It's official. Kucinich is the ONLY candidate to defeat Bush.

[spindoctor]

Sorry people, but the jury is in. I was doing some more browsing on the selectsmart.com site (after taking the president select test), and found the list who won the "presidential selection" based on their findings.

Check this out:

Winners of the presidential selector race
(135452 Responses)

41% Kucinich, Cong. Dennis, OH - Democrat
14% Bush, George W. - US President
12% Dean, Gov. Howard, VT - Democrat
7% Green Party Candidate
6% Kerry, Senator John, MA - Democrat
6% Libertarian Candidate
3% Moseley-Braun, Former Senator Carol IL - Democrat
2% Gephardt, Cong. Dick, MO - Democrat
2% Edwards, Senator John, NC - Democrat
2% Your ideal theoretical candidate.
2% Lieberman Senator Joe CT - Democrat
1% Sharpton, Reverend Al - Democrat
0% Jackson, Cong. Jesse Jr., IL - Democrat
0% LaRouche, Lyndon H. Jr. - Democrat
0% Bayh, Senator Evan, IN - Democrat
0% Biden, Senator Joe, DE - Democrat
0% Clinton, Senator Hillary Rodham, NY - Democrat
0% Graham, Senator Bob, FL - Democrat
0% Leahy, Patrick Senator, Vermont - Democrat
0% Clark, Retired Army General Wesley K "Wes" Arkansas - Democrat
0% Your theoretical ideal candidate.
0% Daschle, Senate Minority Leader Tom, SD - Democrat
0% Feingold, Senator Russ, WI - Democrat
0% Phillips, Howard - Constitution
0% McCain, Senator John, AZ- Republican
0% Bush, President George W. - Republican
0% Buchanan, Patrick J. – Reform/Republican
0% Clark, Retired General Wesley K., AR - Democrat
0% Socialist Candidate
0% Lieberman, Senator Joe, CT - Democrat
0% Kaptur, Cong. Marcy, OH - Democrat
0% Feinstein, Senator Dianne, CA - Democrat
0% Nader, Ralph - Green Party
0% Augustine
0% Gore, Former Vice-President Al - Democrat
0% Clark, Retired General Wesley K. - AR - Democrat

Out of nearly 150,000 people who took this test (which is way more than in any given poll), no less than 41% agrees....Kucinich is the right guy.

And yes, Kucinich is the ONLY candidate that actually defeats George Bush. Actually, he pulverizes him, chews him up-spits him out, leaves him in the dust, you get my drift :evilgrin:

Don't take my word for it: http://www.selectsmart.com/PRESIDENT/who.php

[xJlM]

1. Good news for America

So the best candidate is the only one who can win? That's news worth celebrating. No wonder so many want to marginalise him.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

2. Color me skeptical...

Based on their demographic breakdown, middle-aged males in Alabama preferred Kucinich over Bush. I find that a little hard to believe. Nothing against Dennis, certainly, but without seeing who these respondents were and how that responses were translated into support for Kucinich, this "poll" looks more like a combination of extrapolation and wishful thinking.

On Edit: Took their "quiz" and Dean finished one point ahead of Kucinich. What was curious was the fact that Carol Mosley-Braun finished with a score of 18% -- just four points ahead of Bush himself. What's up with that?

[birdman]

8. Mississippi appears to be Dennis country too

Among males 51-60 he flogs Bush 47-35.

I wonder how many Kucinichites got carpal tunnel
syndrome stuffing this particular ballot box.

[RichM]

9. I did, I did!

And boy oh boy, does my wrist ever ache today! I'm taking industrial doses of Motrin, & swathing it in Ace bandages. :-)

[spindoctor]

13. Moseley-Braun

In my test, she actually ended up behind Bush. I am still shocked and surprised. Edwards and Gephardt came in 3 and 4, when I would have placed them well behind Kerry, Clark and Sharpton.


I am still looking into their methods. I can guarantee you that they do not have a corporate interest in the Kucinich campaign though. lol

[maha]

30. Methods?

It was a self-selected poll, was it not? There were no methods.

[loyalsister]

45. Wording!

Wording is part of the design and yes, part of the methods. I had a conversation with a pollster the other day who said that it's all in the wording. You can go to just about any rural area, and use "A woman should make a decision about a pregnancy privately with her doctor and family" with a Strongly agree......disagree, and you will find LOTS of pro-choice people. BUT, if you ask people if they identify themselves as "pro-choice," you will find far fewer.

[Tinoire]

33. Mosely-Braun is not a Progressive Liberal

That's probably why... Additionally, she has no clear stance on several issues...

I was suprised at how low she came on my list when I first did the SelectSmart thing and then went and researched.

Nice lady but more to the right than people realize.

