Dean or Clark

[jeter]

I have a gut feeling that this years Democratic primaries/nomination will come down to Howard Dean and Wesley Clark.

So if the choice was between the two, and only the two, whom would you support?

[jeter]

1. I would vote for Dean (surprise, surprise)

Although I want a Dean/Clark ticket. I think that this combo complements each other best.

But Dean, with executive experience should be the head of it.

Just my thought.

Yours?

[Blue Gardener]

3. I'm with you

Still not 100% sure about Clark, a little too republican leaning for me.

[Kool Kitty]

4. Then read a litttle more about him at his

website-www.clark04.com. That should help clear up the republican confusion for you. Oh, and welcome.

[dudrane]

48. Unfortunately if you compare that with the issues link of Kucinich

you find Clark is extremely vague. What he says sounds good but who really knows????? Kucinich is about 5 times as detailed and specific. Furthermore considering how the Iraqi war is going, anyone probably will be able to beat Bush. Even angry gnomes...

[maha]

96. Not so

I've been going through all the candidates sites and comparing them on various issues. What you say just isn't true. Both Clark and Kucinich provide a great deal of detail on issues on their web sites. If anything, Clark provides more detail than Kucinich, not less.

[bitchkitty]

178. Ha! Grumpy for Prez!

.

[boxster]

16. A few days ago, he said that military hospitals should provide abortion

services. Sound Republican to you?

[ozone_man]

23. Republican leaning?

He is a Republican. Anyone who voted for Reagan is a Republican pure and simple. What better litmus test could you have?

Jimmy Carter was/is my favorite president and he voted against him.

[wryter2000]

26. My husband voted for Reagan

And he learned. Dean's my guy, but I'm not holding an old election against a good democratic candidate.

[Kahuna]

27. Bull. It might interest you to know...

most Democrats over the age of 40 have voted for at least one Republican during their life. A lot of them voted for Reagan too! A lot of them voted for Nixon. Guess what? That's how Reagan and Nixon won. :eyes:

[jeter]

153. nearly 500 votes.

I think this is the largest I have ever seen.

[Mz Pip]

33. Lots of people voted for Reagan

So many in fact that he won by a landslide. Demanding such ideological purity alienates a huge portion of the electorate. Come election time it might be nice to get some of those votes.
If only Dems since birth count, then we are in big trouble.

MzPip
:dem:

[drfemoe]

172. hey I said the same thing

#170 .. do you think Clark appeals to both 'alienated' and traditional democratic voters? One or the other?

I think Dean's strong suit is the non traditional democrat. edit: and alienated voters .. he doesn't really have the support of the dem 'system' dnc/dlc .. so that must say something about his base.

I think a lot of repups will switch over this time.

Terms like 'liberal', 'centrist', et al are fairly meaningless when used as labels. They are mostly used subjectively and always in a relative manner. My idea of 'reform' or 'progress' may be very different than yours, so to label both of us 'liberals' does nothing to define who we are. (I don't know what that has to do with anything . but there it is.)

Anyway, I'd still like to know what people think about Clark's base of support .. other than the Clinton one .. and I wonder what that says about him too?

[TLM]

86. Dupe

Double post

[TLM]

87. Voting for Reagan I can forgive...

Going to a republican fundraiser in 2001 and saying this about Reagan:


"We were really helped when President Ronald Reagan came in. I remember non-commissioned officers who were going to retire and they re-enlisted because they believed in President Reagan."

"That's the kind of President Ronald Reagan was. He helped our country win the Cold War. He put it behind us in a way no one ever believed would be possible. He was truly a great American leader. And those of us in the Armed Forces loved him, respected him, and tremendously admired him for his great leadership."


He did not just vote for Reagan, he said only 2 years ago at a republican fundraiser how great reagan's leadership was... that I have a big problem with.

If that's Clark's idea of great leadership, how can he be a democrat?

[Bertrand]

138. Reagan was a great leader

that is why he was elected to landslides both times and is the idol of a conservative movement that is in control of Govt. People can be great leaders and have a different ideology than you.


Edit: in control of govt, not society (although they are gaining greater influence throughout it)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

140. Bull fucking shit

tell me how dealing with Iranian terrorist with arms for hostages deals and illegal fucking wars run by the likes of Ollie fucking North not to mention letting our marines get blown up in Beirut is an example of great leadership?

All Reagan did was make people feel good while America in fact declined.

[Bertrand]

150. That wasnt my point

i wasnt agreeing with his ideology or what his actions were, but pointing out that he influenced and persuaded alot of people to his philosophical beliefs while having a great impact on the last 25 years of society as a whole.

[_Jumper_]

167. He was an effective leader, but a terrible president

He had no clue what his administration was doing.

[Bit-Cruncher]

199. "Reagan was a great leader?"

Reagan was suffering from Alzheimer's while still in office. Nancy was President, and Ronnie just talked to the camera. He didn't remember any of it.

[drfemoe]

170. Um Jimmy Carter

was pres when I was in the real estate business .. my best deal was selling a house with a 14% fixed assumable loan. New financing was over 20% !!!! .. I loved JC too, but people had to buy and sell houses... for one thing. I voted for Reagan. Of course if I had known what HE had in mind for the construction industry and tax reform .. anyway I was a repup and I changed .. of course I'm not running for president.

What was that I was reading about Dean, as a democrat, trying to bring all of certain types of riff raff into the 'party'?

That's actually what his campaign does in a way. It represents the ideology that appeals to a wide spectrum of the citizenry.

After spending time on DU and seeing this poll .. I'm wondering what base Clark appeals to.
Is it the more traditional life-long democrat? I know he has a 'grassroots' .. but they might be lifers too.

I'm curious about that. What do you think?

[Jackson4Gore]

77. I agree

[drfemoe]

89. I think we can do better ... but

If Dean wants Clark, I will trust him on that because the Gen sure does have appeal for a lot of folks. I have a lot of problems with him .. but probably nothing that would keep him from serving as VP.

[dobak]

6. wrong reply

[kalashnikov]

25. I think clark should be pres and dean should be VP.

Clarks the more intelligent, more capable person with lots of leadership experience and the experience of making tough decisions. Also, the pres is the one who deals with foreign policy more than the VP and thats where Clark really shines. The VP is more involved with domestic issues and congress, the place where Dean might have a slight advantage.
Besides, a general like clark wouldnt do as well in a post that is primarily advisory in nature. He is much better out front making the crucial decisions.

