Howard Dean, you are right on... the Southern White Male will listen..

[TruthIsAll]

Dean was right about the South; other Dems should not be knee-jerk critical just because he is in the lead.

The southern white male should be brought back into the fold. They are already drifting away from BushCo as they see the Oil War for what it is and as the quagmire engulfs their buddies who are killed there every day.

They are also out of work or afraid of getting laid off. When they get sick, they need health care. When they are cut, do they not bleed?

This is NOT a black vs. white issue, as in the sixties. It IS a life vs. death issue.

I say, Howard Dean, you are right on; and shame on the other Dems for jumping all over you.

[wtmusic]

1. Right on the money

TIA we have our diffs but that says it all! :-)

[Closer]

2. There it is

Thanks for another dose of the Truth

[Democrats unite]

4. Another dose of the truth Bush style

eom

[Cha]

49. you bring up the bush card because

you have nothing.

[Democrats unite]

53. I call it like I see it.

eom

[Woodstock]

3. I didn't see the other candidates addressing this issue

At least it raised awareness.

[AP]

9. As mbali said

Remember the classic film in which Peter Sellers plays Chauncey Gardner (Chance the Gardner), a complete imbecile who makes clueless and moronic comments that everyone else thinks demonstrate his vast brilliance and insight into politics and society?

Howard Dean is starting to remind me of Chauncey. While I don't think that Dean is a moron - not even close, he's obviously a very smart man - the "Being There" dynamic infuses these discussions. Dean supporters always seem to interpret every comment he makes - regardless how casual and shallow - as evidence of his brilliance, depth and insight.

When Dean makes a simple and poorly thought-out comment about welcoming Confederate flag decal sporting white folks into the fold in the context of the NRA and gun control, his supporters turn that into some sort of insightful discussion on race.

When questions are raised about his comments, Dean supporters recite a litany of thought-provoking insights that he REALLY MEANT when he spoke, even though he didn't even come close to saying any such thing.

When he is criticized for insensitivity, we are told that this shows that he is SUPER sensitive to the issue and the very fact that we are complaining about his comments is evidence of his absolute genius.

When questions are raised about why he would make such a reckless comment, Dean supporters scream that he MEANT to stir up controversy, that he is purposely trying to provoke dialogue in a forward-thinking effort to force Democrats to finally, at long last, to address this issue.

I have no doubt that if Howard Dean held a press conference tomorrow to announce that the sky was green, Deanies would fall all over themselves proclaiming that "Dr. Dean is once again demonstrating that he is his own man and will not allow himself to be restrained by the laws of nature and science in his interpretation of the color of the sky."

It's amusing to see numerous attempts to characterize Dean's comments as further evidence of his brilliance and infallibility when the logical explanation is simply that Howard Dean said something stupid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=668593#669823

[blm]

11. Please send that to Krugman and all others who bought hooey from Dean.

If Dean was serious about wanting to open discussions about race relations he'd have done so with serious attempts by now. He hasn't.

[wtmusic]

12. And Dean detractors

'always seem to interpret every comment he makes - regardless how casual and shallow' as worthy of universal scorn.

[AP]

14. No. The treat his every comment like he's trying to say something.

And they're trying to figure out what exactly he's trying to say.

[ldf]

26. no, they treat his every comment with spin.

i have no problem whatsoever understanding what he is saying.

and i am behind him 110%.

[okieinpain]

33. the question is why hasn't said it before. damn it's so obvious

that a plan like this is needed.

[AP]

34. I think lots of people have no problem hearing what they want to think

he's saying.

And they have to disregard the things actually coming out of his mouth to arrive at the conclusions they do.

[blm]

15. REAL straight shooters don't NEED their remarks interpreted

one way or another, do they?

[wtmusic]

19. LOL show me a REAL straight shooter blm

not this Dean flake--let's get down to business!

[blm]

23. Then stop selling him as a straight shooter

when he most obviously is NOT.

[wtmusic]

30. Still waiting for YOURS...

:eyes:

[CWebster]

55. Sorta like Kerry's forever circling reason as to why he voted

to give Emperor Smirk a blank check?

[Woodstock]

16. I have yet to hear you say anthing POSITIVE about your candidate

Always just relentless bashing of Dean.

[blm]

25. Then you aren't paying attention.

And if Deanies would attempt to be more truthful about Dean, then I'll have no reason to correct the lies.

