ABC News now--Holbrooke pouring it on Richard Perle

[SouthernDaisy]

Great show. Must read transcript when it's up.

Showed clip of Cheney giving reasons for not going into Baghdad 10 yrs. ago.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Holbrooke attacking Perle?

Sounds like the circular firing squad has formed.

[11cents]

2. Why would you say that?

Holbrooke has served only in Democratic administrations AFAIK and is very much a multilateralist.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. Oops. Yer' right.

Cerebral flatulance. Sorry. Drinking more coffee right now. ;-)

[Kolesar]

7. Holbrooke was in favor of removing Saddam last year (I recall)

Now he is (was, 20 min ago) disputing the methodology of getting allies to help America's occupation. In particular, Uberfuhrer Bush blew it when soliciting Turkey's help.

[realFedUp]

3. Welcome to DU SouthernDaisy

this really belongs in GD...so hold on...I'm
moving it. :-)

rfu, moderator

[SouthernDaisy]

6. Thanks so much.

I just discovered that ABC's This Week with Stephanopoulos does not post transcripts! You have to buy them ($20)!

[newyawker99]

19. Hi SouthernDaisy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[LittleApple81]

4. But Stephanopolous saved Perle. So much for getting to the bottom of the

issues.

[loudnclear]

34. Sstephenopolus is a worm.

His turning on Clinton did it for me. He's a spineless creep and a new shill for the RW cabal.

[QuidditchFan]

8. Agree that this is a must-see installment...

To see the lengths to which the Bush* hatchetmen went to ensure that war, not "diplomacy", were the only option is nauseating. I would like to see the families of the 3-hundred and something troops who have died have a chance to ask Perle about why this option wasn't pursued.

To turn political: The ugliness of this war, and American's growing resentment of our position of weakness (as reflected by any number of polls) really leaves candidates who voted for the war resolution, as opposed to Howard Dean, in a position of incredible weakness. I know that the nuances of the rationale of those who voted for the war resolution may be perfectly legitimate, but in the public's eye, Dean's position will likely be very favorable in 2004.

I say this as a Kerry supporter, by the way.

[Kolesar]

9. I think most voters don't even know who voted for the IWR

so its importance is diminished. My humble opinion.

[QuidditchFan]

10. Voters in New Hampshire and Iowa are profoundly aware...

of the Democratic candidates' stances on the war. (Key word here is stance, as the front-runner obviously couldn't vote).

Once again, I am a Kerry supporter, but Dean may be running away with this thing...

[blm]

11. Dean was not antiwar. he was SPUN as antiwar.

Dean was for use of force in a resolution as per IWR with the Biden-Lugar amendment. Same as Kerry wanted, but the B-L was dropped. War would have happened with B-L or not. To push Dean as antiwar and push Kerry as prowar is oversimplifying the entire issue.

[QuidditchFan]

12. blm, I understand and agree with you...

But I'm not sure that the majority of Democratic voters will look this closely...

[realFedUp]

13. Dean was against this invasion of Iraq

and came out early in saying it. Kerry, unfortunately
is a Senator and how he votes is public information.
We can split hairs here, and most of our Representatives
have in explaining their votes. A lot of us
aren't holding their votes exclusively against them,
understanding that this administration presented
a flawed case for invasion. I do think since many
of us could see, early on, the wrongness of invading
that we wonder about our Representatives personal
intelligence.

btw, I know you are an avid supporter of Kerry's but
sometimes you don't do your candidate any good by
posting so many anti-Dean posts.

[Jacobin]

18. thank you

[blm]

29. Dean spin should go uncontested?

Funny how Dean gets rewarded for attacks and his supporters rail against anyone who protests.

btw...centrists probably find my posts are cheerleading posts for Dean, because I am mostly correcting the impression that he is a liberal populist.

[Sideways]

14. OK All Good... But Did You See Kerry On Face The Nation?

Hey I hate Bob the Job slimey sycophant he is but did you see his interview with Kerry?

