Dean supporters — A Question (sincere) re: BFEE and a Favor.

[Octafish]

Please tell me how Howard Dean plans to deal with the BFEE — the Bush Family Evil Empire, A/K/A the Bush Cabal or the Bush Organized Crime Family? For lack of a better term, these are the people behind the events leading up to, and possibly including:

• Selection 2000
• ENRON Energy Policy
• 9-11
• Carlyle Global Business Plan
• House of Bush and the House of bin Laden Overlap

And a whole lot of other nefariousness that is listed throughout DU, such as the BFEE connections to the assassination of President Kennedy.

I'm dead serious. Please tell me how Dean will end the influence and corruption of the BFEE. Or, if you don't know, please tell me what you think he should do to end the BFEE.

Oh yeah. The favor part comes from me. If I get an answer that satisfies me, I'll lay off any more Dean posts. Like I wrote, I'm serious.

PS: I have a dinner-lunar eclipse party I must attend, but I'll be back later this noche. TIA.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. I want to know what Kerry will do about the BFEE

right?

[Eloriel]

2. Took the words right outta my mouth

Kerry's the one with all the inside information. Kerry's the one who could put to rest all the "conspiracy theorist" charges that get leveled against those who bring up these myriad connections of the BFEE.

And yet Kerry is silent. Haven't heard a single word about what HE plans to do.

To the one with the knowledge belongs the responsibility.

BTW, this is one reason I'm against Kerry. Not just not supporting him, but against him.

Eloriel

[blm]

6. And I suspect many who are against him are doing it FOR the BFEE.

To make sure Kerry never gets the national spotlight to make his case against them.

Noone here, of course. They could never infiltrate a message board. Could they?

[ibegurpard]

8. He HAS the national spotlight BLM.

Can you imagine what a furor it would cause, not to mention a boost to his campaign, if he were to release some of the "goods" he has on the BFEE? Like I told you in another thread, I'm really tired of hearing the "waiting for the right time" excuse. I've been burned by it before and I won't buy it again unless I see more than just "trust me."

[blm]

13. He does not have any spotlight

and certainly not nationally.

[Egnever]

11. wow that tinfoil hat is atractive!

Where do I get one?

[blm]

29. You think the media is honest. I do not.

No tinfoil needed.

[Egnever]

33. They could never infiltrate a message board. Could they?

We are the press now?

Where do I pick up my check?

[blm]

61. Not quite, but....

why do so many promote GOP generated memes? Not because they are part of the BFEE, but their own political agendas are served by using the 30 years worth of memes put out against Kerry. They don't much care where the memes came from and rarely examine their sources.

[Octafish]

55. I got your tin hat right here.

[sangh0]

93. No one ever infiltrates DU

(God, I can't believe I posted that without cracking up)

[PVnRT]

105. Oh, nice

Now we're accusing people of being moles. Is there any low that you will not stoop too?

[JackRiddler]

7. Must agree...

It's Kerry more than anyone who is best equipped to take up these issues. And what the hell is he doing? Attacking Dean. Ah. I see. Sorry.

But if he does finally say he's willing to use the material that he has gathered in his investigations into BCCI, CIA-Drugs, October Surprise and presumably much more PUBLICLY, well, then I'm definitely ready to endorse Kerry for Attorney General. At the very least.

Do note that there once was a president almost as well equipped to go after the BFEE as Kerry. The Barry Seal (proven Bush informant!) drug shipments of Contra/CIA cocaine were largely coming in through the airport at Mena, Arkansas, where the local law enforcement was helping to cover it up. And what did Bill Clinton do about this when he became president? Did he use the bully pulpit to expose the BFEE? Did he declassify key documents? Did he push the case subtly, through leaks or by encouraging selective prosecutions? And what did he do when the right-wing started attacking him for peanuts? Did he strike then? And what did he do when the right-wing even tried to pin MENA on HIM?

Astonishingly, no matter he never used this material. With one interesting exception. Hours before the motion to impeach was introduced in the House, he did order the partial release of the CIA inspector general's report on Contra/cocaine and the South Central connection. The media did nothing with this, and Clinton never mentioned it, but it's hard to believe no one noticed the implicit threat.

So he was willing to use his inside knowledge to protect himself, yes. To lodge counter-threats directed at the BFEE, yes. But to expose the BFEE for their crimes and put an end to them? Apparently he thought this was too much for him.

Having seen that performance, you'll forgive me if I want to see Kerry deliver the goods up front, instead of taking the word of his supporters that he might be delivering the goods, as soon as he's safely ensconced in the White House.

Let's see the beef! Inspire me. Kerry can win the skeptics over in a wink. Just start talking about the Bush mob.

[Octafish]

35. Thanks. You must have missed Kerry mention BCCI...

... when he spoke in the Children's Defense Fund candidates forum a few months ago. I heard him bring up the crooked bank and Iran-Contra drug running when he addressed the Detroit Economic Club about six weeks back. Here's some of what Kerry said on the topic at the CDF forum:

SENATOR JOHN KERRY: I think there are great distinctions between us, but the most important thing that everybody here in the country is looking for is confidence that someone will offer real leadership, and has passed the test of character with respect to leadership, so that they know that that person will stand up and take this country where we want to go. I believe that beginning with my service in Vietnam, and then my fight to end the war that I came to see as wrong. My efforts as a district attorney, first assistant district attorney, and leading the district attorney's office, where I showed by hiring, when women were only 11 percent of the bar, I hired almost 50 percent women. I created the first rape counseling efforts there. We delivered justice on time. I made groundbreaking efforts as lieutenant governor to make acid rain a national issue, and to make it part of the plank, ultimately, that we passed in the Clean Air Act.

And as a Senator, I've walked a different path. I am the only person that has nm for the Senate four times, been elected without ever taking a dime of soft money, PAC money, or independent expenditures. I have shown leadership by standing up to Ronald Reagan and holding him accountable for an illegal war in Central America. I blew the whistle on Oliver North and his illegal aid network, on the BCCI Bank, and I believe what the country wants is the capacity to make America safer, stronger, and more secure and whose priorities for children, for health care, for the environment, and education are in sync with most Americans. And I believe I offer that.

SOURCE:

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dc040903/cdf040903tre.html

Now, getting to my original question: What would a President Dean do to bring the BFEE to justice? Ignorance is no excuse.

[Eloriel]

67. That's it? What he did in the PAST?

That amounted to virtually nothing?

Psssst. Here's a clue for you: The BFEE is bigger and stronger and badder than ever.

Do NOT go expecting other people to pick up where Kerry failed, and continues to fail. It absolutely won't wash. In fact, it makes Kerry look really, really bad.

Edit: Just as a reminder, this is what your opening post says:

Please tell me how Howard Dean plans to deal with the BFEE ...

The hypocrisy is absolutely stunning.

Eloriel

[blm]

72. Baloney. What other candidate is lining up a team that can bust the BFEE?

You think people behind the scene weren't supporting Wilson when he wrote that op ed that pointed to Bush's lie on intel? He wouldn't have come forward without some serious alliances built for protection.

You think Rand Beers, Gary Hart and William Perry think this is some horserace they're involved in? They have a fairly comprehensive grasp of what has occurred and what steps need to be taken.

You sure don't mind takling advantage of the steps they've made already that have Bush's poll numbers dropping based on his credibility. You want to profit from that for your own candidate's agenda. Take advantage of the real heavy lifting done by others.

I have deep suspicions of anyone who works AGAINST Kerry and their commitment to seeing the BFEE taken down. I have to wonder why they work so hard to do what the BFEE operatives have been doing for 30 years.

[JNelson6563]

84. Dean *wouldn't* support BFEE wars

especially is he was supposedly sitting on a boatload of BFEE info.

