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A few thoughts about confederate flag waving southerners, Dems, and Dean

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:15 PM
Original message
A few thoughts about confederate flag waving southerners, Dems, and Dean



Dean says he wants the southern guys with the confederate flag decal in their pick up truck window to vote for him. Dean says he want to reach out to these folks who have been voting republican against their own best interests for 30 years. Dean says he wants to give these folks not only a reason to come back into this party, but a chance to choose hope over hate.

Some say that these people are just racists and Dean is pandering to racists, and they try to attack Dean as if he was endorsing racism or validating bigotry. Some say he'll never get the votes from these people anyway, so he should just give up and alienate them like dems have done for the last several years... the last several LOSING years.

A real leader, and real person of honor and vision would look to the future and instead of giving up on these people and writing them off and continuing to deepen the divide between us and them. A real leader… a real democrat would instead reach out to them and give them a reason to move beyond the racial divisions... to show them that there is room in this tent for everybody, and to give them a chance and a reason to discover they can be better.

If we want to turn these people to the light... we have to reach out to them, to appeal to the very best in their nature rather than the worst as the republicans do. We have to let them know that they can come back and they are wanted and we have to show them that they can do more for themselves and their kids and their grandkids by voting dem than they ever could by voting for republicans out of anger, bigotry and fear.

And maybe, just maybe, 10 years from now or 20 or 50, these people who you want to write off and throw out like trash, will have well educated kids and healthcare and better jobs because they took a chance and voted dem and put a man in office who brought them together based on hope instead of driving them apart based on race.

Someone has to reach out and give them hope that is stronger than the hate... not just hate them back and drive them to vote republican.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of folks on our side are just as bigoted and hateful towards them as they are towards us. And when someone tries to reach out across the divide, they get nothing but shit from the bigots on our side. The response Dean got from our side when he tried to reach out to southern white conservatives, was just about the same as a southern politician being called a ni**er lover for reaching out to the black community and it makes me sick to see it.

We are better than this… and damnit if we can’t live up to our own supposedly progressive big tent philosophy, we don’t deserve to win in November because we’re just as bad as the worst of them.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Like isn't this whole flag thing over?
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. we've had at least five threads about this.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The flag thing never was....
Edited on Fri Nov-07-03 10:25 PM by TLM


but the issues behind it, that the flag flap was raised to eclipse, like reaching out to southern white working class folks who have been voting republican, are far from over.

The issue of undermining the republican southern strategy is far from over.

The issue of reaching out to those who do not agree with us and giving them a reason to vote dem is far from over.


These are important issues that were, conveniently for some, lost in the fuss about the dreaded confederate flag phrase.
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I agree
Feel free to post suggestions in the thread about Democratic Souther strategy - people of good will need to keep pushing the dialog, not the demogogory
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. I think Dean is on the right track...


You need to find issues that are strong in two areas. They have to be issues that are going to help everybody, and that are important enough to outweigh the racial divisiveness... or animosity towards the dems in general.

Issues like jobs and healthcare.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well said
"Someone has to reach out and give them hope that is stronger than the hate... not just hate them back and drive them to vote republican."

I agree fully. I have discussed this with several local politicians, and those who I respect most have said the exact same thing. The reason words like "liberal elitist" stick are because of the bigotted reactions you mentioned.
I really think that what our Democrats did by using racism as their political tool was a racist move in it's essence. When it is used as a tool or toy to play with people's opinions, AFTER someone proposed we put a stop to it I see no difference between it and the Puke race baiting.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great Post TLM!
:thumbsup:
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shepard Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Discussions About the Flag
are never ending.They just keep going and going.Ahe'ee Nehemah
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. What BS spin. Dean was pandering plain and simple. Deal with it
and stop trying to spin us. We know the truth and you aren't going to sway anyone here.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Wouldn't he have had to approve of the "racists" to pander to them?
He clearly stated that he finds the Confererate flag to be a racially divisive symbol. He also stated that we need southern whites to vote Democratic again. Which of these statements are "pandering"? Which do you disagree with?
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. More spin from a Dean supporter. What a surprise!
The Dean supporters are in a full tilt mutual support mode on this issue. You guys are scared shitless and can't face the truth. That is why you can't stop posting on this subject.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I see you did not answer the simple question.


