There is only ONE way - for everything to change

[TNOE]

For some unknown reason I have found myself spending time on rightwing websites - I guess to try to really understand what we are up against not only between Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Indepdents, those that hate Bush and see what's going on and those the love Bush and say that those that hate Bush "just don't get it" or are not paying attention. Which is what we say to those that love Bush - you're not paying attention.

They poo-poo EVERYTHING - the Iraq war - had to do it - muslims are going to try and kill us all.

The Democratic memo - Great big deal.

The Wilson/Plame/Cheney affair - no big deal.

Of course I'm somewhat new to politics - ever since 12/12/00 - but I do not ever remember there being so much hatred and threats of death against one another. So much war, so much violence and all totally unnecessary. My mother is a Repub and my Dad is a Democrat - they've be married for 50 years for God's sake and now we have Republicans wanting to kill off liberals. Check some sites out - they really do.

The ONLY way out of this mess is to be single-issued minded for just a few months - then ballgame over. And the single issue is 9/11. They are going to try to use it and milk it for all its worth. We can't let that happen. If you have not educated yourself on the enormous amount of evidence leading directly to this administration's involvement in 9/11 - you need to do so. Until we can convince the other side that there were no muslims on those plans and Al Queada did not attack us - we are doomed for more police state, Patriot Act, Iraq & Afghanistan wars, then on to Iran, Syria, North Korea, etc., etc. Bush was not kidding when he said he was going to bring death and destruction to the four corners of the world.

We have major issues - black box voting, an upcoming election, the Constitution, the enormous deficit, the dollar, but mostly death and dying which should have never been.

They have banked on 9/11 being their key - we need to steal that thunder and make it ours. If the people will lead - the leaders will have to follow. 9/11 has got to be addressed first - and then Bush couldn't even hold on to the most die-hard Republicans if he wanted to. Healing is not going to take place between the parties - until we become united under one cause - and if the Republicans had "any idea" (although they should - but they are in absolute denial) - even they could or would not support Bush. If these millionaires are putting up millions to oust Bush - that is how dire our situation is. We need to create our own miracle - and change our own destinies and the desiny of this country for our children and grandchildren. None of us can afford to stay silent on this issue any longer.

Think about it. Thanks.

[librechik]

1. it's the idiotic leading the stupid

There's not much you can do about people that hate smart and don't want to learn anything about anything.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. The regime has decreed that the 911 events not be looked at too closely

The majority of the voting classes feel that "evildoers who hate freedom" is all the explanation they need, and it should be enough for you, too, unless you are a tinfoil hat conspiracy theoritst who is with the terrorists.

[mmonk]

3. This I know

and why I'm supporting Clark to expose the garbage. A general that will tell them and show them that this strategy and this elective war is wrong. Then they have to ask themselves, "who is more credible on issues of war and/or its necessity, GW Bush or a four star general".

[TNOE]

6. I'm wondering WHO will really drop the bomb

and come right out and say it. Whoever does it will go down in history and the greatest hero of all time. But who will have the courage. Clark has "hinted" at it - I believe Graham did too - but the truth is so close to the surface - it just needs to be broken wide open.

[TNOE]

4. Okay - this is exactly what I am talking about

All Republicans are NOT stupid - as Democrats are NOT all stupid - to constantly paint everyone with the same brush doesn't work. There are in my opinion many hateful Republicans - some that I would even go so far as to call "knuckle-draggers" and Democrats are becoming more hateful - mostly I think out of necessity.

But to some degree it is not their fault they have accepted the lie and have allowed themselves to be misinformed - blatently lied to. Their hatred toward Clinton and his 8 years has given them an excuse to look away at anything this administration does as okay - and maybe that was the set up. Many CANNOT and WILL NOT believe the truth of the matter - until the evidence is staring them in the face. We MUST put aside the hate and bigotry to achieve this - or we are all doomed - both parties, all people and all generations.

[blm]

5. That's where Gary Hart comes in

the author of the Hart-Rudman report on terrorism and Kerry's 1997 book on terrorism and his prediction about the upcoming war on terrorism. Who would you trust to prevent future terrorism, Hart and Kerry or Bush and Cheney?

Bush lost the fire fighters photo op when the International Association of Fire Fighters endorsed Kerry and will be campaigning for him. They feel he has the goods to do the right thing in REAL Homeland Security where they are the ones on the frontlines.

[ShimokitaJer]

7. There's never just one way

Yes, I think 9/11 is a good rallying point for us, since Bush has done such an abysmal job taking on al Qaeda, made the ridiculous move of cutting funding for first responders, and been so blatantly obvious about covering up and hindering the investigation. But it is far from the only way. Bush has screwed up in so many ways I'd hate for us to limit ourselves.

I think you need to stop hanging around right wing bulletin boards. It gives you a skewed sense of what the American people want. Sure, the extreme right wing will forgive anything Bush does and latch onto anyting the Dems do (or are even imagined to have done) but that doesn't mean the American people will do the same. The war in Iraq, coupled with Bush's gutting of veteran's benefits, is turning many military families away from his side. That's a constituency that the Repubs have always counted on being firmly in their camp. The divide between the Bush administration and the intelligence community also contributes to a sense that the Bush cohort are not the right ones to entrust with the protection of the US, and the Plame outing is a huge wedge in that fight.

Don't give up on important issues just because the Freepers tell you they're not important.

[mmonk]

8. we're not

just noticing what makes them discount alternatives.

[TNOE]

9. You know if I really thought your way could work

and it might in the long-run but there are so many variables at play - and I would put NOTHING past this administration - all out war, nukes, etc., etc. Anything to bring an end to their means.