Increase size of Army: No public position, but favors multilateral war on terror

Program budgets: No public position, but calls herself a fiscal conservative

Drilling in ANWR: No public stand, but critical of Bush's environmental policy

Middle East: No public stand, but supports greater use of diplomacy

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/president/issues/index.braun.html

[spindoctor]

42. Consider the nature of this test

This test is not a poll.
When polled, rednecks all over the US will pledge their vote to Bush.
When asked what their actual opinion on various matters is, it turns out that Bush does not look after their best interests.

Didn't we already know that was the case?

This test confirms it. Kucinich is the right man for middle-aged Alabama Nascar Dads (with confederate flags in the back of their pick-ups. lol), as well as Midwest farmers daughters and California girls.

[Hep]

3. If only

a person could get 60,000 votes and win a presidential election.

[Terwilliger]

4. Kucinich should be the Democratic party candidate

He is the OPPOSITION to Bush...you want opposites voting for you against the right-wing...VOTE KUCINICH!

[Hep]

6. He WILL be

the oppositino to bush if he wins the nomination. Whoever wins the nomination will be the OPPOSITION to Bush.

[Terwilliger]

14. I'm sorry...that's not accurate

most of the other candidates have repeatedly shown that they're NOT opposition to Bush...but that they're simply kinder, gentler Republicans

[Hep]

19. I could have sworn

that this primary was about someone to run against Bush. Now you're telling me they won't run?

[Terwilliger]

23. I'm not telling you anything

can't make someone hear who doesn't want to listen

[Hep]

26. Is Bush going to have an opponent or not?

My claim is that whoever wins the nomination will be Bush's opposition.

You say I'm wrong.

Or is this that whole Green Mantra again? "Bush=Gep, Bush=Kerry, Bush=Dean"

[Terwilliger]

31. so you were begging the question?

Opposition is political...not technical.

In Mississippi, a Democrat ran against Haley Barbour while doing his best to disavow any link he had with Democrats or liberals

Was that loser the "oppostion"?

[Hep]

37. In his case

why yes, he was the "opposition". Especially in Mississippi.

[Nederland]

39. Opposition

Opposition to every single position Bush holds is not only unnecessary, it is undesirable. For example, one could argue that Castro is completely opposed to Bush on every issue. Personally, I don't want Castro as President, but perhaps you do...

[Don_G]

5. Only One Opinion

Here's another: http://members.bellatlantic.net/%7Evze3fs8i/air/Elections.htm

[bowens43]

7. As much as I like Kucinich

He's unelecatble. In a time before TV he would have had a chance but not today. He doesn't act , look or sound 'presidential'.

[spindoctor]

20. Presidential like....George Bush for example?

The yelling gnome vs. the smirking chimp?

Get over it. That kind of attitude is what got Reagan elected...twice.

[Liberator_Rev]

51. "He doesn't act , look or sound presidential", like Dubya !

Denis will look presidential,if we give him the respect he has earned. Let's stop looking for others to lead and lead the way ourselves!

[maha]

10. One of the oddest web sites I've ever seen.

What exactly is the point of it?

[PVnRT]

11. Ummm, this is an unscientific internet poll

Do you really think that the results are indicative of the will of Americans? Answer: No.

[liberalcapitalist]

12. unfortunately, elections aren't about ideas

n/t

[maha]

15. The presidency isn't about ideas, either.

Somebody with great ideas needs to be in Congress. Constitutionally, the president's job is administrative. A guy with "great ideas" who is NOT a skilled politician and manager of people is going to be a dismal failure. On the other hand, a skilled politician and manager of people who is sharp enough to recognize other peoples' good ideas and help make them happen could be a very good president.

[Zorra]

16. DK is gradually gaining

in the mainstream as more people become familiar with his name and platform. I stumbled across this article from The Progressive, Nov. 2002 while surfing the net. I think it is pretty amazing, and shows that Dennis has excellent judgement and perception, and a great deal of foresight as well.

November 2002 issue
The Bloodstained Path
by Dennis Kucinich

Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted, and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States.
-----------snip-------
We know that each day the Administration receives a daily threat assessment. But Iraq is not an imminent threat to this nation. Forty million Americans suffering from inadequate health care is an imminent threat. The high cost of prescription drugs is an imminent threat. The ravages of unemployment is an imminent threat. The slowdown of the economy is an imminent threat, and so, too, the devastating effects of corporate fraud.
----------snip--------
America cannot and should not be the world's policeman. America cannot and should not try to pick the leaders of other nations. Nor should America and the American people be pressed into the service of international oil interests and arms dealers.
----------snip--------
If the United States proceeds with a first strike policy, then we will have taken upon our nation a historic burden of committing a violation of international law, and we would then forfeit any moral high ground we could hope to hold.

http://www.progressive.org/nov02/kuc1102.html

Pretty right on stuff. Imagine having a President with this type of clarity, foresight, and understanding.