Kerry looked and sounded like a complete and utter ass. Kerry was pedantic and wobbly. He was trying to defend himself against Dean and his decision to opt out of matching funds but allowing for himself the same tactics (if they go his way).

Sheesh it was embarassing and quite pathetic.

Kerry was so NON PRESIDENTIAL it remided me of Bush. And it made my teeth hurt to listen to his whiney ramblings.

Kerry is really a fuckwittage. Bye Bye Tubby Kerry Toast.

If your children watch the Teletubbies you'll catch my drift.

[CWebster]

26. Ugh, he is the pits

He harps on about Dean opting out of an unfairly balanced system to compete but reserves the option for himself to compete.

Watching him is an excrutiatingly painful experience.

[homelandpunk]

31. Yes, Kerry was pitiful...despite the partisan agrgressiveness by Schieffer

Kerry should have been able to handle him....and he did not. Not at all. Pretty embarrassing. The fact that Kerry feels the need to put a flag lapel pin on to prove he is just another traumatized post-911 american takes him off my "to be taken seriously" list.

[0007]

32. They all have moments where they look foolish one moment..

and very presidential the next moment. One incident cannot be held against any candidate.

This is probably very confusing for folks that are trying to make up their mind.

[Jacobin]

17. This clap trap has got to stop. It is simply not the truth

Support your candidate, but good grief a little intellectual honesty would be helpful to the democratic party. And don't post some out of context BS about him believing that there were WMD. Believing that there were WMD and supporting the invasion (which he did NOT) are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. One does not lead to the other for cyin out loud

[blm]

30. Supporting it 30 days later is still supporting invasion.

And supporting Biden-Lugar was NOT standing against use of force.

Odd that you would clamor for intellectual honesty, while complaining that Dean's own words are only being taken out of context.

[baby_bear]

15. Well, here's a reminder...

The Senate vote was 77-23.
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

Grouped by Home State
Alabama: Sessions (R-AL), Yea Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Alaska: Murkowski (R-AK), Yea Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Arizona: Kyl (R-AZ), Yea McCain (R-AZ), Yea
Arkansas: Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
California: Boxer (D-CA), Nay Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Colorado: Allard (R-CO), Yea Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Connecticut: Dodd (D-CT), Yea Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Delaware: Biden (D-DE), Yea Carper (D-DE), Yea
Florida: Graham (D-FL), Nay Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Georgia: Cleland (D-GA), Yea Miller (D-GA), Yea
Hawaii: Akaka (D-HI), Nay Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Idaho: Craig (R-ID), Yea Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Illinois: Durbin (D-IL), Nay Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Indiana: Bayh (D-IN), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Iowa: Grassley (R-IA), Yea Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Kansas: Brownback (R-KS), Yea Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Kentucky: Bunning (R-KY), Yea McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Louisiana: Breaux (D-LA), Yea Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Maine: Collins (R-ME), Yea Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Maryland: Mikulski (D-MD), Nay Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Massachusetts: Kennedy (D-MA), Nay Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Michigan: Levin (D-MI), Nay Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Minnesota: Dayton (D-MN), Nay Wellstone (D-MN), Nay
Mississippi: Cochran (R-MS), Yea Lott (R-MS), Yea
Missouri: Bond (R-MO), Yea Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Montana: Baucus (D-MT), Yea Burns (R-MT), Yea
Nebraska: Hagel (R-NE), Yea Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nevada: Ensign (R-NV), Yea Reid (D-NV), Yea
New Hampshire: Gregg (R-NH), Yea Smith (R-NH), Yea
New Jersey: Corzine (D-NJ), Nay Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
New Mexico: Bingaman (D-NM), Nay Domenici (R-NM), Yea
New York: Clinton (D-NY), Yea Schumer (D-NY), Yea
North Carolina: Edwards (D-NC), Yea Helms (R-NC), Yea
North Dakota: Conrad (D-ND), Nay Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Ohio: DeWine (R-OH), Yea Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Oklahoma: Inhofe (R-OK), Yea Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Oregon: Smith (R-OR), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Nay
Pennsylvania: Santorum (R-PA), Yea Specter (R-PA), Yea
Rhode Island: Chafee (R-RI), Nay Reed (D-RI), Nay
South Carolina: Hollings (D-SC), Yea Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
South Dakota: Daschle (D-SD), Yea Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Tennessee: Frist (R-TN), Yea Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Texas: Gramm (R-TX), Yea Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Utah: Bennett (R-UT), Yea Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Vermont: Jeffords (I-VT), Nay Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Virginia: Allen (R-VA), Yea Warner (R-VA), Yea
Washington: Cantwell (D-WA), Yea Murray (D-WA), Nay
West Virginia: Byrd (D-WV), Nay Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Wisconsin: Feingold (D-WI), Nay Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Wyoming: Enzi (R-WY), Yea Thomas (R-WY), Yea

