USA has to become a dictatorship before it can appreciate democracy

[kalazh]

I think that it is time for the majority of “passive” Americans to experience the grasp of the dictatorship. More than 11 generations have taken our democracy for granted. They have no sense what are the dimensions and borderlines of democracy are. Therefore they think no matter what Bush does it is all democratic because he is a democratically elected president. I tell you I have a close friend from Eastern Europe and he told me that not a single country from the former Soviet Block would ever never tolerate the kind of crap what Bush and his neo-cons imposed upon us. He said that the whole countries would be out in the streets if anything like “ a freedom to spit outside of your house “ or Patriotic Act would be imposed upon them. So I thought may be it is a time when little dictator like Bush goes even further and declares himself a “ruler for eternity” then may be someone can wake up. What do you think?

[Some Moran]

1. Bullshit!

Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!

Nobody took American democracy for granted until the Great Southern Fundie woke up and created apathy through its merger with neocon bullshit.

[kalazh]

2. I like the

response. Thanks

[AP]

3. FDR would stick his cane up your ass if he were alive.

[kalazh]

4. I am sorry man

but if that is what it takes to wake up this nation

[AP]

9. I think poverty made the point just as well in the 30s.

[kalazh]

12. I like

Chavez

[DebJ]

14. and its coming again soon in most areas of our country

[DebJ]

11. too bad FDR and his cane aren't in the White House right now

[AP]

34. Me too.

Hey, I like your posts.

[DebJ]

5. The 65%of people who don't vote, and the many of them who are too

lazy to even form opinions or look for facts, take democracy for granted. That's the bulk of the American population. Democracy requires participation, and most Americans won't leave their lazy ways behind unless facts are forced upon them.

[kalazh]

6. Debbie

so you agree with me?

[DebJ]

10. I don't agree that eleven generations took our democracy for granted

but I do believe that most of the baby boom generation has fallen asleep and that the generations after that are even less active and concerned and aware. I believe our education system has dumbed everyone down. History is rarely taught in high school and below as the history of ideas, and the pursuit of actualizing conflicting ideals. Instead, it is names, dates, places that no one remembers later. Democracy requires dissent, arguments, discussions....but very few in our current younger generations have any ideas at all what there could be to argue about. The complacency and dumbing down was assisted by periods of strong financial growth that spoiled way too many of our population.

[kalazh]

15. Debbie whoever you are

Ilke what you are saying and you are talking like a PhD condidate. The key word here is "spoiled" and that is what I think too.

[DebJ]

17. the 'trying' part of completing my degree is financial

somehow I'm going to kick 10 grand in debt in the butt and get back to school by next fall. Time is wasting.

[DebJ]

16. thats why I'm trying to complete my degree to be a history teacher....

[kalazh]

18. No I think you should go

furhter and get your PhD and teach students.

[info being]

21. They think they are "better than" all that

I think people who don't vote feel superior...the "I don't give a shit" attitude is empowering. I know cuz I used to be there.

[DebJ]

7. First mistake: "democratically elected" president. Ha.

[kalazh]

8. He is

not a democratically elected president
He was appointed

[DebJ]

13. yep.

[Homer12]

19. Over-used cliche's

"Nessecity breeds invention"

"You don't know what you got, till it's gone"


Most of us on DU see the thrashing of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution that Bush and Ashcroft and his neo-con cabal; Our eyes are opened to the fact that this country actually is poised to be taken over by a very small group of rich white men.

Most Americans either don't care, some don't want to care, or others are afraid to open their eyes to the fact that Bush was not elected, is abusing his power, Bush is controllefd and is a puppet of the neo-cons and the fantaics chrisitan's, that they are being lied to 24/7, etc...

Kalazh is sayting that maybe the only way THESE americans will open their eyes is if they are forced.

[info being]

20. Are you kidding?

My wife is from Eastern Europe and they enjoy WAY more freedom there. They would never tolerate the police state we have here.

I don't think he ever will declare himself ruler for eternity...the whole idea of Neocon / NeoFascist thought is to say one thing and do the other. The idea is to create a populice unable to think critically and then use the words that make them all warm and fuzzy. That way, they'll never figure out what you're up to.

[TennesseeWalker]

22. The HELL with all that.

I'm not letting less than 20 percent of the population drag me into a dictatorship just because they're too ignorant and lazy to research history and current events. Dictatorship is NOT American, and I will not take it, even for "educational purposes".

I don't think this can happen. You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not ALL of the poeple ALL of the time. That's one of the first political statements I can remember, from the Nixon years. I had hoped I'd never have to put it to real use again.

People are waking up. Let's see what happens to the Reich in 2004.

[DivinBreuvage]

37. Right on, TennesseeWalker!

I'd agree that people are waking up. As I posted on another thread this morning, I think it takes time for a significant number of people to realize when America has turned down a really bad path, particularly since we're exposed to a constant stream of filtered news and bias. It takes time for people to come to understand that their personal perception of things awry, rather than the omnipresent voice shouting "nothing to see here, everything's fine", is the correct one, and it takes time for them to discover that most of the people around them feel the same way.

I also think part of the problem is that many of us (myself included), are unwilling to take the first step, although we'll gladly follow someone else's lead; so there's another time factor in waiting for leaders to come to the fore, and then sifting those leaders until you find one who has the requisite charisma and talents to effectively carry the banner.