[mrgorth]

85. More intelligent?

An MD vs a Rhodes Scholar? Isn't that nitpicking?

[SahaleArm]

144. Valedictorian, 1st in his class at West Point.

And yes a masters in Politics, Philosophy, and Economics from Oxford; not to mention a teaching position at West Point.

From 1971 to 1974, Captain Clark served as an Instructor and Assistant Professor of Social Science at West Point, teaching, among other subjects, political philosophy.

[kalashnikov]

163. Becoming a Rhodes Scholar is much harder

than becoming an MD.

Also, Clark originally wanted to become a theoretical physicist before becoming interested in international affairs.

[ModerateMiddle]

179. Oh, hardly

there are lots of MDs that are pretty mediocre at it. How many Rhodes Scholars are there each year? Like 10 or 12? How many docs are churned out each year?

[drfemoe]

173. Yes (to some of that) BUT

Clark is used to taking (and giving) orders. He was in a chain of command and even though he was pretty top dog, he still had other guys telling him what to do. He got fired from his last job because the bosses weren't satisfied . whether right or wrong is not the issue right now. Plenty of people have been fired for the wrong reasons, and that may be Clark's case. The point is, he knows how to work within the system. He was also a lobbyist, don't forget.

Now you have Dr. Howard Dean. He thought about being a teacher. He wasn't a slouch in school, went to Yale. He worked on wall street for awhile in a job that is pretty much self motivated. Then he continued his education to become an MD. MDs don't have to take orders from anyone. In our market, they do have lots of challenges with other people trying to run their business, the AMA, FDA, HMOs, tort lawyers and legislators. But utimately and many times daily, they make the decision that can literally save or lose a life. (I guess there are similarities there with Clark in a war zone ...) Then of course he was governor, another decision making position.

Someone who has spent his entire career being SELF-employed and calling the shots, imo is better prepared to head up the team. "Clark" (in a general way since I'm still not sold on him even as vp) would work well in a chain of command situation, because he spent his career in that type of environment. I'm just saying resume' wise, someone like him would be great as back-up and support.

edit: also .. Clinton is a Rhodes scholar and if you do some research you will find that a lot of restrictive (neocon) legislation was passed on his watch .. so Rhodes scholar does not equal protection and advancement of freedom.

[RandomUser]

176. SACEUR was a unique position during times of crisis

Because of the unique nature of SACEUR, Clark was inside the chain of command and OUTSIDE the chain of command at the same time. He had a degree of autonomy because of his position the the other chain of command.

He held dual titles, SACEUR (European/NATO) and CinC(American), and dual offices and staffs. He had two different superiors -- Secretary of Defense in the American chain of command, and NATO Secretary-General Solana in the European chain of command. He had command of two different subsets of subordinates.

There is literally no other position in the military that is like SACEUR. He not only took and gave orders, but was involved in negotiating with his superiors.

As SACEUR, he was subordinate to Solana. But as CinC, he was outside of Solana's chain of command, and independent of NATO. In his position as CinC, he used his control of American forces as a bargaining chip to negotiated with the Europeans.

As CinC, he was subordinate to Cohen. But as SACEUR, he was outside of Cohen's direct chain of command, and independent of the U.S. forces. He used his position in the NATO structure as a bargaining chip to negotiate with the Americans.

The fact that he was part of two separate chains of command gave him a degree of autonomy and independence from both. He experienced diplomacy and negotiating first hand, since he had to hold together all the various nations, each wanting something different from him.

He did a lot more than take and give orders. To his superiors, he was at the same time a subordinate officer and a non-subordinate independent representative of a foreign power. He was the diplomatic bridge between the two command structures. This is no ordinary military position. It was every bit as much a political position as it was a military one, and required diplomatic skills.

[DUreader]

2. other

[LWolf]

5. other NT

[dobak]

7. Wow!

Has there been a shift?

Or, are there just more Clark supporters online?

[Zynx]

8. My guess is that it will even out a little bit before this is done.

It could be that Clark is more acceptable to those supporting other candidates as well.

[robsul82]

9. Dude, if you think...

...Clark has this kind of lead on DU, you really haven't been paying attention, lol. It'll even out.

Later.

RJS

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Nah, it's just the bitter supporters of other candidates

Who would rather blame Dean for their own candidate not doing well than recognize the fact that each candidate has control over their own campaign and refusal to accept that some have made some poor choices. Ultimately, there will be several candidates in for awhile longer, and Clark won't be getting the votes of those who would be voting for someone else.

[dobak]

22. maybe, but...

Those "other" supporters will throw their support being one of the two once it is just Clark and Dean

I think Clark will attract more of those other supporters

[KaraokeKarlton]

79. Well, they only get one primary to vote in

And most of them will be over by the time the last two of the final four go to the wayside. It's not going to make much of a difference. You don't even know if those who voted for Clark have hims as their second, third or fourth choice. They have an "either-or" choice on this poll but that won't be the case when they head to the ballot box.

[Scott Lee]

35. DU polls are anything but scientific

If you want a bigger and more accurate picture, look at larger broader-based polling. And yes, it still shows Dean leading.

Tissues and grief counseling are now available to Dean haterz. Call 1-800-SOS-ORRY.

[Kahuna]

43. Gephardt opened up a 7 pt can of whoop ass in..

Iowa. Ouch. }(

Don't be so smug. Dean leads, Nh. Gep leads IA and Clark leads SC.

[KaraokeKarlton]

80. But that will be gone in the next poll after Dean gets the endorsements

from the biggest two unions. Gephardt will start to sink in a couple of days.

