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Army Org, Lesson 4: The Strange Case of the 8th Imperial Army

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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:55 PM
Original message
Army Org, Lesson 4: The Strange Case of the 8th Imperial Army
First, for DUReader:

Lesson 1: What Is The Army? And what is not the Army?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=666522

Lesson 2: Echelons (very long)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=668741

Lesson 3: The Staff
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=670535

- - - - -

All Army units, whether they be a squad or a corps, are organized under one of two documents, the Table of Organization and Equipment or the Table of Distribution and Allowances. Tactical units, the ones who do the fighting, use the TO&E. Units that are more administrative in character use the TDA.

If you were to organize a unit exactly like the TO&E says, it wouldn't work. The document (which you need a hand truck to move) describes an "ideal" division. There's no such thing as an ideal division, as the writer of the TO&E knew, because on about page three of this tome is a sentence "units may modify this document to suit their mission with the approval of Headquarters, Department of the Army." The modified document is then known as a Modified TO&E, or MTOE.

The 8th Army shows just how "modified" you can get.

8th United States Army (known as "8th Imperial Army" by non-8th Army units because they think they're God over there) has one mission: to keep the North Korean People's Army on the north side of the Han River. Headquarters is on Yongsan Army Garrison, Seoul, Korea. It is commanded by a four-star general.

8th Army consists of the following units:

19th Theater Support Command: This is the supply-and-maintenance branch of 8th Army.

8th Personnel Command: From 8th Army's website: The mission of 8th PERSCOM is to sustain personnel readiness and exercise command and control over assigned theater-level personnel units. The theater PERSCOM manages critical personnel systems and synchronizes personnel network operations throughout the theater. The command is headquartered in Yongsan with subordinate units located throughout Korea. The 516th PSB is headquartered in Yongsan with detachments located at Cp Humphreys and Cp Henry. Also, the 516th PSB, Delta Co, is responsible for controlling all incoming mail to Korea. Postal platoons are located in Yongsan, Kimpo Airport, Cp Humphreys and Cp Henry. The 1st Replacement Company, located in Yongsan, is responsible for controlling and processing all incoming soldiers entering Korea. The EUSA Band in Yongsan, performs throughout the Korea. The 509th PSB at Cp Casey has subordinate unit, the 19th AG Company (Postal) with platoons located at Camp Casey and Camp Red Cloud. Translation: all personnel actions, mail and new troops come through this unit. They also run the band. This unit is massive.

2nd Infantry Division. These people need a whole section; that's below.

1st Signal Brigade. This unit is subordinate to the US Army Information Systems Command. It handles all long-haul communications, is responsible for all computer systems, and runs the American Forces Korea Network radio and television stations.

17th Aviation Brigade: I can't figure out who decided how to garrison this unit, or what he was thinking. Its headquarters is in Seoul. Its airfield is over an hour away. Ya'd think they would have put the colonel out where the airplanes are, huh?

501st Military Intelligence Brigade. The 501st is the unit I was in. It is not subordinate to 8th Army, but to the Intelligence and Security Command. It is the only unit in INSCOM that has grenade launchers.

6th Cavalry Brigade

8th Military Police Brigade

19th MP BN Criminal Investigation Division

18th Medical Command

129th Medical Detachment (Veterinary Service). This unit does far more than just care for the military's working dogs and soldiers' pets (on a space-available basis); the US Army Veterinary Service also performs food inspection. Someone has to do it, and the Army assigns it here.

175th Finance Command

Combat Support Coordination Team 3

Eighth United States Army Non Commissioned Officers Academy

UNC Security Battalion-Joint Security Area. This is a weird one. Its mission is to support the Joint Security Area at Panmunjom, Korea. Its most famous (infamous?) period was in 1976, when two JSA officers went out to trim a tree that was blocking the JSA troops' view of North Korea and were beaten to death by North Korean forces.

Special Forces Detachment-Korea

Special Operations Theater Support Element

Logistic Support Element Far East

Joint U.S. Military Affairs Group-Korea

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Far East District

Fleet Activities Chinhae: This supports the Navy.