[Cha]

48. We're all "truthful"....it is

you who tells tales about Dean for whatever reason. I can't imagine why you would lie!?

[blm]

50. What lie did I ever say about Dean? Care to cite it?

.

[Cha]

52. No, I don't keep track of them....

I know I have read on here where other's have cited "them" and I just shake my head. You say we lie about Dean and I say we don't..you do.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TennesseeWalker]

5. I understood what Dean was trying to say about the flag.

I live in the kind of area that Dean was talking about. From watching county commission meetings and Board of Mayor and Alderman gatherings, public forums, and other community functions, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that these people are Democrats and don't know it. Corporatism is not loved here.

People vote against their own economic intersts in the south, and I appreciate any Democrat that tries to communicate with these people. While I may agree that the analogy is clumsy, I applaud the message behind it. Dean wasn't being racist, he was being practical.

And I'm kind of a Clark guy. :)

[ozone_man]

63. That's the way I feel about this whole flap.

I think it's pretty obvious what Dean meant, he just made a poor choice of words. In the end, people hear what someone is really trying to say. A few slip ups, gaffs along the way are normal.

I much prefer to have a straight speaking candidate, than a super polished Washington insider that's overly careful about what he says, and they often end up not really saying anything.

[dolo amber]

6. Have you not noticed

That (as much as I hate to say it) we're becoming just as bad about being knee-jerk reactionaries over some issues as....*them*?

Just say any of the following key words and see how fast a flamefest develops:

RACE!!
SOUTH!!
RELIGION!!
ABORTION!!
RAPE!!

Everyone has to out *PC* each other till we all look like idiots. Sometimes a statement is just a statement. Dean said what he meant, and while it's agreed he could have used a better choice of words, it's been made into something utterly ridiculous. Maybe someday we can get past all of this and focus on things that really matter, like getting our country back.

[blm]

7. Too bad, you didn't notice the TRUTH about Dean's remarks.

The whole article is about the NRA and gun control, and NOWHERE does Dean mention race relations. NOWHERE.

Now... did Dean say he was talking about the NRA when he made the remark? NOW, Dean says he was talking about race relations. That is not true.

I thought the TRUTH mattered to you, TIA. I always counted on you to maintain integrity above all else.
 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>> 
 Alert

[Padraig18]

44. Copy and paste time again? n/t

[barbaraann]

8. You are right.

Yesterday I chatted with a middle-aged white male veteran who had voted GOP his entire life. He told me that he couldn't believe what Bush and the GOP were doing to veteran's benefits and that he would be voting for the Dem in the next Presidential election. His exact (loud) words were "We have to get rid of Bush." He also said that he never, ever thought he would be saying that. After we talked, I gave him a high five about voting Dem and he responded!!!! It was beautiful.

The military has been voting R for pretty much the same reasons the South has been voting R, and we CAN win them over. Actually, George Bush can win them over for us with his evil actions. :-)

I have to say that it seems to me that the difference between ordinary R voters and ordinary D voters is that the R voters can't figure out that someone isn't on their side until it hits them in the face. They don't understand that if a leader will go after minorities it's just a matter of time before they go after them, too. And they don't understand that only a leader who cares about ALL of the people truly cares about them.

[StClone]

10. An Irony to hope for

A real white male Northeasterner overcomes a fake Southern's (Andover Bush family) appeal in the South to take the WH.

Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean could work.

[Gin]

13. Dean is absolutely right on this issue.....having said that..

I hope ...no matter who wins the nomination...we come together and support the candidtate...we need to win this thing...I personally want Dean to win...but will support another Democrat.

This bush has got to be trimmed to the roots.

[leftofthedial]

17. yup

this issue has been addressed disingenuously both in the campaign and here on DU.

[bigtree]

18. lots of talk from Dean about white southerners

I'm waiting for the conversation to turn to the traditional Democratic voters, minorities included. This is a race for the Democratic primary, not the conservative club. We need to focus on traditional Democrats or we could lose 3 just to get one southern conservative vote.

I don't like the threats of: Support Dean no matter what or you'll get Bush. Or.the southern voters who have never voted for Democrats are our only hope.

There is something so craven about bending your principles to get these votes. I think giving any cover for rebel flag-wavers is too high a price for a vote.

It is bewildering to me to see the frantic efforts to appease these folks. We won the last election without them. We can win another without them. We don't have to make a republican noise. We just need to stick to our Democratic principles. Votes will follow our conviction.