[FrenchieCat]

83. But not when it comes down to beating Bush.....

They tried to say Dean had the higher percentage......but when we did the math, they were wrong. Won a correction on that today. Got to really watch that Corporate press!!!!
http://www.msnbc.com/news/990895.asp?0cv=KB20

Clark is polling best against Bush, with 45 percent of respondents saying they would vote for him, compared to 48 percent for Bush. Last month, 43 percent would have voted for Clark and 49 percent Bush. In a race against Dean, Bush would win 49 percent of the vote vs. 45 percent for Dean.
------------
Among contenders for the Democratic nomination, Dean and Clark remain in a statistical dead heat, with 16 percent and 15 percent respectively selecting them as first choice for Democratic nominee. Nine percent would select Gephardt, followed by Lieberman (8 percent), Mosely-Braun and Kerry (7 percent each), Al Sharpton (4 percent) and Dennis Kucinich (2 percent).
-----------
A comfortable majority, 64 percent of the respondents, approve of the Bush administration’s policies to prevent and minimize terrorism domestically, however. And that may bode well for the Bush campaign down the road, with nearly half (47 percent) of those polled saying they believe Bush’s handling of the war on terrorism and homeland security efforts is as important as the economy and job creation in in determining their vote next year.
-------------
DOMESTIC SECURITY WILL BE THE BIG ISSUE NEXT YEAR AT THE 9/11/04 REPUBLICAN CONVENTION IN NEW YORK.

[Kahuna]

107. They took their time making the correction... I emailed them...

early Monday about the error. When I checked back early Tuesday evening they still hadn't made the change. So how many people got to see the erroneous information before they corrected it.

A few months ago they posted a poll where they cited that out of 1,100 respondents, less than 300 were Democrats. I contacted them about the low number of Democrats represented in the poll. The SOBs had the nerve to change the story and increase the number of Democrats by 100.... within a few hours. Which leads me to believe since they changed the number of Democrats that the poll was bogus from the giddyup.

[bearfartinthewoods]

44. good question

[Bundbuster]

82. What is this, Dade County?

I just tried to vote for Clark and was denied, getting a "You've already voted" message - I haven't already voted. Who's running this poll, Katherine Harris, Jim Baker, Jeb bushCorp?

[DemBones DemBones]

103. I've gotten that "You've already voted" message a lot of times on

these poll threads. I'm not sure I've ever before been able to post on a poll thread after voting (but I have a posting window open now, and I have voted.) The software doesn't always seem to be able to tell the difference between posting and voting.

Have others had this happen to them? Maybe the admins need to know. . .

[zoeybug]

135. I've switched from Dean to Clark

I just think that Clark will have a wider appeal and a better chance of winning the general election.

I'm glad Dean has been a frontrunner, though, since he's done a good job of voicing the anger that so many of us have felt due to the policies of this administration.

And I'd vote for any of them (except Lieberman) if they get the nomination.

[MODemocrat]

201. I never switch after I've found the best

As much as I love and respect Clark, I don't see why the president needs to be "military".

[ModerateMiddle]

182. My guess is

that there are lots of folks for whom neither of these are the first choice, but they prefer any other candidate to Dean.

[maddezmom]

10. Clark n/t

[Larkspur]

11. Dean is my man!

and he's a winner.

[RichM]

12. Third party, & will urge everyone I know to do the same.

[Zynx]

14. Thanks a lot Mr.I-care-about-my-ideology-more-than-beating-Bush.

Greens are scum and should be publicly shamed.

[Kahuna]

28. LOL!

:yourock:

[mdmc]

55. be nice

those greens are okay. they just need a progressive democrat to bring them home. think of a green as a democrat that has been disappointed. think of a republican as the party to beat.
:dem:

[Yavonne]

102. If the greens run a candidate against us doesn't that mean

we need to beat them too?

[JanMichael]

88. You're kidding right? "Scum"?

Hmm. Seems to me that if America didn't have such an entrenched 2 Party system many, many, DU'ers would be members of more Progressive Parties.

Wouldn't it be grand if we organise new parties as we see fit without getting cursed out by other allegedly Liberal folks?

[Zynx]

101. No I was not kidding.

I firmly believe that the Green party is a serious threat to the Democratic party because there is no rightwing party that takes nearly as many votes from the Republicans. Besides, I disagree with Green party ideology on many counts.

[Bit-Cruncher]

203. Greens are scum?

Why would you call a political party that promotes envirnomental issues, alternative energy sources, peaceful co-existence, and a better life for all scum?

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I'm not a Green, but I think their principles are admirable, and they have defined themselves and what they stand for. This is something the Democratic Party has failed to do for too long now, which is part of the reason why we're in the mess we're in now. The Democratic Party gave this country to the Republicans by default, and many Democrats in Congress have voted against the best interests of all Democrats.

[boxster]

17. Thanks. In return, we'll make sure that Bush gets your name on his

Christmas card list after he's reelected thanks to you and everyone you know.

[kalashnikov]

18. What, you dont think theres a difference

between Republicans and democrats? Do you really belive that? I thought that this current administration would have put that myth to rest.

[mzmolly]

20. We'll miss you after the primaries...

;) :hi:

[_NorCal_D_]

30. "I will urge everyone I know to do the same"

If that's the case, I have a perfect site for you! B-):hi:
http://www.gp.org/committees/forums/phpBB2/index.php

[Padraig18]

36. I can't imagine a more destructive action.

What part about this being about a fight to reclaim our sovereign right to be a self-governing people do you not understand? Did you happen to miss the coup d'etat back in 2000? :wtf:

[jobycom]

47. The Republicans are the third party.

Hey, if you can make blanket statements, so can I! :evilgrin:

Oh come on, Rich, you know I'm teasing!

[TLM]

90. Greens are not scum...

They're just impatient... Mtv McKids who think that if they stomp their feet and hold their breath, the whole country will do a 180 for them. They are the instant gratification generation and their politics reflect it.

You can not however call them progressives, because progress is the one thing that having an all or nothing position can never achieve. Ideological failure is preferable to a green than pragmatic progress.

[jsw_81]

15. Dean

Clark will be veep. He will add a certain amount of 'gravitas' to the ticket and rip Cheney to shreds in their debate.

[_NorCal_D_]

19. Clark leads?

:wow:

[dobak]

24. yep!

I think that it shows that more people would pick him for their second choice

good news

[mzmolly]

21. DEAN!!!

:toast:

[Kahuna]

29. CLARK!!!

:grr:




:7

[kiahzero]

31. Clark (n/t)

[Piperay]

32. Clarks my man...

but I will vote for whatever Democrat gets the nomination.

[DemCam]

34. Clark...go baby

Keep flashing those dentes and tellin' it like it is.

You do the same, Howard. Wes is my guy, but you're second....so both of you give 'em 'hell.

