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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 09:54 PM
Original message
Clark / Dean 04: An Appreciation
Edited on Sun Nov-09-03 09:57 PM by WillyBrandt
It's almost certain that the nominee will be Clark or Dean. While Dean seems to have an edge, it's still up in the air.

This is to fellow Clarkies wondering who the best VP choice would be if Clark won. For a while, I had thought Edwards or Kerry. Edwards would super-Southernize our ticket, and possibly give us 16 years of power. Kerry would give us a duo of war heros to take on the chickens in power.

But. But. . . what about Dean? I had resisted the idea of Dean as a running mate, since he added so little according to the Conventional Wisdom. How many people who would vote Democratic just because Dean was on the VP slot? Not many, I would think.

Then I read this piece in The New Republic on Joe Trippi, Dean's campaign manager: https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20031117&s=scheiber111703

More than anyone else, Dean and Trippi have revolutionized American politics. Clark has too, but only to a certain extent, and in some part he has done so in Dean's footsteps. With Dean on the VP slot, we'd have the following advantages:

(1) We'd get Joe Trippi. This guy is a fucking hero. Thank God he's a Democrat! He's 100x better than the punks wasting Clark's talents and assets. Clark could fire everyone and have Dean's people run everything.

(2) We'd have two anti-war outsiders who, when speaking of the Bushies, have some of the meanest mouths in the country. Clark could throw the red meat out there well-done, with Dean turning it out extra rare.

(3) We'd have--let's be honest--nearly all the Dem grassroots roped into one. The other guys, with partial exception of Kucinich, have tiny grassroots support.

(4) We would not have to worry about an inconsistent ticket. Dean and Clark have, if you pay attention, nearly identical political views. There are small points of divergence, but they are tiny. (E.g., whether to scale back middle-class tax cuts too)

(5) We would build a bridge between two often acrimonious groups who are basically divided by loyalty and committment instead of ideology: Deanies and Clarkies. This would be very good for the unity of our party.

(6) We'd have--and this is most important--a HUGE group of talented, devoted Deanies working for Dean still, and for Clark, someone who they usually find attractive, though not as much as the Good Doctor. We would have a grassroots army that would FINALLY dwarf the gang of crazies the GOP assembles.

(7) We'd have two strong-willed, smart, rational gentlemen bouncing ideas off each other. I think they would make a fantastic leadership team. They complement each other very well.

(8) Dean anywhere near the White House would drive the wingers nuts. And he would make sure that Clark constantly stays negative when talking about the GOP.

(9) They would transform our party: (a) the grassroots would have propelled BOTH candidates, not DLC ninnies; (b) Clark would counter the wimpy, false image the GOP has cultivated; (c) Dean and Trippi would bring in organizational power that McAulliffe fails to bring; (d) we'd have two fighters to look up to, instead of folks triangulating out of (sometimes) convienience and (sometimes) necessity.

(10) Their demographics complement each other perfectly. Having both of them--but especially Dean--up there would minimize Green defections.

(11) Oh, the debates, could you imagine the debates. Clark is perfect to go against Sissy Bush. And Dean would not only give Cheney a few heart attacks, he'd be the Good Doctor and help him revive afterwards.

(12) A selfish reason. As much as I think Clark is the better candidate, I can't bring myself to dislike Dean that much--in fact, everytime I see him on TV, I'm ready to cheer. Especially when he used that great line: "I don't want to listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore!"

(13) They would raise so much fucking money.

I'm sorry, Kerry and Edwards just can't do all that. And Deanies, Clark is the best VP choice, should he choose to accept it.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Vanity Kick
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Closer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeh
"I don't want to listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore!"

Don't ya just LOVE that? Damn, everytime I watch that speech, it sends chills down my spine. That's the day I feel IN LOVE with Howard Dean.

Damn WillyBrandt, you sound like a Dean fan in the closet. What's up with that?

Join our campaign, we'd love to have you. And I'm sure Joe Trippi would, too.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think Clark would be a better President
I started out as a Deanie, but then got interested in the Draft Clark movement, and that was that. I've just got a taste for Clarkian intellectualism. . . and for nixing Bush's electoral assets. I could write an equally rabid pro-Clark piece.

But I give credit where credit's due, and Dean deserves a lot. I suspect that from now on, ANY Democratic candidate who wants to win has to tred the path that Dean/Trippi started. Clark did in large part--along with his own set of innovations--but the Establishment must adapt.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. I DO love that
I don't think it'll play well in the south, but yeah. I gotta admit that I love it.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is a fascinating concept.
Dean can raise money and fire up the base making hin the very definition of a good veep candidate for a guy like Clark. They compensate eachother's shortcomings so both a Dean/Clark or a Clark/Dean ticket works.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Clark/Dean
Would I think be literally unstoppable. I mean that Bush could not win in any way.

But Dean/Clark less so... but I guess I'm biased
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow, you make a darn good case.
Ya damn near sold me. Solid points, man.
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Everybody should read this.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree! :)
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. I hope to high hell that Dean will have nothing to do with Clark
Edited on Mon Nov-10-03 12:20 AM by Eloriel
in ANY way, shape or form. I am pleased that after it came out that Clark wasn't even a fucking Democrat, for heaven's sakes, that he backed off his "friendship" with the poseur.

He's going to be a disaster in the general election -- so much meat for Rove to chew on it makes my head spin -- and I want him nowhere near Dean.

Edit: Oh, and I don't think there's any strong indication Clark will get very much farther than he is now. YMMV.

Eloriel
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. What total hatred and contempt
You squeeze into so few sentences. It's almost like a political hate poem you've posted.

