What is the problem with changing ones mind? Is that so evil?

[Scott Lee]

Enough.

For days I've sifted through the sour-noted tomes of Dean Haterz and DNC establishment types alike assailing Howard Dean for "flip flops"; which is political-speak for changing one's mind. The time has come to address this issue. So here's the big question:

What is so damned wrong with changing one's mind?

Is that NOT a trait of the liberal thought process? You know, the one we are all so supposedly proud of?

Would some of you prefer a Stalinesque, "stay the course" stubbornness that equates the worst in the rightwing way of conservative thought?

If faced with new information or realities, would you be so egotistically stupid as to grasp ahold of your "positions" and preconceptions like they were the holy grail, never even considering that perhaps they are no longer appropriate or correct?

The real issue would be honesty, to me. Changing your stance to benefit your party or your constituents is a virtue, whereas just plain doing a 180 for less noble reasons is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Has Dean changed some of his positions for the first reason, or the second? If the second, can you prove your case?

Stop trying to imitate the dusty closed mindedness of the garden variety conservative! Change your mind, if circumstance and new information deem it necessary! As long as you aren't doing a thorough abandonment of some core ethical principles, what in hell is the problem?

[Nikia]

1. I think that we hold politicians to higher standards

By the time that they run for office, they are suppose to know what they believe and what would work best. We are suppose to judge them based on their clearly defined positions. We forget that they are every learning and changing humans like the rest of us with open minds.
On the otherhand, politicians do often change their stance on issues to become more popular and gain votes. At least on a national level, they have to win certain large voting blocks to win the election. Sometimes, people wonder if the politicians will really keep their campaign promises when they have changed their stance to get votes.

[Scott Lee]

5. OK let's take what you just said...

and follow it through...

On the otherhand, politicians do often change their stance on issues to become more popular and gain votes. At least on a national level, they have to win certain large voting blocks to win the election.

True! My question to you, then, is this....do you NOT want Dean to get more votes than Bush in a presidential contest?

[maha]

10. Real-world example

Dean is getting kicked for "flip flopping" on Medicare. I did a lot of googling to try to understand what his old position was, and I believe this is it: Back in 1995 or so, he advocated cutting Medicare costs by making Medicare a managed-care type program instead of a fee-for service program. This was an idea a lot of people were playing with at the time. Now (as I understand it) he has changed his mind and does not advocate making Medicare a managed-care program.

Now, frankly, I don't see what the big bleeping deal is about this. Sometimes ideas come along that are very attractive, but after trying them out or thinking about them some more, it turns out that the ideas weren't so hot. To insist that politicians must NEVER change their minds on such issues is to put them into a straightjacket.

It seems to me that Dean's underlying belief in a need for health care benefits for older or other needy people has not wavered. He's just changed his mind about the policies needed to deliver those benefits.

I find it alarming or suspicious when candidates flip flop on fundamental values, and if you can give me an example of Dean's flopping on a fundamental value, speak up. But what's the big deal about changing one's mind on policy details?

[slinkerwink]

2. I agree with you so I'm kicking this thread!

:kick:

[bryant69]

3. Some people are sure though

One example is Kerry and the build up to war. I kind of buy what Kerry has said because I went through a similar transition. I bought some of the reasons for war. I bought the idea that he had weapons of mass distruction (frankly I went to rallys and talked to people, most of the poeple I talked to thought he did too--just that he could be contained and forced to disarm without war). And I thought better of the administration than I ought to have; I thought they would actually let the inspections go through to completion. As the case has unravelled in the months since, I have some sympathy for Kerry.

Of coures the difference is that nobody knows how I felt about it unless I tell them, but Kerry is on the record.

And I suppose if you are a person who believed from the start that the war was unjustified and that we shouldn't have invaded, it's easy enough to say, "Well, Kerry had the same info I did, why didn't he come to the same conclusion I did? If I could figure it out and Dean or Kucinich could figure it out, why was he bambozzled?"

[polmaven]

4. There is nothing wrong with it....but....

if you have really changed your mind,SAY SO!

"In 1992 I felt that way about this subject. As time has passed, and more evidence has come to light, and more is known about this or that, my thinking has evolved, and now I feel this way about it".

Absolutely a legitimate statement and a legitimate stance. I wouldn't give 2 cents for anyone who is incapable of changing her/his mind.I think it is really rather an admirable trait to be able to to change one's opinions with the emergence of new information, or with changing circumstances.

The problem in politics comes from being incapable of admittingyou have changed your mind. I don't know why it is so difficult. Why is it so difficult?

I was very proud of my state rep a few years ago when he actually admitted that he had a change of heart regarding the death penalty, and cast the deciding vote against it after making an impassioned speech on the House floor.....He got death threats because of it, and the Republicans targeted him in the next election, but he won rather handily.

All of this is a round about way of saying I think it is a flip flop if you try to pretend that this is how you felt all along, or that you never took the opposite stance in the first place. Politicians are infamous for that.

[Scott Lee]

6. Good point...so where did Dean err, in particular?

All of this is a round about way of saying I think it is a flip flop if you try to pretend that this is how you felt all along, or that you never took the opposite stance in the first place. Politicians are infamous for that.

I couldn't agree more. So is there something Dean has said or done to imply that he was guilty of this misrepresentation?

[polmaven]

11. I think it is more what he hasn't said...

He, nor many of the others, for that matter, have not said "I have changed my mind", on anything.

Governor Dean could easily have simply said "Yes, back then I thought such and such on gun control, or on Social Security, or whatever, but the country, the world, the circumstances have changed and now this is how I feel", but he hasn't. It sure would have taken the wind out of the sails of all of those detractors accusing him of flip-flopping.

Instead of flopping around like fish out of water, if Senators Kerry and Gephart had been more straight about their votes on the war, those detractors would have been quieted too.

I must say that Dennis Kucinich has come right out and said that he changed his mind on abortion rights, and none of the others have found a way to attack him for it.

[Rowdyboy]

7. I have more respect for someone who can change their mind,

out of growth, than someone who cannot. I hope to continue growing and changing until I die. The alternative is atrophy...

[slinkerwink]

9. thank you for saying that

:toast:

[Rowdyboy]

12. You're quite welcome,

my good man or woman...

on edit: Oops, I see from your profile it should be "my good woman". Hope things are well on the east coast and that crab is plentiful! Crab cakes are next to Godliness in my book

[slinkerwink]

8. :kick:

[Rowdyboy]

13. I'll see your kick and raise you one

:kick:

[elperromagico]

14. Intolerance of ambiguity

is a common trait of totalitarianism.

[HFishbine]

15. Yes, it's evil.

I mean, no. It's not.

[Silverhair]

16. It depends.

If the mind change is a result of genuine reflection on new information or even the same old info but a new line of reasoning - good. It means that the person can grow, and is seeking the best answer.

If the mind change is the result of mere political opprotunism, following the polls, then it means that the person has easy values and is not trustworthy.

I will not guess on which one Dean is.

[PurityOfEssence]

17. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you'll have to turn in your penis now

Even suggesting such things is sissiness to the enth degree. Real men don't ask directions, admit mistakes or negotiate.

It's a man's world; that doesn't mean that it's run or should be run by men, it means that those who run it are operating in proto-masculine rampage mode. Carly Fiorini would kick your ass, and you know it.

Now snivel on back to your excusifying and let the big dogs through.

The very idea.

Hmmpf.

[JanMichael]

18. Generally no. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule.

But, for most people, most of the time, no.