And that's just the Senate. The House vote, too long to post here, was 296-133, and can be found at
http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2002&rollnumber=455.

An interesting "historical" article about the resolution can be read at http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

<snip>

The resolution requires Bush to declare to Congress either before or within 48 hours after beginning military action that diplomatic efforts to enforce the U.N. resolutions have failed. Bush also must certify that action against Iraq would not hinder efforts to pursue the al Qaeda terrorist network that attacked New York and Washington last year. And it requires the administration to report to Congress on the progress of any war with Iraq every 60 days.

</snip>

Whatever happened to that?

<additional snip>

The measure passed the Senate and House by wider margins than the 1991 resolution that empowered the current president's father to go to war to expel Iraq from Kuwait. That measure passed 250-183 in the House and 52-47 in the Senate.

Iraq has denied having weapons of mass destruction and has offered to allow U.N. weapons inspectors to return for the first time since 1998. Deputy Prime Minister Abdul Tawab Al-Mulah Huwaish called the allegations "lies" Thursday and offered to let U.S. officials inspect plants they say are developing nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

"If the American administration is interested in inspecting these sites, then they're welcome to come over and have a look for themselves," he said.

The White House immediately rejected the offer, saying the matter is up to the United Nations, not Iraq.


Sen. Robert Byrd, D-West Virginia, attempted Thursday to mount a filibuster against the resolution but was cut off on a 75 to 25 vote.
"This is the Tonkin Gulf resolution all over again," Byrd said. "Let us stop, look and listen. Let us not give this president or any president unchecked power. Remember the Constitution."

But Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said the United States needs to move before Saddam can develop a more advanced arsenal. "Giving peace a chance only gives Saddam Hussein more time to prepare for war on his terms, at a time of his choosing, in pursuit of ambitions that will only grow as his power to achieve them grows," McCain said.
...
Minority Leader Richard Gephardt, D-Missouri, said giving Bush the authority to attack Iraq could avert war by demonstrating the United States is willing to confront Saddam over his obligations to the United Nations.
.....

</snip>

So much for "averting" war -- we should have given peace a chance, after all.

s_m

[Cocoa]

23. I really don't think so

if it's between Bush and a pro-IWR dem, I don't think they'll associate the dem with Bush's policy, I think they'll associate the dem with Clinton, who supported the IWR, but who resissted the pressure to invade Iraq when he was president.

No, the war is Bush's, the IWR represents the Congress working with Bush to protect America.

[otohara]

16. Watching George Will Shake His Head

while watching Prince of Darkness, Pearle lame excuse for Turks not going into Iraq was priceless. Ha, ha, never thought I see Will so disgusted with fellow neocon.

[janx]

21. Will isn't really a neocon. I have no idea why he continues

with the Republican party at all. It must not be very comfortable now.

[NewJeffCT]

22. George Will

Has written a few articles that caused me to blink recently - including saying that the administration should admit they were wrong on WMD.

[eleny]

25. Will compared U.S. current status in Iraq with the French in Algeria

After doing a little reading, it seems like that was a quiet yet damning comparison.

