I think Dean does a great job running against other Democrats.

[blm]

I think this is based on his years of experience holding the left at arm's length during his career as governor.

Dean is a centrist and governed as a centrist. That's not a problem for me, if he was sincere and principled in his more centrist positions, but he also chose to berate those on the left who wanted their views represented. His way of dealing with the left was to NOT listen to them, but berate them publicly.

I have posted links to toher articles about Dean's treatment of those on the left, well, now there's another article out about discovering the real Howard Dean.

No, I won't say Dean = Bush. But, he does sound alot like Zell Miller.
____________________________________________________________

Mention Howard Dean to the folks who know him best, and they shake their heads in awe, marveling at how their very own "Ho-Ho" has muscled his way to the forefront of Democratic presidential politics.

They see him on TV, firing up the liberals, and they're dumbfounded, because they always knew him as a tightwad governor who spent 10 years excoriating liberals. They see him wowing the "flatlanders" (that's everyone outside of Vermont), whipping them into a frenzy, and they can't square that with the little guy who wore frayed shirts and goofy ties and delivered speeches that lulled listeners into a stupor.

<snip>

And whatever happened to the Howard Dean who, when asked to render an opinion about the governor of Texas back in 1999, always gave the same answer: "I like George Bush, he's a good guy."

<snip>

Instead he would often rant at his detractors, calling them "lunatics," or confronting them with "the finger in the face," as Nelson calls it. At times he would get so mad that the skin on his thick wrestler's neck would redden to the color of raw meat. No wonder some folks used to call him "Little Napoleon."

<snip>

Meanwhile, the Republicans liked him just fine, because they were simpatico. Dean was old money (a descendant of whaling captains), with roots on Park Avenue and in the Hamptons. They also liked that he wasn't a "bleeding heart" - as evidenced by the time he publicly berated a single mother on welfare, saying, "You don't think you ought to work for a living?"

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/7215420.htm

[Hep]

1. Dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=81945&mesg_id=81945

[blm]

2. How many times and how many forums was the Rice column posted?

My thread is about my view on an article that is appropriate for discussion in General Discussion.

Please close ALL your repetitive threads on articles that favor your opinion, if you plan to close mine, Hep.

[Hep]

17. Which threads in particular

Which threads are you talking about?

I don't disguise mine as being objective, BTW.

[blm]

25. My distaste for Dean's dog and pony show is well-noted.

I was talking specifically about the Rice column on the flag flap. It has been posted at least 4 times, and I don't think anyone bothered to alert. But, then there is a difference in thickness of skins, eh?

[Hep]

32. Don't put that on me

I just linked to another discussion. I didn't alert. SO back off, paranoid man!

[flpoljunkie]

34. This was my original impression of Dean, too. It has not changed.

Later on in the article you posted, blm.

Everyone has theories about Dean's feistiness. Some say he's just a competitive preppie; Nelson, the academic, says he has a typical doctor's personality.

"Lawyers are used to getting challenged," Nelson said. "Doctors are not. So when Howard gets challenged, he takes it like, 'How dare you impugn me?' And there's a personal dimension: A lot of his drive is about proving himself. He's a short guy who wants a big presence."

[Hep]

35. Is this

all while Kerry remains "Washington Politician Guy"?

Doin' whatever it takes to keep his job and look like he participates, it's WASHINGTON POLITICIAN GUY!

[Rose Siding]

3. And what does the abused left have to say?

snip>
Jan Backus, who fought with Dean when she was a liberal state senator, said, "It doesn't matter that he wasn't before, because he's there now. That's a quality that the great politicians have - they come to believe in their own sincerity. The whole state, including me, is awed by what he has done."

[eileen_d]

4. LOL, is that a positive quote?

"Awe" is not necessarily a positive reaction.

[knowledgeispower]

7. Heh heh, I was wondering the same thing

I just hope to God Joe Trippi and Dean are sincere in their populist message, because they have sold A LOT of people (myself included) on it.

[blm]

5. Yes...but where do PRINCIPLES come in?

What he has done is convinced a certain percentage of people that he is indeed, a populist.

Without a real record to back it up, he is too easily portrayed as unprincipled and takes positions only when they benefit him.

Do you think the media will keep that teflon on Dean when he's running against Bush? Are they waiting for then to expose Dean?