* * * * *

Now let's talk the 2nd Division, America's most weirdly-organized division. It has two maneuver brigades. One would think "light infantry." First Brigade has two tank battalions and one mechanized infantry battalion with Bradley fighting vehicles. Second Brigade has a Bradley battalion and two air-assault battalions, plus the division Long Range Surveillance Detachment. (There is no doctrine that states where to put LRSD. Officially it belongs to the MI battalion. Some divisions put it there, some put it right at division headquarters, one division puts it in the aviation brigade, and the 82d Airborne put it in the cavalry squadron, which is where I think it should go. The Second D put it in an infantry brigade. I guess it works there; after all, they are all infantrymen.

The rest of the Second D is pretty conventional looking--division support command, division artillery, aviation brigade, bastard brigade.

Where it gets fun is at battalion level. Remember when I said division was as low as a civil affairs staff got? Not in Second D--they have a civil affairs person at battalion level.

Another fun fact: Many of the soldiers in the Second D--for that matter, many of the soldiers in US Forces Korea--are Koreans. Welcome to the KATUSA program. Means "Korean augmentee to the United States Army." Anyplace the mission can be enhanced by adding a Korean soldier, one is added. The highest concentration of KATUSAs is in Military Police units; half of the MPs in Korea are KATUSAs, and for obvious reasons: if two American MPs walked in to arrest a KATUSA, the first thing they'd hear would be "I don't speak English." That doesn't work when a fluent Korean speaker is standing next to you.

* * * * *

Now that I've described 8th Army, know that there are three other commands a soldier will belong to. At the top of the heap is United Nations Command. The UN Command ran the North Koreans back across the Han in the 1950s and will do it again if the balloon goes up. Today, they're basically one building with 300 troops from many nations in it who do parades. If the war breaks out, they're in charge.

Combined Forces Command ties the US and South Korean units together. They do some exercises but that's about it. The neat thing about CFC is the binationality of it. The commander is a US general (the 8th Army commander); his deputy is a Korean general. Each staff section has either an American or a Korean as chief, with an equal-rank officer from the other nation as his deputy.

US Forces Korea is in charge of all the troops in Korea no matter what service they're in.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. interesting stuff
I love reading about military stuff, from rifles to TO/E tgo orders of battle to history.
Thanks for posting this
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. Correction on the 2ID
they have 3 maneuver brigades. 2 are in the ROK and one is in Ft. Lewis. The Third Brgade Combat Team is now being transformed as part of the Army's move to a medium force.

I was stationed with 1-37 FA for 36 months in Ft Lewis and I wore the Indian Head patch the entire time. Our mission then, was tactical reserve.

B
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I used the 2ID website for that information
They don't list a brigade at Fort Lewis. Doctrinally it makes sense for them to have a third brigade (a light-infantry division also has a third brigade, but it belongs to the National Guard Bureau; in two years with the 10th Mountain I never saw those people on post and we certainly never drilled with them) but they don't claim it as theirs.

However, someone needs to find the guy at 2ID Public Affairs who learned Flash and drop a bowling ball on his fingers. Very distracting site to attempt to navigate...
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Then what unit was I in for 3 years?
I was in 1-37 FA which was part of the 3rd Brigade, 2ID.

Check out this link:

Link
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I have no doubt you were in 2ID
I also know the 2ID's official website doesn't list this unit.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks so much for writing/posting these descriptions.
They are very well done. Must have taken you a while to put these together.

I have a couple of questions.

First, will these forever be avilable at the DU links you have posted - or do you have a website where I can find them in the future. I'd like to keep the links in my "useful links" folder for reference.

Second, I often see references to I Corps, VII Corps, etc. in military literature. Are these spoken as: One Corps, Seven Corps - or First Corps, Seventh Corps - or Eye Corps, Vee-eye-eye Corps - or what?

Thanks again Old Soldier
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Answer
I Corps is commonly called "eye" corps. VII Corps is called the "seventh corps"
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. And V Corps is called "Vee" Corps'
What unit was/is called the 'Nickel'?
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I don't know...
I did know that 555 Engineers is called "Triple nickle"
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Maybe that's what I was thinking of...
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. So then there's no grammatical rule . . .
. . about this. You just have to know how to say it?
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Pretty much
Whereas, on paper, units are all numbered similarly, there are some traditional names they take when spoken (like 555 Engineers is called "Triple Nickle")
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OldSoldier Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Okay, okay, watch this space...
A quick rant on unit names is in order...
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Cool
many thanks
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wonderful
brillient.
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