Nader on Dean "He can't deliver-he can be George McGovern...

[Rowdyboy]

on steroids, but when he gets into the corporate prison known as the White House, he can't deliver". And Ralph thinks he can? I truly wish he would just shut up and let the serious candidates get the race underway.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20031124&s=sifry

LOTS more (3 pages) in the nation, especially from Greens who are not entirely thrilled that Nader is toying with another run as a Green. Worth bookmarking.

[Jacobin]

1. Memo to Nader

Eat sh-- and die, and thank you for making George F---ing Bush president.

[Monte Carlo]

7. No, Al Gore did that.

When he stood by and took Bush's crap with a big smile.

[tom_paine]

15. But Nader helped. Nader helped REAL GOOD!

"We're gonna blow it up. Blow it up REAL good."
--"Morning Farm Report" SCTV

[Monte Carlo]

18. Al Gore didn't want to help himself.

He sat back, watched Bush make all kinds of wacky accusations, and took them. Then he tapped Lieberman for VP. That was the last straw.

[BiggJawn]

41. But-but-but-but...He was just following Terry's strategy!!!

"Mastermind MacAuliffe" strikes again! Hell, with Donna giving daily reports to Karl, too.........

Nader....What a PUTZ! Shut UP, Ralf!

[Carolina]

68. I totally agree about Lieberman...

When the media fawned over Gore's selection of Lieberman, I had a sinking feeling we would 'lose.'

Nader can go masturbate and then lick his fingers. But I totally agree that Gore did not help himself because he stupidly ran from Clinton, did not have a rapid response team to counter the Bush/media sighs and lies, and most importantly did not aggressively seek a complete recount -- every district, every county -- in Florida from the get go.

[TLM]

98. Gore got more votes than any dem ever...

so obviously he did something right... he did win the most votes.


And Nader is a self-important douche bag.

[corarose]

103. NADER IS A F*CKING PIECE OF SHIT!

The election was ripped OFF big time and AL Gore couldn't do anything about it if he tried.

WAKE UP THE BUSH THUG STOLE THE ELECTION AND NADER HELPED!

[Jackpine Radical]

104. Goddamit. Gore won.

He won FL, but thef$%king Democratic establishment wouldn't back him on the last mile. They were calling on him to cave. He did, finally. What would you have done? No support from your own party, the prospect of a presidency ruined from the beginning--can you imagine the vitriol, the hatred, the accusations, the outright mutiny of the wingnuts? It would have been a Presidency not worth having.

[regnaD kciN]

112. BS!

If that was "the last straw," please explain how Gore, who had started far behind Bush in the polls, then managed to overtake him and went on to win the popular vote?

I've read more CRAP from both the left and the right on how the 2000 election was all Al Gore's fault for "running an incompetent campaign." They forget that, at the time his campaign started, he was trailing Bush in the polls by over 10%. The fact is that the negative impression of Gore was formed before he started campaigning -- and I would argue that a lot of it was a reaction to Clinton's imagined sins. Sort of "well, we can't get rid of Clinton no matter what he did, because he's been doing a good job as President, so we'll take it out on his designated successor."

But this "incompetent campaign" canard is just plain false...if it had been so incompetent, he would have started out way back and stayed there, losing the election in a landslide. Instead, he won the election. And, if it hadn't been for Ralphie, he would have won by a large enough margin that even all of Dubya's horses and all of Dubya's men couldn't have found a way to get around the vote results.

:grr:

2. my sentiments exactly

& I voted for Nader in 1996.

[Ediacara]

3. and Nader (not a green) thinks he CAN deliver?

[SammyWinstonJack]

Oh he can deliver all right

Another 4 yrs for Bush* that is. :argh:

[AP]

4. He said if Kucinich is out, he might be in.

He's also said nice things about Edwards, so it'd be interesting to see what he'd do if Edwards were nominated.

I think all the other candidates clearly don't pass his litmus test, and Dean's record in VT is the antithesis of what Nader believes in, so, although a lot of people like to think of Dean as being sort of like a Green pol, I'd be surprised that anyone would be surprised by this statement by Nader.

[jeter]

29. Nader is always changing his tune

He's playing with us. Ralph Nader will do what is best for Ralph Nader's ego. Plain and simple.

[Terwilliger]

84. Nader is always changing his tune...why...because you say so?

Nader has said for nearly a year that he would support Democrats with Dennis Kucinich as the nominee.

[Tinoire]

94. He is? When did he change tune?

He's been consistently saying this for about a year now.

What changed?

[Monte Carlo]

5. The gap between Dean and his supporters will have to be resolved.

Sooner or later. Dean gets his reputation as a hardcore liberal because that's what his supporters are. Dean himself is a more conservative Democrat with some decidedly conservative views who happens to be slamming Bush more effectively than the other candidates. Eventually, the gap between them will have to be resolved, and I don't see how that can help his campaign.

[sendero]

9. did it ever occur...

.... to some of you that being anti-war and for economic justice does not mean you are a hardcore liberal?

As soon as you stop trying to put everyone in a neat little box, maybe you can get your mind around what is happening here.

[Monte Carlo]

14. Dean's not anti-war, he's just anti-this-war.

I know what is happening just fine, thank you. Dean's campaign exists as it is today because of the IWR vote.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. you got that right- Dean is "opportunistically" against "this" war

next week he'll be somewhere else on yet another issue.

[sendero]

34. I'm glad ....

... you think it is that simple. Must be nice.

[Monte Carlo]

37. I do think it's that simple.

Dean's campaign was a shoe-string operation before the IWR vote, barely a blip. He's gained the momentum he has because he's ridden the anti-war wave.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

135. Riiiiight

That's the same anti-war wave that has catapulted Kucinich, Braun and Sharpton to the upper stratosphere of the polls.