And as to Kerry having the national spotlight, he gets it as much as the others on the nationally televised debates. If he were to make a powerful, provocative statement re: BFEE you can bet the press would be all over him. Sure they're whores and they love the smell of blood. If Kerry went off on the BFEE while the nation was watching there'd be blood int he wateer and the press couldn't resist.

If he came out and said half the shit Gore said yesterday I would seriously consider supportinghim. If he'd made half the statement Byrd did when it was time to stand up to this fascist regime I probably would've been on board all this time.

Oh but wait, we're talking about John play-it-safe Kerry. Nevermind.

Julie

[blm]

112. Baloney. The press won't pay attention

until they HAVE to. Even then they don't.

btw, given his "mixed feelings" about IranContra, Dean didn't seem to have a problem with the BFEE's wars in Central America, or the supplying of arms to both Iraq and Iran, prolonging THAT war,

[Octafish]

34. Thank you for responding, WCTV.

The question wasn't about Kerry, though. I know what Sen. Kerry will do. I want to know what Dean would do. So far, zip to zero.

In answer to your question: John Kerry said he would appoint an honest Attorney General, "One so different from John Ashcroft, it will make your head spin." An honest AG, in my understanding of Kerry's philosophy, would be one in the mold of Robert F. Kennedy. That I would like, very much. Bobby Kennedy did what no AG before, and few since, have done — he used the full force of the US government to go after organized crime, full bore. Today, things are more complicated. The Big Crooks have merged with the NAZIs, and the KKK, and the Mafia, and Wall Street, and Big Oil, and the Military-Industrial Complex to create what we call the BFEE.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

66. I don't think Dean will do a damn thing, honestly

and I doubt Kerry will either. ah well. Kerry so far hasn't said anything besides "I talked about this 15 years ago". When Kerry starts attacking Bush in public on this stuff, he'll get my vote easily.

The first headline that says "Kerry exposes Bushs on X" that's when he gets my vote.

[knowledgeispower]

97. Agreed

When I see Kerry taking on the BFEE, and there is certainly PLENTY of material out there for him to do so, then he will get my vote in a heartbeat. Right now, I don't see anything. I don't even see the whisperings of an underground campaign.

[Hep]

3. What can anyone do?

• Selection 2000

Dean supporters will man polls to make sure no intimidation takes place.

• ENRON Energy Policy

His energy policy is clearly stated on his website. Regarding the actual enaron scandal, what specific opportunities does the president have to address such a thing?

• 9-11

He'll do whatever he can to see that all the pertinant information gets to the commission. ANYONE who can help will be encouraged to do so.

• Carlyle Global Business Plan

Can you be more specific? As much like a mafia as you make it sound, it seems like you would have to wait for them to do somethin gillegal that you can prove.

• House of Bush and the House of bin Laden Overlap

If you have solid information about this, I encourage you contact someone.

I'm trying really hard. I really want you to lay off the ridiculous Dean posts.

[Octafish]

38. Thank you for responding, hep. My criticisms are not made in spite.

I appreciate you letting me know that Dean supporters will man the polls to make sure no intimidation occurs. You may be surprised to know that Supreme Court Chief Justice William Rehnquist made his "name" in conservative political circles by engaging in that very activity — no, not ensuring people could vote, but trying his damndest to keep minorities from voting.

BTW: John Kerry voted "NO," when Reagan nominated Rehnquist to head the Supreme Court after Chief Justice Burger resigned.

Just our Bill

Saturday, December 02, 2000

Lito Pena is sure of his memory. Thirty-six years ago he, then a Democratic Party poll watcher, got into a shoving match with a Republican who had spent the opening hours of the 1964 election doing his damnedest to keep people from voting in south Phoenix.

"He was holding up minority voters because he knew they were going to vote Democratic," said Pena.

The guy called himself Bill. He knew the law and applied it with the precision of a swordsman. He sat at the table at the Bethune School, a polling place brimming with black citizens, and quizzed voters ad nauseam about where they were from, how long they'd lived there -- every question in the book. A passage of the Constitution was read and people who spoke broken English were ordered to interpret it to prove they had the language skills to vote.

By the time Pena arrived at Bethune, he said, the line to vote was four abreast and a block long. People were giving up and going home.

CONTINUED...

http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20001202roddy.asp

Getting back to your response: Thanks for giving my some direction regarding Dean’s positions on other points I raised. While his platform and statements indicate he wants to learn more about what has happened, there is nothing concrete about what he would do in order to go after the criminality and treason of those who have used high office for personal gain. Because he is not experienced in this, an area of my concern since November 22, 1963, I prefer another candidate be nominated.

In regards to Bush and bin Laden, I have posted many hundred times on this very topic on DU and elsewhere, most recently yesterday on DU. Here’s a brief rundown of what is known (and it has been forwarded to the proper authorities):

QUESTIONABLE TIES
Tracking bin Laden's money flow leads back to Midland, Texas

by Wayne Madsen

On September 24, President George W. Bush appeared at a press conference in the White House Rose Garden to announce a crackdown on the financial networks of terrorists and those who support them. “U.S. banks that have assets of these groups or individuals must freeze their accounts,” Bush declared. “And U.S. citizens or businesses are prohibited from doing business with them.”

But the president, who is now enjoying an astounding 92 percent approval rating, hasn’t always practiced what he is now preaching: Bush’s own businesses were once tied to financial figures in Saudi Arabia who currently support bin Laden.

In 1979, Bush’s first business, Arbusto Energy, obtained financing from James Bath, a Houstonian and close family friend. One of many investors, Bath gave Bush $50,000 for a 5 percent stake in Arbusto. At the time, Bath was the sole U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the wealthy Saudi Arabian family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden. It has long been suspected, but never proven, that the Arbusto money came directly from Salem bin Laden. In a statement issued shortly after the September 11 attacks, the White House vehemently denied the connection, insisting that Bath invested his own money, not Salem bin Laden’s, in Arbusto.

In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests. In fact, Bath has extensive ties, both to the bin Laden family and major players in the scandal-ridden Bank of Commerce and Credit International (BCCI) who have gone on to fund Osama bin Laden. BCCI defrauded depositors of $10 billion in the ’80s in what has been called the “largest bank fraud in world financial history” by former Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. During the ’80s, BCCI also acted as a main conduit for laundering money intended for clandestine CIA activities, ranging from financial support to the Afghan mujahedin to paying intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair.

CONTINUED...

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/feature3.shtml


DU Thread with LOTS more information and links at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=610051

[knowledgeispower]

98. I appreciate it Octafish

I am a Dean supporter, but not one with blinders on. I have made a number of posts on DU raising concerns about Dean and am always slammed as anti-Dean. The ironic thing is that I'm not, I just want to make sure I am making the right decision in supporting him.

[HereSince1628]

4. Enjoy the dinner...

I guess you are not at all interested in, or maybe you completely understand, the initiatives President Dean might pursue.

[Octafish]

43. Thanks. Funny you should say that, because that's why I asked...

... I am familiar with Howard Dean's positions and have heard him speak on many subjects on television and through webcasts. My question regarded the BFEE — the axis of oil, NAZIs, organized crooks, dope money, etc. that Duhbya fronts for. He has not once mentioned government conspiracy or criminality that I have heard. I was hoping to discover what I must have missed.

BTW: Dinner was fantastic. Stir-fry vegatables and chicken on white rice. White wine for the women and Heinekens for the boys. The eclipse was awesome, too. Through the telescope at totality, the ruddy face of the full moon revealed macro-details seldom seen when viewed during its illuminated phases or at full with a lunar filter. The features bathed in silvers and whites of the full moon were replaced by blues and grays in all shades and dark yellows and deep reds, punctuated by blue-whites in various craters and deep grays of some maria. Maybe to have seen it from Stonehendge would top the visual, but it wouldn't be the same company.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

5. I am getting such a kick

watching Kerry supporters mimicking Kerry's campaign. Instead of using your energy to promote Kerry, all you do is bring more attention to Dean. Don't you realize that that strategy hasn't worked yet? Why not try something new. Keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting.