[Closer]

37. Wow

Dean's holding up well when you consider the fact that this is Dean vs. EVERYBODY (all those who HATE him on DU: and we KNOW there are a PLETHORA of you lovely people)

[Renew Deal]

39. It is also a Clark vs. Everybody

and everyone that hates him on DU. It goes both ways. Dean has just been taking the beating lately.

[jumptheshadow]

98. And Clark's doing very well

Considering that his campaign is less than two months old and Dean has been around forever.

[FrenchieCat]

38. Clark...

he's the cooler when pushed ...and that's makes a difference, when you have your finger on that button.

[kalashnikov]

41. where are all these after debate pictures coming from?

this is the second one Ive seen of Dean apparently lambasting another candidate.

[Kahuna]

42. "Dean lambasting"?!?! Yeah right. Dean is in the submissive...

position while Clark is in the dominant position. It really looks like Dean is doing the lambasting. :eyes:

[kalashnikov]

46. look who carol moseley-braun is laughing at.

[kaitykaity]

100. Slideshow here

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/pl/091603wesleyclark&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=3&a=0&t=&prev=2

[psychopomp]

73. They both come off very arrogant

I guess that is what it takes to get to the top office, though.

I think Clark can beat Dumbya.

[GreenArrow]

40. Dennis Kucinich

Got to think out of the box.

I think Clark will be on the ticket, but I think Kerry will replace Dean there. We'll find out soon enough.

[graham67]

45. Hmmm....

I just tried to vote on this poll and got the "you have already voted" message.

[Langis]

49. That's because I logged in as you and voted for Dean

:evilgrin:




j/k

[wiley]

50. Me Too!

I also logged in and got the you already voted thing as well. Is this a Diebold run board or something?

[Kahuna]

51. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[DrFunkenstein]

52. We Need Someone With Foreign Policy Experience

And sorry, but being the Governor of 600,000 people doesn't impress me much. Especially without a major city (which, by definition, would be more than 600,000 people).

[Carolina]

58. good point

600,000 and fairly homogeneous. Clark is the man!
:bounce:

[FrenchieCat]

76. Did you know

that there are 600,000+ Puerto Ricans that live in New York alone?????

[populistmom]

53. I'd have to go with Dean

Although I generally dare not venture into one of these GD Clark/Dean flamefests and refuse to provide anymore anti-Clark ammo, Dean's been my guy for awhile. (Although, my dream is still Gore will be drafted at the convention. I can still dream, right?)

[mdmc]

54. 111 / 116 (clark)

Wow!
:dem:

[Padraig18]

56. Tighter than a feline's anal orfice!

:P

[Rowdyboy]

57. If it winds up Dean/Clark

I can't lose

[Padraig18]

59. My 'dream team'!

:hi:

[Darranar]

60. Dean...

with little hesitation.

And after my support had been given, I'd go to my room and silently weep.

For none of the nine have a true vision for America; a revulutionary one, one that can make American foreign policy and American domestic policy more enlightened.

Kucinich and Sharpton come close.

Dean and Clark, though perhaps more acceptable to the general public, possess nothing such.

[jeter]

61. 124 to 121, as tight as it gets

Slight edge to Clark at this point. But it's still a race.

[Bucky]

62. I'll vote for Clark. But if he wins I'll burn a flag to celebrate victory.

[Kahuna]

63. Me too..

:yourock:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NoPasaran]

69. I go with Dean

And at this point I think Dean/Clark is our strongest ticket. But whoever the nominees are I will support them. ABB!

[loudsue]

65. Damn! I keep coming back here to GD to check this poll...

And it's neck-n-neck! That really surprises me, somehow!

:shrug: Whoduh thunkit?

:kick::kick:

[jeter]

66. It is very close. I'm having flashbacks of Florida, Nov 2000

[CWebster]

67. Well, since Clark declared

his supporters hang out round the clock. They are especially active with this flag burning thing.

They say that after 911 everything changed, but why does it have to be an excuse to grovel in front of military symbols when our military bravado has trapped us in Iraq and alienated us from the world?

Since, philosophically, I reject militarism and all it's attendant priorities as a path to a better future, I can not accept this mindset---although his fans have mellowed somewhat. A small blessing. ;-)

[Kahuna]

68. Oh please. Spare us.

:eyes:

[CWebster]

71. heh heh

Knew I'd snare one of yous.

[Kahuna]

72. You usually do.

:P

[mmonk]

70. Clark of course

(take Michael Moore's advice). Anyway, we really have no idea who is going to win. It may be someone with low numbers now. Things change with events. I wish them all good luck.

[TrogL]

74. It's time for the Hail Mary play

Dean has the charisma.

[Kahuna]

75. First one to 150 wins!

:evilgrin:

[Field Of Dreams]

78. I'm honored to make that 150 for Clark

n/t

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ryharrin]

93. The problem is that half of DU thinks that they're both

republicans. Clark and Dean are both DU darlings, no one ever said Dean was invincible.

[Kahuna]

84. Ha! Clark wins! Mods. Please lock this thread now.

:evilgrin:

[robsul82]

91. 160-159!

I WON FOR HOWARD! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

;)

Later.

RJS

[Kahuna]

99. Not so fast! My fine feathered friend!

Clark now has an 11 pt. lead. :evilgrin:

[Kosmos Mariner]

92. Graham Supporter for Clark, Floridians for Clark!!

Clark is going to be very popular in the Tampa Bay area, making Democrats feel good about their party again, appealing to Independents and moderate Repubs. He is going to help Betty Castor win the open Senate seat, keeping it in the "D" column.

:dem:

[Doctor_J]

129. Exactly

this is what I have been saying all along. Clark can get votes from alot of Smirk's core demographics - Southerners, military, angry/macho white men, and others. I don't really see Dean penetrating Bush's base the way Clark will.

[TLM]

145. Oh course he can....

Military republicans always do well with those groups.

And Clark will also nail down the "I think it is OK to murder journalists" vote and the "I want a lobbyist for military contractors in the white house" vote.

Now the democratic base... that's another story.

[TSIAS]

94. Dean (nt)

[AnnitaR]

95. Clark! He impresses me more everyday! n/t

[CSI Willows]

97. Dean Dean Dean

[kathyanne]

104. Why I would vote for Dean but love Clark

After joining the mailing lists for both Dean and Clark, I believe that Clark might be a great military leader when he has a well-disciplined group like the military under him, but doesn't know how to lead a political or non-military government organization.