[Speck Tater]

19. I find it odd that people still believe

that Dean or his supporters are all hard-core liberals. I've been a Dean supporter for quite some time now and I'm not under any illusions concerning his location on the political spectrum. He's more centrist than most of the other candidates and he's not "anti-war".

Most of the people I run into at the meet-ups and rallies are, like me, very middle of the road, and not suffering from any such illusions either. From where I stand inside the Dean crowd it really puzzles me where this idea comes from that "someday Dean's supporters will figure out that he's not a flaming ultra-liberal and they'll all desert him." 'Taint so. We know who our candidate is and what he stands for. We are neither blind nor stupid, nor are we "infatuated" with an ideological fantasy image of our candidate.

In other words, there is no gap between Dean and his suporters. That is a wishful fantasy shared by many of Dean's opponents, but having no basis in reality.

[Monte Carlo]

40. Oh, I think there is.

For example, the fact that Dean has an A rating from the NRA when most Democrats get D's or F's. That tells me there is going to be a gap.

[Arugula Latte]

48. You have to look at the big picture, though

Take me. I am proudly liberal, fairly far left (but not radically so). For example, I would consider myself to be strongly in favor of gun control. I am also a realist. I am also a Dean supporter. I think Dean is absolutely right to neutralize the gun issue. We can't afford to spend our resources fighting the NRA in this election. There are other issues that are important to me, and Dean is great on most of them. I don't expect to agree with him 100%. Frankly, I'll take anything over 80% or so. I want a candidate who is not afraid to stand up to the press and the Republicans. Dean is that guy. That is a large part of why people are responding to him. And I think ultimately that will win Dean the nomination.

[Cha]

69. Boy! Are you ever a

Pragmatist! :D

[MercutioATC]

105. Not if you're not a single-issue voter...

I'm O.K. with Dean on most things, but I'm not crazy about his death penalty stand. If I was a single-issue death penalty voter, that would kill Dean for me. I'm not a single-issue anything, however. I think the same holds true for most Dean supporters. There's no rift because we understand what he elieves and what he wants to do. I don't know a single Dean supporter that isn't in touch with Dean's positions. I also don't know any that are 100% in favor of all of his views. I do however, know a bunch of Dean supporters who like what Dean stands for and what he is attempting to do.

Dean supporters are NOT 2-dimentional. We see the real Dean and choose to support him because we feel he is the best person for the job, not because we love every single thing he has to say. I really don't see a rift here.

[ozone_man]

130. Another pragmatist.

Dean makes all the right compromises in my opinion. Socially liberal, fiscal conservative, supports the constitutional right to bear arms as did our forefathers. I don't own a gun, but I sure as hell support the right to own one. But I've got alot of fishing rods, so watch out. :)

Dean is a centrist and is eminently electable, but not just because of that, so much as that he is a fighter for rights, and they are being taken away from us. People see the spark when he talks and they too catch on fire.

In a perfect world, there might be someone more liberal than Dean to win, but I think he supports the issues that are important to me, while being electable at the same time.

On edit: BTW, I voted for Nader in 2000. He had his chance IMO.

[absyntheNsugar]

54. Yes I've always felt

It's the libertarian-leaning Dems that make up his supporters (like myself.)

On civil liberties, he's really liberal. Pro-choice as they come, we would never see a patriot act Signed by Dean.

But fiscally conservative. Not a slash and burn the social programs type, but not a public works kinda guy either.

[KittyWampus]

60. Dean Is Certainly NOT The Candidate Who's Slamming Bush

Most effectively.

Clark not only is more effective he's more comprehensive and has alot more WEIGHT.

[Cha]

70. That's your opinion.

[Elidor]

6. While I don't doubt that Nader himself is an expert on this subject

I don't see that he has anything germane to offer to the discussion.

[ShaneGR]

8. Ralph Nader, attention-hungry GOP Pimp, may he rot in hell

Just when I think that human virus has finally slunk back to his dungeon, he reappears to help George Bush AGAIN. Hey Ralph, FUCK YOU!

[Iverson]

76. correction

attention-hungry: certainly

GOP pimp: absolutely not, and you know this. You must have been thinking of Zell Miller, or possibly the Democratic Senators who voted for the $87B in appropriations for Bush's corrupt Iraq plans, or possibly those members of your preferred party who voted to give Bush a blank check to invade a country that wasn't threatening us, and so on.

Now carry on foaming.
"Hey Ralph, FUCK YOU!"

as thoughtful and analytical as ever.

[ShaneGR]

133. Perhaps you don't understand me

Ralph Nader knew exactly what he was doing in 2000. He knew he was helping to elect George Bush so he could be remembered for 20 years as the man who helped elect George Bush.


PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Nader was nothing more than an opportunist, and he fooled your whole crowd into believing it didn't matter if George Bush got elected.

[Iverson]

144. not hard to understand

Dogmatic assertions are easy to deconstruct. They don't make for much of an argument, though.

"PERIOD. END OF STORY."

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dad]

125. Ralph Nader is like a saint coming down to earth and live amongst us

and may anyone who says otherwise be struck by a bolt of lightning!

[deutsey]

10. Well, Nader is an expert on not being able to deliver...

:evilfrown:

[Terwilliger]

86. he had a tough battle

fighting a frightened left that didn't have much faith in their milquetoast DLC "centrist"

[ShaneGR]

134. He had an easy battle

Lying about Gore and Bush being the same, which EVERYONE (EXCEPT U), now knows is complete CRAP. Nader gave interviews saying his goal was to destroy the Democratic Party, so Greens could somehow take over as the new 'main opposition party'. Meaning, he was so sick about his delusional goal, he actually fooled you all into believing that was a possibility. It was great rhetoric, and he sure did make himself famous.

