep going the way it has been, I may end up supporting Rev. Al, and I've been one who has always sworn he would never support a clergyman for president.

[knight_of_the_star]

193. There is a reason he didn't vote for IWR

Maybe because HE WASN'T IN THE SENATE WHEN THE VOTE WAS TAKEN!

[haymaker]

85. That's a start.

Now promote your guy or girl.

[jobycom]

79. Geeze. I think they both lost it.

Dean backs down on a statement he said he wouldn't back down on, costing not just the votes of those he angered with his statement, but then the votes of the people he originally courted. Count him out, even if he wins the nomination.

Kerry is just plain wack these days. Dean never embraced the confederate flag, he reached out to southerners. Kerry is ensuring that southerners won't vote for him. That includes Florida. So he won't win.

Sigh. It's going to be a long five years, barring that magic wand I keep claiming doesn't exist. I don't even care what position they take on these issues, they both blow it so bad politically it doesn't matter what they say.

[blm]

84. AW, too bad. They were so hoping that only Rove would use Dean's own words

against him. They were waiting for Rove to play those ads using Dean's own words 40 times a day EVERY DAY for months. Now you went and told the truth before they were ready for it.

[spindoctor]

87. Why do Dean supporters have a hard time facing the truth?

What happy little world do you guys live in? It sure is not my realm of reality.

I am, as you might know a proud member of the Kucinich camp, and as such I have heard many accusations of being a dreamer. Regardless, I am still capable of seeing the flaws in "my" candidate.

You Deanies simply don't want to hear the obvious truth. Kucinich, Kerry, Sharpton and even Clark are trying to tell you something here. Dr. Dean does not have a firm stance on his issues.
Sure, everybody is entitled to change their minds and that includes Dean. But for crying out loud, it isn't just on one issue. Doesn't that tell you anything? How am I supposed to trust this man?

Seriously. How am I, as somebody who was never a big fan of Dean, supposed to believe another word that your imperial leader is telling me? The average Deanie on this board sure isn't doing much to tip my scale. Maybe I am lost for the cause (chuckle), and already branded an outcast, but humor me. Give it your best shot.

I'll make a bet with you. I will remain open minded for the duration of this thread. If you manage to bring me a minimal level of confidence in Howard Dean, then I will make him my second choice after Kucinich (and we all know how big his chances are at the moment). If you fail, I will file him forever with Joseph Lieberman.

Here's your chance, Deanies. My soul is up for grabs. Give it your best shot.

[Hep]

105. I'm not going to try

to sway you. You perceive what you perceive.

But i f you want me to see this "truth" you seem to know, then you're going to have to do a lot better than thrpowing out vagueries. How has Dean's platform changed since the beginning of his campaign?

And please don't try to use single words. Don't say, "Cuba", be cause if that's all you say, it reflects a lack of understanding of the issue.

I don't give a rats ass who your second choice is. Why should I? You have IRV in your precinct?

[sangh0]

108. But you will try disingenousness

like asking "How has Dean's platform changed...?" and limiting it to the period "since the beginning of his campaign?" when Kerry's claim is that Dean has changed his positions because he's running for President.

[spindoctor]

153. Suit yourself

"But i f you want me to see this "truth" you seem to know, then you're going to have to do a lot better than thrpowing out vagueries. How has Dean's platform changed since the beginning of his campaign?"

Vagueries? I am referring to the subject of this thread, among other things that I am sure you have heard before. No need to rehash it all.
Besides, I detect this unsettling loyalty amongst Dean supporters that I am not going to touch with a pole of any given length.

I don't _want_ you to see the warning signs (or should I say flags? lol), I am merely wondering why you don't see them.

Anyway, this is not about you. This is about me. My vote in the primaries should Kucinich drop out and my support and vote should Dean make it to the end race.
It'll be that or ABB - 2.

Save me! Save me! lol

(still trying to stay open minded)

[Hep]

177. Thanks

Vagueries? I am referring to the subject of this thread, among other things that I am sure you have heard before. No need to rehash it all.
Besides, I detect this unsettling loyalty amongst Dean supporters that I am not going to touch with a pole of any given length.

There is nothing substantial in this thread. Nothing new. Just a new delivery of weak information.

Besides, I fully expect to be perceived as narrow minded when asking Dean Bashers for specifics. Anyone who talks to me here long enough knows I'm not. I admit Dean changing position on the death penalty, and on not taking matching funds. I'm bothers by many things that Dean has done. I'm just not willing to buy the garbage being regurgitated here.

