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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 09:50 AM
Original message
Joe Klein attends a Dean Meetup in New Hampshire
and came away with the impression it was a "cross between a Rotary meeting and a 12-Step program. This is pretty much the same impression I have about the Dean campaign.

Dean and his campaign have made the entire primary about PROCESS and the horserace and few creative policy discussions. Most of the legwork on policy came from other camps. The other candidates crafted policy proposals and delivered them to not much fanfare from the media.

Some of you dislike Klein, and he has given some reason for that....he tends to be brutal....however...Klein is a master wordsmith and knows "trickery" when he hears it.

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/columnist/klein/article/0,18471,538907,00.html
>>>>>>>>>
Dean tricked out his speech—a prepared text, delivered indifferently—with references to the power of the special interests and the need to clean house in Washington. But no amount of populist cant could disguise the fact that the speech was about process, not ideas. Indeed, Dean's whoosh of a campaign hasn't featured very much creative policy thinking. Think about it: Apart from his early stand against the war in Iraq, what has distinguished Dean's candidacy from that of the other Democrats? The propellant for the Dean surge has been almost all style and process—the Internet successes; the monthly Meetups; his stirring, plainspoken pugnacity; the joyful abandon of his campaign—and the sense of community he has aroused in his supporters.

After the Cooper Union speech, I attended a Dean Meetup at a restaurant in Manchester, N.H. It was a cross between a Rotary meeting and a 12-Step program. Attendees were encouraged to share their tales of life in the political desert before Howard came along, their experiences converting others to the cause, and their dreams for a Dean presidency. They organized phone trees, door-to-door campaigns and "visibility" at the town dump. The atmosphere in the crowded room was warm, benign and bursting with righteousness. Clifford Ross, who has been involved in New Hampshire primary campaigns since 1960, said, "I've never seen anything like this in politics." And then he made a more militant point: "It's the difference between Pericles and Demosthenes. When people heard Pericles, they said how well-spoken he was. When people heard Demosthenes, they said, 'Let's march.'"

Dean is not very well-spoken—not, at least, in terms of classical rhetoric—or particularly thoughtful, for that matter. He makes no bones about it. "When people get in my face, I tend to get in theirs," he told the New York Times last week. "I tend to be reflective rather later than sooner." This is not a very presidential quality. Last June, Dean told me that he understood he would have to grow as a candidate in order to succeed, that it was time to move his campaign beyond attacks and anger, to take a run at the vision thing. That lasted about a week. "It's hard to do vision in a crowded field where everyone's attacking you," campaign manager Joe Trippi told me last week. "But we're going to try to address the larger themes of this campaign with a series of speeches starting in a few weeks."

But one wonders about the quality of those speeches. I pressed Dean last week about his proposal for a national dialogue about race. He had talked about the need for white people to understand the impact of racism on African Americans. But what did black people need to understand? Did he plan to go into the inner cities and talk about the self-destructive culture of poverty, as Bill Clinton had? He bristled, of course: "The African-American community doesn't need any lectures from me. That's not my style." Oh, yes, it is—and Dean's future may depend on his ability to slow down, stop hectoring and lay out a vision that shows some deeper understanding of the cultural and substantive differences confronting the nation.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 09:55 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:05 AM
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. If Klein is your idea of unbiased
then there's nothing more to be said...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Klein has taken shots at ALL of them...that shows some lack of bias.
He has made MANY, very substantive criticisms of Bush, too.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. No it doesn't
How many of Kleins OTHER articles have you posted here?

It's YOUR bias that's disingenuous.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. No...he's been hardest on Bush most of all.
And Klein is not an attack journalist. He's a brilliant OBSERVER and he sees every bad point as well as every good one, which made his reports on Clinton during the 92 primary, must read journalism, and propelled Primary Colors into a best seller. It wasn't based on hate, it was based on affection and honest observation. Klein still admires Clinton alot and the Clinton's have a very cordial relationship with him still today.
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mbali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
87. Bottom Line
Failure to kiss Dean's ass = Dean bashing
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
91. Klein is disingenous at best
as evidenced by his "Anonymous" authorship of "Primary Colors." If you don't think that Klein being a panelist in a TV show to discuss the book that he wrote, all the while pretending he wasn't the author, shows something about his character then perhaps you find nothing wrong with the likes of Jason Blair, or with CNN planting a question about MACs vs. PCs on the Rock the Vote "debate."
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Cool down, blm
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 10:23 AM by CWebster
Find one thread where I launched an attack on Kerry or any of the other candidates.

If I have questions or concerns about candidates, I raise the issues, and I have reacted negatively to other candidates and their supporters when I viewed the criticism as deliberately skewed or twisted to score political points.

Dean isn't perfect, I'll be the first to admit that he isn't slick, but note that I have become more fierce in my defense of Dean as a response to attacks--Surely there is a lesson to be learned there and the point I was trying to make.


I see the original message was deleted. It wasn't intended as an attack, but then I am not trigger happy on the alarm for all the times much worse has been directed my way.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. At least
they didn't advertise alerting you.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yeah
but they were offended, so it was an educated guess, considering how nasty things get by comparison.

I just can't see starting threads to launch attacks on other candidates when you are a recognized partisan. The intent is so obvious and it backfires.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. I'm not trigger-happy myself
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 10:53 AM by blm
if you noticed.

But where do you think the fierceness came from? Could it be that a full year of attacks made on Kerry's character and lies about his record? Distortions of the record of one of the best progressive liberals in office and turning him into a centrist Republican? Turning the best fighter we ever had against the BFEE into a shill for them?

Puhleeze....Dean's record gets exposed and you call it an attack. Kerry's record holds up under closer scrutiny, he's campaigning consistent with that record. Dean's record doesn't reflect his campaign year conversions, at all.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Fine
Anytime Kerry wants to start fighting...He can count on me 100%.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
44. If it's against Kerry its an attack
but if it's against Dean is just criticism. Months ago I went along with the "all criticism is attack" because all those Kerry supporters were whining about Dean attacking Kerry.

Where's the consistency? Not in the Kerry camp, that's for sure.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:58 PM
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
98. Oh good god... can I at least respond to this hit piece?

There are no personal attacks in this so why is it being deleted?


"But where do you think the fierceness came from? Could it be that a full year of attacks made on Kerry's character"

Attacks that are accurate and well deserved.