How was what Dean said pandering?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm willing to talk about the "issue"...seems YOU just want to spin.
I asked a question and you, as expected, refused to answer. You made the "spin" claim. Why are you so afraid to answer questions about it?
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. the premise of your question is faulty
I refuse to answer a question that is slanted as badly as yours.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. So "enlighten" me. What's so slanted about my statement?
And why are you so reluctant to comment?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. How was it pandering? You've shown you can make an accusation.


Yet can you explain exactly how it is pandering to tell working class soutehrn white folks who have been voting republican against their best interests, that they should vote Dem?

How is it pandering to reach out to folks and give them a reason to put aside racial differences and work together for their shared goals?

What exactly is your definition of pandering?
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. OK, here is the case that Dean was pandering
I'm sure few Dean supporters will be able to handle the truth, I'm about to present. Don't even try to catch this one, I'm going to hit it out of the park.

I'm sure the Dean team performed lots of research and focus groups to help them construct their message for southern whites. In constructing this message the 'centerpiece phrase' became the phrase "I want to be the leader of the guys with Confederate flags on their bumpers." And the logic behind the use of this 'centerpiece phrase' was that the Confederate flag links the most southern whites together behind a single issue. It is the most powerful and emotional issue in the south.

So the 'centerpiece phrase' became the hook for Dean to connect with southern whites. Dean knew and hoped it would lead southern whites to believe he supported the Confederate Flag issue. Just like Bush used Saddam and 9/11 together to make people believe Saddam was behind 9/11, Dean was using the 'centerpiece phrase' to lead southern whites to believe he supported the Confederate flag, without saying as much.

The fact that Dean doesn't support the Confederate flag issue, but concocted a scheme that would lead southern whites to believe he did, shows he was pandering. Plus by disregarding the racist symbolism of the Confederate flag, because his message was directed at southern whites adds to the case.

Now Dean has exposed himself as an unprincipled man, who will say anything to a given group to win the Dem nomination.





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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. A home run? Dude. you arn't even in the same game.
I'm sure few Dean supporters will be able to handle the truth, I'm about to present. Don't even try to catch this one, I'm going to hit it out of the park.

Indeed, the batters that make such bold boasts tend to strike out when next up at bat. I suspect that there shall be no joy in Clarkvill today, for the mighty SEAburb shall have struck out.

I'm sure the Dean team performed lots of research and focus groups to help them construct their message for southern whites. In constructing this message the 'centerpiece phrase' became the phrase "I want to be the leader of the guys with Confederate flags on their bumpers."

With such a bold claim, one should first do there home work, for Dean has said no such thing. He said that he wants there votes. Your distortion did not go unnoticed. That is strike one.

And the logic behind the use of this 'centerpiece phrase' was that the Confederate flag links the most southern whites together behind a single issue. It is the most powerful and emotional issue in the south.

So the 'centerpiece phrase' became the hook for Dean to connect with southern whites. Dean knew and hoped it would lead southern whites to believe he supported the Confederate Flag issue. Just like Bush used Saddam and 9/11 together to make people believe Saddam was behind 9/11, Dean was using the 'centerpiece phrase' to lead southern whites to believe he supported the Confederate flag, without saying as much.


Dean argues that democrats better serve the interests of poor white southern, by working to help them provide education and health care. And that in serving the interests of the poor, such as by public education and by providing health care, is the means by which we will win there votes.

He also argues that this is a far better strategy to win elections that through passive aggressive strategies such as what Clark is counting on to win the South. Whose entire strategy can be summed us as thus; "I am a model of a major modern military general. I have information of animal, mineral, and vegetable. I have knowledge on all things categorical. Because I am the model of a major modern general."