I'm not the one lashing out constantly with negative allegations about other candidates. I rebuke them as I do the allegations against Dean. I know why I'm supporting Dean and I know why I'm not supporting the others. I just find it reprehensible that some people here will trot out these ridiculous and mean spirited accusations when we could be talking about the merits of policy. And I'm apalled at the complete refusal of EVERY candidate basher here to showing their research.

[sangha]

259. And I bet you really believe that Hep

despite the glaring inconsistencies like "There is nothing substantial in this thread" vs. "I admit Dean changing position on the death penalty, and on not taking matching funds" while avoiding some of Dean's other flip-flops like AWB and Cuba and complaining about "negative allegations about other candidates" and "ridiculous and mean spirited accusations when we could be talking about the merits of policy" while the candidate he supports calls the Dems "Bush-lite" and "cockroaches"

[deutsey]

164. It's not up to me to convince you of anything

(This is hastily written and probably needs a good edit...I just don't have the time to do it. I hope it makes sense).

I'll just try to say why I went from almost leaving the Democratic Party to coordinating a Dean Meetup in my community.

Ever since Bush stole the election in 2000, I've been dismayed and disgusted by how the Democrats have rolled over and complied with practically everything this fascist (and I do see him as a fascist, in that Mussolini said that fascism was a blending of state and corporate power) asked for.

Add to that the debacle of the 2002 election and the way the Dems voted for the Patriot Act, Iraq, and the tax give aways to the wealthy, and I had left the Democratic Party, I just had not officially changed from Dem to Independent on my registration.

Then a friend asked me to go with her to a Dean Meetup in Baltimore back in June. I hadn't given much thought to him (I was an early Kerry supporter but grew tired of waiting for him to stand up to Bush when it counted, during a vote, rather than during a Democratic dinner speech).

Dean just happened to be on the cover of In These Times (a lefty publication I subscribe to) and the article was rather supportive of Dean. So that aroused my curiosity more, but I went to the Meetup still very skeptical about Dean.

Then I saw the diversity of enthusiastic, energized people--the grassroots you hear so much about--at the Meetup, and I saw how much they, the volunteers, defined what they were doing (instead of some politico with an agenda), and I felt like I was part of something that could revive our comatose democracy. People (real people, many who never got involved politically before) WANTED to come together, talk politics, organize events, cheer for their candidate, etc.

My experience at campaign meetings never came close to what I saw there at the Meetup. It's usually a top-down arrangement, sometimes cliquish with the political in-crowd telling the volunteers what to do. At the Meetup, the volunteers (and they were all volunteers, including the coordinators) felt ownership of the campaign.

This made me want to learn more about Dean. The more I learned, the more I liked him. No, I don't agree with him on everything (I didn't agree with Clinton on a lot of things), but I liked that he was standing up and speaking out against Bush. Other Dems were too, I know, but, for me, the way Dean spoke out and what he stands for resonated with me and I felt it could resonate with a large coalition of people in the center, on the left, and even moderate conservatives. To me, that is essential if we are to beat Bush's far-right/corporatist coalition.

I like practically everything Kucinich says. Like Studs Terkel, however, I just don't think he has a chance, for the reason I just mentioned: unlike RFK (whom some have compared him to), Kucinich will have a helluva time bringing in the center, and he will have an even harder time chipping away at Bush's base.

I've gone from being a disgruntled Dem who was believed our democracy was dying or dead, to coordinating my own Dean Meetup (the first time I've ever done anything like this...and it definitely shows sometimes, :-)). I see how Dean's message and the grassroots effort is bringing in new people to his campaign all the time (and we're in a rural community).

Without going into all the issues I agree with Dean on, what I've just described is why I support him. His campaign has revived my belief in our system and the Democratic Party. What you choose to believe in is up to you; I'm sharing here my experience with you. Take it or leave it, but my support comes out of that experience.

[mzmolly]

90. You might be John Kerry if...

You lied about polls beating Hilary Clinton

You lied about having asthma

You lied about being Irish

I'm missing a few things, but I'm ABB, so I'd rather not delve too deeply ;)

[Melinda]

114. You might be John Kerry, if......

*You flip flop on the use of medical marijuana...

*You flip flop on ending double taxation of dividends...

*You flip flop on supporting Free Trade Agreemnets...

Pot - kettle - black.

:eyes:

[Khephra]

244. You might be John Kerry, if...

You find Howard Dean kicking your ass in the polls!