I hope that Dean publically announces that he would appoint Clark to be either Secretary of Defense or Secretary of State if he wins because Clark would be a great asset to any organization.

Clark knows how to extract us gracefully from Iraq and understands foreign policy needs better than Dean in my opinion, so Clark should be in a powerful position in the new administration (not Vice President which doesn't have any power really).

Kathy

[Yavonne]

105. WOW...I've ben away too long. Things sure have changed!

Wha' happened? What have I missed?

[bearfartinthewoods]

106. with Clark in the lead, this is very comforting to me.

we all know DU is a leading indicator.

[TLM]

112. Look at all the new accounts....

if Clark could just run his campaign like the clark meme team runs on DU, he'd be in 1st place.

[Kahuna]

116. How many new accounts? Got a number?

Are you saying these are new registrations since last night or over the past few weeks? If it's over the past few weeks I have an explanation for that. DU has been widely advertised by Andrew Sullivan, Freepers and on WABC radio talking heads.

[jumptheshadow]

119. Do you have to donate to DU to vote?

eom

[Kahuna]

120. I have no idea.

:shrug:

[JVS]

139. No

[IheartClark]

147. I just created this account and was able to vote....

Took all of about 2 minutes... this is TLM.

I'll be deleting this account after this post. I just wnated to prove a point.

[drfemoe]

174. ut oh

eom

[bearfartinthewoods]

126. i think there is something in the software that only let's you vote if you

registered before the poll started.

how do we track new members?

[IheartClark]

148. Nope... i just created this account

and voted just fine.

It was very fast and easy.


This is TLM by the way....

[TLM]

149. Even I did not think it would be that easy.

Perhaps a 100 post limit should be set before you can vote in DU polls ?

[Melinda]

204. I voted twice as well.

Well, almost but not quite. My sister just registered here using my pc, and she voted within 2 mins. All I did was log out and she registred... all it takes is an email address and there ya are.

I also know of at least one other long time DUer who has (and uses) at least 2 different accounts and they surely can't be alone -- kind of puts these polls in perspective, doesn't it? :shrug:

[TLM]

141. Read though the thread....

there are several posters with 10 posts or less who just showed up in this thread.

[jeter]

108. Keep this alive.....

Vote DEAN....

[Beaker]

109. The Doctor is OUT.

nt

[_NorCal_D_]

110. Amazing!

Clark has a commanding lead. This gives me a lot of hope. B-)

[Kahuna]

111. Yeah but.. Keep in mind. This poll is for a two way race...

Not a nine way race. If Sharpton and CMB dropped out I think it would help Clark's numbers significantly. However, I do not anticipate either one of them quitting.

[jeter]

113. I think you can stick a fork in this one

Clark wins it. Barely.

[Kahuna]

118. "Barely," Jeter? If Dean was leading by 24 pts...

you'd declare a landslide. :7

[TLM]

114. Also keep in mind...

It is a lot harder to create a new ID and vote again in real life than it is on DU.

[Kahuna]

115. Ummm. Yummy. Sour Grapes.

:nopity: Would you like to have some cheese with the whine?

Of course you assume that Clarkies did it but Deanies did not. Yea, sher babe.

[TLM]

142. Not whining at all, just stating a fact.

Look at the number of posts in this thread from posters with less than 10 posts.

[Ficus]

117. Please NO

neither

[Bertrand]

121. It appears a shift at DU has happened

Why do you think most people here would rather support Clark than Dean? I think a possible factor is that Dean has alienated alot of people with his rhetoric and attacks on other Dems while Clark has remained civil. Since both of them offer similar platforms (although Clarks is probably a little more "liberal"), electability and character probably seperate Clark from Dean in some peoples eyes.

[ramblin_dave]

122. Maybe all the non-Dean supporters are voting for Clark

just to try and knock Dean down a peg. This would mirror what seems to be happening with the candidates.

[RandomUser]

124. Not if you take both polls together

There was another poll started on the same day as this one. It has the entire field of candidates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=689956&mesg_id=689956

Thus, your assertation that the Clark support is mainly from other supporters trying to knock out Dean would be incorrect, unless they're also trying to knock out their own candidate in that poll.

No, the two polls seem consistent. There has definitely been a change in DU.

[ramblin_dave]

127. That poll shows virtual Dean-Clark tie

which suggests that more of this poll's voters who may really want someone else have moved to Clark than to Dean. It could still mean that they see Dean as the one to knock down so their real preference can do better.

[RandomUser]

128. Both polls show Clark leading

But the lead in that poll is less than the lead in this one. So it would mean that more of the other supporters migrated to Clark than Dean. But it does not mean that they all did. If you look at the lead margins, if they had, the Clark lead in the Clark/Dean poll would be even higher. This suggest that the supporters of other candidates split between Clark and Dean, with a greater percentage migrating to Clark. But this also disproves the theory that they all migrated to Clark in an attempt to knock down Dean.

There's enough of them voting for Dean to indicate they're not all voting for Clark solely out of spite. But there's a significantly larger body of them voting for Clark to show they support Clark over Dean.

They like Clark, and it's not because they just want to knock down Dean. The change is real. Clark leads in both polls. Contrast this with previous polls where Clark is always behind Dean by ten to five percent.

The two polls are consistent, there is indeed a change in DU.

(on edit: the lead in the other poll would indeed indicate a virtual tie. But if all the other candidate supporters migrated to Clark, the lead in this poll would be much higher)

[Zero Gravitas]

123. Dean!

no... Clark! No Dean!

Can't make up my mind. When I see these polls I always vote for either Dean or Clark and always for whichever one has the fewer votes at that time.

Overall I prefer Dean, but I still think Clark is more electable. They are both acceptable candidates to me. I am not looking for ideological purity, no candidate that I agree 100% with is electable. I just want someone to get rid of the Monkey-King and return tbis country to sane, civilized government. Then we can argue about who is the most progressive.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

125. That Dean can't win a simple head to head poll here on DU

says something about his inability to win the general election.

[LSdemocrat]

130. It says nothing about his ability to win a general election

This is a hypothetical PRIMARY matchup. If he was losing to a non-Democrat, then I might agree with you.