"and lies about his record?"

What lies... that he supported the IWR, that he voted for the patriot act, that he voted for no child left behind, that he flip flopped on the Iraqi war when he saw his support for it was hurting his bid for president, or that he voted for 350 billion of bush tax cuts and is now trying to keep part of the tax cuts you claimed he was so against?

What has been said about Kerry that is untrue?

"Distortions of the record of one of the best progressive liberals in office and turning him into a centrist Republican?"

There is no need to distort anything... Kerry turned himself into a centrist republican by voting for half of Bush agenda over the last three years.

I don't care how progressive he was 10 years ago... he's spent the last 3 year f-ing the dems over and kissing W's ass.


"Turning the best fighter we ever had against the BFEE into a shill for them? "


Kerry did that himself... and so far Kerry's fight hasn't brought down any of his frat brother's partners.


"Puhleeze....Dean's record gets exposed and you call it an attack. "

Because the exposure you manage to drag up is some misrepresented quote from 10 years ago in response to a hypothetical question, or a piece from some far leftist green whose idea of a scathing attack is to say Dean's environmental record was as bad as Al Gore's. You quote stuff from folks who attack Dean for daring to allow any development in VT at all, yet ignore the fact that the balanced budget Dean accomplished through this economic development allowed for stronger environmental policies than exist in most of the country to be funded and more land to be protected than ever before by anyone. You also ignore the fact that even the folks who had a beef with Dean on one issue or another, still supported him for the most part.


"Kerry's record holds up under closer scrutiny, he's campaigning consistent with that record."

What holds up is that he voted for no child left behind, the IWR, the patriot act, and 350 billion of bush tax cuts. And now he's against the war, the patriot act, and wants to keep parts of Bush tax cut. Yeah Kerry record has been consistent over the last few years... consistently bad.


"Dean's record doesn't reflect his campaign year conversions, at all."

What conversions... Dean was moderate centrist Dem in VT, and he is still a moderate centrist Dem now. Just because Kerry's DLC tried very hard to label Dean as a far left fringe anti-war nut, that doesn't make it true and when their spin fails, that doesn't mean Dean shifted positions.

Dean's record is one of getting healthcare for 99% of his state, protecting more land than anybody ever did in VT, cutting child abuse rates in half and child sexual abuse rate by 70%, passing civil unions despite massive opposition and death threats, reforming welfare the right way with healthcare, child care, and job training... and doing it all while balancing the state budget every f-ing year.

That's what Dean was doing while Kerry was seeing how far up W's ass he could get his nose. And that is why Dean is wining and inspiring people like never before, and Kerry is losing.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
131. I Would Call This An Attack On Kerry, CWebster
Don't forget that we have bookmarks, and I knew you were bound to say something off-the-wall in at least one of them. This didn't take me long to find.

----------------------------

Oh please John, can I call you that, Senator -or do you prefer to go by JFK?

You are a phony--an empty suit, always talking the talk, posturing, putting out a slick, well-groomed, distinguished appearance--forever broadcasting 30 year old stands taken to boast of current relevancy. Your medals don't impress me--or the entire mentality of honoring barbarism, as if it was something to be rewarded. My father fought and withessed the hell of war and he was a strong and intelligent man who didn't feel the need to play macho games on the one hand, and, at the same time, promote peace as a result of the horrors of the experience. But with all things, John, you want it both ways, you want to use it to strut your military credentials while you distribute snapshots with John Lennon to attest to your anti-war sentiments.

We can see through you and your aloof elitist upper-class airs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=5695#6023
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. And they complain that I say Dean is a compromising centrist
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 04:06 PM by blm
who's masquerading as a fighting populist when he never GOVERNED as one. Then I get bashed for Dean bashing, when many Kerry bashers have a typically acidic and demeaning approach to their posts.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Some are turned off and some are turned on
by their meetup experiences. Thanks for clueing us all in on that Big Piece of Truth.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Not going to comment except to say that Klein is a
piece of shit. Since I try to be fair....he pissed on my candidate, Clark, so I'm not going to take his word for anything when it comes to Dean.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. heh...Klein has "pissed" on all of them at some point.
At least it proves his lack of bias. ;)
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Ah true but it is the quality of the
criticism that bothers me. I'm still creeped out because Klein was saying Clark looked stupid in his black turtleneck. I think it hurts twice as much because I thought he looked hot. lol
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. I thought he looked "dreamy" too.
Kucinich looked good. It's a great look for almost anyone.
;)
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
57. I have to agree with Klein on that one :-)
Although I think Clark is very, very handsome, black turtlenecks don't do it for me. I think of creepy middle-aged men going through mid-life crises :-)
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. "bursting with righteousness"
other notes:

Dean told me ...it was time to move beyond attacks and anger.

But I thought he never attacked anyone?
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. doesn't sound like
any Meetup I've ever been to. Klein is an asswipe - as he proves over and over again.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Just another dood
telling some what they want to hear and others what they don't.

Candidate bashers have a great friend in Klein. He's sorta the chief sewer rat.
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. how's your man Kerry doing with his new campaign manager?
Kerry's flopping, so let's attack Dean, it's good to see that now Kerry's supporters have adopted Kerry's failed strategy too! Maybe it will work as well in persuading people as it did for Kerry (sarcasm off) :eyes:
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I finally get it...
No criticism of Dean is valid! Everything makes sense now. Dean in 2004!
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. So far
very little criticism of Dean has been valid.

Very litle criticism of Kerry has been valid. Kucinich, Clark, name it. Very little valid stuff.
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. nope, Joe Klein is a poser
and his opinions are worthless. Cite someone IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY who actually gives a damn about defeating Bush, and then I'll see your valid criticism. Whiny crap from Joe Klein doesn't count IMHO.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I only cite my own opinions. n/t
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
75. Certianly there is valid criticism of Dean... this just isn't it.
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 01:46 PM by TLM
Most of that piece is just snide crap making fun of the meetup and the people who support Dean. There was nothing of substance in that piece at all.

It is a pretty low, yet typical tactic... when you can't attack substance, go after the act of supporting a guy. It is an attempt to embarass folks for going out to meetups by likening it to a 12-step program.