:evilgrin:

[KaraokeKarlton]

92. Poor pitiful Kerry

He doesn't realize he's preaching the wrong things to the voters of NH. It's going to kill him there the stuff he's saying. All the more power to him. What a dumbass he is.


edited a typo

[mzmolly]

94. Reply...

" … you've changed your position on Social Security and you go on Tim Russert and you say you're not in favor, never were in favor of a 70 year age for retirement and then a week later you have to retract … "

Dean changed his position over the past 8 years, is this really news worthy? I don't recall every position I had 8 years ago. Healthy human beings 'evolve'

" … you say you never supported cutting Medicare but then it's clear you did support Newt Gingrich's position … "

Dean supported Bill Clintons position.

" … you go to the NAFTA signing, you thought it was that important to be there, that you wanted to be there to support NAFTA, and now you say NAFTA's wrong, etc … "

He sees NAFTA needs repair, I agree, if something doesn't work, it's healthy to recognize that.

" … you say only three months ago that you think the Confederate flag is a states' rights issue, won't take a position on where it ought to fly, and then three months later you embrace it and now you say you're against it."

I think we all know the story here, classic bullshit spin from John Kerry.

[spindoctor]

159. I'll give you one out of four

" … you've changed your position on Social Security and you go on Tim Russert and you say you're not in favor, never were in favor of a 70 year age for retirement and then a week later you have to retract … "

Dean changed his position over the past 8 years, is this really news worthy?

Not if he hadn't lied about it, and not if it would be an isolated case.

I don't recall every position I had 8 years ago. Healthy human beings 'evolve'

Healthy human beings don't have CRS. We had one president with Alzheimers already. If I was ever in favor of a 70 year retirement age, 8, 10 or 20 years ago, I would remember that.

" … you say you never supported cutting Medicare but then it's clear you did support Newt Gingrich's position … "

Dean supported Bill Clintons position.

Don't spin the spindoctor. He supported cutting Medicare.

" … you go to the NAFTA signing, you thought it was that important to be there, that you wanted to be there to support NAFTA, and now you say NAFTA's wrong, etc … "

He sees NAFTA needs repair, I agree, if something doesn't work, it's healthy to recognize that.

Yes, and when you are an inspired leader, it is even healthier to recognize that before you sign your name to it. But again, it would not be a big deal if this was an isolated incident.

[mzmolly]

200. Thanks, I'll give you ZERO ...

;)

if he hadn't lied about it, and not if it would be an isolated case

Lied, or forgot what he said? Lied, or considered it momentarilly before dismissing it?

Don't spin the spindoctor. He supported cutting Medicare.

He did momentarilly, As did Bill Clinton

and when you are an inspired leader, it is even healthier to recognize that before you sign your name to it. But again, it would not be a big deal if this was an isolated incident.

Yes, like before voting to send people to war and die, you should be sure there is a reason for said war. However, Dean isn't too proud to see that NAFTA has had some failures. I respect that about him.

[Forkboy]

99. John who?

?

[JNelson6563]

101. My name's John Kerry and me and my supporters

are some of the most bitter people on earth. This was suppose to be my nomination! Mine!! Hear me!! But no, that Dean comes along, says Iraq war is bad and Bush is an asshole and people follow him!!!

This was suppose to be MY turn!! Mine!! And when my backers saw I was losing to Dean they put their money on someone else!! All because of Dean!!!!

I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean! I hate Howard Dean!

Julie

[quinnox]

110. Dean and the Titanic have a lot in common!

Is it wise to back someone who will get creamed by Bush??

[JNelson6563]

142. Dreamer

but I don't blame you. I know you hate the guy. Thsoe two big union endorsements must sting. They obviously really hurt Kerry. He should have read the tea leaves when Clark jumped in. That was a messeage to him from the establishment.

I foresee Dean/Clark.

Julie

[polpilot]

210. Kerry's acting like a high school girl who lost the Homecoming Queen

crown and this is why he is unqualified to lead the country. If he would have opposed the Sheperd Bombing Resolution in a strong and forceful manner then he would have been the nominee...BUT if he would have opposed the Sheperd Bombing Rersolution in a strong and forceful manner then he wouldn't have been John Kerry.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Demoiratic Party.

[Scott Lee]

229. ...all 40 of them....

....who up and left after all the free waffles and coffee ran out...

[Andromeda]

241. Just too funny!

:bounce:

[Andromeda]

243. Just too funny!

:bounce:

[Cat Atomic]

103. You might be a politician if...

you reference stale pop-cultural crap in an attempt to be hip.

Nothing against John Kerry, mind you- I just always cringe when politicians do the macarena.