[knowledgeispower]

9. If so

Dean will get smashed by the left in the general election. It would be like Nader/Gore (and I am a Nader supporter, FYI) only magnified ten times over. His entire base would be feel betrayed and would jump at the earliest moment to support a late entry third party leftist. Dean is shooting himself in the foot if his strategy is as you claim.

[Kolesar]

18. We have a saying here about Cleveland professional sports teams

"Ain't gonna happen". There is no way that the left is going to desert the Democrat candidate if the Dems pick a centrist (of the several who are running).

Any comparison of the Dem candidate to Bush would be just a stupid joke.

[Hep]

21. my hero

*claps loudly*

[TLM]

40. WHat has he done to show he is a populist...

well for starters, he was against the Iraq war that Kerry supported, when most of the world was against it.


Health care in VT, the balanced budget in VT... and when Dean doesn't go with the populist view, like on civil unions, it is because it is the right thing to do.

If Dean were really so bad, BLM, you wouldn't have to lie about him in damn near every post you make.

[Mairead]

41. Check your facts. Dean was for the invasion right up thru Conason

[Hep]

47. Check OUR facts?

Provide some, please!

[Mairead]

66. Yes, your facts

It's been posted here plenty times already--look it up for yourself.

[Scott Lee]

60. Question is...where does REALITY come in?

You are just eaten up inside over all the possibilities of what they are going to do to poor Howard when he faces off Bush. Have you thought of what they'll do to ketchup-money Kerry and record of rightwing party appeasement?

[mw]

6. All strengths when it comes to beating Bush

All we need to beat Bush is some Democrat WILLING to put a finger in Bush's face.

Nothing would help Bush get elected in 2004 than to have some Lieberman soft touch be-nice Democrat running against him.

The Bush record is akin to a steaming, fly-infested pile of SHIT. Too many Democrats don't want to be the one to point out that Bush's shitpile is in the middle of America's floor, for fear of being ill-mannered.

Howard Dean will speak out, and ask what the hell a big pile of steaming shit is doing on the floor.

Other Dems, after watching how Howard did it, are trying to play catch-up in the Bush criticism department. Too late.

[Padraig18]

11. Well said!

I am SICK of 'pink tutu' Democrats like RG, JL, JK and JE! Call it like you see it, Governor! :thumbsup:

[knowledgeispower]

13. LOL, good way of putting it

The Bush record is akin to a steaming, fly-infested pile of SHIT. Too many Democrats don't want to be the one to point out that Bush's shitpile is in the middle of America's floor, for fear of being ill-mannered.

Could not agree more.

[blm]

16. Only WITH the teflon. The teflon won't be there in the general.

Bush will have it, again.

Kerry is GREAT at running against Republicans. Dean's record and his rhetoric WILL get the scrutiny he is escaping now, that so many of you are in awe of...it's NOT real. If it's not real, it can't hold up for long. Democrats can't AFFORD to be lying or flip-flopping on ANY issue.

[Padraig18]

22. But 'nuancing' is OK, I assume?

:eyes:

[andym]

33. Not one of our candidates will have Teflon in the general election

Not one of our candidates will have Teflon in the general election.

Rove is at least as good as Atwater (see John McCain for
evidence of that).

The $200 million is powerful, but it's not the main point.
They could do the smears with much less. In fact,they'll
probably do it through their PACs and friendly "journalists",
not directly.

Depending on who are candidate is, it will just be a question of how many lies they need to tell.

In Dean's case they'll use his ability to counterattack against him.
Because he likes to directly come after his opponents, it will
used to tar him as willing to say "anything" to win, and thus discredit his message. The more powerful character assassination will be portraying him as an unstable hothead. That way each
direct counterattack will be used to "prove" it.

In the primaries, none of our candidates have used this level of character assassination-- and likely none will, they are
more principled than this.

To fight this, Dean MUST get on the popular culture shows
(like Leno-- where he did fine a few weeks ago), and
show himself to be a regular nice guy. It wouldn't
hurt Kerry, Clark or Edwards to do the same. A little
self-deprecating humor will go a LONG way to neutralizing
this attack.

[blm]

39. That's my point, NO democrat will have teflon, so they better be armed

with a core Democratic principle and the RECORD that can back it up. It's the lies and gaffes that will be used to sink someone who is coasting because of a faux veneer of teflon, which will go away in the general.