If you want to criticize DEan, do it based on facts and substance... not snide cheap shots and distorted decade old quotes.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Insult the candidate's supporters, most of whom never been active before
and then try to get them back
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Yet another example that Kerry's campaign slogan should be...





"Vote For Kerry Or You're Stupid!"


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. You just proved Klein's point. It's process not policy for Dean supporters
You all seem pretty arrogant with the teflon granted Dean by the press for so many months. Wait till that teflon gets stripped away by the corporate media and it returns to Bush.
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. where was the teflon last week my friend?
when sharpton and edwards were race-baiting and the media ran nothing but Dean's confederate flag comment out of context for a few days, where were the Dean-loving media? You see what you want to see...
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. The teflon was on NPR Weekend ATC when they....
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 10:54 AM by AP
...played Dean's stump speech where he was actually talking about race in a reasonable manner, and made a comment about confederate flags, and then pretended that was the comment the Democrats were so upset about, and then played comments from reasonable people saying the comment was reasonable, and then played a long segment from lunatic Zell Miller criticizing Dean, which totally left the impression that the only criticisms of Deans reasonable actions were insane rantings, like Zell Millers.

NPR never bothered to present the truth, which was that Democrats were criticizing Dean's comment in an Iowa newspaper in response to a question about the NRA in which he, unreasonably, said he wanted to be the candidate "for" confederare flag waivers.

THAT'S how the media protected him from damage on this issue -- by totally lying about the story and presenting it a way that made it seem unreasonable to criticize him.

Listen to the lie yourself: it's in the first minute.

rtsp://real.npr.na-central.speedera.net/real.npr.na-central/atc/20031109_atc_03.rm
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. you're wrong
if you look at the context of the rest of his statement, in fact, the sentence right after the "confederate flag" statement, he said we need to bring more voters into the party to beat George Bush. in the context of all of his statements, that statement is off-color at best, and definitely not racist. It was a poor choice of words, for that, he should have (at the debate) apologized and said "i made a poor choice of words, but the issue stands". You can take it out of context all you want, but Sharpton and Edwards were race-baiting for points, and nothing more IMHO.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. Saying you were starting a discussion about race relations
when you made your remark but the article shows you were actually defending your NRA support and we're supposed to swallow that? Dean inserted race to DEFEND his stupid remark. Now THAT is an underhanded tactic.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
83. BLM you know this is untrue...

The author wrote about the gun issue and selected Dean's quotes from an interview, which is made very clear in the article.

which I assume is why you now make the claim without the quoted bit from the article or a link, because the quotes show Dean said nothing about the NRA in his statement. Rather the author did that. The author dropped Dean's quote on the flag from an interview covering several areas. That was not a transcript of the interview as you attempt to present it, but a quote the author selected.

Dean said nothing about the NRA in that quote, not a word.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #83
135. You have NO proof of that because the writer DID NOT talk about race.
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 04:22 PM by blm
And I have that on good authority from someone at the Register who heard the interview. I'll post the article again for you TLM, to refresh your memory.

If Dean said anything about race relations then why doesn't he release the transcript from the entire interview? Demand the campaign release a transcript, so you don't get BIT IN THE ASS with it when the GOP uses it in the general election. Dean would have done it last week if he had it.

You know it.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm."We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
56. NPR lied. They reported the story as if the reaction was to the stump...
...speech. It was to the newspaper interview.

Listen to the interview. What Steve Inskeep says at 52 seconds is a lie.

No matter who your candidate is, you have to criticize this.

Are you telling me honestly that you condone this kind of misrepresentation?
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. Bull (n/t)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #64
80. "Bull"? Hello? Listen to the report. They play a tape of Dean
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 02:19 PM by AP
giving his stump speech. They say he apoligized for it.

The reports makes Democrats sound like idiots because the tape they play was reasonable. Nobody complained about it because it was reasonable. What wasn't reasonable was saying that he wanted to be the candidate "for" people who waive the confederate flag.

Now the casual NPR listener thinks Democrats are idiots for complaining about something that was reasonable. The kicker is that they weren't complaining about that. They were complaining about the Iowa Register (?) interview, which wasn't reasonable, and, at the very least, poses a completely different set of issues than the ones raised by the stump speech.l

You can't deny it. The media helped Dean by re-framing the issue and then by inviting the insane Zell Miller on the radio to be the voice of opposition. So, NPR listeners are also left with the impression that the people who did complain about Dean share "fellow"-Democrat Zell Miller's impressions.

The NPR report is TERRIBLE journalism. Why do you think they're doing that? You think they're still going to misrepresent facts in Dean's favor if Dean's the nominee?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
78. And the only reason it was a poor choice of words...

was that Dean should have known that the douche bags he's running against would jump at the chance to try and save their sinking ships by taking Dean's words out of context.

Dean could say, "I saw the chared black remains caused by the fires in california." and the asses like Kerry would run to do a press claiming Dean blamed minorities for the fires because he said "I saw... the... black... caused... the fires in california."
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Maybe NPR can edit together a story pretending that already happened?
Eh?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
117. AP, can you please point out this question?


"NPR never bothered to present the truth, which was that Democrats were criticizing Dean's comment in an Iowa newspaper in response to a question about the NRA in which he, unreasonably, said he wanted to be the candidate "for" confederare flag waivers."

What question was that quote in response to, exactly AP?

I read the piece and there didn't seem to be any direct question prior to the quoting of Dean's statement.

Care to quote exactly what this NRA question was?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. Baloney. The media RAN with Dean spin saying the comment was about
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 10:59 AM by blm
Dean starting a discussion about race relations when he was really defending his NRA support.

The Dean camp sent out the February tape where he used it in regard to race, but that was PURE SPIN since his current reference to the flag was DIFFERENT and used to defend his NRA stand. Race relations was never in that interview at all.

So please...who got spun? Only a few sharp reporters picked up that Dean's REAL quote was about his NRA stand.
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. who got spun?
in my opinion, you:) that's completely an opinion issue and nothing more, and I think that most people got it right after the initial negative coverage. you don't, but hey, that's your opinion.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Ok. Then show me where race relations is discussed in the article.
And if you can show it, then I'll agree that I am the one who was spun, and not you or the media.

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

>>>>>>

"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.

Dean often touts his high rating from the NRA, which he attributes to Vermont's scant gun restrictions, low crime rate and tradition as a hunting mecca.