[JNelson6563]

9. bitterness and frustration

Sad to see, isn't it?

Julie

[Octafish]

50. Dean doesn't like crooks, even those who aren't convicted...

...I wonder what he would do about the crooks in the White House and throughout this badministration?

But first, let me say thanks for responding. I can always count on you, a fellow Democrat, for good cheer. It's hard, sometimes, keeping one's spirits up with the BFEE and all looting our Treasury, spoiling our planet, and killing innocent people 24/7.

Regarding Dean, though. What would he do to stop the BFEE? Like most on this thread have attested, it's a puzzler, to put it politely.

Of all people, I should ask you this: Is Dean even a Democrat? Sure, that's his party affiliation, but I mean does he really believe in those things that make a Democrat a Democrat?

From the Rutland (Vermont) Herald, here's what Dean did to shrink the Public Defender's Office — critical for equal protection under the law — in Vermont.


For the Defense

Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented. Thus, Appel felt compelled two years ago to notify the court that the Rutland public defender’s office would take no new cases unless the defendant was in jail. The Rutland office was so short of staff that case backlogs threatened to overwhelm the public defenders.

CONTINUED...

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

[JNelson6563]

85. Let me get out my crystal ball

...I wonder what he would do about the crooks in the White House and throughout this badministration?

I do not know the future and cannot speculate. Has Kerry, in between his anti-Dean rants, made statements about prosecuting Team Bush? For what? An illegal war? Oh wait, nevermind. :eyes:

But first, let me say thanks for responding. I can always count on you, a fellow Democrat, for good cheer. It's hard, sometimes, keeping one's spirits up with the BFEE and all looting our Treasury, spoiling our planet, and killing innocent people 24/7.

Amen brother! All this is made worse by episodes like that day they voted on the IWR. I remember so well the emotional rollercoaster that day was, don't you?? Levin's amendment offered hope...voted down. Byrd gave powerful and eloquent speeches, assuring his rightful spot in history, what a comfort he was on that dark day! I think one of the darkest moments was Hillary. I won't go into detail , I hope none is needed.

And where was Kerry? Oh yes, playing it safe.

But you take issue with me, a fellow Democrat not bringing good cheer to the discussion? hmmm.

You mean like this?

In an hourlong interview on a public radio program in Concord on Wednesday, Mr. Kerry, who two months ago publicly chastised his campaign manager for assailing Dr. Dean, again and again turned questions about his own views into attacks on Dr. Dean, until his host finally politely asked that Senator Kerry use his time to talk about Senator Kerry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/politics/campaigns/09DEMS.html?pagewanted=2&hp

But, but but....I thought Kerry was gonna bring the BFEE down?!?!?! Yet all he can do is bash fellow Democrats?? His behavior during our fascist years and now this subsequent campaign makes me wonder if he is the guy to do this. I believe he has the BFEE knowledge. I also believe he does not have the guts to make good use of it. He hasn't so far, too busy obsessing about Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean. Kinda like his supporters.

As to cuts in Vermont's budget, sounds bad. Much like what my own Governor is faced with, painful cuts. Of course with our expensive (not to mention illegal) war there's only going to be more of the same. Remind me to send a thank-you/you-suck card to all the assholes who got us into this mess will you?

Julie

[Octafish]

49. Thanks for answering my question.

I know what Kerry will do to the BFEE. He'll smash the crooks and bring them to justice. Kerry has talked about offshore accounts for years — from BCCI to ENRON. Funny how he hasn't got much help from any sides in Congress, the White House, or the media. The public? Most don't even know the 2000 election was stolen.

Regarding your kicks: The question was what would Dean do to stop the BFEE? Like Dean himself, you have no idea.

[RetroLounge]

51. Isn't Kerry a U.S. Senator like now, today, as we speak?

Why is he waiting to (not) become president to do something about it?

He has a pulpit to speak now. What's he waiting for?

[Octafish]

54. Excellent questions. Kerry did call for "Regime change in Washington."

Remember how DeLay, Frist and Co. and the stooges of the GOP press tried to roast Sen. Kerry for having the temerity to mention such a thing! They actually had the gall to say Kerry was unpatriotic. Kerry laughed in their face and said it was odd for chickenhawks to challenge his patriotism.

Regarding your analysis: I agree with you 100-percent. Kerry's got the goods on the BFEE, from BCCI and James Bath fronting for bin Mahfouz and bin Laden investing in Arbusto and HARKEN to Iran-contra drug running by Ollie North and his Bay of Pigs comrades. Sen. Kerry would be well-served in dishing it out to the BFEE and the American people in industrial strength quanitites. Waiting until New Year's probably wouldn't make good timing.

One last thing: So what will Dean do about the BFEE?

[janx]

79. He's a busy man. He's a senator who is running for president.

Right?

[ibegurpard]

10. I think he should ask for John Kerry's help.

And I say this in all seriousness, taking at face-value the claims that Kerry is the only one with the "goods" on the BFEE. I assume that Kerry wouldn't sit on such important information out of spite.

[JackRiddler]

12. Come on, Octafish, are you back from dinner yet?

There seems to be a powerful consensus here. Obviously none of us is sure what Dean might do about the BFEE, or even what Dean as a former small-state governor knows. Kerry knows LOADS more than Dean. He even knows the Skull and Bones mentality from the inside. Who's better equipped than he is? So tell us what KERRY, probably the preeminent expert on the BFEE, is going to do about it.

[blm]

14. Well, did Dean ever weigh in on ANY investigation while governor?

He was head of the NGA wasn't he? That carries weight. What about as a lawmaker before that? Any investigations into corruption of any sort?

Did he give any indication how he felt about BCCI? IranContra? CIA drugrunning? The funding of terrorism?

JohnKleeb posted awhile back a quote from Dean that he had "mixed feelings" about IranContra. Interesting for someone who is being sold supposedly as so clear about his positions.

[JackRiddler]

15. I'm not the big Dean supporter...

Ask his campaign. I do know about Kerry's investigations, though - important historical resources. He's made his career on this stuff. So why doesn't he trot out his guns?

[blm]

17. His guns are still lining up behind him.

Rand Beers, Gary Hart, William Perry, Joe Wilson....let them do their thing. This is no game or horserace to them. They trust Kerry to get rid of Bush. That says something.

You think Wilson would be behind Kerry if there is no plan to bring down Bush? I wouldn't doubt that op ed written by Wilson about Cheney's and Bush's Niger claim was coordinated behind the scenes. People here are so in tune with what happened or happens in the short term, they get impatient.

[JackRiddler]

19. Short term?!

I don't care any more who does it.

23 years into the BFEE nightmare, I want them to be called out and prosecuted for the gangsters they are. Finally. So that we are free of them. So that we begin to repossess our own goddamn history.

I'm so sick of waiting for any of these fake-opposition politicians to do it.

I'm so sick of investing hopes in any of them to do it.

I honestly did, in 1993, think the opening would come. Ha!

Sorry, I don't buy this secret-plan, be patient, trust-me and I'll do it bull. Heard it too many times.

I don't buy this St. Joe Wilson or St. Gary Hart crap. (Hell, I worked for the 1984 Hart campaign!) Put the cards on the table. All this judicious waiting is actually ENABLING. Has enabled.