[quinnox]

106. DEAN=TITANIC

Anyone who wants to win in 2004 should avoid Dean like the plague.

[Walt Starr]

109. KERRY = WHIG PARTY

Anybody who wants the Democratic party to exist after 2004 should avoid Kerry like the plague.

[Octafish]

111. Kerry is a fighting Liberal.

Don't believe me, look at what the ADA, ACLU, CDF, NAACP, Planned Parenthood, Sierra Club and any other Liberal and Progressive organizatin says. John Kerry has been there since he began his Senate career — doing what it takes to advance the Liberal agenda.

Oh yeah. Dean talks about it. And that's his problem, because that's ALL Ho-Ho's ever done. Talk talk talk.

[Walt Starr]

139. Kerry voted for IWR

That makes him little better than Bush in my eyes when I take into account all of his other accomplishments.

Gephardt and Edwards too.

Fuck Kerry. Get him nominated, I'll go to a Green board and campaign against the fuck.

[Skwmom]

179. You're right Dean is the Titanic and if he's the nominee will take

the Democratic Party down with him. How can we complain about Bush's lies with any moral authority when our own candidate does the same thing?

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

113. True

but I bet your post gets deleted all the same :D

[Hep]

117. A response

HAIKU STYLE!

Desperate Kerry
Has no message of his own
Must go after Dean

[deutsey]

121. Precisely what I was going to say

only not so cleverly.

:evilgrin:

[blm]

126. Kerry has the most comprehensive policies of any candidate.

The media only talks about Dean so the truth about Dean must be dealt with.

You didn't like that Gore didn't talk about Bush's lies and distortions, did you? Well, it's way past time that the other candidates expose Dean on his weaknesses. It's better for the party. Dean's weakness has always been his looseness with the facts and the truth. Not just a detail here or there like Gore who was smeared unfairly....Dean's are all out lies and distortions.

[Hep]

133. The media?

YOU are the one who is always fixed on Dean. The media is fixed on Dean because most of the other candidates can't stop talking about him either. This is so funny!

Look at how pathetic your post is. Your subject line says that Kerry has the most comprehensive policies, and the body of your post is nothing but inflammatory Dean bashing! It's exactly what I mean. Whatever Kerry's platform is, he has no message.

BLM is neat
Always here to prove my point
thanks for that, my friend.

[quinnox]

130. ...if you are a complete phony.

You might be Howard Dean if you missed your calling as a CULT leader.

You might be Howard Dean if you are the master liar and panderer, and flip-flop on whatver issue to please the crowd you happen to be speaking to.

[Forkboy]

137. ahhh...not enough hyperbole to be a good Dean bash

back to school for you :spank:

[dave29]

143. All Kerry is doing is making Dean more pallatable

to swing voters. Not to mention exposing his own lashing out temper problem.

[Hep]

145. He's doing so much more

He's helping make this whole primary season about Dean. Kerry is just another Dean Basher. A face in the crowd with a website and some cash. Every second he's ripping Dean, he's NOT promoting himself. Rock the fuck on!`

[blm]

157. That's not temper, it's dealing with the media image of Dean

and the fact that the media will only talk about Dean. So...Kerry has to deal with Dean as an obstacle now. he was very methodical, and not showing temper.

Dean provided the ammunition with his own "on camera" lies.

[Hep]

158. if his goal was for the focus of attention to be on Dean

mission accomplished!

[dave29]

171. Kerry feels entitled

and now he's having an entitlement tantrum

[Scott Lee]

227. As do all Statists. And that's the problem.

It's alos the very reason they don't deserve the nomination.

Down with statist elitism!

[Skwmom]

149. Dean is the "Flim-Flam" Man

I just heard Kerry say that the American public doesn't want flim-flam. That is what we have been saying around my house in describing Howard Dean. From now on I'm referring to Dean as the "Flim-Flam" man in honor of Kerry who had the guts to call a spade a spade.

[Hep]

151. I'd like the usual please

Big claims, hold the proof. Side of fries.

[Skwmom]

176. I love your statement.

But maybe more like a side of lies.

[Hep]

178. Thanks

I get a lot of that from you guys too.

Big claims, hold the proof, side of lies. I like that.

[paulk]

165. So, Kerry has decided to go after Dean directly

Well, payback is a drag. Dean has been bashing ALL the other candidates since the beginning.

I believe Kerry makes a solid argument. Four months ago, Dean was my number two choice. Then I started looking at his actual record of governance in Vermont - and found major disconnects between that and his positions now. The Howard Dean who was governor of Vermont seems to be a completely different Howard Dean from the one who is running for president.

