Is America an neo-conaholic that needs to hit rock bottom?

[illini]

I am not so sure that America doesnt need to hit rock bottom. Denial is always the hardest stage of any addiction to get past. Often, the only way to get past it is to hit rock bottom. I had a friend who didnt think he had a problem until he had smoke up $150,000 worth of an inheritance in just a few short months. I took him losing everything to finally admit "man I have a huge f***ing problem". Many of us (his friends) tried to stop him. We pleaded, begged, and threatened him in a effort to get him to realize what he was doing to his life. None of our efforts were successful. It wasnt until his wife divorced him, his kids were gone, and he was living in a $20 a night hotel room with a crackho that he realized his problem and called a few of the friends he still had left. He is doing better now. It took ROCK SOLID BOTTOM for him to realize his mistake.

I relate this story because I think American maybe in the same situation. It needs to keep hitting the shrubrock and keep hitting it and keep hitting it and keep hitting it and keep hitting it and keep hitting it until it finds itself in a $20 a night hotel room with a PNACho.

I am not so sure we on the left shouldnt just sit back for a while and let America hit rock bottom. Stop our opposistion to neo-con policies. Stop our opposition to the religious right. Stop our oppostion all together and watch. Let America hit bottom and help pick up the pieces and put them back in a proper order.

Thanks for reading my rant. :smoke:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. We can't afford to have America hit rock bottom

That's not an option, for our survival's sake.

[Hep]

2. That's what Nader wants us to think

I was kinda thrown by how similar your questions are to the statements Nader has given out. I don't intend to make this a nader bashing thread, but there IS a school of thought that says twe DO need to hit rock bottom before we can change things.

I don't agree.

[belle]

7. Yeah...

Anyway, what would "rock bottom" actually mean? Because if the it-has-to-get-worse-before-it-can-get-better types are thinking of, say, an actual economic depression, do they by any chance remember what happened after the last one? Or anther terrorist attack? Besides the callousness of passively accepting one happening, what if it has the opposite effect and we all rally around our beloved leader once more?

Personally, I think before we rallied up from "rock bottom" we'd find that it was in fact a false bottom, and that that there was much, much further to fall...as there *always* is. Civil war? Handmaid's Tale-style scenario, anyone? World War III, nukes 'n all? Sure, maybe the few remaining survivors would have a hell of a novel at the end of all of it, but is it worth it? Is our real goal a big "See, I Told You So" tombstone? Because it ain't mine.

Conversely, remember that the 60's happened when America was relatively propsperous and comfortable.

[knowledgeispower]

16. I think we do

I see the United States as marching along this inevitable path to a sort of neo-con Utopia (which is, to say, not a Utopia at all), and all the current political process can do is maybe slow our descent down a little bit. I think a total fall to rock bottom is necessary for a fundamental change in thought among the masses, which is what will be required to get us out of this mess.

[LittleApple81]

20. Look, I come from a country that has been saying that for over 50

years... and the situation is horribler and horribler (made up word) every year...bottom not in sight...people suffering...economy in the tank... people at all levels of society being killed, kidnapped... criminals controlling the country.
You cannot let it hit rock bottom because of the STUPIDITY OF THE MASSES. Everybody will suffer and it can be for a long time.

[Resistance Is Futile]

23. Exactly

See what I wrote in post #13.

[leftofthedial]

3. good analogy

I think it's true. I agree that America "can't afford" to hit rock bottom, but it seems that might be the only way to drive a wooden stade in the heart of the neocon oligarchist vampires who are sucking this country dry.

[lostnfound]

15. I think it's true, too; but too dangerous to wait.

Their 'lesson' might end up taking the whole world down and/or the corporate-police state might be too empowered for any resistance to survive.

[devinsgram]

19. Kinda like tough love,

you hit the bottom before you can start climbing back up.

[Fovea]

4. the difficulty with this metaphor

is that your legs do not walk away when you lie down in the gutter.

America will not hit rock bottom; it will come apart.

I have been predicting a second civil war for about 5 years now, ever since the Clinton impeachment.
The contract on America was the opening salvo of a cold culture war. In 06 it will be a hot culture war.

We are two years away from it, if a Progressive cannot win control of the Whitehouse in 04.

[Maccagirl]

12. How do we prevent this from happening?

Are you saying the progressives are just lazy? We're not getting our message out and are just laying down in the gutter? What's the answer to getting the majority of Americans to wake up and empower themselves by voting this cabal out of office?

[Melsky]

5. I hope not

but it really does look like we are in a downward spiral.

[tom_paine]

6. The analogy I prefer is that of Cult Follwer

The Busheviks are to Imperial Amerikan Subjects as Koresh was to Branch Davidians, or Moon is to the Moonies, or Jim and laila Green are to the Free Love Ministry (Sacramento, CA).

A cultist takes a victims weakness, their fears (minorities, gays, change), grabs hold of them and pumps their venom inside (Faux, and the rest of the {Party-Loyal Sub-Media), while demonizing anything that isn't of the cult ("librul media") as automatically rejectable.