And I'm supposed to believe it from someone who voted the IWR? How come I knew Iraq didn't have WMDs (thanks to my sound intuition and the great Scott Ritter, among others) but Kerry claims he couldn't know it for sure? PLEASE!!!

Do it, Kerry, then I'll believe you. No bullshit pay-you-in-advance-then-see plan. Sorry. Not for you. Not for the smartest guy in this shitpile.

[blm]

20. I didn't say that. I said I think they intend to do it when Americans

are focused on the election. When its Kerry v. Bush.

I never said he's waiting till after the election.

Don't believe anything from Wilson or Gary Hart. Ignore them. Bush did.

[JackRiddler]

27. you THINK they INTEND...

how many times a sucker do you want to be?

Seriously, these demands should be raised by us to ALL of the candidates. There shouldn't be any special treatment for anyone who we THINK is INTENDING when the time is right. No.

[blm]

28. Then why assemble a team steeped in those very controversies?

You think Kerry doesn't want to prove his 1997 analysis about terrorism and its funding and its threat to the US is TRUE in front of the American people.

Kerry is the ONLY candidate who assembled a team proficient in this area. The ONLY one. What does he intend to do with it?

[JohnKleeb]

18. it was actually in an article

Allow me to get it, so I dont get called a liar or flamed.
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,464429,00.html
"Such sentiments have been misinterpreted by assorted Beltway savants as a leftward lurch by Democratic Party activists; it seems more a reaction to the rightward lurch of the Republicans. Dean, who has been mischaracterized as the reincarnation of George McGovern, is certainly no traditional liberal or even a traditional dove. "I told the peace people not to fall in love with me," he told me over breakfast in Manchester, N.H., last week. He said he had opposed Vietnam, but he had supported the first Gulf War, the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo, and the war in Afghanistan. In the 1980s he had "mixed feelings" about Ronald Reagan's support for the contras in Nicaragua and opposed a unilateral nuclear freeze. "I'm not a pacifist. I believe there are times when pre-emptive force is justified, but there has to be an immediate threat, and there just wasn't in this case." Honestly what does he mean by the "peace people" I am a peace person :D I suppose. Kind of an odd thing to say IMO thats just me. This is old news to me, being that I found out in the summer.

[blm]

23. Thank you, again.

But, no doubt the Dean apologists will fall all over themselves that it shows how brilliant and thoughtful Dean is that he was so willing to give Reagan and Bush some benefit of the doubt on IranContra.

Geez....IranContra is a BIG part of the whole course that led to 9-11 and this Iraq war. And so many here want to put Dean and his "mixed feelings" in the driver's seat for the most important job of the next decade.

[Eloriel]

68. Uh, you're misquoting

And misrepresenting.

Surprise, surprise, what's new?

He didn't say he had mixed feelings about "IranContra," he said he had mixed feelings about Reagan's intervention. They are definitely related, but Dean limited his remark to the military aspect and that does NOT include the scandal called "IranContra."

I'm sure as hell JohnKleeb had the good sense to actually post the quote again.

Eloriel

[blm]

73. HAHAH....spin away. Dean the straightshooter leaves another quote

up for interpretation. Howard "Chance" Dean sure has alot of people willing to cover up for him no matter what he says.

Funny...why does a straight shooter never speak straight?

Q)Are you DLC?

A)I read their papers....

Honest A) I was DLC until my term as governor was up.

[Octafish]

47. Sen. Kerry said he'd start by appointing an honest AG.

Thank you for an excellent analysis of the thread's content, JackRiddler. Thanks also pointing out some important points about what Sen. Kerry knows about the BFEE and the Skull & Bones angles.

Knowing what we do about Bush's roles in 9-11, about the ENRON Energy Policy, the stolen elections, the connections to bin Laden, etc., you can see my concern for getting Kerry nominated and elected. And that's why I'm so steamed to see him slimed. Going by the way the corporate press has brought out their heavy hitters to "Gore" the guy, by and large, it seems someone is mighty scared of what Sen. Kerry might have to say and do as President.

(As I also indicated above) Sen. Kerry said he would appoint an honest Attorney General, "One so different from John Ashcroft, it will make your head spin." An honest AG, in my understanding of Kerry's philosophy, would be one in the mold of Robert F. Kennedy.

The first names that comes to mind for investigation and prosecution would be that of George Bush Jr. and Richard Cheney. These would be followed next by Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, and Oliver North. There are a whole bunch more listed up and down DU.

How do I know Kerry can be trusted to do so? I've heard the fellow and seen him close-up (like Smirk lookin' in Putin's soul). For an unbiased view, read what Jonathan Vankin wrote:

EXCERPT:

… To comprehend the government’s role in cocaine traffic, (Manuel) Noriega is useful as a kind of focal point. He was on the payroll of the CIA at the same time he worked for the Medellin Cartel for four million dollars per month. The Medellin Cartel is the Columbian cocaine syndicate, responsible for most of the cocaine that enters the U.S.A.

Noriega was also connected to George Bush (Senior), and through Bush to Oliver North. They used Noriega as a conduit for getting arms to the contras.

Bush, North, and other government insiders at the CIA and the National Security Council (which under Reagan got heavily into covert operations) most likely knew about Noriega’s involvement with drugs. Revelations about Noriega, and about direct contra and CIA involvement with cocaine smuggling, found their way into public record via a subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, chaired by John Kerry.

In 1986, Senator Kerry received information that the Costa Rican branch of a Miami-based shrimp company Ocean Hunter, widely regarded as a drug-running front, had received checks for more than $200,000 dollars from the U.S. government. The money was part of the “humanitarian aid” allocated for the contras by Congress. Wondering why the cash was channeled to this shrimp-and-dope outfit, Kerry went to the FBI asking for an inquiry. Instead, the FBI investigated Kerry himself.

SNIP…

But wait, it gets better!

According to the FBI reports, North asked the FBI to investigate Kerry, to find links between the Massachusetts senator and the Nicaraguan Sandinista government. The investigation was reportedly initiated by a crack FBI counterintelligence group usually employed to track foreign agents in the United States.

SOURCE: Jonathan Vankin. Conspiracies, Cover-Ups and Crimes: Political Manipulation and Mind Control in America, Paragon House, New York, pp. 163–164 (1991):

[Eloriel]

69. One problem

How do I know Kerry can be trusted to do so? I've heard the fellow and seen him close-up (like Smirk lookin' in Putin's soul). For an unbiased view, read what Jonathan Vankin wrote

That's about what Kerry DID (past tense), and not a whimper about what he WOULD do.

You are going to be one disappointed dude, should Kerry get the nomination and win. Big time. He has absolutely no interest in pursuing this stuff further. If he did, he surely wouldn't have praised Bush as ... what were those glowing compliments? Something like "means to do well," or something similar. (Someone help me out here.)

Besides, he's the "Get Over It" guy. Remember? If that's his sentiment about a baldly stolen national election, he sure as hell won't go digging into the way long ago past.

You are dreaming.

Eloriel

[Octafish]

77. I seldom dream. Here's what I know about Dean's AG...

Here's some background on Ho-Ho's less than Liberal views of Justice, Vermont style:

Howard Dean's Constitutional Hang-Up
Dean Would Rather Execute an Innocent Man, Than Let a Guilty One Walk Free
By JOSH FRANK
CounterPunch

EXCERPT...

Regarding one case where citizen reporter Scott Huminski was barred from Vermont courts, a DC lawyer stated in an interview with Eugenia Harris from the First Amendment Center that, "the real heart of the issue is whether local government officials can unilaterally silence speech and exert arbitrary power over their citizens." Seems Howard Dean stuck by his word and appointed judges that care little about real "justice." And he thinks he's qualified to appoint justices at the federal level?