You're the best Ralph!

[tedoll78]

11. Ah..

The accomplice speaks. How quaint.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. And Ralph can't deliver either because he doesn't stand a snowball's

chance in hell of getting elected. The only thing HE can deliver is 4 more years of Bush by dividing the MOMENTUM liberals and progressives could have in numbers.

I will take all the flaming one gets awarded for standing by that statement now.

[sendero]

16. here's...

... an anti-flame coupon, good for insulating your ass against 1 upcoming flame.


And while I'm here, Ralph, please stick your head up your ass and jump.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. and Dean is only a slightly bigger snowball

jsut a little bit more removed from Hades.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. I'm not convinced that you are incorrect

I just think Nader has no credibility on this issue NOT FOR BEING INCORRECT but for the fact that he cannot deliver either.

[Terwilliger]

89. uhhhh

is that the same MOMENTUM killing that Kerry, Dean, Lieberman, etc. are doing?

Who knows...maybe the Democrats will be bold enough to embrace true left issues this time...or do you think Braun, Kucinich, and Sharpton should get out now?

[Khephra]

13. Lets see...Nader and Zell Miller both dislike Dean?

I guess I picked the right candidate then.

:evilgrin:

[Rowdyboy]

30. LOL

You may be onto something, Keph

[zanana]

113. I also think you may be onto something, Keph.

I just don't trust Nader. If Bush's poll numbers take even more of a nosedive and Nader decides to run for president, we'll know that something's up.

[Cha]

71. And you like Dean! I'm sure

I've picked the right candidate, then! }(

[Rowdyboy]

97. Actually, Dean is my second choice...

So why be hateful to someone you may be working with soon?

[Terwilliger]

87. yes

because Dean is so questionable

I mean, please...look at all the flip-flopping he does! He panders, he pivots, he says things people want to hear.

I think the Repukes like him because they think he's a sure-fire loser. Nader doesn't like him for the same reason.

[Hep]

17. I don't give a guy who won 3% a lot of weight

in this discussion.

[Monte Carlo]

20. Why not? They appealed to the same crowd.

And I have a horrible suspicion that Dean's popular support will fizzle out in the end just like Nader's did.

[poskonig]

23. Dean has been pronounced dead by opponents

over and over and over again since the beginning of his campaign. Given the recent unions Dean picked up, his victory is inevitable.

[Monte Carlo]

27. It's his inability to counter Bush that scares me.

He talks big about the problems of Bush, but he has not demonstrated to me that he is able to counter someone who sticks to his lines through the worst. It's hard to debate someone that won't debate.

[Hep]

31. Dean will be fine

rest easy.

[Monte Carlo]

35. I'd like to, but Bush will not debate Dean on his terms...

... unless he is absolutely forced. Bush will not be a push-over for Dean or any other Dem candidate.

[Hep]

49. You could be right

Four debates have been annouced. Let Bush evade them, we can exploit that. Bush will not be a pushover, but I'm optimistic that ANY D who can win the nomination can beat him. It really won't be too hard. Bush is going to go over the top. I think people are going to see through it.

[Monte Carlo]

91. Bush is not afraid to look like a fool onstage.

That may be his strongest defense - everyone knows he's an idiot, we even expect it by now. It's no big deal, y'know what I mean? A Democratic candidate explaining his latest atrocities and brainless fuck-ups seem kind of redundant and not noteworthy.

If Bush is given a question that he can't answer, he'll give a big happy answer to a different question. He will never, ever say he erred or questioned his planning or his intentions, including all the KIA's in Iraq, all the business and financial scandals, all the lost jobs, all of the red ink. 'You aren't seeing the big picture!' He will not deviate from his rehearsed points willingly. All of that will be VERY difficult for the Democratic candidate to counter in even the official debates, never mind through the coming advertising war. You can bet anything that the crap will be flying at the nominee non-stop at every angle. The nominee will not only be the candidate against Bush, but he'll also be the No. 1 Democrat in the land. It's going to be VERY difficult to fight off, and score a few points of his own.

Clinton could do that because he was a really smart, clear, and charasmatic speaker. He could transcend all that mess. To beat the mess again, I believe dearly that we will need a comparable speaker. I belive Kerry is the best equipped for the role. I have absolutely nothing against Dean, but I'm not confident he has the necessary ability. Bush is fighting a defensive war - he must be beaten utterly for us to win.

[poskonig]

43. Bush Junior isn't all that.

If you believe the hypothesis that Dean is a bad campaigner, look at Bush's awful 2000 campaign against Gore. It makes Dean look like a miracle worker. Publically however we'd rather keep the lowered expectations on Dean, and talk up Shrub.

[Monte Carlo]

45. Candidates not named Bush face a higher standard.

Honestly, I have nothing against Dean, it is ability to handle himself under the spotlight that concerns me. Bush goes on the Tim Russert show and does fine because his name is Bush. Dean goes on and is stumped; now, I have my questions about Russert's equal application of toughness, but regardless, that looks really bad.

[bearfartinthewoods]

111. can you tell me which candidate these unions endorsed in the last

couple cycles? skipping clinton 2 of course.

[Hep]

28. We'll have to wait and see.

Nader's support didn't fizzle out. He never had more support than that. If anything, people left Nader because he was such a gigantic hypocrite. Remember the Nader Raider defection?

Nader appeals to misguided people and people who want to destroy the D party.

[poskonig]

21. Dean's 2004 grassroots effort

has been far more successful than Nader's 2000 bid.