Once the utter dependence on Leader is created, combined with the inability to accpet anything NOT Approved by Leader, you hae the perfect automaton, Freeper, Dittohead, Brownshirt (but I repeat myself).

This person, like any cult follower, cannot be unstuck, no matter the fact. If Leader says 1 + 1 = 3, then it is so and don't listen to the Rats (funny, Hitler also called his victims "rats") who say otherwise for they are demons...inhuman.

Creat such an indigestible mass of readily programmable monsters and they will fight meaner (the beauty of having your conscienec and critical faculties erased by Beloved Leader) and harder that normal people.

Is this not EXACTLY what we are up against?

Now, the way they have spread their "information denial system and lie laundry" into every orifice of nation life, that is another topic for another discussion, but it is similar to the methods other cultists use to "grow their operations".

And what happens when a cult hits rock bottm? They start looking for people to "put in the box" or kill.

It's not good people. From Nazi Germany to Jim Jones' Jonestown, history tells us what Freepers/Dittoheads/Brownshirts (but I repeat myself) are capable of when they hit "rock bottom".

just don't be caught by surprise when it happens.

[AlienGirl]

18. You've hit the nail on the head

Remember what happened when Germany hit rock bottom? :scared: I believe any long-term economic or social crisis in the US will have similar devastating effects.

Tucker

[Resistance Is Futile]

22. Nazi Germany

Germany didn't hit rock bottom until Soviet infantry knocked on the door to Hitler's bunker and didn't take 'go away' for an answer. Starting WWII was most certainly not 'rock bottom.' Due to geography and nuclear weapons, America is basically immune to invasion so it is certain that rock bottom in America will not follow the German experience that closely.

The likely end-games for America are something resembling the fall of the Roman empire--a long period of despotism from which the state never recovered--or the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[Kitsune]

8. Most people who hit rock bottom

don't have hydrogen bombs to throw around on the way down.

I understand what your arguement is and I almost agree with it, but the idea of this country getting worse before it gets better scares the bejeezus out of me.

[Gin]

10. I agree that it might take a collapse of the government and financial

sytems to put it back together and make it whole. The sytem is too corrupted and the ruling powers honor the gods of money and power.

The only thing a citizen who disagrees can do until this gets resolved is..stay the course you know in your heart is right for yourself and the country as a whole...speak out...vote even if it's counted or not. We can't control everything and sometimes out of control situations need to fall apart.

It will be painfull and frightening..travel light...hang on..it will be a wild ride. We don't live in a vacuum so we will be along for the ride.

The Universe has rules and woe to those that break those rules at the expense of others. Payback will be hell.

[SahaleArm]

29. Aristocracy.

The system is too corrupted and the ruling powers honor the gods of money and power.

The history of civilization is rife with examples of this, certainly nothing specific to the US. The founding fathers didn't believe in concentrating wealth, a result of 19th/20th century industrialzation and war profiteering.

[Zorra]

9. No; rock bottom for neo-conaholics means

nuclear devastation.

[BeFree]

11. The Sheeple murmurrings

"Aw, come on" the Sheeple say "One more roll back of democracy can't hurt. As soon as the terrorists are gone it'll be back to normal, we promise. It's ok to have the patriot act and the invasion of Iraq, it made us feel good. We know what we are doing, we trust him and like to have a beer with him. Just as soon as the terraist are gone...."

[Resistance Is Futile]

13. Recovery not assured

There are many, many examples of long-lived kleptocratic olgiarchies along the lines of what the Republican party is building in America. Even if the GOP succeeds in destroying the middle class and capturing %95 of GDP for itself, this emergence of strongly progressive political force is not certain. Most third world countries have operated under GOP-ideal income distibution models since the age of European settlement. While most of these places are not exactly stable, very, very few third world countries have ever deposed a sitting olgiarchy and installed a responsibile government that has worked to create an optimum income distribution.

When the GOP succeeds in turning America into a bannana republic, there is every reason to think that the new regime will last for a very long time indeed. Frankly there is not enough time left to stop the GOP domestic agenda. They have been working unopposed for thirty years and they have all the cards now.

There is, however, some chance of defeating PNAC. This is of critical importance even if the GOP domestic agenda goes through. Strangling the PNAC imperialist movement means that there is somewhere else for refugees from the culture wars to flee and, more importantly, that some other components of human civilization are left standing to help pick up the pieces in a few hundred years.

[Deja Q]

14. I thought that's what the Dems in office were doing!

The Dems in office seem to be at odds with the Presidential candidates by supporting Bush's policies.

So as I'll never be able to figure out why, I just won't care. I'm a budding progressive with an agenda and I'm going to spread the word. America may end up bathing in the cesspool until its death arrives (I'd give about 2 generations or 40 years if things remain the same and that's a liberal estimate, I personally think the US doesn't have THAT long) but at least I would have tried.

We MUST keep fighting for what is good and what is right. Otherwise we become no better than those we fight.

[ibegurpard]

17. Well, unfortunately, we ARE America

and will hit "shrubrock" just as hard as everyone else will.