Dean said he wanted to protect hunters' rights to use semiautomatic hunting rifles in Vermont. But the question about the ban referred both to federal and state law.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
100. Why are you trying to cross the article with Dean;s statement...


Read the quote BLM, it flat out says that Dean;s response was in an interview. And where in the quote does Dean say a word about the NRA?

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."


Not only does he not address the NRA in that quote, as you claimed, he does address what he has been saying about reaching out to a broad cross section of democrats.


So why act as if Dean was talking only about the NRA when saying something that he's been saying for ten months about reaching out to the south? It is clear by the quotes that the author is focused on the gun issue, not Dean.

The article focused mainly on the gun issue, however the quote shows Dean used the same line about reaching out to the south that he has been using about reaching out to the south, and used it about reaching out to the south again in this interview.

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
96. THen why have you stopped quoting it BLM?


If the meanign of what Dean said is so clear, why stop quoting it right after I called you on the fact you were misrepresenting the quote?

"Dean starting a discussion about race relations when he was really defending his NRA support."

No, Dean's quote about race relations and reaching out to the south was used by the author in a piece focusing on the gun issue. Even the piece itself says they did a whole interview on the subject of the south.

The exact quote shows clearly that Dean said nothing about the NRA is his statment about the flag, rather the author of the piece was focusing on the gun issue. These little marks "" mean something BLM.


"The Dean camp sent out the February tape where he used it in regard to race, but that was PURE SPIN since his current reference to the flag was DIFFERENT and used to defend his NRA stand. Race relations was never in that interview at all."

Dean has been using that same line for 10 months about race relations and reaching out to the south, then he does an interview about ways to reach out to the south, uses it again, but because the interview also covered guns and the author chose to focus on guns, that means suddenly the whole 10 month history of Dean's use of this statment has changed?

No BLM, it is you who are spinning as ususal. Dean's comment, can clearly be seen in this piece in quotes, and the NRA is not mentioned by Dean in that quote at all. WHich is obviously why you stopped quoting it or linking to it.


"So please...who got spun? Only a few sharp reporters picked up that Dean's REAL quote was about his NRA stand."

Nope it was about his wish to reach out to southern voters, just as it has been for the last 10 months.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. You're wrong. And I've put up the piece many times.
You find race relations in that article and I'll go away. But, you can't, because the article and the interview was about GUNS.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #104
118. All you can do is stick your head in the sand...
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 10:59 AM by TLM

You've gone from claiming that Dean was talking about the NRA, to now just saying the interview was about guns, because the Dean quote says nothing about the NRA. As I said, the author did focus on guns, but despite your attacks and whishful thinking, Dean's quote is clearly being made in reference to reaching out to the south, has he has been for 10 months.

AP claims that Dean was responding to a question about the NRA, but the quote clearly shows there was no such question.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #118
134. You're being absurd. I always said the interview was about the NRA
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 04:15 PM by blm
and gun control. Whether I use the exact same wording in every reference is immaterial to the FACT that Dean was NOT talking about RACE RELATIONS as he claimed was his REASON for making the flag reference.

Funny you apply standards to me that you don't apply to a candidate running for PRESIDENT. Sheesh.

Read the article again...NRA, GUNS, DEAN and the CONFEDERATE FLAG and NO RACE RELATIONS TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE! And you dare to say I am the one lying.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm."We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. i wish you got the Boston Globe
you could see the article today that sums up how i feel about Kerry much better than I could do: I used to support the man, it was his nomination to lose, and he has, and this is where your supposed criticism of Dean re: process not policy is rendered moot: Kerry lost support because HE, not Dean, failed to elucidate a coherent view of what he stands for, and noone is responsible for that but Kerry. Maybe you see in Dean a little of what you would have liked to see in Kerry would he have made the right decisions in his campaign instead of taking the wrong turn at every crossroads:)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Kerry's exiting CM said the Boston Globe is setting a record for hostility
to a hometown candidate.
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. well, if the hometown candidate were a little stronger
in his convictions, maybe that would have been different. I personally wrote them a 4 page letter roughly a year ago now after Salon said that the Globe was dredging up info. on kerry's former "playboy" lifestyle to smear him with. In the letter, I threatened to cancel my subscription if they didn't stick to substantive issues. Would you call the 7 day piece they did on him an attack? Quite to the contrary, it often presented him in the very terms his supporters would wish (in fact, Kerry supporters posted it every day it ran), and showed pics. of him with Kennedy when he was younger. It was definitely not negative, and it was often quite flattering. I would expect Jordan to say that, but just because he says it, it doesn't mean it's true.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Big difference between the news staff and editorial page.
Just like the WSJ editorial page is an RNC annex while their newspages are top quality.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
85. The NY Times owns the Boston Globe. The NY Times had an ink
deal with Enron. They were part of the huge pyramid schem in which, if you signed a deal with Enron, they'd PAY YOU, report the deal in their SEC filings, watch their stock shoot through the roof, and then sell it to unsuspection state pension fund members in CT, OH and FL (all Bush-friendly states).

I think the BFEE is taking Kerry down through the NYT/Boston Globe for past slights. I'm not saying that Kerry isn't open to attack. What I'm talking about is motivation. The motivation is to protec the BFEE by destroying candidates in the primary so they don't make it to the General Election.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
48. Process not policy?
As in voting for Iraq War Resolution that gave sanction to Bush's Iraq policy, and then pretending it was a vote for peace?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. that preserved the UN and prevented extension of hostilities
in Iran and Syria? That put UN inspectors back in Iraq?

SOME people paid for those concessions, IG. Those concessions weren't handed to them on a silver platter. They were FOUGHT for. They were then PAID for.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. The IWR was our Munich of 1938
in which we appeased our budding dictator by letting him do what he pleased in Iraq.

Had Kerry voted against IWR, we would be discussing today who Kerry's running mate ought to be in 2004. As it is, I would rather go for Wes Clark who has a better military record than Kerry and is better on the issues, without nuances and waffling.

Kerry is the clear underachiever!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Then admit, you'd rather NOTHING was negotiated
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 12:38 PM by blm
and Bush have his way with the real blank check he wanted.

Because that's the bottom line. Bush HAD the votes for HIS way. Some Dems NEGOTIATED for the better bill that didn't result in the dissolution of the UN.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #59
101. Once again BLM, Kerry's compromise resulted in net progressive loss.


