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[pink_poodle]

1. Not one bit. I do think that Americans feel that they can.............

walk into people's countries and take over and the natives will think this is a great thing. But in fact, people actually do love their own countries and want to hold on to their homelands. Imagine that.

[truthspeaker]

2. No I'm not surprised.

I knew Saddam had to be up to something when his forces "melted away". There was no way he could win a conventional war agains the US, so he had to either give up or come up with an unconventional plan. He's not the type to give up. Any fool could have predicted this.

Well, almost any fool.

[E_Zapata]

13. This has NOTHING to do with Saddam,

who is probably dead, and if he isn't, he's far, far away from Iraq.......living luxuriously in Exhile.

Among many different factors, please keep in mind that the US rebuffed 1/2 million iraqi soldiers who, after the 'mission accomplished' point, showed up for work and pay and the US said...NAH....... and they went away angry. No...their FIRST inclination was to GO WITH THE US OCCUPATION. They didn't retreat in order to re-group as Saddam Loyalists in hiding. They were front and center and ready for the NEW REGIME.

and that's a fact.

And all this BULLSHIT about 'saddam loyalists' is PENTAGON PROPAGANDA. The people fighting are jihadis, and people who want their country back. It is neither here nor there if they were former Saddam military men.

I mean.....if the US was occupied, and I fought the occupiers, would they have the audacity to call me a BUSH LOYALIST? Now......that would get the occupiers into a heap of trouble with me!!!!!!!!

[truthspeaker]

20. I agree they would be fighting with or without Saddam.

But I suspect some of this was pre-planned by him.

I could be wrong. The country has weapons and ammo coming out the wazoo, and firing the entire Iraqi army was a HUGE mistake.

[Eloriel]

48. Just remember we BRIBED them -- Gen. Franks confirmed it

That was the delay in taking Baghdad. Remember that? THey got to Baghdad and mostly sat there for about 3 days. We were busy buying them off. That's why they melted away, but it also doesn't contradict your own theory. It just explains it a little better.

Eloriel

[northzax]

3. not at all

if a foreign power invaded and occupied my hometown, I'd figure out a way to kill some of them as well. As much as I want Chimpy to go the fuck away, that's our job, not the job of any other country. You better believe I'm going to fight. Why are iraqis any different?

[trotsky]

4. Yes

It was pretty much expected there would be resistance, but I didn't think it would last this long OR be this effective or relatively organized.

I fear for our troops' safety fighting *'s oil war.

[spinbaby]

5. Not really

I'm a bit surprised it took them this long to get started. For a while there this summer, I was actually thinking that we might have a chance to put Iraq back together again. Maybe they were just waiting for cooler weather.

[Blue_Chill]

6. I suspect that this is more then just "Iraqi Resistance"

These folks seem to be experienced at this sort of thing. Maybe even members of a group trained by the US to fight off another super power.

[TexasMexican]

8. no.

I'm not surprised.

[E_Zapata]

19. Nah, even feeble me could figure out how to defend MY country

if pushed far enough.

The most important thing to note is how long it took this quagmire to turn into a quagmire. The Iraqi people really and truly tried to roll with the new regime. MONTHS went by......not too many problems.

But you take away a group's food, water, electricity, a/c, and heat, schooling, jobs, etc. etc. etc. for LONG ENOUGH...........and spend all your time rampaging peoples' homes (remember all the nightly rampages through folks' homes) and treat them like dogs.....and then show no sign whatsoever of working to restore stability YET ya get the oil lines pumping.......

WTF did the the US think would happen.

The Iraqis absolutely GAVE the US a good number of months before it became obvious that the US was never going to get things stabilized.

Again, I am surprised that the Iraqis were soooooo patient.

And I remember Rummy himself saying we only had a few months to get some order.....OR ELSE chaos. He was right. Why? Because it's human nature to say: feed me, cloth me, and give me water. In fact, that was one JUSTIFICATION for not giving the UN Inspectors more time.....we couldn't START the war in the summer...because we needed to get things stabilized after the war asap......

[Blue_Chill]

31. Even feeble you can shoot down choppers and set timed rocket attacks?

Sure you can buddy.

Besides "Iraqi resistance," which I don't believe is the problem, wouldn't kill so many Iraqis and UN groups that are trying to help them.

This situation stinks of terrorist groups that have found a way to attack all it's western enemies in a area in which they have the advantage.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Interesting response. So how DID those Afghan fighters learn...

...how to shoot down Soviet choppers and set timed rocket attacks?

Do you think it even remotely possible that at least some Iraqis were taught how to employ those tactics knowing full well that we would be their next opponent in the war after Desert Storm? We do use a lot of choppers, you know.

And why do you think that killing fellow Iraqis is a problem, particularly when they probably believe that the Iraqis they're killing are actively cooperating with the "coalition" forces?