It's very disturbing.

(And thanks for addressing the substance of my argument so thoughtfully!)
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's ok.....
There are only 3 or so that are that rabid left.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It has nothing to do with Left
Edited on Mon Nov-10-03 12:31 AM by WillyBrandt
I suspect that I am more Left than a lot of the Clark haters. It's like some folks have developed a cult of anti-personality around Clark.

Considering that Dean and Clark are fairly similar politically, it seems to be less an ideological fixation than something chemical.

On EDIT: This reply makes no sense :) You meant "left" as in remaining, not as in left-wing. Apologies. So tired.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sorry, Let me my self clearer...
as an Ex Green....I did not mean "Rabid Left"...I meant remaining....
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Rabid is good
It's just misdirected.
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. I agree they'd make a great team
Edited on Mon Nov-10-03 12:46 AM by Woodstock
and I think either would be willing to be #2 if it turned out it was either that, or find something else to do.

I think some of the Clark haters are turned off by the general bit, but to me, that's a big advantage. He's NOT a war-monger.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yes!
Before I read this thread, I was of the general opinion that someone like Edwards might be the better VP pick. Err, he can be attorney general or somehting. You have sold me. I think. Very nicely done.

Some more points:

1) I want 16 years of Clark & Dean.

2) Do you have any idea how excellent a candidate the Republicans would need to beat those two in 2008? 2012? 2016?

3) Do you know how many excellent Republicans there AREN'T?

4) Wesley Clark was born in 1944. Howard Dean was born in 1948.

5) Therefore Clark/Dean is better than Dean/Clark because we can more easily (and it is more likely) that we could get 16 years.

6) Alternately, maybe they would agree to something revolutionary such as: Clark/Dean 04, Dean/Clark 08, Clark/Dean 12, Dean/Clark 12. Except then Clark wouldn't be able to be Vice President the last time. He would be secretary of defense/state or something. Actually that might be good, because it would mean that some other hotshot could be Veep and be set up to be President in 2020.

7) I think Clark/Dean is better than Dean/Clark at least for this election because the President functions as commander in Chief and I think people would trust Clark more in that position. This is very important right now because of the international situation. After a few years, Dean would have gotten foreign policy experience behind Clark, and he would be ready. Meanwhile, Dean could be a very active VP, and do a lot on domestic policy.

8) Can you imagine NOT having a Scalia on the supreme court?

9) Can you imagine NOT having a Thomas on the supreme court?

10) Can you imagine Kennedy and O'Conner not being the court's center?

11) Can you imagine a functional healthcare system?

12) Can you imagine decent primary education?

13) Can you imagine a rational foreign policy?

14) Can you imagine either of those two men allowing themselves to be pphotographed next to Rick Santorum signing a bill? No? Neither can I.

15) Can you imagine how cool this would be?

16) We need to FORCE them to do this. They need to get together.

17) I think the organizational, monetary, unitary, and other benefits of doing this would greatly outweigh the benefits any other two candidates could bring.

18) But I don't think there is any reason to fire people. Instead send anyone not needed at central HQ to swing states to campaign, brutally, mercilessly, and constantly.

19) Organize massive invasions of states like New Hampshire and Pennsylvania by hordes of Democratic activists from neighboring 'safe' states. Make sure everyone is frothing at the mouth. Then let them lose. Let the influx double the population of New Hampshire. And heck, it would be great for the New Hampshire (or any other swing state's) economy. And besides, everyone would be frothing at the mouth. It would be good in that way.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Yes!
You've got it down better than I do.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
18. #8 is a real deal breaker.
Edited on Mon Nov-10-03 01:41 AM by Skwmom
#8 Dean anywhere near the White House would drive the wingers nuts. And he would make sure that Clark constantly stays negative when talking about the GOP.

You're absolutely right that he would drive the wingers nuts. What would we have. GRIDLOCK. This country is in serious crisis and there are alot of problems that need to be taken care of.

What's the good in winning the campaign if you lose the war?

In addition, Dean is way to polarizing and devisive.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. After my own heart!
My sentiments exactly! I am tired of the partisan BS.

Only Clark can navigate those waters without a losing one grey hair!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. Speaking "strategery!" I'd rather see an Industrial Midwestern candidate.
Clark could help score a few southern states in the general election, but to seal the deal, his best strategy would be to ensure wins in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania (an electoral jackpot of 62 combined electoral votes). Gore carried Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2000, and was defeated by only a 4 point margin in Ohio. With Ohio in the pocket, Gore wouldn't have even needed Florida, and he didn't carry a single other southern state, to boot.

Who, pray tell, is the great midwestern candidate who could help us sweep Illinois (Gore won by a wide margin there, it's easier to predict that it's solid Dem), Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania?

I've always admired Dean, but if Clark is the hypothetical nominee (and this is really just a fun, hypothetical thead, isn't it?), and by the very nature of his "favorite son" and straight-laced military background can help deliver more than one southern state, we should really look to a successful, industrial midwestern Democratic politician with Veep Lust.

Who...?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. Don't think Dean would make Clark's list
1. I think Clark's first priority would be to get someone with lots of Washington experience to cover the fact that he's never run for school board. That wouldn't be Dean.

2. A woman, minority or person from a better electoral region would be more attractive than Dean.

3. Dean has been a loose cannon in the campaign so far having to apologize to the other candidates and creating other firestorms. The last thing any presidential candidate wants to spend his time doing is explaining what his running mate meant. I would think this would be especially annoying to a military person used to discipline and chains of commands.

I don't think Dean would even make the list to be looked at.
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