I voted for Nader in 2000, but the thought of more idiotic wars, Tom Delay making several SC appointments, and transferring the tax burden from wealth to labor, among other things, is a possible future I'd rather not see.

[Speck Tater]

26. "President Dean"

Get used to hearing it. Get used to saying it. It is inevitable.

[slinkerwink]

52. how come you're not on the dean blog anymore?

we miss you there...

[PopSixSquish]

22. Hey Ralph

I don't have the problem with you re 2000 that some do since I think it was a combination of things which led to Bush - none of which are mutally exclusive. However, please do us all a favor and STFU!

[thebaghwan]

24. Please Ralph, just go away and shut the F**K UP!!!

Really tired of this devisiveness particularly from this A.H.

[Rowdyboy]

25. I was pissed by his condescending attitude to Dean supporters...

His quote about Dean: "Everybody is starved. If you have a garden and it rains, you're not excited, but if you're in a desert and it rains, you're delirious. But you know what rain in the desert produces? A mirage".

He sees himself as some sort of freaking savior when he's basically a anti-corporate crusader with an enormous ego.

[xxqqqzme]

46. I've had more gardens

than Ralphie AND I've had one or two on the desert. Everytime it rained, on ANY of my gardens, I was Xcited.

Get your hands dirty U freakin suit! and a new metaphor.

[sendero]

74. and Ralph makes it rain...

... you notice a warm trickle running down your leg.

Sorry, Ralph, you simply burned all your credibility. Talk to the hand.

[dad]

126. -

and I was pissed about Dean's condescending attitude towards Southerners.

[nomaco-10]

33. Oooooh, the Green God speaks......

with his usual banter that is out of touch with the mainstream voter in this country. Somebody needs to tell him that the new democrat is sophisticated enough to know the difference between DLC politics as usual and the real deal. Ralph needs to join his place in footnote history with the likes of Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan and Al Sharpton in political historical irrelevancy.
Somebody tell Ralph that there's a little controversy going on called the Iraqi War and it's real fucking hard to grow a tree in a desert.

[Iverson]

73. error of fact

Nader is not a member of the Green Party. Now carry on foaming.

[nomaco-10]

79. You never come out .....

on this board unless somebody mentions Green or Nader. There are issues discussed here everyday of the most urgent kind regarding the state of our country. Real input and dialog are needed from any and all individuals with something to offer. This country is so past the Green/Democrat debate, please come join us and try to rise above the rhetoric.

[Forkboy]

100. you mean like this?

This country is so past the Green/Democrat debate, please come join us and try to rise above the rhetoric.

Somebody tell Ralph that there's a little controversy going on called the Iraqi War and it's real fucking hard to grow a tree in a desert.

[Iverson]

110. wrong

n/t

[Terwilliger]

90. Democrats like Zell Miller!

Oh, Zell's in touch....right?

[Woodstock]

38. Go to hell, Nader

and that is as nice as I can get what I really want to say to you.

[MadHound]

39. Well, if Nader gets in the White House, he could deliver more than Dean

Or have all of you forgotten all the brands put on Dean's butt buy his corporate masters. The game's the same no matter who you are. Take the corporations' money, you dance the coporate tune. Don't take the corporate money(like Nader, Kucinich and the Greens), you are only answerable to the ones you are supposed to answer to, we the people.

But if Dean's(and other coporate whores) supporters wish to continue to deny this reality of modern politics then they will be in for a nasty suprise if he gets the nod. Of course they will deny this will happen, even while it goes on right under their nose. Just look at all of the Clinton sycophants around here, lauding him as the greatest thing since slice bread, while in reality all he was was a corporate whore with better makeup and a sexier pick-up line.

Damn, when will people wake up?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Who got those corporations to view the entire POPULATION as consumers

...That's right...Ralph Nader.

And BTW...he can't deliver because he CAN'T get elected and it is VERY easy to defend your record politically when you don't have one.

[MadHound]

51. *Bzzt* Wrong answer pal!

That would be Adam Smith, Malthus, et al. But gee, just ignore that historical fact there eh? How convienent.

Your blind hatred of Ralph would be vastly amusing if it just wasn't so damn pathetic. What's next, blaming Ralph for the recent CA fires or something equally ridiculous?

Give it a break, back off, put it out of your brain, otherwise I fear you're going to have a stroke or blow some gasket.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Your blind worship of him could do the same

Nader had a HUGE effect on putting the word CONSUMER in the consumer's head....it was his raison d'etre before killing off the Democratic party became his new obsession.

As far as the rest of your ad hominem post..pfffffft.

[Terwilliger]

93. hmmm....so neoliberals don't like consumers anymore?

is this why the "center" has so much problem in trusting the Democrats?

[Hep]

57. You and I have probably been through this before

but I don't hate Nader. I resent him. I believe that he intended to destroy the D party and rebuild it. And it's based on things HE said. I'm open to changing my mind if you want to refute what I have. I'm not married to it.

I know Nader is not the sole responsibility in the 2000 debacle, but I do think he played a role, and I think I have some good reasoning behind it.

[realFedUp]

47. You have a list of Dean's corporate owners?

Vermont Cheese Barrel?

[MadHound]

56. No, not personally, but just go check Dean's donation list

I'm sure you will find all of your answers there. And yes, he is taking corporate lucre, the only Dem who isn't is Kucinich. And as I said before, you take the corporate cash, you have to dance the corporate tune. Or haven't you been paying attention to American politics for the past twenty five years?

[Rowdyboy]

59. Why bother with proof?

He's obviously guilty, he's been accused! He's a witch! Burn him, burn him!