And you defend Kerry craven support for the war by saying it was a compromise to keep Bush from also going after other nations... yet then you attack Dean for compromises that made net progressive gains.

Kerry is a coward, plain and simple.

He could have stood up and voted no, but he was afraid that would hurt his career. Had he voted no, we'd still be in the same mess, but he would be the front runner right now and would have a leg to stand on when he speaks out against the war he supported.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #54
112. gawd i hate one issue voters....
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. If you are one of the military families that lost a loved one in Iraq
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 07:39 AM by IndianaGreen
or has one serving in Iraq, this "single issue" as you called it is the only issue that matters.

War and peace, life or death, are issues that proportionally trump all others. Kerry knows that. When we needed him most, Kerry failed. And Kerry continues to fail!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
109. It' s typical of you to post a hit piece on Dean...
all because your candidate, Kerry, is not the frontrunner.

Joe Klein is not even a credible source to quote on Dean or on any of the other candidates and I'm surprised that you would treat his article as if it were.

Maybe if Kerry paid more attention to the process that you seem to disdain he might be in better standing in the polls. Judging from the problems he's been having with his campaign manager{s} and his aides it doesn't surprise me that he's slipping. Kerry won't be elected just because of a good campaign manager; if he wants the nomination he will have to have the most appeal to the voters and he will have to work hard for it. Somehow, I believe that Kerry took his campaign for granted and assumed that he would be the nominee. Ted Kennedy endorsed him, which isn't surprising since he is a fellow Senator. He has also received other endorsements I can't name off the top of my head (but I'm sure you know them by heart}.

Dean didn't start off with anything---no fancy endorsements or support from the Washington "insiders". Just a computer and a bunch of folks who believed in him.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
111. you see further proof here at DU, everyday..100 times a day
any comment, criticism or question about Dean is met with the following:

so...how your candidate doing?
you are just a Dean hater
way to go...doing Rove's work for him
can't we all just get along?
the more you attack him the more i love him
you just inspired me to give more money

rarely does a supporter respond to the actual meat of the issue raised. rarely do they talk about his ideas or point to any detailed plans. it's as if all that, all what generally passes for the substance of a compaign and a candidate are irrelevant because he's raising money. it's all "talk to the hand cause i ain't listening"

they are enthralled with his platitudes about change and the ability to raise money and it doesn't seem to matter if he has no experience on the world stage or has shitty communications skills or what i view as problematic character flaws. it doesn't matter that the only detailed policy that has gained air time is his plan to raise taxes
or that most of the coverage is about his gaffs and campaign/process.

in the general election, what is our campaign slogan? Vote Dean 'cause he's pissed and has lots of money? or maybe "vote Dean 'cause he's going to raise your taxes?

all these things are verbotten to discuss. just close ranks, attend your meetings and dig deep.

it's mostly the chant" Dean in 04...deal with it."

dealing with the thought is making me lose sleep.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #111
115. I know. I used to think he could win along with the others
and said so openly that ALL of them can win. That was before I saw his poor debate performances, his change of positions on key platform issues, and the certain sense that the media is setting him up as Bush's opponent, so they can tear into him later.

If the media was just reporting news about Dean, then why still be selling him as an antiwar liberal when if they examined his record as governor these past 11 months? They would KNOW by now he is nowhere close to being a liberal, and not antiwar. And many of his seemingly more liberal positions are new to him this election year.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. "That lasted about a week." (Moving from attacks and anger to vision.)
I've noted this before: In Dean's Bryant Park speech, he does the same thing. He starts with a series of angry criticisms of Bush. Around half-way through the speech he says, "they" say you can't win without telling people what you're for, so here's what I'm for. He gets two maybe three ideas out (home visits for new mothers, and one or two other health care programs he enacted in VT) and then went right back to angry criticisms of Bush and Ashcroft.

It was very noticeable, if you're paying attention.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. Whatever you're thoughts about Dean or Klein
Don't miss the poll

57.6 Dem
39.3 Bush
3.1 Neither
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
32. I liked Klein's bio of Woody Guthrie
What I've heard and read about him since then have greatly diminished my opinion of him, though.

At the Meetup I coordinate, we all had very candid discussions about whether Dean should opt out of public funding and the Confederate flag "flap". We also discussed plans for flyering at a big local event coming up, and wrote 31 letters to undecided voters in New Hampshire.

That sounds like democracy in action to me.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
34. doesn't sound like any meetup I've been to
but ofcourse I only go to the ones in Madison, Wi. We discuss what is going on in the campaign, maybe watch a video, occassionally have a guest speaker, and plan visibility and campaign events. No big deal. At the last meetup we had a very good discussion of the flag controversy with some people supporting Dean and others saying he could have been stated things differently. I think Joel Klein shouldn't base his conclusions on one meetup in one city in one state.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
36. I've been to lots of meet-ups
and the one he describes sounds like nothing I've witnessed.

Julie
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Zolok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
38. I got no brief for Governor Dean
(actually it's his supporters I can't stand for the most part)
But Joe Klein is a king hell @SSHOLE from start to finish.
He managed to churn out a Time Column last week that asserted Joe Lieberman was the only honest iconoclast in the race!
Cliched nonsensical riddled with beltway jargon...it was an ignoble effort.
So it's no wonder he has goen to one Dean event and made a snap decision based on that...it's his style....short attention span, narrow minded, superficial...everything a reporter shouldn't be quite frankly.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. He didn't say Joe was most honest over all....
just his sticking to his Iraq position was more honest.

Big difference.
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Zolok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. No offense to Senator Lieberman's supporter hyar on the DU
or elsewhere...but kudos from Joe Klein will do the Senator little good in the weary wicked end.
He is just looking for a nice sob story candidate so's he can write that "poor honest Joe Lieberman got jacked up by everyone" bushwah come this time next year.
The punditariat love to write crap like this....makes them seem all emotional like the non-pod people in their audience.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
45. Why you would stoop
to posting an article that basically mocks well meaning democrats is beyond me.

People are getting along and fighting for a common purpose! CULT! 12 Step Program! HI Bob!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Because of articles like this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=82766

Why is it okay to post any kind of article about any other candidate, but not Dean?
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Funny!
Did I post that thread? Did I post IN that thread? Have I ever condoned that kind of thread? Have I ever insinuated that it is OK when it's about someone else and not when it's about Dean?