These are not the only examples of Howard Dean's intentions to subdue the Bill of Rights. Shortly after the September 11th attacks Dean was quoted in the Rutland Herald claiming that the United States needs a "re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties."

Later when asked if he thought the Bill of Rights needed to be altered he said, "I think it is unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results from that freedom."

So according to Dean since terrorists are after our sought after freedoms, we might consider scathing back certain liberties in order to decrease the threat of future strikes. John Ashcroft must be pleased.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank08122003.html

PS: Kerry has mentioned the Stolen Election. His "get over it" statement referred to people who continued to beef about it three years later. Kerry thought their energies would be best spent on kicking the Little Turd back to Crawford (my phrase, his sentiments).

[Octafish]

44. Sure, I've said Kerry is the best at bringing down the BFEE.

What I'm asking for is what would Dean do? No offense, ibegurpard, but because I've never heard Dean say or do otherwise, I have to assume it would be BFEE business as usual in a Dean Administration.

[Duder]

16. Here's Bartcop's answer...

[Octafish]

48. May it become reality...

... if Dean becomes President.

And if Dean becomes the nominee, I'll do all I can to see that he becomes President.

[ramblin_dave]

21. Dean would have to be careful

Most Americans don't even know what BFEE is all about. I don't mean the just the acronym, I mean even the concept that the Bush family is some kind of crime organization. Any candidate putting forth that idea would be shouted down as a loony. The rebel flag issue would be minor in comparison to the hyperventilating right wing and media reaction to this.

[blm]

30. Cheney called Kerry a "conspiracy theory nut" when he was uncovering

IranContra. The newsrooms are still filled with BFEE generated memes against Kerry. They've become 'conventional wisdom.'

[janx]

22. Octafish, what a lot of people don't realize yet is that Dean

is Chimpy's real nemesis. While Chimp comes from an old American family and Dean does too, Dean's family contrasts sharply (as does his brain and his priorities) with Chimpy's.

There are similarities in their backgrounds (I think Time or Newsweek actually compared the two this way), but what Dean has done with his background as opposed to what the Chimps has done...in a nutshell, there's no question when it comes to hard work and integrity.

I notice this because I too have ancestors who go way back, although I certainly didn't enjoy the monied priviledge to the degree that Chimpy and Dean did, ever. But I know the culture of it a bit, and if you really want to know, Dean makes Chimpy look like the sleaze that he really is. Dean is standing against that.

It's not what you are given, it's what you do with it. Dean exemplifies that better than any--bar none--public figure I've ever been aware of. Chimpy does NOT represent the American way. He doesn't represent hard work, civil rights, fiscal responsibility, care for his fellow human beings, or anything along those lines.

Dean will make mincemeat of Chimpy and Chimpy's old money family...because in fact, Dean's family goes back farther than Chimpy's does, and Dean has not abused that position the way Chimpy has. He has instead chosen to contribute to society and to his fellow human beings. His wife isn't exactly a pauper either, and she apparently shares his conviction about such things. She is lovely and hard working.

This is the way I look at it. The two are diametrically opposed in so many ways. The American people will see this should he get the nomination. It will be very clear: a governor from the tiny state of Vermont will turn the BFEE on its head. Watch and enjoy!

[blm]

24. Did he root out any corruption in Vermont?

Was that something he was interested in?

[janx]

25. He pissed of Vermonters on both the left and the right in

Vermont. You know this. I know you can't stand the guy because of his "Bush light" comments, blm, but that's the way it is. He did that to get things going, and I'm glad he did. In retrospect, he's right, because he has shown democracy in action in historic proportions.

He'll always piss some people off--on both sides.

It's probably time for you to stop the Dean bashing. Can you do that? I think you can.

[blm]

26. I asked a question. Did he go after corruption in Vermont?

That would be a good indicator that he would do so for real in the White House.

Someone who had 'mixed feelings' about IranContra doesn't sound too appalled by the ultimate corruption it uncovered.

[Scott Lee]

32. What corruption in Vermont?

Vermont is surprisingly corruption free. I lived there for most of my teenage years and I can tell you I've never seen such a happy go lucky place full of diverse people.

And Dean was the governor of such a ShangriLa. He must have done a superb job.

[janx]

71. What corruption?

?

[mzmolly]

31. How much corruption is there in Vermont, and can you be more specific?

:)

[KittyWampus]

37. EXACTLY! Dean Would Be Clueless

As a backwater Governor from Vermont he wouldn't have a prayer of dealing with any of the BFEE crap :D

Further, Dean already said he wouldn't cut Pentagon funding... he's p perfectly happy with giving billions for useless weapons systems.

Dean's going to be labelled "weak on defense" and he will be unable to deal with the hawks effectively.

[Guaranteed]

46. He's ALREADY thinking about it.

He knows what he's getting into.

This guy's awesome.

Why else would he say Bob Graham's on his short list for VP? (see my posts below)

[Octafish]

57. You're right. Dean would be labelled "Weak on Defense" by Rove...

... and that would be IT for Election 2004. Then, many of the same people who now think Dean's stuff don't stink will begin howling for the next great centrist, libertarian, or what-not to take on Jebthro in 2008. Better clobber the BFEE now.

[Scott Lee]

63. So let me get this straight...

Dean successfully and popularly governs a virtually uncorrupt state for many years, and you dismiss him as unable to handle the corruption of the BFEE - whose obscene acts are already known to everybody and their dog?

I guess logic isn't your strong suit.

[RetroLounge]

52. What Corruption in Vermont?

Someone selling illegal ski-lift tickets?

What?

Do you know something or just spewing?

[blm]

62. If his supporters are so certain he'll go after Bush legally, and

expose the BFEE, then all I'm asking is will you please provide any indicators at all that he has a streak in him that promotes these type of investigations.

The fact that he wouldn't stand against Reagan-Bush on IranContra and says he has "mixed feelings" about it indicates to me that his rightwing bent is a dominant part of his core being.

[Guaranteed]

36. Step 1: Tap Bob Graham as his VP.

Step 2: Make some friends at the CIA.

Step 3: Kick some ass.

[Octafish]

40. Good thinking. But to be truly effective, a President ...

... shouldn't need to get others to do his thinking. In fact, the best Presidents have been the smartest ones in the Cabinet Room. He or she also should be able to lead the important departments and agencies of government, from national security and Defense to the EPA and Office of Management and Budget.

I agree wholeheartedly: Dean would be well-served by having pals in the CIA and having an intelligent VP Bob Graham at his elbow. Bob Graham, however, wouldn't need either.

[Guaranteed]

41. I'm not sure it's so much Bob's intelligent mind

as his "intelligent" friends, if you get my drift....

Dean, as an outsider, needs connections more than anything....he's a smart co-ordinator (obviously) once he gets his feelers out there.

[MODemocrat]

39. He'll have no problem handling the BFEE

What will the others do? Howard Dean is not afraid to take them on;
he's as savvy as the next one.

[Guaranteed]

42. He's got the savvy

however, he needs more muscle. He certainly does have the opportunity to find it, though....it's out there- it just needs some co-ordination, and some courage.

[blm]

64. What makes you think so?

Is there anything in his record where any investigations were ordered by him? I haven't heard if there is, so maybe someone can let us all know.

I do wonder why he wouldn't stand against Reagan and Bush on IranContra, though. That was clearly the most subversive act against the Constitution of the last century.

[drfemoe]

45. I don't for a minute believe you intend to keep your promise

I've visisted all the candidates sites to research what they have to offer. Have you?

I really think this is just a tactic to keep your attacks going .. but I don't mind responding for the general benefit of other readers.

We don't have to wait and wonder what Dean will do about the issues of corruption .. he is already 'shining the spotlight' on the cockroaches (paraphrase).