[maha]

29. You're right! He IS gaining!

The most recent Zogby poll of likely Democratic voters has Kucinich moving up from 1 percent to 2 percent!!!!!

Whoa, Nellie! It's the Big Mo!

http://pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

[Zorra]

50. It's better than going DOWN in the polls, and

according to this 1991 Gallup poll, Clinton was only at 6% in December 1991.

Mario Cuomo - 33%
Jerry Brown - 15
Douglas Wilder - 9
Bob Kerrey - 8
Tom Harkin - 7
Bill Clinton - 6
Paul Tsongas - 4
Undecided/Others - 18

[Guaranteed]

17. Ummm...there has to be something wrong with that poll.

It sounds like some Kucinich supporters got their hands on it, to me.

[spindoctor]

18. Oh yeah

That is typically what Kucinich supporters do. All 150,000 of us.

I had a friend take this poll, who I would have expected to come up with someone much more conservative, even he ended up with Kucinich.

I will continue to research this tool, but maybe....just maybe, the simple fact is that Kucinich is indeed the man that the majority of America agrees with.

[JohnKleeb]

36. If that was the case Dean wouldnt be so high to me

Actually I feel its a little inaccurant myself.

[Nederland]

21. Classic

This is a classic example of just how deluded Kucinich supporters are. I can't think of any other group of people that would actually look at an internet poll and claim that its results accurately reflected the views of the population at large. Seriously, do you folks actually believe this shit, or have you drank so much of the Kucinich kool-aid that reason has completely left you?

[Terwilliger]

24. the kool-aid has already been imbibed

by the stupid Democrats who listen to the Repukes and try to emulate them

[spindoctor]

27. LOL

As much as the title of this thread is a tongue in cheek remark, you have to come with something more substantial than that.

This is not a yes/no poll, so it is not simple to "Kuch" it.
Besides, I am on just about every Kucinich mailing list, and I can assure you that I have never seen a request to manipulate any poll. I like to think that we are a little above that.

This poll demonstrates that people like what Kuch stands for. I will be the first to admit that those same people are mostly unaware of that.

[Nederland]

40. Something more substantial

Kucinich polls at 1% or 2%. That is an undeniable fact that every Kucinich supporter conveniently ignores.

[spindoctor]

41. Hard to ignore

That is, as a matter of fact, one of my bigger frustrations in life, directly followed by the size of my penis.

No, on second thought, my penis comes first.

Anyway.

This test is not a poll. It does not ask (uninformed) people which candidate they are most likely to vote for. It asks people to give their personal opinion on several major issues and then matches them up with the candidate that most closely represents their stand.

It has nothing what so ever to do with polling. The end result, an overwhelming majority for Kucinich, just proves that a majority of the Americans still want the right thing.

[Nederland]

43. No

The end result, an overwhelming majority for Kucinich, just proves that a majority of the Americans still want the right thing.

No, it proves that a majority of people that took the poll agree with what you think is the right thing.

[spindoctor]

44. Yep

And I find that very encouraging :)

[ErasureAcer]

22. Kucinich is the only one proposing UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!!!!!

Why people don't recognize this...I dunno. Surely, every DUer knows this...yet still they want 40 million americans to have no coverage and another 30 million to only have partial.

I just watched John Q last night...great movie, Denzel does another magnificent job. It tackles this issue...and how working people, Denzel and his wife, get screwed over by their HMO.

Seriously people...Dennis' plan will fly with all those who are uninsured, and millions more that still pay enormous ammounts for drugs on their co-pay and are left without food or clothing.

Support Kucinich's campaign today, give $2 or something...Universal HealthCare needs to be heard as an issue in America and only Dennis is talking.

www.kucinich.us

[maha]

28. I thought Carol Mosley Braun did, too?

BTW, and speaking as someone who is uninsured at the moment and worrying about it, if the universal health care thing were easily do-able I'm sure the other candidates would have plans for it.

Even if DK were to be elected, we still won't get universal health care.

[Terwilliger]

32. really? thats rather defeatist

So, all the Dem candidates are promising something they can't deliver? Are they all liars, maha?

[Hep]

48. Not all

candidates are promising something they can't deliver.

[no name no slogan]

49. Unfortunately it's not a question of "do-ability"

Remember Clinton's hapless attempt at "Universal" coverage? I (and many others) voted for him in 1992 in the hopes we'd end up with a truly universal single-payer system.

To say the least, his "managed care" proposal was DOA because it was NOT Universal, nor was it single-payer.

Most candidates are afraid to mention single-payer because the fear the GOP talking points of "socialized medicine".

Most of our candidates this go-round are AFRAID to mention (much less stand up for) a single-payer universal system, for fear that the right-wingnuts will try to paint them as communists or worse. The media has done one hell of a job painting the three candidates who actually have PLANS for universal single-payer as "extrimists" or "unelectable". But then again, look who buys the advertising space, and you may get a better picture of why that is.