Some may call this evolution. Some may call it flip-flopping. I call it an opportunistic politician who is willing to take whatever position he thinks will win him an election.

Kerry's positions, like them or not, have been pretty consistant over his entire career. And, to be honest, I don't like all of them. But, over time, Kerry has convinced me he is a man of principal - Howard Dean has not.

[HFishbine]

186. Except

That it's not a drag. It does no harm to Dean and no good for Kerry. Look, Kerry is still in my top four (he used to be in my top three), but if he's going to have any chance at all, he's going to have to find something to gain some momentum and "Howard Dean sucks" is not going to be it. He's just spinning his wheels and wasting his time.

[blm]

189. It sucks if he's making it up. Is what he's saying true and

if it is shouldn't Democrats examine Dean's ACTUAL record a little closer before he's anointed the nominee based on his RECENT conversion to populist positions?

Bush won't show ONE OUNCE OF MERCY.

[HFishbine]

197. Contradictions

Wait a minute. Your argument is that if Kerry doesn't attack Dean on these things, Bush will? Kerry's trying to assert that Deans not much of a democrat. Do you think Bush is going to pick up that mantle? Do we really have to fear Bush saying, "Howard Dean once agreed with Newt Gingrich?"

Besides, this whole notion that this is the right track for Kerry is predicated on the belief that if Dean supporters could just be perusaded to see the error of their ways, then Kerry would advance. I see no reason to believe that. It's just dumb really. For two reasons:

1) Dean backers are more likely to fall behind another outsider (Clark) than they are a Washington insider.

2) With over a third of the dem and likely dem voters undecided, it makes much more sencse to go after them with a message about Kerry, rather than to try to change the minds of Dean supporters or disuade the undecideds with a negative message about Dean.

All of this just makes me wonder, when was the last time Kerry was in a competative race?

[blm]

221. The media hasn't scrutinized Dean, so somebody has to do their job

for the Democratic party. Kerry is willing to fight back on Dean just as Dean was willing to start attacking Kerry while he was OFF the campaign trail after his cancer surgery.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

190. Nope. I see what paulk sees here too.

which is that Kerry is flaunting his pedigree- that is, his long career in politics, and that his views are much better grounded than the relative newcomer Dean. I think this is exactly the pitch Kerry needs to be making, and he is well suited to do it in from here on out.

I think Kerry has found the course he can hold and carry all the way to the nomination.

[quinnox]

170. I hope this is just the beginning

Time for all other candidates to take Dean DOWN. A unified front, everyone against Dean the Titanic. Time for Dean to EXIT STAGE LEFT.

[Skwmom]

174. I'll second that. e/o/m

[NewYorkerfromMass]

184. If Dean really is the Titanic

then Kerry need not worry. He will find his own icebergs to hit.

[HFishbine]

187. Ahhh

the "Survivor" primary. Think that through why don't you. Who's the last one standing in that scenerio? The strongest? The smartest? The most competent? No, just the one who was hated least. That's a real winning recipe. "Vote for me. I'm the least objectionable."

[mzmolly]

206. They try, and he surges in the polls every time. I think its time they

realize that. If they had ignored Dean, I don't know that he'd be the front runner? :shrug:

[Tesha]

188. Maybe I shouldn't let this info out, but

I went to Dean's Town Meeting in Nashua NH last night, I only heard him compare himself to bush - and he never once just "bashed" - he always offered his platform to compare the two.

In my opinion Dean is running for the presidency...

The gent next to me said that he used to believe that he'd vote for Kerry - but just got tired of all the attacks on Dean - he said it felt like he wasn't running for the presidency - he was only running for the Democratic primary......

Kerry is making a mistake here, and its only hurting the party in the long run.

[JNelson6563]

191. Well said Tesha

I've gotten a great response on a recent mailing I did for our local party. In the forms I had folks send back I've gotten several comments from folks saying they'll support our local party but the Washington Dems are acting terribly.

This latest broadside form Kerry, on the tail of the dog-pile at Rock the Vote only turned people off. It is my hope that folks don't take a look, see this crap and walk away convinced they can't make a diffence by getting involved.