Here's a starter ..
The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?
PDF file, 348K
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

Uranium and Niger: Pattern of Deceit
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7482&news_iv_ctrl=1381
--snip--
Dean to President Bush: 'It's Time for the Truth'
"These questions are, however, only one piece of a far broader practice by this administration of misleading the American people and breaching the fundamental trust that they have placed in their elected leadership. This practice goes far beyond misleading the country and the world about the reasons for taking us to war in Iraq, this practice extends into the state of the nation's economy, its environment, its schools and beyond.
"Mr. President, today I call on you to level with the American people not just about the situation in Iraq but about the true intentions behind the agenda your Administration is pursuing:
· "You claimed that your tax cuts would create jobs. Instead we have three million fewer jobs in our economy than when you took office.
· "You claimed that we would only run deficits that were small and temporary. Instead, we now face deficits in excess of $455 billion--the largest in history--and red ink as far as the eye can see.
· "You claimed that your tax cuts would strengthen and stimulate the economy. Instead, we have record numbers of personal bankruptcies, home foreclosures, and an unemployment rate that is the highest in 9 years.
· "You claimed that the deficits were caused by the costs of 9/11, the war on terror, and homeland security. In fact, the cost of your tax cuts is three times the amount of those items--and your deficit forecasts do not even include the costs of the Iraq war.
· "You claimed that your education program would live up to its name and that No Child would be Left Behind. Instead, school districts all across the country, including in your home state of Texas, are dumbing down their tests to ensure that their schools are not labeled as needing improvement. No Child Left Behind turns out to be a huge unfunded mandate on local governments that now must raise property taxes or find other sources of revenue to meet their legal obligations under the Act.
· "You named your environmental initiatives 'Clear Skies' and 'Healthy Forests' when the truth is that Clear Skies allows more pollutants into the air and Healthy Forests is little more than a bill to reward the logging industry.
· "You claimed that national and community service was central to your vision for the country. Instead, you have sat idly by while membership in the program is threatened to be cut by 80 program.
· "And you visited soldiers wounded in Afghanistan on January 17th and had the audacity to promise to 'provide the best care for anybody who's willing to put their life in harm's way' when the previous day your Department of Veteran's Affairs cut off health care access to 164,000 veterans.
"Mr. President, it is time for the truth. It is time for the truth on Iraq but, more importantly, it is time to level with the American people on the true intentions of your administration. It is time to end the empty rhetoric and false promises. The issues at stake are too serious: the lives of our soldiers; the livelihood of our families; the health of our children; the future of our world.
--snip--

He isn't waiting til the general election .. or some unforseen future date to ask questions. It is NOW.

[Octafish]

53. Thank you for your reply. You don't know me, but I do keep my word.

First, regarding your question: No, I have not visited all the candidates' websites. I prefer to read their positions as stated through newspaper and magazine interviews, as well as in live speeches if possible, or pre-recorded speeches, broadcast on television and radio, and on the Internet.

Second: no my post was not "a tactic to keep (my) attacks going." I said I'd stop if someone answered my question. So far, no one has. The information from the web site is much appreciated, however.

Third: Shining the spotlight on cockroaches is a lot different than prosecuting criminality and treason. If you've followed my criticisms of the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker you'd know that I think he's talked a lot, but actually done very little in the way of being a real Democrat, let alone going after the Bush Organized Crime Family. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:


Who's the Real Howard Dean?

As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business

Business Week

Howard Dean has fought his way to the front of the Democratic pack jostling for the 2004 Presidential nomination partly because he has won the hearts of so many liberals with his antiwar rhetoric and shoot-from-the-lip style. But who is the real Howard Dean? Is he the left-of-center insurgent being portrayed in the press or the business-friendly fiscal conservative and pragmatic moderate who governed Vermont for 11 years?

Many who worked with Dean are astonished at his current image and comparisons to liberal icons such as George McGovern. "The Howard Dean you are seeing on the national scene is not the Dean that we saw around here for the last decade," says
John McClaughry, president of the Ethan Allen Institute, a conservative Vermont think tank. "He's moved sharply left."

Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing – were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean. "He was not a left-wing wacko," says Bill Stenger, a Republican and president of Jay Peak Resort, who says he supported Dean because of his "fiscally responsible, socially conscious policies."

Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the
project.

CONTINUED...

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

[drfemoe]

56. If you want Dean to come out and say

I am going after the Bush Organized Crime Family

.. I hope and pray to goddess that never happens.

That explosion would dwarf the tiny stir created by Clark's alleged belief in time travel.

It would be a HUGE mistake.

As some of the others have suggested, why don't you pose that question to your candidate? See if he would like to take 'em on with the full frontal you are so anxious to see Dean execute?

[Octafish]

58. Agree. Saying that would cost him the middle and beyond.

My question was what would Dean do to bring the BFEE to justice. I'm sorry if it created the impression he was to follow some set of pre-conditions set by me.

Regarding Sen. Kerry. Yes, I have let the campaign know my thoughts about the BFEE. If played the wrong way, it would do more than destroy JK's campaign. Played publicly the right way, it could save the country.

Finally, speaking of the great beyond: I, too, am a follower of James Marshall Hendrix. I listened to "Message of Love" and "Machine Gun" with many a good person. You may enjoy an import called "Loose Ends" where he tries to help Buddy Miles find the right tempo. Thanks for reminding me!

[drfemoe]

59. I'll tell you what we can do

... we can pick an issue that relates to a troubling situation we have with the current residency ... I think there are plenty ...
You can post a press release or statement, whatever from Kerry addressing that issue ..
and I will see if I can find Gov. Dean's comment on the issue.

and vice versa of course .. it would be a referenced compilation of both candidates' positions and statements challenging the current status quo. .. Flameless of course.

I'm a little delirious from staying up too late .. I may regret this in the morning . lol ..

[Eloriel]

70. So disingenuous

I've read through this entire thread now, and responded a couple of times. I've been particularly interested in your responses. If you honestly think that your original post was anything but an opportunity to attack Dean continuously (and hypocritically, as I've already pointed out), then you're kidding yourself.

drfemoe is absolutely correct, and the proof is in all your responses on this thread -- you know, the ones making additional charges about Dean.

Eloriel

[Octafish]

74. Nothing disingenuous about it. Dean won't do a thing about the BFEE.

Eloriel, my responses are to the questions posters raised in responding to my original post. I did not bring anything else into the discussion that wasn't raised in the responses. You and the first respondent, for example, brought up Kerry. Nor have I made anything up about Dean. Even the most rabid Deanieweenie can see that.

What’s even more disturbing is that the posts you refer to as hypocritical I believe are the ones referring to Dean’s positions. It seems, in bringing these up, I cast light on some things that don't at all jibe with Dean's image as the perfect candidate his supporters want to portray.

The thing is, my posts on this thread are based on Dean’s record. I’d probably post more, but he ordered his gubernatorial records sealed for 10 years. He said he did so because he didn’t want anything turned up that could be used against him if he ran for higher office.

Gee. What could be that nasty for the squeaky clean guy? I know you know the story because you once accused me of making it up and I had to post the links, but here’s the story and a link for those who may be hearing about it for the first time:


Part of Dean's records sealed in state archives

John Dillon
MONTPELIER, VT (2003-01-14)

(Host) Many of the records from the 11 years Howard Dean was governor of Vermont will be kept secret, at least for now. Shortly before he left the governor's job, Dean negotiated a deal that seals his sensitive papers for 10 years. Records from the two previous administrations were closed for just six years. Dean is running for president, and he says he wanted the records closed because of political considerations.