Also, which UN groups are trying to "help them"? All the Iraqi resistance sees are occupiers of their country...regardless of where they come from.

[IrateCitizen]

45. Then how do you flippantly explain this away?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1110-03.htm

... and this

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1112-01.htm


I'm sure that, given time, I could come up with COUNTLESS other articles to refute your assertion that the resistance is coming from the outside.

Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to ask what YOU would do, if it were a foreign power that invaded and occupied YOUR country? And would there not be people in your midst, people active in the resistance, who would have had some kind of training in military tactics and the construction of ad-hoc military devices? And just throw into that mix massive amounts of armaments suddenly left completely unguarded, ready for your taking.

Looking at it in that manner, it's not too hard to imagine, is it?

[NNN0LHI]

47. If America was ever invaded a percentage of our fellow citizens...

...would become collaborators. That is a given. Those that would collaborate have no understanding why Iraqis would kill Iraqis, or why they would not welcome us with open arms. So for them, this must be all caused by outsiders. They can't imagine anything else.

Don

[ugarte]

7. Urban guerrilla warfare is almost imposssible to stop

Ask the French in Algeria, the Tupamarus in South America. Uniformed soldiers are just more targets.

[rwork]

9. No not surprised.

The attacks will stop when the last unexploded ordnance is gone.

[mhr]

10. Do People Really Think America Invented Patriotism?

So sad that the Freepers are this misinformed.

So sad that GW is this misinformed.

So sad that Dubya's supporters will buy this tripe.

So sad that the world seems hellbent on repeating the same mistake.

[Zero Gravitas]

11. No

We invaded their country. We removed a brutal dictator and replaced his regime with chaos and trigger-happy foreign troops. The borders are wide open and the situation is an open invitation to jihadis everywhere to come and fight the "Great Satan".

[HPLeft]

12. Not really

...although I have to admit that this wasn't the scenario I expected.

The really bad news IMHO is that the Baathist guerrilla war may only be suppressing the Shiite desire for dominance in Iraq - and when, or really if, the US gets beyond this current phrase, they may have an entirely new problem on their hands.

[Jacobin]

14. Not in the least

This was predicted by lots of knowledgeable people, including Scowcroft, Bush I, etc.

Infidels will be repelled from Muslim lands. It has been so for thousands of years and is embedded in their culture.

The occupation simply will not succeed.

Too bad congresscritters don't know world history or ignore it to further their short term political ends.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. Absolutely not

It's what many of us were talking about when we said driving to Baghdad would be easy; it's the occupation that would be hard.

[Beetwasher]

16. Nope. This Was Totally Predicted Even By Us Here At DU

And we're not even experts.

The scary part is that the US "leadership" seems to be in some very serious denial. They think that by bombing the shit out of them it will curtail the resistance. It's quite obvious to anyone with half a brain that this approach will only make the situation worse, if that's possible.

[caledesi]

42. Yes, we predicted this before the attacks started happening.

No surprise here. (I remember Vietnam and the Nationalistic fervor of the Vietnamese to "wear us down until we leave).

[Aidoneus]

17. only that it was immediate

I'm familiar with the history of the resistance in Lebanon. Even then it was several months before effective pressure was placed on the Israeli invaders, who had within weeks murdered many thousands of people in the same fashion as the indescriminate bombing of Iraq, with large sections of the major Lebanese cities and villages in the path of the invaders smashed up.

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. I don't think it's the Iraqis who are causing the problems

The Iraqi people didn't like Saddam Hussein for the most part. I do think they are glad to be rid of him. I think the real problem over there is coming from outside of Iraq. Foreign influences are stirring the pot, which only keeps things unstable and really isn't in the best interest of the Iraqis. I'm sure plenty of Iraqis resent our troops because their presence is what attracts the foreign fighters. The ones causing all the problems are radicals who travel all over the place for the sole purpose of fighting on "behalf" of people who quite often don't want their "help".

[Beetwasher]

21. Sorry, but that's just not possible

Those foreigners would not be able to survive in Iraq w/out the help of the local populace. Read the articles today about the new CIA report. The resistance is becoming more and more widespread and inclusive.

[E_Zapata]

24. And you, I am afraid, watch wayyy too much mainstream media!

No offense......but.....don't buy into pentagon propaganda. Real Iraqis would naturally want their country back, and they are indeed working on it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. Hopefully you won't take offense at my response, but...

...your comments sound exactly like the stuff we've been hearing from the controlled mainstream media.

What is all of that stuff about "the real problem over there is coming from outside of Iraq", and "radicals", and "foreign influences"??