If universal single-payer is so unworkable, then why do 8,000 members of the ADA support it? How dare these doctors know anything about medical care!

Even Richard Nixon proposed it in 1972. Instead, we got HMOs. It's not unworkable at all-- it's just that most of our candidates are AFRAID to address the issue at all.

[mmonk]

25. OK

A small amount of democratic party voters goes 41% to Kucinich by completing the vote smart questionaire.

[FDRrocks]

34. NOOOOOOO

Liberals cannot win! They are evil evil evil. We need Centrists I tell you! We've done well these past 20 years!

[snoochie]

52. LOL!

:D

[spindoctor]

35. I think I found out what is wrong with these test results

Everybody takes the test three times.

First time: Kucinich? Nahh, that's not me. Let's do it again.
Second time: Kucinich again? Mmmmhhh. odd. I better make sure.
Third time: Yep, Kucinich. Maybe I should look into this guy.

So in reality it is only 43% of 50,000 people that discovered The Kuch.

This test will be around for some time though. Even if some group does decide to tweak the results, the individual outcome will still be Kucinich for almost half of the participants.
I have a feeling Kuch is going to get out of the slumps before too long.

:evilgrin:

[Beaker]

38. Hey Doc- Take 2 reality pills, and call me in the morning.

nt

[Trek234]

46. Kucinich also came in 2nd

on the Moveon primary. I think Kucinich has FAR more (and potentially FAR more) support than the media/Clarkies/Deanies would like us to believe.

[quaker bill]

47. There is something wrong with this model

I look at math models all the time. When a model gives you results that don't pan out in reality, you count on reality and assume the model is wrong.

Kucinich polls at 2 percent. People have gotten to know him and there he stays, the numbers have just not moved. Kucinich has a likely upside of 2 or 3 more percent, if he gets his message out and the field consolidates.

If he gets the nomination, I promise, I will send him the limit. I will also take time off and work for his campaign.

It is simply not going to happen.

[snoochie]

53. But that's just it...

People don't know him. Most don't even know his name.

[Clark Can WIN]

54. Oh give me a break

:eyes:

I think "junk science" would be too kind.

How about virtual bird cage liner?

[spindoctor]

55. Follow-up

As promised, I looked into this test some more, in an attempt to analyze its results.

A few observations:
1. Although there are links to all candidates websites, the only ones that are advertised are Dean and Clark.
2. The owner of the site is a man named Curt Anderson. I can think of three people by that name. A Maryland Delegate, A Microsoft Director, and a controversial Meat Packer. I don't believe this is either one.
He might be the man behind failed inside.com
In 1999 he wrote a Vice President selector "for" George W Bush (Cheney ranks first if you answer 'no opinion' to all questions).
3. The disclaimer reads: "The candidates' positions have been determined first by the candidate's actions, then their public votes, followed by their public statements, and whenever possible, special interest group rankings of the candidate have been factored in."

History:
Curt Anderson of Ashland, Ore, set up candidate selector at www.selectsmart.com in order to 'cut through negative ads and hyperbole of presidential Web sites'.
In 1999, the Christian Science Monitor asked Anderson to develop a similar selector tool for their own website. Licensing to other firms is SelectSmart’s largest revenue generator. The company also earns money from advertisers on its Web site.

Methods used:
The questions are based on political trends. The answers on the available stances by presidential candidates. In some cases this means that interpretations had to be made. Supporters and candidates are encouraged to provide feedback.

Personal thoughts:
All people I know who favor Dean, ended up with Kucinich as their first choice. As somebody put it "It's all good. I like Dean's pragmatism better than Kucinich's idealism".
To assume the test (not poll!!) was manipulated by Kuch supporters is ridiculous. The test demonstrates that there is a platform for progressive change in the US. Too many people say things in the line of "America is not ready for this. We need slow change.", but these are the same people who are in favor of all these "radical progressive changes" and they are slowly forming a majority.

I am curious if the dissenters in this thread bothered to take the test themselves. Individual outcomes are after all unlikely to be tainted.
There are many ways in which the general outcome of this test can be distorted, and as such it holds limited value as a scientific "prediction" of the 2004 election results.
It does however indicate a trend. An interesting one. I won't draw any public conclusions from it (safe my provoking thread header), but I will file this in the feelgood drawer for later use.

In the months before the 2000 elections, the selectsmart test drew 80,000 visitors a day. It will be worth watching to see the test results develop as the number of participants grows this time around.

[eridani]

56. The poll matches your political positions

with those of the candidates. No snarl words like 'extreme liberal' or considerations of strategic voting involved. Strip those things away, and the Kucinich platform is pretty mainstream.

If the survey were left or Dem slanted, then every Dem candidate should outrank Bush, and that is not the case.