[sundancekid8786]

132. Clark will reshape the Democratic Party for better.

Dean blows blame and simple and Clark is the man of hour, the man of General Election and is going to be the man for this country the next four years. This not a time to make political statements with nominating Dean, this a time to get America on the right track and take it back from the right-wing leeches of the Bush administration. Clark looks ten times more presidential than Dean, Dean is another North East liberal who went to Yale, man that's a stretch for our Party don't you think. We have the unique opportunity to take the Party back into critical relevance again and people say like Dean always says "It will be safe to vote Democrat again", not because of Dean but because of General Wesley Clark. Twenty years from now people who voted for Wes Clark will call themselves Clark Democrats like in the 80s we had the term Reagan Democrats come about.

[Bertrand]

134. welcome to DU, sundancekid8786

keep an open mind since this is an "open tent" board, meaning it welcomes a wide range of progressive ideologies ranging from the DLC to anarchism.

:)

[TLM]

143. Sundance... how'd you hear about DU?

More to the point, how'd you come to join up and post to this poll with your first post?

Seems to be a whole lot of new posters showing up for this poll... and mostly voting Clark.

[stickdog]

156. Yes. He'll reshape into the Republican Party.

Better for all you status quo lovers.

[Zynx]

155. He'd whoop Kerry's ass anywhere and you know it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

157. Uhh.... that wasn't the point.

But since you insist- Kerry would beat Bush where Dean would get creamed. But the anger loving Democrats seem insistent on nominating Dean, despite his many glaring disqualifiers. This preference for Clark is very telling re: Dean's lack of appeal. So go cry in your teacup if you can't bear it.

[Zynx]

162. Give me three reasons why Kerry is more electable than Dean.

Also, regarding this "lack of appeal" Dean has: BACK IT UP! He has some of the highest favorable/unfavorable ratings of any candidate in the early primary states. Statistics don't lie, but people like you do.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

185. 3 reasons why Kerry is more electable than Dean

1. He's more experienced at the Federal level of government. In fact he's more experienced period. After Gephardt he's the oldest person in the field.

2. His foreign policy/ defense credentials are superior to Dean's, and if not for Clark he'd be the most obviously qualified in that regard. Dean, in contrast,has positioned himself in many ways making him vulnerable to the charge that he is not qualified to be CiC of the military.

3. His demeanor is more suited to the office than Dean's, and frankly, I am quite worried about this in regard to Dean. Someone who says they claim to be more reflective later rather than sooner as Dean has said, makes me wonder about his suitability for the office, and what situations they will encounter where they might react out of emotion rather than reason.

RE: Lack of appeal- Dean is still losing this fucking poll after 500 votes. He is obviously not preferred by the majority of DU.

[robbedvoter]

131. Clark - after village idiot - back to Rhodes scholar

It's time for someone who knows what he's doing!

[Clark Can WIN]

133. I don't want to see us get McGoverned in the GE

It's gotta be Clark.

[mndemocrat_29]

136. I voted for Clark

Though I am a Kerry supporter.

[DemExpat]

137. A Clarkie all the way unless another Dem wins the nomination....

:kick:

DemEx

[Mike F]

146. Neither!

I would vote for Al Gore.

[stickdog]

151. Why did Clark lobby for the indefensible "no fly" list?

www.thenation.com/doc.mht...13&s=jones

CAPPS II provides the US federal government with a full profile on every innocent citizen without making us ONE IOTA SAFER.

Successful US citizen hijackings of US domestic flights HAVEN'T HAPPENED FOR 30 YEARS. And no US citizen passenger has EVER destroyed or crashed a passenger plane. So why are we trying to protect against something THAT ISN'T A THREAT? Because Clark & his neocon buddies IMAGINE that this threat is real and/or relevant?

Meanwhile, CAPPS II helps organized terrorist groups by letting them know in advance what risk level the US government puts on their members in which ticket purchasing conditions -- giving real terrorists a BETTER chance of evading enhanced security and succeeding.

But I'm sure Clark can justify this trade off. See, the CAPPS II no-fly list is not just a convenient excuse to foist Big Brother Total Information Awareness on an unwittingly trusting population. No, sir. See, it's a rational trade off in a world ruled by Clark's fantasies of James Bond villain super-terrorists.

[Kahuna]

152. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:boring:


:evilgrin:

[stickdog]

158. Yes. Anyone supporting Clark has eyes wide shut. (NT)

[FrenchieCat]

154. Stickdog! hey man......

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[stickdog]

159. Yes. You need to be fast asleep to support neoClark. (nt)

[FrenchieCat]

164. Sorry,

But thus far, Clark is the only one to have called PNAC by name on National Television......

Everyone else is scared.

So maybe, it's the others who's eyes are open wide shut.

[stickdog]

165. Any comments about CAPPS II

or are you still asleep at the wheel?

[FrenchieCat]

166. Still sleeping.....

But I am in the bed, thank you......nice and comfy:loveya:
thanks for worrying......

Since you're still up, you should stop alongside the road and do some reading:

http://makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/031112_AComfortingMyth.htm

http://www.arktimes.com/max/110703brantley.html

[FrenchieCat]

169. Oh, and here's another one.....

Here is story on who's running the show of electing the Democratic candidate for the Democratic party.
It's a one act play called: Dean for president: A Democratic tragedy in one act?
http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?catid=1104&custid=67

MATTHEW MILLER
For release 11/12/03

Dean for president: A Democratic tragedy in one act?
By Matthew Miller
Tribune Media Services

Karl Rove entered the Oval Office and the president looked up.

"Close the door," Bush said, signing some papers. "I'll be with you in a sec."

Rove shut the door and took a seat on the sofa. The president joined him on the sofa opposite. He lit up in a smile.

"Well, Karl, I gotta hand it to you," Bush said.

"It does seem to be working, Mr. President."

[The Sushi Bandit]

160. KUCINICH!

[The Sushi Bandit]

161. KUCINICH!

[Kosmos Mariner]

168. kick!

kick

:dem:

[moondust]

171. U.S. desperately needs somebody with international experience.

You know which of these two it is.

[DemExpat]

180. You got it, Buzzz!

:kick: for Clark!

DemEx

[DemExpat]

181. You got it, Buzzz!

:kick: for Clark!

DemEx

[WillyBrandt]

175. First the DU poll, then the Newsweek one

And then Clark's steadily improving web page.