[Hep]

61. Forgive me

I don't want to make an issue of this, but you don't have it personally, and you tell us to go look at Dean's donor page. It makes it sound like YOU haven't checked Dean's donor page. If you had, you'd probably bookmark it and happily provide it when asked this question.

The donor page I saw is pretty inconclusive. It reflects the EMPLOYER of donors but does not indicate a very significant amount of PAC contributions. I don't think I've adequately figured out the information and how it is provided. If you want to clear it up for me, that would be fine.

[MercutioATC]

106. Ahhh...gotcha! Edwards is the only candidate not taking ANY corporate $$

The rest have all taken at least some business PAC money.

[MadHound]

147. Sorry to burst your bubble there pal

But Edwards IS taking corporate money.

The ONLY Democratic contender untainted by corporate cash is Kucinich.

<http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/fieldkucinich_feature.html>

But thanks for playing our game, we'll have some lovely parting gifts for you later.

[Hep]

50. He could deliver nothing

but press releases.

The G party doesn't have enough CANDIDATES to have any comfort in a congress that I think will go deeper R.

[Arugula Latte]

53. Please explain

how Dennis or Ralph is going to get elected. Hey, I like a lot of what they both have to say, and Ralph has surely done more for this country in the past than almost anybody, but, talk about denying political reality. Political idealism is great, except when it comes to actually electing someone to carry out your idealism...I'll be waiting to hear what the grand plan is to get either one of those guys into the White House. (Ralph didn't even get his 5 percent last time; and yes, I know he should have been allowed to debate, but, how would he have picked up another 45 or so percent of the vote to get into the White House?)

[MadHound]

63. Ah, a pragmatist, a person who is willing to "settle"

That's the ticket, let's not vote for those who would do the best for our courntry, but let's settle for a candidate who all the "experts" say will win. That's what we've been doing for the past thirty plus years, and look what it got us. A Democrat, A DEMOCRAT for Christ's sake who ripped out the social safety net, sold his base down the river for corporate "soft money", who screwed the unions and the people he was supposed to represent with that abomination known as NAFTA. Don't give me anymore of your settling Dems, I've washed my hands of them. I want a real change in this country, not just somebody who is going to go slowly over the cliff rather that quickly.

And for you, oh so impatient one, the Grand Plan is called party building. No, the Greens won't win the Presidentcy in '04. But as more and more Dems start to wake up, as that great mass of mostly liberal voters who are not voting out of disgust see a real alternative to the same ol' same ol', the Greens could very well be in the White House in the next decade.

[Hep]

65. Ur

And for you, oh so impatient one, the Grand Plan is called party building. No, the Greens won't win the Presidentcy in '04. But as more and more Dems start to wake up, as that great mass of mostly liberal voters who are not voting out of disgust see a real alternative to the same ol' same ol', the Greens could very well be in the White House in the next decade.

No you won't win the presidency in 04, so why try? Greens need more people like Gonzales in Sanf Francisco. THAT'S how you'll do it. But Nader runs and he will be the only green most people know, despite greens running in their home town.

[MadHound]

148. Ur is an ancient kindom is the Middle East

But I digress.

No, we won't win in 04. But gee, have you thought of the matching funds for the future? Howz about public exposure, getting our ideas in the public discourse. How about exposing both parties for the controling hypocritical asses that they are, or have you forgotten the '00 Presidential debates? What, afraid of a little uncorrupted competition?

You Green bashers crack me up, truly. You claim we have so little influence, yet somehow we managed to throw the '00 election in FL(forget the Supreme Court, forget the 'Pug shinanigans, forget the Gore campaigns' ineptitude, no in must have been the Greens). You say we need to run in local races, yet condemn us when we do just that, saying we need more national exposure. And yet condemn us when we run for national office and thus garnering that national exposure.

Tell you what, let us Greens worry about our party and how to run it. You folks have plenty on your plate with that capsizing ship known as the Democratic Party.

[poskonig]

96. President Gore = war in Iraq, Tom Delay's judges, and the Bush tax cuts??

Please.

[Zuni]

115. Most of Dean's cash,

in fact almost all of it, comes from small donors, Liberal PACs and Unions.

Dean is not some kind of Ultraconservative plant.

[ErasureAcer]

58. Hahaha....looks like Kucinich is the only one Nader backs

Dean blows.

[mmonk]

62. Nader wants to be relevant in this election

but his running will only hurt the chance to remove Bush and we can't afford that. Nader is Vader for the empire.

[paulk]

64. the most interesting part of the article

is the discussion within the Green party. Nader, if he runs, may end up doing it as a candidate of some other party than the Greens.

I know some Green party activists locally, and had heard some of this stuff already. There are some huge divides - people that don't want the Greens to run a presidential candidate, some for Nader, and some who want to run another candidate altogether.

[xultar]

66. Ditto...Nader shut your Piehole and get with the party...

We'll work out the details later but you gotta get with us or get out and stay out. We are in the fight for our lives here! Thanks to the Greenies who are focused on the real fight here. It could be worth cabinet positions I'm sure. But we (DEMS) gotta win for you to play.

[ulysses]

67. he's right, actually.

I back Dean, but I don't expect him to be able to do much, even if he wants to, in even two terms considering the corporate hold on government. I'll take a lot less, for now. For now.

[Padraig18]

72. When I want Ralph's opinion, I'll beat it out of him. n/t

[ulysses]

75. because we can't have unsolicited opinions, of course

C'mon, Padraig.

edit to correct spelling

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

95. typical conservative reaction...LETS DO VIOLENCE!

:nuke:

Grab your second amendment, and make Nader pay!!! :nuke:

[Padraig18]

117. Is it typical of conservatives?

I wouldn't know, since I'm not one...