Why is it that some people jump to INSULTING, mean spirited conclusions about other people just because of who they support?

Someday you're going to have to be nice to Dean supporters.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Odd that you would use that as your example
Since the criticism in it is from Kerry's own team.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Attack me or refute the article...your choice. Refute Klein's point
that policy is left in the back seat in Dean's campaign. It seems Trippi and Dean try to excuse it but don't disagree.

So...refute the article.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Yeah...and how many Deanies said I supported a babykiller?
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 12:42 PM by blm
A Bushlite?
A Bush-enabler?
A BFEE shill?

Kerry supporters were attacked for months here. Cry me a river, now, that you get a taste of it from a MAINSTREAM source.

My beef with Dean is that he is running as someone he is NOT. Someone who governed completely the opposite of the image he is trying to portray now.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Stop changing the subject
unless your defense is, "other people do it".

If you don't like it, DON'T DO IT.

All you can do to defend this TERRIBLE thread is claim that Kerry was attacked a long time ago. You don't even get my point, that THIS IS WRONG. What other people have done at other times HAS NO BEARING on the fact that it is wrong to mock and insult people who are TRYING to help. Everyone who does it is wrong.

I've never done it, so I am in a position where I can say STOP.

Your beef with Dean is well known. Your mission is well known. It's shallow. And you never stop.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. The fact that the campaigning Dean is not the same as the governing Dean
is a VALID point that has the potential to bring down the entire Democratic ticket if he is at the top. I don't trust him. YOU do.

But when did noting the discrepancy between a candidate's campaign rhetoric and his governing record become a shallow point?

Are voters supposed to have faith in what the candidate says when they place their vote or are they supposed to scrutinize the candidate's records before they vote?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #72
88. I didn't. I believe his CAMPAIGN team is relying on supporters' faith
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 02:40 PM by blm
in Dean OVER his actual policies and avoids indepth, comprehensive discussions about those policies because Dean's record doesn't hold up to his positions today.

This is a criticism of that campaign tactic. Not shallow swipe at his supporters, but an observation of how the campaign fosters that faith OVER examination of policy.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. Some edits are in order then
Because your original post DIRECTLY quoted the shallow insult about rotary clubs and 12 step programs. And then you posted part of the article itself, where you made sure to include the quote.

Now you can go back and claim you had no malicious intent, but you'd have to edit your original post.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #95
105. I stated clearly that I think it's his campaign.
Klein's got a big part of the story, I only wish he'd expose the campaign and its style MORE...lay it all on the line. Not big on policy details, but big on demagoguery and the illusion of a populist movement.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #88
102. More of the same attacks... Dean supporters are just stupid.

"in Dean OVER his actual policies and avoids indepth, comprehensive discussions about those policies because Dean's record doesn't hold up to his positions today."

Yep we're all just stupid and know nothing about Dean's record or his policy and if you could just educate us morons we'd all flock to Kerry.

We couldn't possibly be informed and simply think Kerry is an asshole.


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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Oh you're SOOOOO picked on.
cry ME a fucking river. Other than "babykiller," the other terms are appropriate criticisms, in my opinion, from some guy who wants my support for President and, when the chips were down, ignored what I and millions of others were PLEADING with him to do and made a miscalculating, purely poltical decision. He made his bed.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
47. Joe Klein of "Primary Colors"?
This is the same Joe Klein that was interviewed endlessly on the TV networks about "Primary Colors" and its author "Anonymous", even though all the insiders knew that Klein was the real author.

Klein took the public for fools then, but never again shall we believe him.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. Clinton's like him. They even gave Klein the big exit interview
in 2001. They have a very cordial relationship with him.
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
60. How dare he decline to lecture black people!
After all, they need to understand that the self-destructive culture of poverty is entirely *their fault* and get us off the hook for paying for all those social programs <sarcasm off>

I double dare him to walk up to Sharpton and make the same comment. BTW, isn't "klein" German for "small?"
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
66. This must be more of that giant media conspiracy pushing Dean, right?


LOL! I guess the evil Rove media machine must have missed this one in their quest to push Dean, huh? Funny how when Dean gets good coverage it is a Rove plot, but the second there is a snide op ed bashing Dean supporters, suddenly the media is respectable and their perceptions of Dean are spot on.


"Apart from his early stand against the war in Iraq, what has distinguished Dean's candidacy from that of the other Democrats? "

Since Kerry, Edwards, Clark, and Gephardt are all following in Dean's footsteps, not too much. While the other dems have been struting in front of an air craft carrier or posing with Bush in the rose garden, or trying to prop up W's tax cut for him, or voting for war with iraq, Dean has been running the best campaign the dems have ever seen by not being them.



"The propellant for the Dean surge has been almost all style and process—the Internet successes; the monthly Meetups; his stirring, plainspoken pugnacity; the joyful abandon of his campaign—and the sense of community he has aroused in his supporters. "

And his healthcare plan, his sucess by six plan, his NAFTA reform plan, his corproate tax reform plan .

"Dean is not very well-spoken—not, at least, in terms of classical rhetoric—"

Yeah he does have that "talk for 10 minutes yet say nothing" skill that Kerry and Clark and Gephardt have down so well. I do not want someone good at "classical rhetoric" and if Dean's level of support is any indication, neither do most folks.



" But what did black people need to understand? Did he plan to go into the inner cities and talk about the self-destructive culture of poverty, as Bill Clinton had?"


Ahh so basicaly poverty is the fault of those darn blacks and their poverty culture... and Dean needs to tell them so. What a twit.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. lol
the guy goes in with an impression already in his head and suprise suprise that's what he saw.

It's been a bad week for Kerry.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. With Wes Clark in the race, who needs Kerry?
I don't hear Clark giving 6-minute torturous dissertations on why a pro-war vote was a pro-UN or pro-peace vote. I don't see Clark having a shitty $75 haircut, when a $7 Great Cuts haircut will do.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. lol
did he really pay 75 bucks for that monstrosity? :D
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Kerry probably uses scented toilet paper, made in France
The French prefer coloured toilet paper, the standard shade being pink. The French also prefer scented toilet paper to give the bathroom a special touch.

http://www.worldtoilet.org/advertorials/On_a_roll.htm
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
84. At this point it had damn well better be about process
we are attempting to herd a group of new to the battle , Bush weary independent souls who are unaware of the basic process. Unlike Klien's smarmy inside the beltway viewpoint, most of these folks joined the campaign because of how they felt and were motivated enough by Howard Dean's "process driven" speeches to join up with the movement. Because they found kindred spirits.