[Donna Zen]

20. Holbrooke in action

is a sight to behold. The book on him is that he is very exact and blunt with his opinions, and yet gets diplomatic results without the schmooze. At one point he practically told Perle...do no interrupt me. I was surprized when ol dead-man-walking snapped into silence. Holbrooke is married to a journalist, anyone know which one?

A table of events:

Jan. 2001: before the chimp is assumes the throne, CNN runs--Iraq, the Unfinished War

911

Spring & Summer 2002: Junior builds up troops in the Gulf, increased bombing

Summer: Dems and many people demand bush go to congress for a resolution--Congress wants bush to go to the UN.

Congress holds hearings--Ritter not invited--Clark testifies that while Saddam is a problem, he is not an immediate threat. Says we have 10 years to decide. Advises trip to the UN with no hair trigger...however he also says "no war" because it would pull resources from Al Queda which is the threat.

Rove's Senate trap complete!

(important point: bush is rattling the saber throughout)

UN resolution to get inspectors in. The resolution works!!!!!

Blair and Bush stomp feet throughout December 2002. 15 min to mushroom cloud warnings make the Sunday buzz.

Blair's lawyers advise that resolution number one is not suffient to go to war. Dragging their feet they return to the UN...but wait, cooler more logical French-speaking heads suggest that the inspectors have found nothing and maybe war is not the answer.

Bush and Blair go to war...! Without returning to congress, without a second resolution. Whoa...that makes the war illegal. Repeat: Blair lawyers told him he needed a second resolution because the one our critters voted on did not authorize the trigger-happy boy king to go oil puddle hopping.

By the way, Dean is on record as saying 1) he trusted the president to make the right decision 2) he felt we needed to give the inspectors at least 60 more days.

So why did I work this out? Because many seem to want to make the resolution the decision to go to war. They are two very different things. While many critters did think bushco should "take out" Saddam, many others were more nuanced and certainly more thoughtful.

That the resolution worked, that the UN got its shit together, something it needed to do rather than hiding behind the phoney, deadly sanctions, that Saddam complied is not why we are in this mess. Those who oh so convenietly point fingers in hopes of gathering support for their candidate, are too glad to confuse the issue.

The real issue is George Bush lied to the American Citizens, to Congress, and to the World. Blaming those to whom he lied may not excuse Kerry, Joe, John, Richard, but it also is far from the truth. Who voted to go to war indeed!

[Hamlette]

28. Thanks Donna Zen

I was wondering when someone would point this out. There was no "war" resolution, there was a resolution allowing bush to attack if Saddam didn't give up his weapons of mass destruction as provided in the UN resolution. Since he didn't have any weapons...I'm not so intent on blaming Congress which was duped just like the rest of us.

Granted...the UN got it right so I'd like to think our representatives in Congress would have too.

George Will's reaction to this whole mess is evidence the the neocons may well have played the fear card one too many times.

And yes, it was great to see even George Will gang up on Pearle who looked like an absolute idiot. His answers were such obvious propaganda, too simplistic, up is down right is wrong that it was delicious. He looked like a cartoon character.

[jayfish]

33. He (Pearle) Looked Like The Only Pre-Schooler At Storytime...

being read to by four adults. I just got done watching this and it was a sight to behold. I like when Pearle tried to go name dropping on the failure to get military support from the Turks. Holbrooke something to the effect of, "Lets not get into who talked to whom because I've talked to them too" and then proceeded to destroy Pearls' argument.

Jay

[aeon flux]

24. The Dean supporters

have yet to explain (without resorting to temper tantrums and personal attack) why Dean said in the Democratic debate that he WOULD HAVE voted for the $87 b for the Iraq war. He clearly stated this a while ago in the democratic debate held in the Fox theater.

If you can't give a straight answer to a legitimate question then you have no credibility.

[aeon flux]

27. The sound of dead silence

what do you expect.