Let me ask you a question. If some country were to invade and occupy the U.S., would do you think would happen? Do you think we would roll over and play dead for a bunch of foreigners who only wanted our country for the raw materials? Do you think Americans would react negatively to the indiscriminate killing of other Americans? Do you really think we would need "foreign influences" to stir the pot and keep things unstable??

[leftofthedial]

22. considering it's basically the Iraqi Armny

and the war never ended, I'm not entirely surprised.

Unless something changes radically, we have no chance of "winning" in Iraq.

The Bush GOPNAC Cabal have created a US version of the West Bank.

[E_Zapata]

25. Is it the Iraqi Army? Are you sure?

Or is that what the Penatgon told you.

guys.....we really need to NOT buy into the propaganda!!!!!!

Isn't it pretty convenient for the Pentagon/White House to be able to call it an 'organized' resistance as opposed to the "liberated people" just wanting their country back. Oooooooo, Americans just really thrive on having an 'organized' enemy as opposed to just having people just so totally pissed off that they blow the place up.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. I seem to recall that the Pentagon has been telling us that Al Qaeda...

...is the major source of resistance, along with Baathist "dead-enders", and a few Army regulars.

Regardlees of who is participating in the resistance, the longer it goes, the stronger and better organized the Iraqi resistance will become.

[RedEarth]

23. -Not that surprised

Many people seemed to predict there would be strong resistance to the US invasion and it would cause an increase of terrorism in the middle east. It's tragic the bush admin didn't listen to both sides of the story.

[jobycom]

26. No, it's about what DUers were expecting to happen

This was discussed a lot by DUers before the war. Many concluded that the invasion would be over quickly but that the fighting would last much longer.

I think the biggest point of discussion around here was whether to compare the upcoming Iraqi invasion to our involvement in Viet Nam or to the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

30. Yup, this is a broad based resistance and those boys I'm sure

WILL be joining as soon as they can.

[TexasPatriot]

28. I'm extremely surprised

Imagine the most twisted combination of Algeria and Tito-less Yugoslavia, only add a valuable natural resource and politically aggressive greedy neighbors.

I'm surprised it isn't a LOT worse. In fact, I expect one of the reasons it isnt is that a lot of the players are keeping their cards close so they can use them when the REAL civil war breaks out. This isn't just unwinnable, it's so remarkably simpleminded it should go down historically as the bar by which all future idiotic military interventions will be judged.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Not at all. The CIA kept telling the Bushies that going into Iraq would..

...be problematic at best, but they were ignored in favor of listening to the newly formed OSP in the Defense Department. Bad move, IMHO.

Here's another way to look at it using figures from the following website:

Nation by Nation - Population Iraq
<http://www.nationbynation.com/Iraq/Population.html>

"Population:
24,001,816 (July 2002 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 41.1% (male 5,003,755; female 4,849,238)
15-64 years: 55.9% (male 6,794,265; female 6,624,662)
65 years and over: 3% (male 341,520; female 388,376) (2002 est.)"

The data above tells us that in 2002, 5,003,755 males were in the 0-14 year range. This yields approximately 350,000 males per year of age.

There were also 6,794,265 males in the 15-64 year range in 2002. Given that less males will be living during each year at the upper end of the range, it is probably safe to say that the 350,000 males per year found in the 0-14 range would also be found in ages 15-24.

So, one could safely say that the Iraqis have a pool of approximately 4,000,000 males (12 years x 350,000 males) that could be involved in the fighting against the "coalition" forces. Of that number, my guess is that only 10-20% are actually involved in the resistance. But, that still yields a potential force in the range of 400,000 to 800,000 men.

And it is also safe to say that the resistance is getting stronger and better organized with each passing day.

34. History shows it's not a surprise

just think of Napoleon and Moscow.
Hitler and Moscow

[truthspeaker]

36. history

or the UK in Iraq, for that matter.

37. UK

wonder what T.E. Lawrence would think about all of this?

[Aidoneus]

39. Lawrence doesn't matter much

the spy was just a troublemaker.

The notable thing is how much Chalabi & Nuri al-Said (Britain's murderous puppet dictator over Iraq) even look so much alike.

[Walt Starr]

38. Actually, I'm very surprised

I expect things to esalate to the level I was really expecting after they finish dropping those 2000 kb. bombs today, though.

[RobinA]

40. Not Surprised, Curious

I'd like to know the real story on who it is. Baathists, Shiites, foreigners (and if foreign, who or what).

I kinda thought resistance would take a little longer. I figured we would manage to set up some kind of government that was able to at least limp along with some semblance of order using the remnants of the old government. Then I figured the Shiites would get pissed off at their lack of representation (for lack of a better word) and start a guerilla movement.

I'm not surprised at the problems we are having with resistance, but I did think we'd be better able to get basic services going. But again, it's hard to really know what's going on over there, because it's impossible to find an impartial source.