This isn't wonk central, and unlike the traditional campaigns of the other very worthy opponents, we are populated not by party framework folks, but by previously uninvolved outsiders coming to the fore.

Klien attended that Meetup to fit his preconcieved and draft written articles viewpoint, and thus was unable to relate to the honest expression of what this is. Klien would be loathe to see he's becoming an anachronism. Yet his , and anyone else who makes a living based in Washington DC, is looking at their way of life changing in a way they can't quantify or name. It's a grass roots movement that can only be viewed by Klien , Josh Marshall, and others of their ilk, with a jaundiced eye, having seen one too many of these movements crushed under the jackbooted heels of the political establishment and their cozy little K street Tea parties.

Howard Dean's movement is composed of the waiters and waitresses that serve Joe Klien at his Georgetown soirees, the small business owners getting crushed by the corporations whose contributions pay for all that free wine and endless buffets. It's only logical that someone who finds himself on the wrong side of the kitchen door like Klien did would just assume these folks are so naively out of touch as to be moved...MOVED I tell you! by a political candidate! Why the last time THAT happened , it was demi- god Clinton doing the moving, and (ahem) just look how that turned out, you silly people!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Excellent post, Capn Sunshine!
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 02:41 PM by IndianaGreen
The Beltway Bandits are totally disconnected from the country they claim to speak for.

On edit: spelling.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. I agree
I see regular people who are concerned about what's happening to this country under Bush coming out and trying to do something about it.

They're either accused of being "sheeple" or ridiculed for being naive. Is it any wonder people don't want to get involved?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #84
92. Those people who BELIEVE Dean is a populist but his record proves he isn't
and THAT'S the point of why the campaign is based on the faith of the supporters and NOT on the examination of record or policy positions that don't match that record.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Dean is a centrist, all Dean Meet Up attendees know that.
the only people that yell that Dean is a populist are the Kerry supporters, perhaps out of desperation that their candidate trails people like Gephardt.

If Kerry is such a damned liberal, why did he vote for IWR? Even Robert Byrd voted against it, and Byrd is no liberal by any stretch of the imagination.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #84
99. Dean is ABBI...."Anybody But Beltway Insider" and the Jaded Pols don't get
Edited on Tue Nov-11-03 02:57 PM by KoKo01
it. They never saw the anger over "2000 Selection, Iraq War Resolution, the Corporate Sleaze and the Elected Politicians in Bed w/Bush sleaze." They never will acknowledge it's there, because they are to busy collecting their speaking fees and hob nobbing with their fellow cronies in the press and the White House to think that there might be something going on out there that THIS TIME they just might NOT be able to control.

Joe Klein and the rest speak to themselves. They don't speak to us. We here have moved beyond being anything but amused at what they write. When we first came here many of us were still in awe of the Press. Those days are gone.

We know, now, who owns the Media and probably 3/4's of our Politicians. We didn't when the polls opened in November, 2000. If Dean/Kucinich can express for many of us what others keep their "fingers in their ears" to keep from hearing then so be it. That's the way it is until we have some real dialog again in America.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #99
127. It's the DLC INSIDERS who seem to hate Dean the most!
And understandably so. Dean poses a direct threat to their (failing) business as usual, their candidates that feel entitled to a nomination even though an "outsider" has done the work of getting the most support from the democratic voter base.

They don't want to admit that a successfull candidate against AWOL will have to connect with the voters from the gut, as WELL as the head.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #99
137. Dean was insider enough to be head of the NGA and a DLCer.
And in charge of getting governors elected in 2002. If you think they don't choose an insider for those positions, you're wrong.

AND, YES....WHO OWNS THE MEDIA? WHO pushed Dean for 10 months ever since he chose the tactic of attacking the Dem party and the other Dem camdidates to make his name? WHO pushed Dean as a liberal, antiwar candidate when he was neither liberal or antiwar, collected tons of liberal antiwar $$$$$$$, his compromising centrist governance is their to scrutinize, and yet they STILL say he's an antiwar liberal 11 months later?

AND YOU TRUST THE MEDIA? They built him up to divide the Dem party and they'll tear him down when it's time to strip the teflon they've GRANTED him for the last 10 months.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
90. I, for one, am truly impressed at the attack on blm here
:eyes:

God forbid she post something that Dean supporters don't agree with.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. She can post anything she wants for all I care
Personally, I think she's a bit fixated on posting negative Dean threads/responses, but she obviously feels very passionate about it.

I'm a former Kerry supporter and have gripes about his votes on the Patriot Act and tax cuts (he disappointed me on IWR, but I actually gave him the benefit of the doubt on that even though I strongly disagreed with him on it).

I wrote a letter to Kerry in late 2001 encouraging him to run and, even though I now support Dean, I don't regret writing that letter and would support Kerry if he gets the nomination. Instead of grinding an ax against him, I'm putting my energy into the campaign I support.

But to each his or her own.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #97
106. I expect SCRUTINY from Dems, not blind allegiance
for some Libertarian leaning centrist who comes in and magically transforms himself into a fighting populist.

Democrats are going to get killed in 2004 because of Dean not sticking to his principles. If he did his record as governor would match his campaign rhetoric now. You don't like the fact that anyone notices. But, the whole country will notice when 200 million dollars worth of ads showing Dean's own words played over enough times to sink the rest of the Dem tickets in crucial areas.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #106
119. BLM you keep screaming this meme...


" If he did his record as governor would match his campaign rhetoric now."

Do tell us how his record as governor is so vastly contradictory to his current policy, and be specific.

I see his record as on of a moderate dem, which is exactly what he's running as... so where is this huge difference?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #119
136. NAFTA, Assault Weapons Ban, Yucca Mt., judicial nominees.
But, most obvious is the fact that he kept liberals at bay while aligning most often with the GOP. He was never considered a fighting populist by himself or anyone in Vermont, and now he campaigns as one.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. Balanced Budget Amendment
Cuba sanctions, civil liberties, Affirmative Action,
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #106
128. How conservative of you!
So you want Dean to basically be unchanged from what he was as governor.