Just when you think it's lost, there's hope again. What a fooking rollercoaster this primary is.

[WillyBrandt]

177. kick

Keep voting!

[bmbmd]

183. I vote "Clark"

even though I respect both men greatly. Seems to me that Dean is a more polarizing figure, and that Clark will be able to "mend fences", so to speak.

[noonwitch]

184. I like both of them, I have a few months to consider

I still think the loser will make a good running mate for the winner, as far as these two go.

[CWebster]

186. Judging by the declared newcomers

whose first post was to vote in this poll, I'd say it's been "freeped".

Anyone can put out the word at campaign blogs. Sort of an obvious ploy.

[returnable]

188. Uh, yeah

And what evidence do you have that it's being "freeped" just by Clarkies?

The word is out on Dean blogs too, kiddo.

[CWebster]

189. Wouldn't know...kiddo

I don't frequent blogs.

But it is the logical conclusion based on post counts - Fairly obvious for anyone who chooses to note it.

[returnable]

190. Hey, Clark is just bringing new folks into the process...

:hi:

[CWebster]

191. Or at least old people with new handles

now that I review the thread.

[returnable]

192. *yawn*

When Dean leads a poll at DU, it's because he has a "groundswell of grassroot support that is unrivaled in modern politics." Or something like that.

When anyone else leads a poll at DU, it's because it's being freeped.

I see. Gotta love the double standard.

But I know ya just love to tweek Clark supporters, CW. So it's all in good fun.

[CWebster]

193. Kerry supporters too

don't forget.

[1songbird]

187. Clark Clark he's our man if he can't do it no one can

[NewYorkerfromMass]

194. a 30 vote, 6%, margin (kick)

[javadu]

195. There Can Be No Doubt About It!!!!

Given that Clark leading the frontrunner by only only 2 points in the NBC poll and given that his campaign is feared by the GOP and the media lapdogs, Clark is fading fast. There can no be no doubt that he will eventually lose. It is an inevitable outcome and he may as well pack up and go home. Is it yet time to challenge this conventional wisdom?

[RandomUser]

196. Compare the campaign times

If Clark is able to do this well against opponents who have been in the race for over a year, what does it say about those oppponents and what does it say about Clark? Do you think any of the other candidates can jump in and be where Clark is in less than two months of campaigning?

Look at the developmen curves of most campaigns, and I would hazard that Clark's nowhere near the end of his development cycle. He'll keep improving. Clark's in a league of his own.

[javadu]

197. I Agree!!!!

I have posted several posts like this on other thread in the past few minutes. I think that this is the only one where I wasn't clear in regards to being sarcastic. Sorry about this. Clearly it has become the conventional "wisdom" that Clark's campaign is fading and I think that it is time to begin challenging that wisdom!!!

I agree with what someone else on this board said (don't remember who, but I don't want to take credit for it), I hope that Clark's campaign continues to fade --- fade all the way into the White House!!!

[Bertrand]

198. Kick

eom

[MODemocrat]

200. I'm still with Dean

But what a good ticket the two of them would make.:bounce: :loveya:

[Bit-Cruncher]

202. Deciding on a President

I want Howard Dean!

The great thing about this country is that you can back whoever you want. This is a democracy, and freedom of speech and expression are guaranteed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Everyone should vote for whoever they want as President, and push that candidate for all he's worth, but let's all be civil about it.

I've grown tired of all political infighting and bullshit. The attacks between the candidates are starting to resemble a war. So let's try to be civil, and get Democrats to work toward defeating George BU$H. All this fighting within the party helps no one but the Republicans.

I'm NOT a Democrat for this very reason. I've been an independent my entire life, and this is the first time since the 1970s that I've backed a major party candidate. I've voted for independent candidates every year since 1980, but I'm considering joining the Veterans Party soon. This is primarily because of the way those currently serving this nation, and all veterans who have served previously, are being treated by the American government on the orders of those within the BU$H administration. I remember the oath I took when I went into the military; "To protect the United States of America from all enemies, both foreign and domestic." I take that oath very seriously even to this day, as do all veterans. Domestic enemies are our main problem now, and America's veterans know it far better than most. If you're a vet, or even if you're not, you might want to check out the Veterans Party, if you're not familiar with it already...

http://www.veteransparty.org/

Gen. Wesley Clark is an admirable man, but I don't feel he's right for the White House at this time. Howard Dean will win the 2004 Democratic nomination. And history has shown that Generals don't necessarily make great Presidents.

We need to stop DEIFYING our military leaders, since they are not GODS, and elect our politicals leaders based on sound principles and the use of common sense. So far there have been 10 Presidents who were Generals: Washington, Jackson, W. Harrison, Taylor, Pierce, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, B. Harrison, and Eisenhower.

I'll discount George Washington as a military General, since his experience in the military was limited to 3 years in the Virginia militia as an aide to Gen. Edward Braddock during the wars against the French and Indians. Washington became Commanding General of the Colonial forces out of the respect that he had earned in the colonies, and his limited experience in the Virginia militia, which was more experience than most. But he was not a military man, as his actions during the Revolutionary War proved, only luck and the help of the French allowed our nation to become a reality. At the conclusion of the American Revolutionary War, the suggestion that George Washington become king that was circulated in the Army's upper ranks. Washington reacted strongly against the idea, saying, "no occurrence in the course of the War has given me more painful sensations." Washington's time in office was primarily spent trying to keep the nation together. Other than that, he did little.

Major General Andrew Jackson was the Commanding General who led his troops to victory at the Battle of New Orleans against veteran British troops, and had already served in Tennessee's Constitutional Convention, the United States House of Representatives and Senate, and on the Tennessee Supreme Court, and he served in both the United States House of Representatives and Senate again after resigning his commission before becoming our 7th President. 'Old Hickory' was the only General to become President that was fully qualified for the office, and his term in office was responsible for the creation of a strong Executive Branch. Jackson rewarded many political supporters with government jobs. His critics called it the "spoils system." And they were right. But Jackson also vetoed the charter for the second Bank of the United States on the grounds that the bank was unconstitutional, and favored eastern manufacturers instead of the common people. He was right there too. His Presidency was mediocre at best, due to the corruption that surrounded him.