[spindoctor]

41. Hate to say I told you so

Well, not really. As a matter of fact, I love to say I told you so to everybody who doesn't want to hear it.

Although I did some time in Lebanon myself (UNIFIL vet), I don't claim to be a (military) expert or anything, but this scenario was just too predictable.

There are numerous factors that contribute to the violence in Iraq vs one or two that work on establishing peace.
My crystal ball also mentions a full-blown civil war on the horizon as well. The more "we" now try to make a hasty retreat and handover governing responsibilities, the sooner we will see the effects of that. Yugoslavia couldn't exist without Chauchesku, Iraq cannot exist without Hussein. If this had been a war for good intentions, everything could have been resolved by now.

Unfortunately, we want something out of this and we can't return empty handed. That's why we didn't do the right thing then, we aren't doing the right thing now, and things will get a whole lot worse before they get better.

[dbt]

43. Totally unsurprised

In Gulf War 1, Saddam threw his forces head-to-head with the US and got clobbered. Duh.

In Gulf War 2, Saddam melted away and let the US cakewalk into Baghdad. That should have raised about a million red flags at the Pentagram: if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

The US sent in roughly enough troops to conquer Iraq, but not nearly enough to occupy it.

The only surprising thing about this Grand Adventure is the number of people who still don't see the parallels to Viet Nam.

:freak:
dbt

[IrateCitizen]

44. Absolutely, completely, totally unsurprised

This was discussed in an article by Scott Ritter that appeared on CommonDreams.org yesterday.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1110-03.htm

Published on Monday, November 10, 2003 by the Christian Science Monitor
Defining the Resistance in Iraq - It's not Foreign and It's Well Prepared

by Scott Ritter


DELMAR, N.Y. - In the Baghdad suburb of Abu Ghraib is a compound on an abandoned airstrip that once belonged to a state organization known as M-21, or the Special Operations Directorate of the Iraqi Intelligence Service. As a UN weapons inspector, I inspected this facility in June of 1996. We were looking for weapons of mass destruction (WMD). While I found no evidence of WMD, I did find an organization that specialized in the construction and employment of "improvised explosive devices" - the same IEDs that are now killing Americans daily in Iraq.

When we entered the compound, three Iraqis tried to escape over a wall with documents, but they were caught and surrendered the papers. Like reams of other documents stacked inside the buildings, these papers dealt with IEDs. I held in my hands a photocopied primer on how to conduct a roadside ambush using IEDs, and others on how to construct IEDs from conventional high explosives and military munitions. The sophisticated plans - albeit with crude drawings - showed how to take out a convoy by disguising an IED and when and where to detonate it for maximum damage.

Because WMD was what we were charged with looking for, we weren't allowed to take notes on this kind of activity. But, when we returned to our cars, we carefully reconstructed everything we saw.

What I saw - and passed on to US intelligence agencies - were what might be called the blueprints of the postwar insurgency that the US now faces in Iraq. And they implied two important facts that US authorities must understand:

• The tools and tactics killing Americans today in Iraq are those of the former regime, not imported from abroad.

• The anti-US resistance in Iraq today is Iraqi in nature, and more broadly based and deeply rooted than acknowledged.

SNIP....

[tom_paine]

46. Not at all.

"Liberation" is generally a guise for conquest. The level of resistance is determined by the perceived honesty of the "liberation".

For instance, in the extreme, the US liberation of France in 1944-5 did not engender resistance because everyone knew the US was actually there to liberate the French, who were themselves an in the grip of an occupying power.

In Iraq, everyone knows not only the first rationalization for the Iraq inavsionw as a lie (WMDs posing a threat to Amerika) but the second one too (bringing democracy to Iraq when Amerika no longer even has but a pale dfading shadow of it).

Therefore, they are reacting as anyone would to the Iron Boot of the Invader.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. Not Really, No

I don't have the experience you had, but i didn't think of Iraq as a third world nation. They had a huge military, at one time, lots of trained people, and the chance to organize ahead of the curve because of the looming threat of U.S. invasion.

After the invasion, all they needed to do was pull the pieces together. They could have stockpiled arms and explosives for months, even a couple of years. And, it's a big country with lots of big cities, and reasonable transportation infrastructure, so getting around the country is not a monumental task.

Besides, we heard from experts that the hard part would be after their military was defeated. So, the experts were right, and we should have expected exactly what is happening. Too bad for the troops led by this gang of buffoons in Washington, but i can't say i'm surprised.
The Professor

[Scott Lee]

50. Nothing makes the human soul shine like righteous liberation

And by that I describe the Iraqi resistance. Face it, folks. We are the invaders and occupiers, they are the ones fighting for their liberation. I don't like it but that's the way it is.

The only constant in this sorry game is that we damn sure will do it again, no matter what bloody nose we get this time.