Howard Dean, you evil man! Now you unlearn all those lessons right now before we taunt you a second time!


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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. Dean hasn't changed!!
Has Dean ever said he changed his opinion based on new facts *AND* explain what those new facts were and why they lead him to change his opinion?
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #90
107. no, it's more like
In an hourlong interview on a public radio program in Concord on Wednesday, Mr. Kerry, who two months ago publicly chastised his campaign manager for assailing Dr. Dean, again and again turned questions about his own views into attacks on Dr. Dean, until his host finally politely asked that Senator Kerry use his time to talk about Senator Kerry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/politics/campaigns/09DEMS.html?pagewanted=2&hp

That obsession thing. One wonders if Kerry and his supporters' time might be better spent focusing on promoting Kerry and his campaign. Other than the occasional staff mix up though there seems to be little to say. :shrug:

Julie
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briggen Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
103. Dean isn't any more aware than the rest.
None of the candidates have a clue, and neither does Bush. We are are losing our structual foundation to satisfy the greed of Wall Street.

There is a solution to the erosion of American jobs and only congress can provide the solution. But, they won't without enormous grassroots pressure. Click on/or copy and paste the link below:

http://www.geocities.com/wittcourt/

Jim Grimes
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TSIAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
108. kick (nt)
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
110. Hilarious. And kind of frightening.
Klein only says what Deanites have been saying for months, and he's pilloried for it.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. equally hilarious and frightening is how this thread proves Klien's point
as the Dean supporters attack and deflect. anything but discuss.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. Yep....no policy discussion allowed. No scrutiny of Dean
will be tolerated. Because Dean is a centrist we are ALL centrists, now. Kinda like Garrison Keillor and "We're all Republicans now."
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #116
121. So this is how it works now... you post an op ed hit piece...

and when people take issue with it, argue it, point out how it is wrong... you then, instead of responding and pointing out why the claims are valid, you whine that no discussion is allowed.

So basicaly if anybody responds with anything but agreement, then they are somehow squashing any discussion or scrutiny of Dean?

And BLM you keep attacking Dean as a centrist when Kerry's own DLC said Dean was a fringe leftist activist. Care to show me the quote from Kerry saying the DLC was wrong to say that or does he agree Dean is too his left?

Or did Kerry's DLC just lie to attack Dean?

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #121
125. Deanies don't point out where it's wrong
they've just attack blm for posting the piece. In the piece, Klein (who I dislike intensely) asks a very relevant question which, if answered by the Deanies, would put this issue to rest:

"Apart from his early stand against the war in Iraq, what has distinguished Dean's candidacy from that of the other Democrats?"

Is the answer "His policies" (and if so, then what policies are different than the other Dems), or is it "His character and personality", or "His electability", or what?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #116
122. Just more "Oppose Dean at all costs". What a snoozer.
You know, if some of you Deanophobes even feigned a debate with some of the facts it would be refreshing. Instead, you come off as kneejerk Dean haters with....dare I say it...positively conservative verve!

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. The point of this thread is that
debate with the Dean teamers are all about process and rarely about policy positions and whether there are any problems in store for those positions that are based on political winds, since it is highly doubtful principled positions would change for an election year. We're gonna get killed on this issue alone.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. The point of all anti-Dean threads: Stop him before he wins!
It's "policy" until we show that policies Dean promotes are actually good, or have merit in an election. Then it's "process" until we can show that the way he's handling the campaign is revolutionary and can actually win.

Then, it will be something else.

For the life of me I can't figure out why some of you hate this guy so badly. Is he really that big of a threat? Is he a worse choice than pResident War?


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #126
139. He's not campaigning as himself and that's a big flag.
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 04:48 PM by blm
I've been hard on Dean since I checked into his real record as a compromising centrist but he was campaigning against any Democrat in DC who compromised. It didn't make sense.

Plus, I've been hard on him for calling the others "Bushlite" last January and ever after, because that tactic was NO different than Nader making a comparable claim against Gore being like Bush. And Dean's record showed he was closer to Bush than any of those candidates who he called "Bushlite".

And he was at about 2% in the polls, then, so my criticisms are not based in jealousy as some here charge. They're based in UTTER DISTRUST.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. That sets a bell off here
damn you're right. "He's not campaigning as himself" He is in fact all over the map.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #113
120. Oh please there are at least half a dozen post in this thread

directly addressing why what Klien said is bull.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. as compared to the dozens and dozens of attack and deflect posts.
just about average i'd say....
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. Compare and contrast the Clark/Dean broohah on flag burning
Dean says he supports "protection" of the flag but not a constitutional amendment enshrining it, and he's got thread after thread attacking him for it.

Clark supports changing the CONSTITUTION to protect the flag, and I saw THREE threads total addressing this issue.

Meanwhile, Dean is still getting attacked for the confed flag comment - while the thread shelf life for Clark's outrageous position on free speech was about ten minutes!

The Dean hate threads, on the main, continue unabated.

Attacks on Clark or Kerry here have a nasty way of ending up LOCKED.

Things that make you go HMMMMMMM.........


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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. It's because Dean waffles on the flag
Edited on Wed Nov-12-03 03:55 PM by sangh0
Clark's position is clear. He wants to protect the flag by banning flag burning. I don't agree with him, but his position is clear.

Dean wants "protection", but says nothing about HOW he's protect it, and denies support for the one proposal that's out there - a Constitutional amendment.

And the reason why Dean is still getting attacked over the confederate flag is because he was too arrogant to admit his remark was inappropriate.

Can you answer the question Klien asks?

Apart from his early stand against the war in Iraq, what has distinguished Dean's candidacy from that of the other Democrats?

Is it "all style and process—the Internet successes; the monthly Meetups; his stirring, plainspoken pugnacity; the joyful abandon of his campaign—and the sense of community he has aroused in his supporters."?

Or is it policy? If it's policy, then how do Dean's policies (aside from Iraq) distinguish him from the other candidates?
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-03 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
138. "Extra: Dean Doesn't Meet One Man's Standards of Perfection."
Why? Because his policies aren't all that different from other Dem's policies?

Who cares? It's a complete nitpick.
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