I am a longtime Democrat. Never voted outside of the party. Never will. But, I think we can go so far in our appeal to the white southerners that we alienate our core constituencies. We shouldn't take their vote for granted. Not unless we want our party to become more like these southern prospects, to the supression of our core beliefs.

In my view, we should put our liberal foot in the door and keep it there. Conservatism be damned!

[KoKo]

20. Quote from White Southerner in Charleston in NYT's article about SC/Dean:

"Tom Turnipseed, a Columbia lawyer and self-described "reformed racist" who was Gov. George C.
Wallace's national
campaign director in 1968, said, "Democrats have got to reach across, and understanding is the only
way."

"You can get those folks together on economic issues," he said, referring to the Southern whites Dr.
Dean wants to court. "And
on war and peace — they're the ones who fight and die," he said, referring to the war in Iraq. "They
feel like they were very
much misled."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/08/national/08CARO.html?ei=5062&en=c9caf6d10fce18e6&ex=1068958800&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=

[janx]

58. Tom Turnipseed? Is this supposed to be satire?!

LOL!

[HFishbine]

28. I might agree with you if...

I knew what principles are being bent. Can you enlighten me?

[bigtree]

32. I believe that our party has done nothing wrong

I refuse to accept that we have done something to turn off the white southerners. They are held by the republican party with a pack of lies about our patriotism and our motives. There is nothing that our party has done, in my view, that should offend white southerners. There are no positions, in my view, which our national party has taken which should be seen as harmful to the white southerners.

There is nothing we should change about our party to appeal to the right wing for votes. My post is more of a generic appeal to hold true to traditional Democratic values. I am afraid that we can go too far in our appeals.

So, reach out. But with a sensitivity to the core of the party. The ones who have always supported the party and always will. We shouldn't give deference to conservative views or conservative voters in our appeal, rather we should project our traditional liberal values first. Stand up for them, and the votes will follow.

[HFishbine]

38. No contradiction here

I must have misunderstood. When you wrote about bening principles, I thought you were refering to something you had observed. Now I think I understand you are warning against what you hope won't happen.

I think Dean would agree with you. I've found nothing in his words to suggest that he is even remotely talking about bending our principles -- not even a little.

The whole point he is trying to make is that if we did a better job about communicating our principles, if we talked about our principles even to people who we take for granted as only capable of supporting republicans, that we can win support from even the most unlikely of supporters.

Dean is not advocating that we become more like "them," but that we include "them" in our dicussions so that they will see they have a reason to look beyond their preconceptions and recognize that we have more in common than divides us.

[bigtree]

45. tough balance

Best of luck to Mr. Dean.

[TruthIsAll]

29. Health care, jobs and not getting killed in an Oil War are liberal issues

for everyone, including southerners..


We are all liberals...

[bigtree]

35. I agree

with a Democratic, liberal approach to those issues. There are different approaches. Most conservative, republican approaches to these issues are wrong headed. I'm for putting our traditional liberal foot forward on these issues. I reject the conservative views.

Examples:

Health care:
conservatives-vouchers, HMO's
Liberals- universal coverage.

Jobs:
conservatives-give tax money to your boss
Liberals- invest tax dollars in communities and infrastructure

War:...

[CWebster]

56. It was the other candidates who blew this issue up

Starting with that clown Sharpton, pissed by Jesse Jackson Jr's endorsement of Dean, and then the pile on by the rest. Edwards seeing it as an opportunity to score points by playing on regional allegiances.

[The Commie]

59. The dems...

need to keep the south from going solid red. If Dean can break the Repugs' death-grip on the south we will win in a landslide. The hyper-reactionary bible-thumpers down there will whither away as President Dean and VP Edwards wring out the crap and revitalize the area economically.

:kick:

[caledesi]

21. TIA. I understood what HD was saying, esp. living here in Tampa.

Of course he was right. Bring the South back to the Democratic Party. There is nothing in the Republican Party for them. The Repugs used God and guns to get them in.

[livinontheedge]

22. Amen. You start by reaching out to them.

Then you offer them something they want but can't get from the republicans. That is Dean's challenge . . . to figure out what that something is.

[Skittles]

54. Um, just out of curiosity

WHAT ARE THEY GETTING FROM REPUBLICANS NOW ?????

[spooky3]

62. They get the illusion that they are on the "winning team"...

that they're better than blacks, women, immigrants (fill in the blank...) and they are in power at least in their small personal spheres.