Nice to read a report from someone with a first-hand report of a non-televised Dean event. Thanks for posting it. :hi:

Julie

[Tesha]

196. the event was stunning

Dean was funny and smart - had us looking forward to a country that's full of hope again. The Dean volunteers tried to get as many undecided folks to the event, so that they too can experience him in person...
Over 400 folks, notified just 2 days before, poured into the little auditorium and gave the man several standing ovations - after one he blushed and said that he still couldn't get used to folks standing for him.
He answered every question from the audience with charm and wit, despite the fact that these folks weren't hand-picked. Some of the questions were hard for him, some easy - but he never flinched. I think he's a good and honest man, and I hope like heck that he becomes our next president -

[Skwmom]

235. An honest man does not lie. e/o/m

[JNelson6563]

250. nice hit and run

I see you have raised your standards. Cleaner get-aways. Good for you for striving to improve!!

Julie

[blm]

201. Dean started the attacks and got attention, setting the tone.

The others held back NOT wanting to get into that attack game. They are reciprocating now, and the media is portraying Dean as a victim, when he is the one who threw the first twenty punches.

Dems used to notice who threw the first punch.

[mzmolly]

208. I agree, Dean seperated himself from the pack, but he was less personal

about it. He stated the truth, the others are grasping at straws and lying.

Dean admited when he misspoke on a few occasions, I have yet to see any other candidate do that.

[blm]

212. Name one lie that it's in that list above.

Dean calling them Bushlite and saying Kerry needs a backbone transplant isn't personal attacks? Sheesh.

His attacks on the Democrats and the whole party are what made the media focus on him. Just like they focus on Zell Miller. It makes their job of serving their corporate masters so much easier when the ill will towards the Democrats comes out of another Democrat's mouth.

[Hep]

219. Please

respond to my post below about needing Kerry supporter help.

[Hep]

220. Please

respond to my post below about needing Kerry supporter help.

[Skwmom]

236. The only problem with that list is it doesn't expose all of Dean's lies.

I think we should all pitch in for an infomercial and bill it as the Unmasking of Howard Dean

[Skwmom]

234. Kerry is trying to save the party and every thing he has worked for

from going down with the Dean Titanic. Kerry is only speaking the truth about Dean.

In comparing himself to Bush did you notice the similarities (arrogant, will say anything to get elected, bullies, and on and on and on....).

[knight_of_the_star]

194. What excellent defenses on the part of the Deanieboppers!

It seems that they are employing Right Wing-esque tactics that have been tested on Wes Clark and John Kerry before that. Name-calling makes for nasty attack rhetoric, but it doesn' actually have substance. I have yet to see a single post here by the Deanies that refutes what John Kerry has said. All I have seen is repeated insults of John Kerry. And that by itself has determined for me that if Dean wins the nom, I'm going to have to toss a coin as to whether to vote for him or the Green Party.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

195. Well, their master and leader has set a fine example

with clever names such as BushLite and cockroach, so what's the surprise.

[Hep]

205. You are officially invited

to respond to my post below.

And do I have to repeat my lesson about literary devices for you? You're way behind the class on that one.

[Hep]

199. I'm going to need a little help from the Kerry people

First, when did Dean go back and recant what he said on Russert about raising the age to 70?

As far as I know he favored CONSIDERING it, but never came out in favor.

Second, it's misleading to claim that he favored cutting medicare when he actually favored cutting the growth of medicare. On top of that, you'll have to explain to me how a few years later, his admitting to changing his mind, is a BAD thing. My understanding is that he learned from CLinton that you don't need those kinds of cuts in order to keep it solvent. See, it's a little misleading as well to leave out the fact that he was trying to maintain the solvency of the program. You lump him in with the right wing as if he wanted to get rid of the programs forever, which they do. It's really unfair.

Third, Dean isn't saying that NAFTA is wrong. He's saying that it is messed up. And it is. He supported NAFTA for the same reason Clinton did. Because he thought it would do good. And he thinks it still can. But it needs work. It's unfair to characterize Dean the way he is characterized above. It is intended to deceive people into thinking that Dean has bad intentions. It's tantamount to lying.

" … you say only three months ago that you think the Confederate flag is a states' rights issue, won't take a position on where it ought to fly, and then three months later you embrace it and now you say you're against it."

To think that he can sum up the entire confederate flag debacle with this sentence is arrogant and idiotic. There are a hundred threads from the last few days on this issue, and they clear up really well what went on. He never embraced the flag. Not once.

So if you can help me out with my questions and adequately explain how I'm wrong, then feel free to do so, but you can no longer claim that you haven't seen a single post that refutes the words above.

I question your dedication to liberal principles if you vote green.