[Skwmom]

50. The trust factor in the general election is critical.

How can we beat Bush if we put up a candidate that many voters will view as untrustworthy?

I know Bush has a trust issue so if I was a Bush supporter what would I be praying for in a Democratic candidate. Someone that I could paint as untrustworthy because 1) it helps to diffuse that argument against Bush (that he is untrustworthy) and 2) it also calls into question any criticisms that untrustworthy Democrat is going to aim at Bush.

Dean will help the Republicans:
1. bring the disillusioned repubs and independents back into the fold.
2. stem military defections
3. reinforce that idea that the Democrats take the black vote for granted.
4. . diminish any moral authority the Democrats have for going after the Republicans for their wrong doings.
5. gain more seats in the house and senate
6. put another nail in the coffin of the Democratic party.
7. reinforce the idea that there really is no difference between the Democrats and Republicans

With Dean Rove certainly gets a lot of bang for the buck.

I can't quite get this song out of my head. The Democrats go marching off the cliff, again, again... or maybe I should make that skiing of the cliff in honor of Dean's draft performance.

[CMT]

8. they are all doing it

as far as running against other democrats that is the nature of the beast in a primary election. Dean gives as good as he gets. Look back at 1992 and all the nice things Paul Tsongas and Jerry Brown had to say about Bill Clinton.

[papau]

10. I posted that Howard was a low tax liberal with strong opinions that

are not easy to change - at least that was my opinion of him when he met with the Vt Dems back many years ago.

But the flatlanders are the liberals that have moved into Vermont making the State Dem - so of course he communicates with them. And he is prepared for conservative types in the legislature because that is what results from the way the State is carved up.

I still like Kerry or Clark or Edwards - in that order - but I have no problem with Dean and I think he can win. The GOP is whistling past the graveyard when then say they want Dean as the Dem. I think Kerry or Clark would have an easier time of it (and only those two) but Dean will do just fine.

[Don_G]

12. I Like Dean

He and Clark stand the best chance of defeating Dimbo. The only other VP choice would be Rockefeller.

[ibegurpard]

14. The other Democrats did a great job giving Dean issues to run against.

And, no, I'm not including Kucinich, Moseley-Braun, and Sharpton in this broad brush-stroke.

[He loved Big Brother]

28. Indeed they did.

n/t

[Scott Lee]

61. So far, other Democrats are proving to be the new "enemy"

What a weird world.

[Kolesar]

15. I wish I understood the electorate of Vermont

My impression is mostly positive. When I drove through Vermont in 2000, there were hybrid Toyotas prominently displayed at the dealership. The state elected Jeffords and Sanders to Congress. The state banned CFCs when the automakers were dragging their feet (no air conditioned cars were sold in Vermont that year!).

My real question is: Is there a "looney left" in Vermont? Is there a very strident and hard-to-please population that would earn that description? Would "looney left" be a term that a Vermont politican might blurt out at an inopportune moment?

[blm]

20. Long campaigns produce too many inopportune moments.

Trying to keep your positions straight when you're running as a populist, but, your entire record of governance and your own core principles are steeped in compromising centrism makes for greater risks.

[Kolesar]

23. I remember a "looney left" in Ohio!

I was slightly involved at the periphery of my brother's campaigns many decades ago. There were some leftists with a profoundly unrealistic view of the world. For example, there were those in the peace movement who thought the effort would culminate in an overthrow of US capitalism (!). This was decades ago, and I don't see much of this on the left.

I wonder if there is still a prominent "unrealistic left" in Vermont. I have seen hints of it in some articles about Vermont public policy.

On the lighter side, though, the Yippees did manage to pie Gov Rhodes in the face several times.

[blm]

27. It's more the way he chose to treat them and other progressive Dems

who couldn't have been too looney if they were in positions of power there.

more:
Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal

By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Many of the people who were his allies and adversaries in Montpelier over his 20-year political career have been quietly bemused by the liberal persona he’s built as he campaigns in Iowa and New Hampshire, especially through his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq.

>>>>>>>
Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html


Dean raises money from energy sources

February 27, 2002

By David Gram

ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.

>>>>>>>
“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”


Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.

A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:

— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996

MONTPELIER - A leading environmentalist was asked to leave Gov. Howard Dean's council of environmental advisers after she criticized the governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power plant in Vermont.