VPR's John Dillon reports:

SNIP…

(Dillon) Stacked in brown cardboard boxes alongside the files of Governors Richard Snelling and Madeleine Kunin are the latest gubernatorial papers. These were turned over last week by outgoing Governor Howard Dean. The files that Dean decided should not be released immediately will be kept secret until January 2013. The 10-year time lock is longer than the six years agreed to by Kunin and Snelling.

Dean, who is running for president, told reporters recently why he wanted the files closed for four more years:

(Dean) "Well, there are future political considerations. We didn't want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor."

CONTINUED…(and you can hear the above)…

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/vpr/news/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=441887

Furthermore, rather than answer the question, many of Dean's supporters used this as an opportunity to knock me for asking about Dean. Why don't his supporters answer the question about what Dean would do to knock down the BFEE? They can't answer the question because Howard Dean doesn't have a clue. And that was the point.

[drfemoe]

78. I rescind my offer

I thought you wanted to actually talk about strategies for defending ourselves against the takeover of our country by fanatical policies which threaten the very constitution (ideas) on which our BOR (freedoms) rest.

The best you've got are Howard Dean's sealed governor records? Very old news. Dean gets criticized a lot for 'flip-flopping' but it is the sign of mental health when one can reasess situations and make better choices. Don't we wish someone in hell would do that NOW?

All governors seal their records when they leave office .. routine. Oh.. . for 10 years!! . :wow: If you think every Dean supporter doesn't already know all about this monumental, decision making piece of information, I'm afraid you are wrong.

I see now that you don't want to talk about ideas on how we are going to get our freedoms back; because you would rather focus on a boogy man you call the bfee. Why talk about issues that actually mean something, when you can demand a super-hero (wearing a hunting vest maybe) who is coming to *punch* *zam* *zowie* *smash* the big bad bfee.

This is sadly John Kerry's approach. Which interview (s?) was it where the interviewer actually had to 'politely' ask Kerry to stop talking about Dean and talk about Kerry. And the dem debate: "Kerry tell us about your health care plan." Kerry: "Let me tell you about Howard Dean's health care plan." .. Now if Kerry wants to support Howard, I am sure he would be welcomed.

But as of yet, I see nothing coming from Kerry other than obsessive focus on Howard Dean. So I mistook your interest. I don't have time to listen to Kerry carp about Dean. If that's what you have in mind, life is too short.
la bonne vie

[Octafish]

82. Why so sensitive? Previous Vermont governors sealed them for SIX years.

Dean wanted them sealed for 20, orginally. The state compromised and gave him 10, although previous governors only had them sealed for 6. Facts are stubborn, things.

[knowledgeispower]

99. Could it be that Dean sealed his records BECAUSE of the BFEE?

As in he knew that anything he ever did would be spun against him by this band of thieves? Thus sealing his records was the first step in taking on the BFEE, which is the very thing you want to see proof of.

Shit I don't know. Maybe that isn't why he sealed his records. But you've got to admit its a legitimate theory.

[blm]

104. Probably because he supported the BFEE goal of deregulating electricity.

And wouldn't want his correspondence with the energy companies who he also supported on Yucca Mt. revealed to the public.

[blm]

65. We know Kerry will take them on, and the team he's forming

shows his intent to back them into a corner. It's in his entire record, too.

Dean supporters seem so certain about his sweeping reform of DC, but what makes them so certain? When he was in Vermont the Dems criticized him for letting the prior GOP governor's people stay in their positions, and even kept them after his own election. That doesn't tell me he's sincere about clearing out GOP en masse or their policies.

[knowledgeispower]

101. What is this "team"?

You keep referring to it BLM, but you haven't given a link or anything so I haven't the foggiest clue what you are talking about.

And how do you answer questions about the IWR? I don't want to seem like diverting the question, but if you are SO sure that Kerry is THE ONE to out the BFEE, why the hell did he vote in favor of what was SO OBVIOUSLY another evil BFEE scheme??? Answer me that.

[blm]

103. Because he supported it in 98 with Clinton and even helped plan it.

So it wasn't as many think, a political equation. Not in 98 and not in 2002.

The team I have mnentioned and were linked when they came on board, are Rand Beers, William Perry, Gary Hart and Joe Wilson. There are other military and intel guys who will not come out publically due to their positions but are there.

[frustrated_lefty]

60. Two thoughts come to my mind.

1) He focuses on making sure everyone under the age of 21 has medical insurance. This contrasts with ShrubCo, which does everything it can to protect pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits, while so many are uninsured.

2) He talks about easing embargos on Cuba, while Shrub hardens embargos but still plays friends with Otto Reich and other known terrorists.

I'll probably reply again with a lengthier response, but this is what occurs to me right off the top of my head.

[Octafish]

75. Thanks, frustrated_lefty! Both are noble goals.

It is vital that all Americans have access to quality medical care. There is no firmer believer in that than I. And we can create greater change in Cuba by being friends with the Cuban people than by being the mortal enemies of Castro.

What's my concern is that there is an evil presence in the government of the United States. It is the influence of hidden powers, billions and perhaps trillions of stolen dollars, and secret influence. This secret cabal we refer to as the Bush Family Evil Empire, for lack of a better term. To better enable the public to follow the discussion, I call them the Bush Organized Crime Family.

What do you think Dean will do to bust them? What would you like to see him do?

[birdman]

88. You mean Dean might concentrate on jobs and healthcare

and not pursue conspiracy theories ?????

Well, that settles it. I'm for LaRouche.


I ask you. What's Dean done about the missing strawberries?

[Octafish]

110. No conspiracy theory. Conspiracy evidence, though.

Doubt what I am saying or not, I don't care which.

Remember Selection 2000? Gore got more votes overall and in Florida. Didn't matter. Bush is (p)resident.

Remember ENRON Energy policy? Cheney met in the White House basement with Kenny Lay and his price-fixers on the federal Commodity Futures Trading Commission, long serviced by Wendy Gramm and hubby Phil.

Remember 9-11? Bush was briefed beforehand, yet he didn't do a damn thing to stop bin Laden, warn the airlines, or protect the American people. Ask John Ashcroft, who stopped flying commercial in July 2001.

No conspiracy theory. Just conspiracy fact.

BTW: If Dean concentrates on the economy, great. Should he be the nominee, he will lose the election, hands-down. Then again, that's what a lot of people want.

[Cleita]

76. Question before I answer.

Why are you asking this about Dean? I haven't heard any of the other candidates address this either in any confrontational manner. Do you know something we don't?

[drfemoe]

80. It's the Evil Empire

anything to get the focus off the real issues .. challenge Dean with a boogy man. .. They want to see him change into his spider man suit right before their very eyes to prove he is the real super hero.

You've seen the **s* gi joe dolls, right? Do you really want to see a Kerry doll? (Or does he have one already?)

[Octafish]

81. No, I don't have a GI Joe doll. Neither does Dean.

He got out of the draft for a "bad back" by showing up for his enlistment physical with a note from his orthopedist and an X-ray from his radiologist. Funny how fast his back healed, as he was able to spend 80 days that winter in Vale, Colorado, skiing.

[drfemoe]

94. During "your" vn service

how many times did you crap your drawers because you were so scared?

How many suicides did you witness?

How many fraggings did you see? Hear about?

How much agent orange showered down on you and covered your body and infiltrated your lungs?

And what does any of that have to do with being qualified to serve as President of the United States?

[Octafish]

108. I have three friends who lost their brothers in Vietnam.

I never met them, but I do know theirs was an irreplaceable loss.

Three people in my family served there. One was critically wounded and wore a metal plate in his head. He died two years ago.

Regarding my service: I was in Junior ROTC at an Honor high school military academy.

FYI: I was against the war.

One last thing: What the fuck is up with your attitude? I didn't play a one-up one-down game with your psyche, did I. Sorry if you feel that way. I'm a Democrat.