Dean only made a reference to decal sticker on a 4x4 bumper, in order to press his points above. Any other argument, is a deliberate attempt to take Dean's comments out of context. But while Dean is talking about education and healthcare, it is you, not Dean, who would make the argument Dean's argument is some linked to racism, by that bumper decal. It's a ridiculous argument two weeks ago when it was coined. Today, it is nothing more than a pathetic smear that has lost its power. That would be strike two.

The fact that Dean doesn't support the Confederate flag issue, but concocted a scheme that would lead southern whites to believe he did, shows he was pandering. Plus by disregarding the racist symbolism of the Confederate flag, because his message was directed at southern whites adds to the case.

It would be a sound argument, if it wasn't for the Dean supporters who I am sure have repeatedly tried to correct your distortion. Dean made no overtures to racist, neither real, nor implied. So it is unfair you to try and hang Dean for an "unspoken lie." That would be strike three, and you are out. It is now time for you to go kick sand in the umps face as I am sure you shall not take this well.

Now Dean has exposed himself as an unprincipled man, who will say anything to a given group to win the Dem nomination.

What has been exposed here, is the measure of Clarks "new American patriotism." He only wishes to supplant Bush's standard of loyalty, with his own. Regardless, this new standard is equally rapped in the flag as any thing Bush would offer. And those who do not measure up to Clark's perceived "liberal and progressive standards" need not apply, for the tent has no room for them.

Just as Clark himself, and his campaign, every thing is so steeped in symbolism as to render them meanness. So to is this confederate flag argument founded on graven idols embedded with meanings and powers that the substance doses not warrant. Hatred doses not reside within the confederate flag, any more than the devil resides in the dice. Nor shall you find benevolence and honor dwelling within the Star Spangled Banner. Hatred and racism flows not from cloth, no mater there pattern or color, but in fact flows from the human heart. And it is there that hatred must be fought. While a benevolent spirit may meet friend or foe upon the road, the malevolent one shall only meet enemies no mater where they go.

Your objection comes from the observation that Dean did not spurn racism and those who hold raciest view points. Your anger comes from the fact that Dean has not persecuted the persecutors. As I have said before, Dean made no mention of racism, but in fact focused on economic liberty. As far as this speech is concerned, Dean is ambivalent to the issue, and indeed, the case could be made that Dean's campaign has made little issue of racial issues in general.

One source of racial tension comes from the lack of opportunities. When unemployment is high, the Whites shall charge that the Blacks are taking there jobs away, and the Blacks shall make the same charge of the whites. The Republicans have chosen the strategy of siding with the Whites. Clark has chosen to side with the Blacks. Thus, establishing an us vs them mentality. And as you well know, all those who are not with us, are against us. All you have seen, and all you chose to see, is that Clark has declined to join the Blacks over Whites camp.

But what you do not comprehend, is the fact that Dean has deliberate chosen not to play the opposite of the Republicans race card. While you might argue Dean has not joined the Black over Whites camp, you chose not to see the fact that Dean has also not joined the Whites over Black camp. But such thinking is outside the simple binary political model conceived by the DLC Democrats and Clark, and thus outside the boundaries of comprehension. For many Democrats to under stand this, one may as well try to explain electricity to a bird, or a window to a fly.

And in so doing, Dean now has the power to change the subject. He can not bring us such issues as economic liberty, and begin explaining to the disenfranchised why it is that there fait seems to be sealed by poverty, while there leaders frolic in extreme wealth taken from the public treasury. Dean can now explain that there jobs are now held by slaves in other countries, and how their suns and brothers must go and fight wars to defend the profitability of corporations such as Haliberton.

Dean is hardly the first one to raise this issue. Dr. Martian Luther King Jr. came to this epiphany shortly before he was assassinated. We have all heard his "I have a dream" speech, but few have heard his last speech damming the war in Vietnam. And where racism seems to benefit the Republicans and the Democrats, by splitting the people by the color of there skin. A true understanding of liberty would surly produce the crises of Democracy that both parties would fear, for no longer would the people bow to the King, be he malevolent or benevolent.