Elizabeth Courtney, executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, was one of 20 members of the governor's environmental council, which meets about once every three months with the governor.

But after Courtney wrote a newspaper opinion piece faulting Dean for his brief advocacy of a coal plant, she learned she was no longer welcome on the council. David Rocchio, the governor's legal counsel, wrote her late last month to say she will be replaced on the council by VNRC's board chairman. The move came after she had written the governor on energy issues and showed his staff her draft newspaper piece, Courtney said.

"From the tone of your letter (to the governor), the content of your (newspaper) essay, and your rejection of the concerns we have raised with you in conversation, it appears that you do not seek a dialogue," Rocchio wrote to Courtney and to VNRC's board. "The governor sees little point in continuing to try to discuss these issues with you."

Meanwhile, another prominent environmentalist - Mark Sinclair, Vermont director of the Conservation Law Foundation - was also asked to step down from the council. Sinclair said it was not yet clear whether he was being removed to make way for another environmentalist, as he was told, or because he had criticized Dean's environmental policies.
>>>>>>>

[TLM]

46. Same old crap... and the same old distortions...

DEan's record in VT stands on it's own.


You can find a far left enviornmenalist who disagreed with everything Dean did... just like you can find those same folks attacking Gore and Clinton.

Yet Dean was elected in VT 5 times in a row... so obviously he wasn't anywhere close to as bad as some of the greens (or sad desperate Kerry supporters) would try to paint him.

And why is it every time you bring up the coal plant that Dean suggested, you forget to mention it was to replace a nuclear plant?

[Kolesar]

49. Contributions by energy suppliers

If Green Mountain Power = Green Mountain Energy, then they are the company who advocates sourcing the "cleanest" electricity available (natural gas, hydro, recovered methane from trash landfills). Our regional buying cooperative decided to buy from Green Mountain Energy.

The electricity companies in Ohio, and for that matter the gas and telephone companies, spread their political contributions far and wide. They have had a corrupting influence on everything from the metroparks to the statehouse.

[blm]

52. It wasn't JUST Green Mountain

there were others as well, and as stated in the article, Dean pushed to deregulate electrisity and supported Bush on Yucca Mt. and was on board with Sierra Blance DESPITE the lobbying against those actions from environmentalists and Wellstone, even, who showed Dean their scientific reports which he dismissed in favor of the rightwing reports that supported both.

I don't trust this man's core principles. I believe his core is more Libertarian than many realize.

[Kolesar]

57. I see what you are getting at

I am concerned that Dr. Dean is "a little thin" on details in his program(s).

On Dean's website I don't see any mention of the Energy Bill that is now in the Senate. This is a huge story concerning the environment. It is a giveaway through tax cuts to extractive industries such as coal mining (the devil, itself).

11/6/03 Dean denounces Bush's EPA for dropping lawsuits against 70 power plants--that is a good thing. Dean refers to efficiency but does not call for increasing CAFE standards on automobiles and SUVs (especially)--a tough and necessary move.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10358&JServSessionIdr002=vptjt2x2g1.app195a&news_iv_ctrl=1422

[blm]

63. Thanks...anyone who goes to the CATO Institute

and brags about his beliefs in deregulation is not trustworthy to me. And I am not the type to fall for election year sudden conversions on these issues, either.

To me it's all about electing the most committed progressive because there will be no time to waste getting to work on the environment after Bush leaves. They have to be able to hit the ground running on foreign policy AND the environment, imo.

[TLM]

44. Why is it you keep attacking Dean

for being a compromising centrist... yet when Kerry support for the IWR is pointed out your defense is that he was compromising?


ANd there was nothing centrist about civil unions, healthcare, sucess by six, protecting 8% of VT's land mass, and focing insurance companies to cover mental health... about the only centrist thing he did was balance development with sprawl and balance the state budget.

Now can you point out how that's a bad thing?

Dean;s compromise resulted in net progressive gain... Kerry's compromise resulted in net progressive loss.

[TLM]

42. Yes there is a way loony left in VT...

The centrists in VT are moderate liberals in any other part of the country.


Dean took heat from the far far left for thinks like allowing any level of development at all in the state.