[drfemoe]

114. I personally know lots

of men who went through these things and much much worse.

They were/are all 'good' men who survived a horror. You might find some vets on here, and I guess Kerry would be one .. but none of the ones I know would infer Howard Dean is a coward because he didn't go through the same thing. And unless you are an orthopedic specialist, I guess you are in no position to judge whether skiing is an appropriate activity for his condition.


You're the one who brought up draft dodging.
Please don't excuse me for upsetting your preconceived idea of what response your accusations might evoke.

[deutsey]

83. The only cure for what ails our democracy

is more democracy.

That's not my quote, but it speaks to the core strength of Dean's campaign: he's helping to revitalize our democracy. Say what you will about Dean, disagree with his positions, dig up all the dirt you want on him (not you, Octafish, but "you" in general), I've seen how Dean's campaign is energizing disgruntled Dems like me and bringing in people who never cared much about politics. And he's rousing many of the stalwarts in the Democratic Party.

As I say, as a Dean Meetup host, I'm seeing this with my own eyes every day. I believe Dean's campaign has lit a spark that is igniting such a blazing, renewed enthusiasm for democracy in this country that it will push back the darkness of the BFEE.

At least I'm hoping, anyway. And that's a lot more than the other candidates do for me.

[Octafish]

90. I appreciate your thoughtful reply, Big E.

Your idea is the one that comes closest to answering my question. You know that I want the Democrats to win in 2005 if we the so-and-sos in power aren't impeached before then. If Dr. Dean is the nominee, I will do all I can to serve him and our party and our country.

As for the BFEE: I'd like to lead the Citizen's Grand Jury.

[blm]

100. So did Perot in 92.

Dean is Perot squared. Both centrists running as populists. NEW voters were so excited.

Let's IGNORE the way people ACTUALLY govern.

[deutsey]

107. Wrong

Perot appealed mostly to libertarians and disgruntled conservatives, imo. Dean, on the other hand, appeals to anti-war types, disgruntled Dems, Dem faithful, centrists and lefties with a dash of moderate Republican support.

[blm]

111. I was speaking to the "new" voters, the "disaffected" voters

who never bothered before. That's what we are being told everyday here by the Dean team....but, when I point out that Perot attracted that same type, you tell me I'm wrong. Go figure.

[drfemoe]

116. Only voted party

one time.. my first vote in 1972 for Richad Nixon. I had just turned 18, and all I knew was my family was 'republican'.

That's the last time I voted for a 'party'.

I really like Perot and you could have classified me as a MAJORLY disgruntled conservative at the time. I voted for Clinton because I could not bear gsr and knew Perot could not take the game. There were probably a lot of folks like me.

I voted once in a primary, the rep primary against gsr. (I liked Jack Kemp) ..

This season you can classify me a disenfranchised voter because I haven't voted since 1992. Even though I knew Gore would not win in my state, I really believed he had a very good chance of winning. (ahem) I will be voting in the dem primary this year, and whatever we have to do to make caucus.

I think Dean's camp is composed of all kinds of voters and x-voters and re-tread voters and lots of people who have never been involved in political action. They actually propel the campaign and candidate.

Perot had a lot of 'followers'. And I got a kick out of his 30 minute special (self-financed) 'commercials' with his charts and all like he was at a board meeting. He really is an intelligent bussinessman, and at that time in history we needed someone who could keep the books straight .. history repeats.

Dean does have sound fiscal values and experience. But his campaign is completely different from Perot's. If the internet had been a major player in 1992, something different might have happened. We don't know.

We know that everything that is happening this time is different.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

86. Given Dean' reluctance to pursue justice in one case

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to grow a spine:

Brattleboro Police murder defenseless man

Dean sees no need for special prosecutor

The bottom line is he took the AG (his closest political friend in Vt.) at his word. Despite the efforts of the victim's friends and family to persuade first the AG and then Dean to investigate. Everyone defended the cops from the city on up to the state- eveyone who wasn't there.
Dean showed no courage here.
Dean is business as usual.

[Scott Lee]

91. So Dean makes an executive decision and you say....

It's "business as usual"?

Well I sure as hell HOPE it's business as usual, to be deciding on whether an AG can unbiasedly handle a case or a special prosecutor be appointed! Otherwise, Dean wouldn't be doing his job, would he?

It sounds like the core of your argument is that Dean made a decision you didn't like. Well boo friggin hoo. That doesn't mean that you're "right".

[NewYorkerfromMass]

95. Dean made a decision the murdered man's friends didn't like

Witness testimony contrary to the official police verdict (and there was a LOT of it) was ignored or played down. Nobody was interested in real justice here- including the AG and Dean. It was all about protecting the rights of cops to gun down people they choose to. But Dean likes guns I hear.

[Scott Lee]

113. Pure speculation on your part.

But that seems to be what drives Deanophobes these days; speculation, dissembling nonsense, innuendo, scary story.

Can you cite a single link to one shred of evidence that supports your bizarre contention that Dean decided against a special prosecutor because he just likes the idea of cops shooting people?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

115. I didn't say he likes the idea

just that he would apparently prefer to allow them the right to do it when they choose. Even when they are wrong. And if you read the witness testimony here they were clearly wrong.

[drfemoe]

92. Where's the court ruling?

Woodward?s family, his parents and sister, Paul and Joanne Woodward and Jill Woodward DeBrady, all of Connecticut, filed suit against the town and the two officers on Monday, claiming Woodward?s civil rights were violated and that the town failed to adequately train and supervise the two officers.

....
I'm glad you posted this because the first time I read this I thought the police were pursuing this guy when he ran into the church .. but no . he just barges in with a knife. He obviously had mental issues .. as do those who think this proves something sinister about Howard Dean.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

106. something sinister about Howard Dean?

No- just a question of his sense of justice- that he acted out of political expedience rather than true concern for justice. It's easy to turn the other way and say there's no issue here. But it was not easy for the people who were actually there to turn away and say the cops did their job properly- unless you believe their job is to kill innocent people.
But I guess I have a mental issue.

[birdman]

87. Gasp ! What's Dean going to do about this ?

[Octafish]

89. I didn't know Hitler had been cloned. Hitler's ideas are still around.

Such as one race being superior to another and one party being supreme. That's so familiar, unfortunately.

[knowledgeispower]

102. Hitlerites realized genocide wasn't politically viable

That is the only difference.

[boilerbabe]

96. I must be a day late, the lunar eclipse was the other night..

But I am a Dean supporter, and I can't speak for him, but do know that he would get rid of any Bush-related person, influence, or even aroma (ok, I would call it STENCH) of the current unelected president and his administration.

Dean is totally against any special interest group having an influence on how policy should go, he has recently rejected the matching funds allocation, which would have hamstringed him against Bush's formidable war-chest....His decision was after an internet and phone query of supporters. He left it up to us to sway his decision. And so it is up to us "little people" to make sure he has what he needs to get his message out. And his message is worth the effort. I have not been involved in a political campaign for at least 23 yrs. Now is the time to make the change,and I really do think that Howard Dean can effect that change.

His message is not just anti-Bush, he actually has some strategies for dealing with the mess this country is in. Check out his website (yes, I know you will only get one side of the story that way, but it's a start...) At least you will see where he stands on most of the issues. He doesn't equivocate, which is a good thing. Even if I didn't agree with him on something, at least I know where he's at.

There are many worthy candidates coming from the Democratic side, but to me, Howard Dean is the most viable candidate we have.

Glad you are questioning things, we all need to do that!!!

XXXOOO

[Octafish]

109. Hiya, boilerbabe! Like the 'tude!

There is a lot of common ground. I want my country back. I think the BFEE stole it on November 22, 1963.