[Iverson]

128. It is typical of the far right.

Anyone who pays attention knows that political violence is the province of extremists, and the far right seems to specialize in it, in my lifetime anyway. This is not a matter to be dismissed with a glib comment.

Central and South American death squads, often referred to in the sanitized press as "paramilitaries," are poignant examples of right-wing organized violence. I also recommend that you do some research on Chile's "dirty war." One need not have been an element of it in order to know about it or learn about it. By the way, our own CIA and SOA have very dirty hands in these examples.

Closer to home, there is the obvious example of right-wing extremists who kill doctors. Matthew Shepherd is a name with which you should familiarize yourself as another example of nearby violence that stems from a right-wing aesthetic. In Canada about 15 years ago, there was the mass murder of women at a college by the fellow who blamed "feminists" for his troubles.

So maybe instead of blithely ignoring the objections to your initial post that lightly advocated political violence, you should examine the serious roots to which it is attached. Having a Green target does not make it all right.

If the point is too abstract, substitute a Democratic politician who you admire, and then figure out whether or not you still like that model of political discourse.

It is kind of embarrassing even to have to point this out.

[Padraig18]

142. "...lightly advocated political violence...."?

:wtf: It's just a humorous expression, one that most people with a sense of humor understand as such. I believe that Skinner explained that to you already. :eyes:

[Iverson]

146. incorrect

Skinner explained why my original reply was deleted. He did not advocate for what you are now calling humor.

If it is so damned funny, then do as I suggested and substitute the candidate of your preference. Most people with a sense of humor do not jest about violence to political rivals.

[Padraig18]

152. Incorrect.

I made a very pedestrian, flippant and humorous/irreverent comment about Ralph Nader; my comment no more suggests violence against Mr. Nader than do the "Fuck Ralph Nader" comments suggest that he be raped.

I am puzzled by your continuing fascination with my comment, while you ignore all other of a similar genre. :shrug:

[Iverson]

154. incorrect

I am not so much fascinated by your comment as weary.

A failure on my part to address each instance of misguided ugliness in no way affects the validity of my point.

For the third time, substitute the candidate of your preference and then see if "beat it out of him" is so goddamned funny. That you have not yet done so suggests not an inability but rather an unwillingness to see.

Have a bipartisan day.

[Padraig18]

155. Incorrect.

It was, is, and will remain an irreverent, completly mundane toss-away response, you efforts to change it into something altogether different nonwithstanding.

Have a nice day.

[Silverhair]

150. Extremists on BOTH sides, not just RWs.

There are lots of examples of extremists on both sides that were pretty violent. The Weathermen, SDS, Red Army Faction, etc. That's why I dislike extremist of either side. The left extremists hurt us far far more than they help us.

[Iverson]

151. of course both sides have violent extremists

Even if we argue, though, that violence by left-wing extremists is equal in scope to violence by right-wing extremists, that still does not make it a good idea to jest that we will "beat it out of" political figures.

That's my point that seems to be getting lost.

[Padraig18]

153. The point that's getting lost is...

... that no one, most particularly me, ever suggested political violence against Mr. Nader; my comment was entirely ordinary, flippant, humorous and irreverent, and nothing more. 'Reaching', or attempting to insert/'read into it' something which is plainly not there does nothing to validate your incorrect assumption about the comment. :eyes:

[kodi]

78. if julius casear had known nader had that much gall he'd have invaded him

.

[Larkspur]

80. Nader is jealous of Dean's grassroots success

I have confidence that Dean has a plan to tackle the Repuke control of Congress. He may get the senate in our hands in 2004, but by 2006, he could be leading a Dem charge to retake governorships and the House.

[Gman]

82. Dean's "grassroots success" is an urban legend

If it was true the outcomes in the elections Tuesday would have been a lot different.

[Larkspur]

88. Gee, 54% of Dean's campaign cash comes from donations < $200

and he's the #1 money maker in the Dem Prez field. He's got grassroots.

[MercutioATC]

107. What? That makes NO sense.

With over $25M raised and an average contribution of under 80 bucks, Dean most definitely has a grassroots organization.

[Gman]

81. For the first time since 2000, I agree with Nader

McGovern on steroids... describes Dean perfectly.

[Ardee]

83. An exercise in futility

I held my breath and read all the sophomoric and stupidly childish venting of adolescent immaturity and lack of factual content that is Nader bashing. I hope he doesnt run this time out just so you children will all look at each other with bewildered expressions and wonder who to blame for your abysmal defeat this time.

[slinkerwink]

92. Nader needs to shut up.

I am so disgusted with the man for drawing votes away from Gore in 2000, and partly thanks to him, we're stuck with Bush the lush.....

[mot78]

99. If Nader and the Greens want to reenergize the left

then they should take over the Democratic Party from the inside, just like the rw did after Goldwater lost. If only the Greens would do something like build up think tanks and media, then we'd be more disciplined and we'd crush Limbaugh and Hannity. Otherwise Nader should shut the hell up.

[quaker bill]

101. Resistance is Futile

and Nader is irrelevant. Ask any Green, his votes in 2000 did not matter. Thus he is precisely irrelevant.

The man has a right to his opinions. But the trees that gave their lives for paper to print them were more useful.

[eileen_d]

102. Ah Nader... maybe you and Perot can get something going

in 2004. Wouldn't that be a trip? :crazy:

Check out this quote from Robert McChesney ("co-editor of Monthly Review, member of Nader's Citizen Works' Corporate Reform Commission, president of the professors' council of the US Campus Greens since 2001 and a leading media democracy activist"):

"Running a presidential candidate in 2004 for the Greens is probably a quantum leap off a cliff. It is the Greens' Jonestown."