Let me be a little blunt here. I think all this talk about America being a nation of slaves and cowards comes from people who need to read a little more American history.

Françoise

[amazona]

23. i don't believe this is true

When the Caesars put an end to the Republic, the people did not rise up and throw off their chains; they were too busy fighting off the barbarians or what have you. All a fascist has to do is to keep the people pre-occupied with an external "threat," however illusory, and the majority of people will go along to get along.

My experience of human nature is that suffering, most times, causes people to turn against each other and attack those closest to them. Chickens trapped in a too-small pen do not rise up and conquer their oppressor; they start chewing off each other's feathers. Most people are chickens. Was it Aristotle or Plato who defined us as "featherless bipeds?" If Whistleass declares an open end to elections and says the times are too perilous to consider changing leadership, then a significant minority will go along and say, "OK, cool." The more people sacrifice, the more invested they are in telling themselves it wasn't all for naught. So if a dictatorship is established, and huge numbers of people lose their chance to buy medicine or own a home or send their kids to college, they will enshrine these sacrifices in their own minds as part of the war against terror and kid themselves that it's somehow something noble to be a dupe of the Whistleass.

If we have an outright dictatorship, there is no hope at all -- the brave minority that doesn't have to hear voices on the radio to tell them what to do will be jailed or possibly killed. How long was it before a free republic returned to Rome after the Caesars?

I think if you allow Whistleass to boldly establish an open monarchy or dictatorship, it will be hundreds if not thousands of years before the damage can be undone.

[kalazh]

24. May be

that is what it takes to go through all that stuff before we can go further.

[Scott Lee]

25. "fighting off the Barbarians"? Hell, they WELCOMED them

Such is the precursor lesson from Rome. When the Hordes showed up at the gates, the people of Rome pretty much said "come on in, who gives a damn anymore?"

Is that the mantra of the USA these days when it comes to our Constitution and democratic system - "Who gives a damn anymore"?

I'm beginning to think it is.

[DivinBreuvage]

38. The Roman Republic is a poor comparison

The people did not rise up and throw off their chains because the Caesars didn't put them in chains. They had been in chains under the Republic, which was a government of wealthy men for wealthy men despite some token concessions wrung from them by the masses in times of civil unrest. In fact Julius Caesar leveraged himself to power in part by taking the side of the people against the aristocrats. And though the title of Caesar remained with Rome until it fell, the lives of the men who held the title were frequently short and ended nastily.

I think you are right about the tendency of humans to strike out laterally, or at people below them, rather than at people at the top who may perhaps be more to blame for some of the problems they suffer. But there's a vital issue that never receives proper consideration from the "America is a nation of slaves" crowd: I'm not aware that the advent of the Caesars significantly worsened the standard of living of the Roman masses. But in America it's a question of increasing unemployment, lowered wages, inaccessible health care, bankruptcies, home foreclosures, and so on, for people who haven't had problems with those things before. THAT is the factor that convinces nations that the club at the top isn't getting the job done.

Françoise

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. "Become a dictatorship"?? Too late, look around, we're already there.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

35. Took the words right out of my mouth....

thank you!

[ElementaryPenguin]

27. I, for one, think you may be on to something.

I've said time and time again that it would be hard for me to believe that many other countries would accept the theft of the presidential election, and the instigating of war based on a phony threat - without a MUCH GREATER FUCKING REACTION FROM IT'S PEOPLE!! American sheeple have simply become so disconnected from the democratic process and are now so indifferent towards everything political that perhaps the only way to truly sober them up into becoming responsible citizens is for them to experience a horrific fascist administration like our present Fourth Reich!

[Penible]

28. WOW

<p>It is astonishing that any American would desire a dictatorship for ANY reason.

[ElementaryPenguin]

29. I don't think he's asking for one - but suggesting that we HAVE one

And pathetically - perhaps this fact is what it will take to motivate the American public to make their democracy a reality once more! Sort of like how the impact the reinstatement of the draft would have on the pro-war or indifference towards war that many Americans (including many young people) now have! These things do suck - but we seem to be drifting in these awful directions.

[Karenina]

30. Seem to be?

SEEM TO BE???? My dearest EP, forgive me. I'm a bit out-of-sorts as of late.

[kalazh]

33. What is

EP?

[kalazh]

32. Thanks for the

support

[MrPrax]

31. Flawed Thesis?

The US might have always been a oligarchy and the odd bits and pieces of 'social welfare' and 'enfranchisement' are simply part of maintaining systemic stability and support...
Who is saying that democracy is an ideal anyhow? There are many people in many countries that believe there is too much freedom and 'democracy' is simply a ploy by a 'minority' to grab power...
In other words, I am not convinced that 'democracy' is very widely supported anymore...corps., dictatorships, militarists and religious fundiementaists hate it...take those factions out of the equation and you are not left with a lot of supporters.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

36. The only thing that would really do it is if you took away their cable tv

said only half kiddingly...

[jpgray]

39. This is what I really hope is not true and never comes to pass

And that is why I will support ANY of the Democratic candidates, even a worthless husk like Lieberman, against Bush. It buys time, and I refuse to believe only a terrible disaster will bring about the public. If we have to have a disaster, I want all options to be exhausted, and Bush has never been good at that sort of thing.