[knight_of_the_star]

211. I question your tactics

Considering that the Green Party is the most liberal one out there, I don't see that as wavering of liberal principles. I'm Green anyway, I'm just voting Dem in '04 becauseI DO NOT want Bush in office. I have never bothered to disguise that stance to begin with anyway. At least SOMEONE is responding with (mostly) facts and not (mostly) insults. Now if the same standards could be used when flaming Clark, that would be a great improvement, although not likely to happen. I do find your little gibe right at the end to be VERY insulting. If you want to accuse someone of being a traitor when the accusation is unwarranted, that is a blow that is WAY below the belt. I still re-iterate what I said about voting for Dean earlier mostly because I find his tactics of calling Congressmen "cockroaches" and anyone who disagrees with or opposes him "Bush-Lite" to be very tasteless and something that only a Republican would use.

[Hep]

215. well

Considering that the Green Party is the most liberal one out there, I don't see that as wavering of liberal principles.

It is when you are willing to sacrifice your ideals for your idealogy. You're willing to give up on ANY progress so that you can pout.

I'm Green anyway, I'm just voting Dem in '04 becauseI DO NOT want Bush in office.

That's fine, I thank you. But you just said you're not voting dem if things don't go the way you want. So I question whether or not you really want Bush out of office if you decide to vote green.

At least SOMEONE is responding with (mostly) facts and not (mostly) insults. Now if the same standards could be used when flaming Clark, that would be a great improvement, although not likely to happen.

I agree, but you have to be consistent in wishing NONE of us had to put up with this kind of inflammtory rhetoric. It isn't like every attack on Dean is TRUE and every attack on Kerry or Clark is FALSE. You have to be fair.

I do find your little gibe right at the end to be VERY insulting. If you want to accuse someone of being a traitor when the accusation is unwarranted, that is a blow that is WAY below the belt. I still re-iterate what I said about voting for Dean earlier mostly because I find his tactics of calling Congressmen "cockroaches" and anyone who disagrees with or opposes him "Bush-Lite" to be very tasteless and something that only a Republican would use.

I'm sorry you feel insulted. But I'm not going to lie or let you off easy. I feel the way I feel.

I gave a very informative lecture earlier on the use of literary devices. There's this thing called SIMILE. Here is the definition:

"a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses)"

Dean never called congress cockroaches. He used simile. It used to be more common. I guess some people just don't get it when they see it anymore.

And I don't think Dean coined the phrase Bush Lite. It was the very complaint being shared by the GREENS all through 2000. Were you not green then? Remember a vote for Gore is a vote for Bush? If you denounce the tactic, then I hope you will reply and say you denounced it when greens used it.

[blm]

225. Your post doesn't completely exonerate Dean

but it does show dean's slippery style and his attitude that *he didn't say those things but if he did then it's because he changed his mind later.....much later.*

[mzmolly]

207. Then you haven't read the thread. Here you are...Again.

:)

http://deandefense.org/archives/000596.html

*Nafta*

http://deandefense.org/archives/001029.html

"Dean’s position is straightforward. International trade needs international standards on labor and the environment. Without them, trade becomes a race to the bottom. This means Mexican workers deserve the same right to organize as American workers. NAFTA’s existence provides us the leverage to get it for them. This means Chinese workers deserve clean air and water. The WTO provides the leverage to get it for them. President Dean will use that leverage. But that leverage would not have existed without President Clinton’s courage in leading the world toward free trade. Governor Dean supported his courage, while Gephardt opposed it, and President Dean will show the same courage."

*Medicare*

For a history of the non-scandal see here

http://deandefense.org/archives/000671.html

"Here's the summary of Dean's stance on the retirement age for social security:

Gov. Dean used to be in favor of raising the retirement age to 70.

After President Clinton demonstrated that Social Security could be better-funded with a strong economy, he gave up that position.

Given Social Security's current state, he later entertained the idea of raising the retirement age to 68 (it is currently 67).

Currently, he is against any increase of the retirement age.

In order to fix Social Security, he is now in favor of either raising or removing the salary contribution cap (currently set at $87,000).

"As far as the controversy is concerned, he admitted he misspoke at the AFL-CIO event within 24 hours after the misstatement was made."

*Confederate Flag*

http://deandefense.org/archives/001362.html

"But, once again, look at what Dean is doing. He is Telling The Truth. He is breaking through the rhetorical lies that have given our political opponents such a huge advantage. And he is doing it in an up-front way.

This is what makes Howard Dean unique among the Presidential candidates of our lifetime. Howard Dean says the things we're afraid to say for ourselves. Racism is alive, hypocrisy is alive, and the only way forward is to sweep both away, now, once and for all."