Our 9th President, William Henry Harrison, was the General who led the colonial troops in the battles against Tecumseh, eventually killing Tecumseh at the Battle of the Thames, when Native Americans started to create an alliance under Tecumseh to protest the white men's encroachments into their lands. His victory over the Indians at Tippecanoe led to his campaign slogan of 'Tippecanoe and Tyler too.' Harrison died in Washington, a month after his inauguration, becoming the first President to die in office.

Zachary Taylor, our 12th President, was a career military man, his nickname was Old Rough and Ready, and was the General who lead his forces into hostilities along the Rio Grande that precipitated the war with Mexico. He then captured Monterrey in September 1846 and, disregarding President Polk's orders to stay on the defensive, and defeated Santa Anna at Buena Vista in February 1847, ending the war in the northern provinces. He was elected President afterward leaving the military and died in office in 1850, after fomenting considerable animosity with southern states over the rights of slaves which would eventually lead to the Civil War. The only positive aspect of his administration was the treaty between the U.S. and Great Britain stipulating that any canal constructed across Central America was to be neutral and that neither country could colonize any part of Central America.

Our 14th President, Franklin Pierce, was a Brigadier General under Zachary Taylor during the Mexican War, and appeased the South at home and schemed for territorial expansion abroad. The failure of his foreign and domestic policies prevented his renomination. He died in Concord, NH on October 8, 1869, in relative obscurity.

Ulysses S. Grant, was appointed Commanding General of the Union Army by Abraham Lincoln in 1864, when General George B. McClellan was allowed to fully show his unfitness for command. McClellan then decided to use his political clout in a futile run for the Presidency against Lincoln in 1864, confirming that Lincoln had made the correct decision. Grant was elected as our 18th President in 1868, and Grant showed his unfitness for the office from the start. He had a weak cabinet, confused domestic policy, and many corrupt associates. Grant maintained Federal forces in the South, and during his administration the Freedman’s Bureau, which helped blacks transition from slavery to freedom, was dismantled and led to the system of separate but equal in the south that existed into the 1960s. He won reelection in 1872, but the Panic of 1873 graft scandals close to the presidency created difficulties for his second term. Black Friday, Credit Moblier, tax corruption and the Whiskey Ring were just SOME of the scandals that marked Grant’s administration.

Rutherford B. Hayes, our 19th President, was a Major General during the Civil War, and pursued a conciliatory policy toward the South. He withdrew the troops from the South, took a conservative position on financial and labor issues, and urged civil service reform. Hayes served only one term by his own wish, and spent the rest of his life in various humanitarian endeavors. Hayes continued the reconciliation with the southern states, but the corrupt businessmen and beaurocrats already in place constantly undermined this process. Hayes ended reconstruction, withdrawing the last federal troops from the South before the work was finished, which was a result of the compromise resulting from the deadlocked presidential election of 1876. His reforms were rendered largely irrelevant by Congress, and labor and financial legislations benefited businesses at the expense of the working class. Hayes was nicknamed, "His Fraudulency," because of the alleged "stolen" election of 1876.

Our 20th President, James A. Garfield, was the last President to be born in a log cabin, and he had a promising career during the Civil War, rising to Major General of Volunteers. But he resigned in 1863, after his election to the House of Representatives, where he served until 1880. Garfield was considered a great orator, and was elected President in 1880 on the 36th ballot, but his administration was barely under way when he was shot by Charles J. Guiteau, a disappointed office seeker, in Washington on July 2, 1881. He died in Elberton, N.J., on September 19, 1881.

Benjamin Harrison, our 23rd President and grandson of William Henry Harrison, was a Brigadier General during the Civil War. Harrison was a graduate of Miami University in Ohio and took up law in Indiana, where he became active in Republican politics. He won the Presidency in 1888, defeating Grover Cleveland in his bid for a second term in office. Cleveland won the popular vote, but Harrison won the vote in the electoral college. Electric lights were installed in the White House during his term, but his wife never turned them on because she was frightened of the switches. As President, Harrison failed to please either businessmen or reform elements in the Republican Party. In foreign affairs he backed Secretary of State Blaine, whose policy foreshadowed later American imperialism. Harrison was renominated in 1892, but lost to Cleveland.

Our 33rd President, Dwight David Eisenhower, originally won an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1909, but was turned down because he was too old. He had done odd jobs for a couple of years after graduating high school, but he received an appointment to West Point in 1910, and graduated in 1915 with his commission as a 2nd Lieutenant. Eisenhower served with Gen. Douglas MacArthur in the Philippines from 1935 to 1939, and Army Chief of Staff, General George C. Marshall, brought him into the War Department's General Staff. In 1942 Eisenhower was placed in command of the invasion of North Africa. In 1944, he was made Supreme Allied Commander for the invasion of Europe. Eisenhower served as Army Chief of Staff from November 1945 until February 1948, when he was appointed President of Columbia University. In December 1950, Truman recalled Eisenhower to active duty to command the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) forces in Europe. He held this post until May 1952. Eisenhower was elected President in 1952, and through two terms, he tried to moderate domestic policies. He sought peace through Free World strength in an era of new nationalisms, nuclear missiles, and space exploration. Eisenhower was responsible for the creation of NASA, and was the first President to use federal troops to enforce desegregation. He created alliances to resist the 'Red' aggression in Europe, Asia, and Latin America. The Eisenhower Doctrine of 1957 extended commitments to the Middle East. The Cold War, the first military advisors to the French in Viet Nam, the dissatisfied Cubans leading Castro into power, and many of the struggles in the Middle East today can all be laid at the feet of Eisenhower.

Of all the Presidents mentioned who were Generals, only Andrew Jackson, Old Hickory, was qualified to be President, and none can really be considered good Presidents. General Wesley Clark isn't a politician, and has yet to define a Presidential policy concerning everything a new President will encounter in his first few months in office the way Howard Dean has. Clark would make an excellent Vice President, and this would allow him to learn the duties of the office prior to running for President. After all, they didn't make him a General when he joined the military. That happened in stages, as he learned how to lead his troops.

If Clark happens to win the nomination, I'll support him against BU$H, since anyone is preferable to another 4 years of George BU$H. But I don't think that will happen, and believe Howard Dean is our best chance for the Presidency. No other choice makes sense.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

205. kick

[Beaker]

206. kick

nt

[jeter]

207. i'll give myself another shameless kick