[HFishbine]

24. Southern, White, Middle-Aged, Liberal Male weighing in with an

AMEN!

[robbedvoter]

31. I dunno. Not from South, but mighty offended here

A few people think differently:

Dean broke out the wrong flag

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/134337p-
119737c.html


It's time for Howard Dean to take a long look at himself in the mirror.
If he can't figure out why his statement about embracing those who fly
the Confederate flag is wrong, he definitely does not have what it
takes to be President.

Dean’s Stumble
The can of worms that Howard Dean opened with his ill-conceived effort to
identify himself as "the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their
pickup trucks" is not one that can be resealed with the words of regret the
former Vermont governor belatedly offered. By inadvertently reopening the
deepest wound within the nation, the race issue, Dean hurt himself and did a
disservice to his party.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14251-2003Nov7.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9714-2003Nov6.html
washingtonpost.com

Why Some Resent Talk of Confederate Flag


Dean's latest faux pas flags brash attitude (Kenny Column)
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/11/05/
3fa9146a10b63
By Christopher Kenny
November 05, 2003


Last week my inbox was stuffed with e-mails from Howard Dean supporters
calling me, in so many words, an idiot for not seeing that Dean's brash
style is what makes his candidacy so refreshing and attractive. The
convincing case against my idiocy aside, I hardly think Dean's latest
faux pas is what his supporters had in mind.
snip

These comments drip with racial insensitivity, as embracing the
Confederate flag alienates black voters and flies in the face of the
Democratic Party's rich tradition as the party of civil rights."More.....

Fact is, the more I read the insensitivity of his followers here, the more I know: I cannot vote for someone who told an offended young black man: "But I need to take care of the poor whites"
If somehow Dean is nominated, ABB is off - I'll probably just leave.
I've been struggling with this for days - but every visit to DU, every "Don't apologize" "He apologized -get over it" made it harder and harder to get over . I'll work like hell to get my guy nominated, I'd vote any other dem (yes, even Lieberman, Gephardt), but not this person.
You may want to know that outside of DU, there are plenty of people who feel just as strongly about that as me - not just in the South, not just blacks.

[HFishbine]

36. Be Straight - There was no "embracing" of the rebel flag

I know sometimes people parse language to try to defend themselves, but in this case, I think it's instructive. I think there are subtle twists by critics that must be corrected for an honest understanding.

Dean did not say he wants to embrace the guys with rebel flags on their trucks. He wants them to embrace the democratic party. He did not embrace, literally or figuratively, the flag itself or the bigotry associated with it. What he was clearly saying was that he wants "those guys" to look past their prejudices and consider embracing a democratic point of view.

Demand an honest account from critics who begin with the assertion that Dean was "embracing" the flag, and these "critiques" fail before they even get started.

[bigtree]

39. Dean said on CNN after the Debate

"... all southerners who wave the confederate flag aren't racist."

Without that statement you could argue that he wasn't covering for the flag.

He condemed the flag in the debate and then afterward said that he could understand why some are waving it.

He gave cover for rebel flag wavers. Do you?

[HFishbine]

41. You probably won't take my word for it

so ask somebody else who's from the south, Dean was right. All southerners who wave the confederate flag are not recist.

Do I give "cover" to rebel flag wavers? Well yes, if by "cover" you mean that I offer an explaination on their behalf. I suppose in that way I offer them cover here on DU for the purpose of trying to help democrats undertand that these guys are not all racists and that they may well be winnable as voters.

But I don't give cover to the rebel flag and that's an important distinction. I understand the flag to be too imbued with a message of intimidation and racism for any of its other messages of rebellion or southern heritage to have any credence. I understand that, some people still don't. We can ignore them, or we can go talk to them abotu why they should consider voting for a democrat.

[bigtree]

47. Can we agree that the flag waving is offensive to some of our traditional

core constituency?

[HFishbine]

66. Better late than never?

Yes. On that we can agree.

[QC]

42. Politics is not always a zero sum game.

I cannot vote for someone who told an offended young black man: "But I need to take care of the poor whites"

Offering health care and decent schools to one group does not necessarily mean refusing to offer them to another one. I cannot recall Dean saying that he would just have to write off one group because he was too busy helping another.

Dean's phrasing was unfortunate but his his point was one that Progressives have been preaching for over a hundred years: that the working classes of all races have common interests and should vote together.