When you see pieces that say how Dean was so mean to the democrats in VT or that he attacked liberals... that crap is all based on a few incidences with this group that wanted zero development in VT. Dean pointed out that they were nuts if they thought you could have an economic recovery and no development.

I like that. I like that Dean wasn't afraid to stand up to his own party just as he was willing to stand up to teh republicans.

[CWebster]

19. A smear piece on Dean?

What a surprise, blm. I suppose someone could retaliate with a Kerry-bashing piece, but what would be the point, no one can do more damage to Kerry than Kerry.

[Padraig18]

26. "Never jump in front of a perfectly good train wreck."

An old Chicago political saying...

[boilerbabe]

29. True! n/t

[readmylips]

24. Dean is my Guy....

Kerry needs to take some of those drugs he was taking while in Vietnam. Maybe the drugs can get his butt on fire.

Gephartdt. I don't like him...period.

Edwards. I don't like.

I love Sharpton and Dinnis but they can't win.

All the others, I don't care for.

Dean has my money and my vote.

[boilerbabe]

30. I like your evaluation ! n/t

[JNelson6563]

31. Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean!

In an hourlong interview on a public radio program in Concord on Wednesday, Mr. Kerry, who two months ago publicly chastised his campaign manager for assailing Dr. Dean, again and again turned questions about his own views into attacks on Dr. Dean, until his host finally politely asked that Senator Kerry use his time to talk about Senator Kerry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/politics/campaigns/09DEMS.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Like I asked you before blm, why not go and post some of the positive developments of Kerry's campaign? ;-)

Julie

[TLM]

48. Positive things about Kerry....

Well that's the first paragraph, then what?

[HazMat]

58. I'd take Kerry's resume over little Howie's anyday

Kerry: almost 40yrs experience fighting for Democrats. Veteran, activist, 4 term Senator.
Dean: center-right governor from a tiny, rural, white state (49th, most major cities are bigger and more diverse than Vermont).

[Skwmom]

51. The corporate controlled press forces Kerry to talk about

Dean because we sure can't count on the corporate press to do their job so that the voters can make an informed decision.

[Eloriel]

55. LOL -- is that why the talk show host had to stop him and ask him

to talk about HIMSELF instead of Dean?

I see.

Eloriel

[HazMat]

59. Exactly. The corporate media needs Howard,

their fake little liberal for Bush to crush. They hate people like Kerry because he's an electable, serious Democrat.

[ozone_man]

36. I think Dean was and is a centrist,

but may seem more liberal now, because he is on the national stage, and the nation as a whole is not as liberal as Vermont (with our Green and Progressive parties). So nationally, Dean seems like a liberal to many. I really don't think he's changed much at all.

One thing that surprises people is that he successfully speaks out against Bush policies, against the war, for health care, for jobs, and that seems radical, or liberal to some, but it's just common sense. He's just got the guts to do it and say it with a clear voice.

I think Dean has been very successful at taking the message nationally and as a centrist, can draw from all sides, including Green leaning, liberals like me. :)

[PVnRT]

37. I can't help but notice this is all in the past tense

As in, you know, it's history, and does not necessarily reflect the present. Is it possible, however remote, that maybe he has changed his mind about some things? Isn't that the whole point of political discourse, to change people's minds? If so, why criticize someone who has?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

43. No! Say it isn't true! Spin from one of our favorite Dean-bashers?

I don't believe it.


:eyes:

[RetroLounge]

45. Shocked! Shocked I say!

Spin? From BLM? No Way!!!!

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

Spin that!

[_Jumper_]

53. Dean praised Bush?

<And whatever happened to the Howard Dean who, when asked to render an opinion about the governor of Texas back in 1999, always gave the same answer: "I like George Bush, he's a good guy.">


Where is the outrage? :wow:

[blm]

54. I don't think Dean was a fan of Al Gore's.

And he probably wasn't too broken up when Gore lost. We'll see what happens when Gore endorses someone.

[dsc]

56. I would like a link of Dean

saying something, anything at all, negative about Al Gore. Hint, the link should be quoting Howard Dean, not some other person. It should be a quote. It should be negative. It should be about Al Gore.

[Scott Lee]

62. Pull up a sleeping bag....this could be awhile.

LOL!

[dsc]

64. Gee

do ya think?

[blm]

65. I said what I think

based on what I've heard over the years in Dem circles. You don't trust it, tough, I don't care.