As E.T. would say... OUCH.

[usregimechange]

108. That is sad just sad

[sleipnir]

109. FUCK NADER

He's got blood on his hands now from 9-11, Afganistan, Iraq. He deserves a long burn in Hell (if it exists) for getting Bush elected. He has lost all respect in my book..

[CWebster]

114. Public citizen #1

Nader has done more for this country than any other man of his time. What is new about a true patriot that hasn't been crucified by those who own the mouthpiece of power?

I know who Ralph Nader is, I grew up in a different time, when the things he championed were respected goals of hope. In an increasingly corporate dominated culture is it any wonder that he has become the outcast?

I know who Nader is, I have heard him speak in front of a small group of people when he was relaxed and at ease. I will never forget when one woman spoke..."I want to thank you for all you have done for us".

Nader is a great man who will not be recognised in his own time--like all those before him.

[John_H]

122. Congrats!!!!!

You've written the dumbest, most guileless post I've ever read!

[DerekG]

127. Indulge me, Johnny...

How was Webster's post "dumb"? Nader's efforts have saved many lives over the years.

[jonnyblitz]

143. Nader to DEMS is like Hillary to Republicans.

all of it silly.

[cryofan]

116. Nader will run in 2004 unless Kooch is nominated

We all know this already, right? Nader has said so, and it was his plan all along. That is why he campaigned heavily in swing states in 2000--so he could draw votes away from Gore there and give Bush the win. We all know this, right? This has already been discussed here before.
<p>

So the 2000 race was a setup for the 2004 campaign so that Nader could force the Dems to give a real Democrat the 2004 nomination. Nader has already said that he will not run in 2004 if Kucinich is nominated. So that is how it will go down: either Kucinich is nominated or Nader runs in 2004 and gives Bush the election win by drawing votes away from Dean in swing states.

<

[Padraig18]

129. Yep.

"Select the candidate *I* tell you to, or I'll run." Sums it up pretty well...

[cryofan]

132. The name for it is "POLITICS"

"Tough titty" said the kitty...


Time for the Dems to shit or get off the pot....

[Padraig18]

136. You're entitled to your opinion, of course.

:shrug:

[snoochie]

139. You put it rather bluntly, but I must say I agree.

The populist movement forced the Democrats to change way back when, and now the Green movement in doing the same thing.

[Zynx]

118. Go to hell Nader.

Go directly to hell and burn forever you piece of sh!t. I really hate this guy with every fiber of my being. I don't even agree with him on most things considering that I am a somewhat moderate Democrat. The whole Green party can shove it. They cost us 2000.

[Iverson]

119. Well, that was analytical.

Have a bipartisan day.

[ShaneGR]

140. See my post to you above

Nader is a complete loser.

[dansolo]

120. Ralph shouldn't be comparing Dean to McGovern

Isn't Ralph besmirching McGovern by emphasizing his presidential election loss? McGovern represented the ideals that the Greens now claim they stand for. But Nader is treating the name of McGovern in the same way that the Republicans use the word "liberal", as an epithet.

[Padraig18]

131. Surely St. Ralph would never do such a despicable thing? n/t

[Forkboy]

149. Why not? Other DUers have.

[fujiyama]

141. I don't even understand Nader's criticism

He literally makes no sense. So Dean's McGovern then eh? Well McGovern, though he ran a bad campaign, was an honorable man, serving admirably in WWII, and as a dedicated public servant.

So the DLC and Nader do have a lot in common. They both have absolutely no clue how to run a campaign and both Nader and those at the top of the DLC have profitted greatly off Bush's war, and tax cuts. These two groups are wealthy, arrogant, and have extremely bloated egos. Both groups have little, if any broad, populist support and have solutions that are unworkable and/ or unrealistic.

But then again, Nader really doesn't even strike me as progressive or liberal and if I were the democratic presidential candidate I'd attack him as much as Bush. After all, Nader's good buddy is Grover Norquist for God's sakes. Those who enjoy the company of such scum are no better themselves. He also never did dispute or even oppose money given by right wing groups in the last election to his campaig in '00. He has no credibility and absolutely no power or influence within the liberal and progressive community.

[John_H]

121. Run Ralphie Run!!!!!!

C'mon folks, we want Wal-mart Ralph to Run, and take the green party down with him when he gets less than one percent of the vote.

We get to hit him hard and loud--about his Merk, Walmart, and Viacom profiteering, his union busting, his secrecy about his finaces, and his other ninnyism and buffoonery.

[Ellen Forradalom]

123. I YI YI YI

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

124. Nader can go to hell!

If he runs, he's a fucking fascist! If he runs, he will verify that he doesn't give a RATS ASS about this country. If he runs, he will prove that he has the worlds biggest ego! If he runs, our country is finished!

[w4rma]

137. Dean nomination would seriously hamper [Nader's] ability to gain traction

…
With a combination of irritation and amusement, Nader has watched Howard Dean adopt the style, if not the substance, of his 2000 campaign, no doubt aware that a Dean nomination would seriously hamper his ability to gain traction next spring and summer. While he recognizes that many Dean supporters may well have been Naderites in 2000
…
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20031124&s=sifry

For some time now, Nader has made it perfectly clear that his campaign isn't about trying to pull the Democrats back to the left. Rather, his strategy is the Leninist one of “heightening the contradictions”. It's not just that Nader is willing to take a chance of being personally responsible for electing Bush. It's that he's actively trying to elect Bush because he thinks that social conditions in American need to get worse before they can better.