[Kamika]

37. The more the other candidates jump on him the more southern votes hell get

Im loving it

[bigtree]

40. He might be losing some Northern ones.

Love that?

[Kamika]

43. i dont care about that

What are you gonna do? Vote green?

[bigtree]

46. Boy, that's some reaching out.

"You're either with us or against us." GB

[Cha]

51. Thank you, TruthIsAll, for telling it ~

damn straight. Anybody with eyes can see this but those who have agendas ..hidden and otherwise will whine and moan that Dean isn't pc enough or maybe he's (horrors) a "racist"! Shock!

I'm so glad the rest of our Country is catching on to DEan and our campaign! It's very encouraging!

[DemDogs]

57. Edwards talks to them everyday

And white Southern males voted for him. And he didn't have to slap African-Americans in the face to do it.

Dean has a lot to learn.

[Dr Fate]

60. Dean wants to help "rednecks" as well as southern black folks...

I want white males with confederate flags to vote DEM too.

I know exactly what Dean meant- the right has successfully divided rural whites and southern blacks- DEMS need to bridge that gap again because both groups actually have similar economic situations...

I dont support him as my #1 choice, but I do not take Dean's comments out of context or perspective either...I dont think the remarks were racist at all, and I think most rational voters will give him a pass...

[snoochie]

61. And Condi's second cousin agrees! n/t

[chaska]

64. Dean was right, but wrong.

First of all, Several of you here are confusing Southern white males (of which I am one) and Confederate flag wavers (of which I am not). Dean addressed the latter. I am frankly a little offended that you conflate the two.

I've already posted my rather well informed (if I must say so myself) opinion on this several times, so instead of repeating it yet again I will quote Merle Black, the foremost authority on Southern politics. But remember, I said it first.

This is from the David Broder article posted here earlier.


So I asked Merle Black, the Emory University scholar and author on southern politics, how Dean's words would be heard by southerners. "For a lot of African Americans," he said, "the fact that Dean used a Confederate symbol is very insulting. That remark can be used effectively against him," especially in Democratic primaries, where blacks make up a large percentage of the voters.

As for the white voters Dean embraced, Black said, "These are the most conservative voters in the South and the least likely to vote for Dean. I can't imagine a bumper sticker reading 'Flaggers for Dean.' They are the least likely to participate in the Democratic primaries, and I doubt they're really interested in his message. It comes across as saying that 'Southerners are so dumb they've been voting against their own interests, so I'm going to educate them on the error of their ways.' And what makes it worse, it's coming from a Vermont Yankee."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14251-2003Nov7.html

[sal]

65. he said male and not female

White males with a high school education or less tend to vote Democratic in greater numbers than their white male counterparts with college hours or degrees. White females with a high school educated or less tend to vote significantly more Republican than college education women.

Winning back the "Reagan Democrats" with a forceful articulation of the need for economic justice for struggling whites and blacks is essential. Let's be fair, poor white people need to feel like they can contribute and be effected positively by change they helped make.

[chaska]

67. Here's more.

AUGUSTA CHRONICLE

COLUMBIA SC (my town - I'm so proud)

Chewing his barbecue under a Confederate flag at the Piggie Park restaurant, Greg Wilson figures he's just the kind of pickup-driving Southerner that Howard Dean wants to bring back to the Democratic Party.

But Mr. Wilson, a staunch Republican and Bush supporter, said that's not about to happen, especially in light of a Confederate flag remark that did nothing more than make him angry.

"It just goes to prove how much of an idiot he is," Mr. Wilson says. "He's vying for votes that he's probably not going to get anyway."

Across a state that's the site of the South's first presidential primary, Mr. Dean's plea "to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks" has fallen flat with the people he was trying to reach.

Among blacks, expected to make up about half the voters in the state's Feb. 3 primary, the response was even more negative. In a state in the midst of a lingering economic boycott over the Confederate flag that flies over the Statehouse grounds, some said Mr. Dean's remark could be seen as an attempt to reach out to a racist element.

Though Mr. Dean is the front-runner in several key primary states, he polled only in the middle even before the Confederate flag controversy. Political observers said the fallout from his remark and belated apology should only make matters worse for him in the Palmetto State and elsewhere in the South.

end

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Dean is wrong to try to bring back poor whites to the party. I am saying (1) that this is not doable in time for it to do him any good (it will take many years to bring them back, if it's possible at all), (2) that he doesn't understand the South, and (3) that he made a mistake - a big one.