[paulk]

238. you bring up a valid point

One of the things that led me to take a second look at Dean was the vitriol of many of his supporters here on D.U. I don't think it's completely out of bounds to judge a candidate by his adherents, and there is a sizable contingent here who do no credit to Dr. Dean.

[TLM]

268. Here you go.... each lie slamed and refuted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=669456#674268

[Scott Lee]

226. Kerry's acidity is expected. He's a loser.

Poor guy.

[sistersofmercy]

239. HAHAHA! What I love best about Kerry, his clever wit. And to the rest

of you, SOUR GRAPES! Yum Yum! Don't discuss the facts attack the speaker.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

240. Hypocritical bastard.

#1." … you've changed your position on Social Security and you go on Tim Russert and you say you're not in favor, never were in favor of a 70 year age for retirement and then a week later you have to retract … "


MR. RUSSERT: In ’96 you told The Globe you would look at raising the retirement age. You—no?
SEN. KERRY: I would not—I said that was one of many options that were out there that people would put on the table. Back then we were talking about putting everything on the table. I would not do that, period. http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/960385.asp


Should I go on or stop there?

[killbotfactory]

242. Dean "flip-flops" Kerry "nuances"

Kerry's heald the same political beliefs since birth, and has never changed. EVER.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

245. Dean "lies" Kerry "makes slaps at the press"

I have shit on virtually every one of his statements showing his own "nuancification." Have yet to start a thread with it though, it's funner to watch them eat themselves alive.

[bitchkitty]

246. You might be John Kerry if:

You're way behind Howard Dean in the polls and eaten up with envy.

[eileen_d]

249. You might be John Kerry if:

Howard Dean is ahead of you in the race, yet you're immensely more qualified to be president.

[JNelson6563]

251. and you dropped the ball when it really

mattered and everyone was watching. Ouch.

Kinda makes one question the "qualified" thingie you mention.

Julie

[DrFunkenstein]

252. Qualifications Schmalifications, Dean Didn't Vote For The IWR

What else matters? 4 years of not voting for the IWR - now that's impressive!

[JNelson6563]

258. I'll break it down for you

nice and slow.

If you vote on a matter such as war and you take the seemingly obvious path to political benefit and it turns out to have been the wrong path, well consider a spoiled WH run small as compared to what the war has cost some others.

Or should they just "get over it"?

Julie

[sangha]

261. And I'll break it down nice and slow for you

since that seems to be your preference.

IWR was not a "vote for war"

[TLM]

269. So the Iraqi WAR resolution...

was not a vote for war?


Eventhough it authorized war in Iraq.

[bitchkitty]

271. Hardly -

Surely a qualification for President would be electability, and he's just not impressive enough. Sorry.

[Hippo_Tron]

264. Kerry is pushing my limits...

If I were him I'd just let Dean make an ass of himself. There's no reason to jump into this rivalry.

[TLM]

267. At least Kerry was honest in saying "That's not straight talk." after that

" … you've changed your position on Social Security and you go on Tim Russert and you say you're not in favor, never were in favor of a 70 year age for retirement and then a week later you have to retract … "

Dean did not have a policy position that he wanted to raise the SS age to 70, he listed it in response to a hypothetical question about what things might need to be done if a balanced budget amendment passed in 95. He never had any policy of trying to raise this age or supporting any attempt to do so.

This is another in a long line of lies and distortions from Kerry's camp.


" … you say you never supported cutting Medicare but then it's clear you did support Newt Gingrich's position … "

Dean has been very clear, he supported cutting the administration end of Medicare to pay for expanding coverage. Dean expanded Medicare in VT. Again another cheap shot from Kerry trying to claim that because Dean favored cutting administration to save the program and cover more people, that he supported Gingrinch's plan to kill Medicare.


" … you go to the NAFTA signing, you thought it was that important to be there, that you wanted to be there to support NAFTA, and now you say NAFTA's wrong, etc … "

Another lame spin. Dean supported NAFTA, and he still does. However that's not to say he thinks NAFTA is perfect. After running for 10 years we can see problems with NAFTA that need to be fixed, and Dean supports reforming NAFTA. To try and paint this as Dean saying NAFTA is all wrong is another sad lie from Kerry.



" … you say only three months ago that you think the Confederate flag is a states' rights issue, won't take a position on where it ought to fly, and then three months later you embrace it and now you say you're against it."

Dean said that while he personally didn’t think they should fly the flag, he felt that is was a state issue, and he is right. The federal government has no business telling a sate what they can have on their state flag.

And it is just disgusting that Kerry continue to claim Dean EMBRACED the confederate flag... what he was embracing were working class white southerners who should be voting democratic.