[regnaD kciN]

21. I'm beginning to fear that you may be right...

...especially after thinking that this year was marking the turning-point toward sanity, and then see the results of the elections over the past month, where even supposedly "liberal" areas like Seattle moved to the right instead.

The way I see it, the American public has absorbed so much pro-conservative propaganda over the past twenty-five years (not only from the Republicans and the increasingly right-wing media, but also from the DLC triangulators and all those Democrats who seemed to want to defeat liberalism within their own party even more than defeating the Republicans), that it has finally sunk in so deep that it can't be eradicated by counter-information.

In short, we have a new civil religion in this country, made up of equal parts laissez-faire capitalism (as the sacred judge of an individual or group's value rather than just an economic system), extreme individualism and personal liberty (for yourself), a puritanical moral code (for everyone else), a highly-edited version of evangelical Christianity (an optional garnish for self-reassurance), and a worship of celebrity and wealth (as a "sacrament" that lifts us up out of our mundane lives and into contact with the realm of the divine, as determined by laissez-faire capitalism, above). Call it "Neo-Americanism." (I'm sure you can think of other names, but let's use that for now.)

The first point is that "Neo-Americanism", like Marxism in the old Soviet Union, has gone from being a set of ideas and concepts to be judged against other ideas and concepts, to become a religion that is beyond judgement itself. I suspect we have reached the key point in the transformation of "Neo-Americanism" from a political philosophy to a religion when people have internalized it so thoroughly that they will act against their own personal interest, such as when they willingly support "pro-business" policies, tax cuts for the rich, and so on, even when it makes their lives more difficult. They have accepted the first principle of "Neo-Americanism," that capitalism has determined who are the more "worthy" members of society, and agreed that, insofar as they themselves are not rich or famous, it is because they have failed in living up to the beliefs of their religion, and thus are undeserving of what should go to their betters.

And the second point is that "Neo-Americanism," as a religion, now serves as the a priori basis of any further thought, rather than as a subject for critical thought itself. For a devotee, all conscious "reasoning" will only be in accord with the principles of "Neo-Americanism" -- anything that goes outside those principles, or, worse yet, challenges them, will be subconsciously screened-out before it can even become a part of conscious reasoning. If such thoughts reach the conscious at all, they will be accompanied by a sense that they are absurd or even unthinkable -- much like you might get if you suggest to a fundamentalist that every word of the Bible might not be literally true. They will be eliminated before they can even be taken seriously, for taking them seriously would undermine the assumptions that the person's life is built on.

And the only way one breaks free of such a religion, like an addiction, is when one can see clearly that its principles are destructive and have brought one's life to ruin. Just being told that the religion is destructive isn't enough...the "believer" has to personally experience that destruction, and realize that the problem isn't that they aren't zealous enough in practicing the religion, but that the religion itself is the problem.

Thus, I have little hope that the political direction of this country can change, despite our best efforts, until enough people have hit rock-bottom and realized that "Neo-Americanism" is a false religion in their own life. And I don't see that happening soon (although I may be underestimating our current leaders in this), nor will it be without severe pain to the rest of us.

:-(

[drfemoe]

24. He didn't hit bottom

Bottom for an addict is death .. the same end we all expect.

The idea of 'hitting bottom' is a myth of the recovery industry. People change if and when they decide the price of misery has gotten higher than they want to pay.

Anything and everything that happens is interpreted by the religious right as proof that the end of the world (and their salvation) is nigh at hand.

Muslim extremist believe that the sacrificial deaths of themselves and others advances the cause of Allah.

Xtian extremist believe that sacrificing the lives of others advances the cause of Jesus. They are schizophrenic because they both fight the 'new world order' and welcome 'it' as proof that they possess prophecy.

So, if we are fighting a contingent that believes the destruction of the world is their final victory, what price of misery is too high for them to pay?

[Kinkistyle]

25. Your friend was not at "rock-bottom".

He was still alive.

[Castilleja]

26. I don't know about letting it hit, but

I am feeling that people have to be very badly affected, and personally so, to have anything appear on their radar. People are not aware right now, and not inclined to get that way, because things are not happening to them. That and this country seems to be operating in a very short sighted way right now.

[Military Brat]

27. The dragon must show itself and be recognized

Well, anyway, that's the way a philosophical friend of mine looks at it. He believes that people who support bush/cheney just won't recognize what they're dealing with until bush/cheney spew their full hatred and violence upon the world. *shudder*

I and my fellow DU'ers already see the dragon, and we will fight the dragon before it emerges completely in its mission to destroy all that is good. And we will win. Melodramatic? Maybe. But I've seen too many pictures of too many dead children. And in Saudi Arabia tonight, more dead children. The connecting link is always bush/cheney, with their never-ending "terrorists, terrorists" mantra.

As Tolkien said, It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you leave near him.

[Resistance Is Futile]

28. Invisible Dragons

Unfortunately, the most of the public is colorblind and thinks the red dragon is nothing but a large green rock. They don't recognize the dragon even when it hits them in the head and charbroils one of their relatives.