Nader often makes this “the worse, the better” point on the stump in relation to Republicans and the environment. He says that the Reagan-era interior secretary James Watt was useful because he was a “provocateur” for change, noting that Watt spurred a massive boost in the Sierra Club's membership. More recently, Nader applied the same logic to Bush himself. Here's the Los Angeles Times' account of a speech Nader gave at Chapman University in Orange, California, last week: “After lambasting Gore as part of a do-nothing Clinton administration, Nader said, 'If it were a choice between a provocateur and an anaesthetiser, I'd rather have a provocateur. It would mobilise us.'”

Lest this remark be considered an aberration, Nader has said similar things before. “When {the Democrats} lose, they say it's because they are not appealing to the Republican voters,” Nader told an audience in Madison, Wisconsin, a few months ago, according to a story in the Nation. “We want them to say they lost because a progressive movement took away votes.”

That might make it sound like Nader's goal is to defeat Gore in order to shift the Democratic party to the left. But in a more recent interview with David Moberg in the socialist paper In These Times, Nader made it clear that his real mission is to destroy and then replace the Democratic party altogether. According to Moberg, Nader talked “about leading the Greens into a 'death struggle' with the Democratic party to determine which will be the majority party”. Nader further and shockingly explained that he hopes in the future to run Green party candidates around the country, including against such progressive Democrats as Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, Senator Russell Feingold of Wisconsin, and Representative Henry Waxman of California. “I hate to use military analogies,” Nader said, “but this is war on the two parties.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,393674,00.html

Last Thursday morning CNN showed Nader voters ecstatic and unapologetic about their part in the election mess. “I'm a part of history,” burbled one woman.

Along with that woman CNN showed another Naderite who shrugged off the prospect of a Bush presidency with the following: “I believe things have to get worse before they get better.”

That seems to me to adequately sum up the belief of Ellen Willis who, in a Salon piece supporting Nader last week, wrote: “More and more I am coming to the conviction that Roe vs. Wade, in the guise of a great victory, has been in some respects a disaster for feminism. We might be better off today if it had never happened, and we had had to continue a state-by-state political fight. Roe vs. Wade resulted in a lot of women declaring victory and going home.”
http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/11/15/nader/

When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: “Bush.”
“If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win.” - Nader
http://www.outsidemag.com/magazine/200008/200008camp_nader1.html

The only prominent Democrat who Nader seems to believe offers the party any chance for redemption is Russ Feingold, the maverick senator from Wisconsin who cast a lonely vote against the Bush Administration's antiterrorism legislation. Feingold is a rare Democrat who consistently says things like, “Ralph Nader is talking about issues Democrats should be talking about.” But the mutual admiration goes only so far. Nader rejects the idea of backing a Feingold run for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination. “I'll say a lot of good things about him, but we're not trying to build the same party,” he says.

Nader admits he experiences “lots” of frustration with the Greens. He warns that the party is not running enough candidates to achieve critical mass at election time, and he says it must do so--even where that means challenging relatively liberal Democrats.

Does Nader worry, even just a little bit, that another candidacy might divide progressives and produce another Bush presidency? “Look, I'd rather be engaged in the nonpartisan work of building a civil society. For me, there has been a gradual commitment to getting involved in the electoral process, and I still cling to this civic, nonpartisan vision of how to do things,” Nader says. “But if you do an acute analysis of why things don't change in this country, you come back to what has happened to the Democratic Party. When I look at how the Democrats have responded to Enron so far, it seems to me that we all have a responsibility to try to jolt them into an understanding of what is at stake. If Democrats respond effectively, there will not be much point to me or anyone else challenging them. But if they do not, something has to give. People realize that. People know what the Enron scandal means. This is a test. Are Democrats capable of addressing massive corporate crimes effectively? If Democrats cannot, if they are in such a routinized rut that they are incapable of responding, then how could anyone make a case that they should be given deference at the ballot box?”
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020225&s=nichols

Regarding Senators Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Paul Wellstone (D-MN), Nader said that he is willing to sacrifice them because “that's the price they're going to have to bear for letting their party go astray.”
In an interview with In the Times, 10-30-2000

In a recent Time magazine interview, when asked if he felt any regret about the 2000 election, Nader responded, “No, because it could have been worse. You could have had a Republican Congress with Gore and Lieberman.” -- Time magazine, 8-05-02

“Let's see what really happens. Ashcroft is going to be a prisoner of bureaucracy.” -- Common Dreams 4-03-2001

“I'm just amazed that people think I should be concerned about this stuff. It's absolutely amazing. Not a minute's sleep do I lose, about something like this - because I feel sorry for them. It's just so foolish, the way they have been behaving. Why should I worry?” -- Common Dreams 4-03-2001
http://www.damnedbigdifference.org/quotes

Contrast his statements above with some information on the two pre-Nazi Germany liberal parties:
In 1930 the parliamentary coalition that governed Germany fell apart, and new elections were held. The biggest winner in these elections was Adolf Hitler's National Socialist Party. From twelve seats in parliament they increased their seats to 107, becoming Germany's second largest political party. The largest party was still the Social Democrats, and this party won 143 seats and 24.5 percent of the vote. Communist Party candidates won 13.1 percent of the vote (roughly 50 times better than the U.S. Communist Party did in the 1932 elections), and together the Social Democrats and the Communists were large enough to claim the right to make a government. But Communists and the Social Democrats remained hostile toward one another. The Comintern at this time was opposed to Communists working with reformers, and the Communists believed that a collapse of parliamentary government would hasten the revolutionary crisis that would propel them to power.
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch16.htm

[quaker bill]

145. Nader was not going to get any traction anyway.

The man is irrelevant. His run for president was a disservice to the Green Party, the environment, and all the social causes supported by Green Party members.

[Presidentcokedupfratboy]

138. Nader better not run

He gave us the Dimson in the White House.