I was suspicious that Dean shares in this epiphany. But the attempted damnation of Deans reach to the other side has confirmed it to be beyond the shadow of any doubts. So two have my worst suspicions about the DLC Dems have been confirmed. The DLC dose not wish to help the Black community, and this is made obvious by the ridiculous assaults upon the mention of a bumper sticker, the only wish to prolong the Black's suffering, so they can continue to sell themselves as the savor.

Battle not with monsters, least ye become a monster yourself.
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. wow, I admire the effort you put into your response,
though I don't agree with it.

You are right about the phrase, Dean's centerpiece phrase was "the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

You seem to think I'm a Clark supporter, but I haven't narrowed my choice to a single candidate yet. Things are to much in flux now to hitch my wagon to a candidate.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It wasn't my intention to paint you as a Clark supporter.
However, it is my oppinion that Dean and Clark represent diametricly opposed points of view. And this I use Clark as mirror by which to reflect my observations and oppinions. If I presumed to much about your oppinion, than I appoligise for doing so.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Screeeecccchhhh!
Edited on Sat Nov-08-03 09:02 PM by HFishbine
Your faulty logic comes to a crashing halt when you posit: "hoped it would lead southern whites to believe he supported the Confederate Flag issue."

Talk about your flawed premise. That's just totaly unsubstantiated.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. YOU'RE OUT!
"I'm going to hit it out of the park."

Okay baby, just stroke one right over the center field wall.

"It is the most powerful and emotional issue in the south.

STRIKE ONE!

"Dean knew and hoped it would lead southern whites to believe he supported the Confederate Flag issue.

STIKE TWO!

"Plus by disregarding the racist symbolism of the Confederate flag..."

STRIEK THREE!
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. That would make sense if Dean hadn't said the flag was a racially divisive
symbol. He made it clear that he didn't support the display of the Confederate flag. That being the case, the whole "centerpiece phrase" thing doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, does it?
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Closer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. Wonderful post TLM!
I wholeheartedly concur.

You are spot on!

And I think now that the dust has settled, folks realize this is the case.

All this media attention hasn't hurt Dean either. (read: name/face recognition)

Thanks for this post!
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I think Edwars was smart....



I think he knew this one was going to do way more damage to the accusers than to Dean, and wanted to get clear of the fallout ASAP.

I think Kerry is going to suffer the most though... just watch, I bet his numbers drop even more in NH. Because he's the one who said Dean endorsed the confederate flag, and that's just a cheap shot lie no matter how you spin it.

It reminded me of republicans trying to spin the consensual acts between Clinton and Lewinski as sexual harassment.
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skeptic9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. Missed the original RTV debate broadcast, but I've set my VCR to CNN...
... for tomorrow at 10am. Your great post at the top of this thread reminds me that successful candidates often reach out widely to build coalitions with newly-convinced voters, while losers often hunker down and fight with each other over a shrinking base of longtime party supporters. The controversy over Dean's remarks has me leaning closer than ever before to deciding that Dean has the best strategy and prospects for winning.

It seems to me Kerry and most of the other candidates who tried and failed to turn Dean's remarks into a "gaffe" all must have known already what Dean MEANT. What Dean SAID repeatedly could have been ambiguous to those who did not know him. Was Dean saying he personally had no problem with the Confederate swastika, or was Dean trying to build a coalition that would include Southern white males who don't agree with him on everything?

Clearly what Dean MEANT was that the Democratic Party needs to re-build the coalition of workers and retirees it had before 1980 if it wants to win back he White House. From the brief clips I've seen of the Rock-the-Vote debate, it seemed that all of Dean's critics except Sharpton were trying to pretend they felt Dean was a bigot. What a waste of precious broadcast time!

I want to see more than the brief RTV debate clips I've caught so far before I make up my mind, but it seems to me that Kerry, Lieberman and others would rather lose to Bush and enjoy leadership of a shrinking Democratic Party than adopt Dean's strategy of coalition-building for victory next November.
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