I am not giving up on issues due to what any freeper may or may not say. It was an eye-opening awareness process - only the MOST SHOCKING HORRIFIC thing is going to turn these people back into reality - a reality where the parties don't hate each other - a reality that its not really very normal to want to kill all liberals, a reality that not all brown people are our enemy, etc., etc. No it doesn't give me a skewed since either - no matter how hard I try to be "one of them" - and to play along and drop nice helpful hints and have a dialogue - I can never hide my liberal leanings. I'm always called out - which is okay - but then I say - so okay - why do you feel like you HAVE to hate me because I am a liberal. And you know what - some will come to my rescue and defend my right. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist - but all people are not inheriently "evil doers" as * would have us believe. He has taken the most gullable portion of America - the religious right - those who are too afraid "not to believe" and not to ask questions (i.e., Baptists, etc.) and made a mockery out of the democratic process.

[ShimokitaJer]

10. Believe me... I think most Freepers are beyond redemption

There is nothing you can say, or will ever be able to say, that will turn them into rational, reasoning being able to consider the possibility that people who don't think like them are necessarily evil. The good news is that they aren't the ones we need to convince.

What I am warning against is buying into the idea that most Americans are like them. They've been playing that common hardworking Repubs vs. ivory tower hippy Dems tune so long that they've started to get some of us believing it. The truth is that most Americans don't think like them, and do have the intelligence to see through them. If most of the American people want affordable health care, protection of the environment, workers' rights, and better funding for education, I don't see why we should focus on the "one issue" that will turn Freepers heads. Sure, it's enormously satisfying to point out how wrong they are on 9/11, and you might even convince one or two. But why fight over their hearts and minds when there are so many out there who already want to support our issues but have been scared into not doing it.

The right wing media does not succeed by being correct; the succeed by controlling the terms of debate and forcing us to debate only those issues on which they believe they have the upper hand. You defeat them by refusing to talk about issues according to their rules and using their terminology.

[WinstonChurchill]

11. You're Saying Muslims Did Not Attack the World Trade Center?

With all due respect, you're either a Freeper or nuts (or both). This is no way for Democrats to retake the presidency, unless we aspire to having a president of a small insane asylum somewhere.

[Qutzupalotl]

13. No.

(on edit) No, we're not saying that.

But examine the timelines here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org

[WinstonChurchill]

15. Please explain this sentence then

From the original posting:

"Until we can convince the other side that there were no muslims on those plans and Al Queada did not attack us - we are doomed for more police state, Patriot Act, Iraq & Afghanistan wars, then on to Iran, Syria, North Korea, etc., etc."

the poster says that the al Qaeda did not attack us and no muslims planned it, right?

[WinstonChurchill]

18. Please Explain the Poster's No. 14 Posting

[TNOE]

14. Ummmm yea

I sound EXACTLY like a freeper although I've been on this board for 3 years and on the 9/11 Citizens Action Committee, etc., etc. You are one that apparently the finds the truth of the matter frightening to your sensibilities. Many are like that and many more will be like that. No - there were no muslims, it was an obvious military operation with stand down orders, put options, etc. Please enlighten yourself and do just a little bit of research - and the truth will become painfully clear.

Check out sites such as Whatreallyhappened.com; unansweredquestions.org; I have a very long list if the truth does not become apparent to you right away. Autopsies performed by doctors on victims of the plane crashs have confirmed there were no "arabs" on board.

[WinstonChurchill]

17. And Right Wingers Think Muslims Bombed Oklahoma City

Some with tin foil hats think that John Doe No. 2 was an Arab, who egged on McVeigh.

Saying the U.S. miltary blew up the twin towers won't win any elections for Democrats in 2004.

[TNOE]

19. I said it was a "mililtary operation"

big difference. Doesn't mean the US military was in on it - the one single issue is that a stand down order HAD to have been given - someone gave it - and someone told them to give it. Otherwise fighter planes would have been immediately up in the air as has been standard practice in the United States for 12 years - and there had not been a hijacking in the US in the past 12 years. Why? Because it can't be done.

The most telling and obvious point is - this administration obviously has SOMETHING to hide - or why hasn't there been full cooperation with the committee investigating. Me thinks they have a whole lot to hide - but most of the other countries KNOW what happened - it is only in the US that there is blindness to the matter.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

24. Oh, c'mon. . . .

Whatreallyhappened.com? Pull-eeze . . . . Isn't that that site run by a rabid anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist that blames the Jews for all the world's problems -- including, presumably, his own inability to hold down a job in Hollywood? We're supposed to look to HIM as a source of information to use to get our party back in power? Like I said, pull-eeze!

[TNOE]

26. Dear Mouse

good try. Why is it that when someone doesn't want to believe something - or doesn't want someone else to believe something - they immediately discredit the personality. Actually that site is awesome for its endeavors of speaking and showing the truth. After all - America rates No. 37 now in freedom of the press. That site is NOT anti-semitic - more anit-zionist.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

28. I'm sorry, but I must beg to disagree . . . .

. . . I've had occasion in the past to exchange e-correspondence with the man. I know of what I speak.

He also believes that Bill and Hillary Clinton had Vincent Foster murdered.

[TNOE]

29. Yea okay -

damn - just bumped my head falling off that turnip truck. Yes I'm sure he confided his inner most feelings regarding his anti-semitic beliefs too you. And yes, he does think there was foul play involved in Vince Foster's death. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about that.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

30. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, yes . . . .

. . . but everybody is not entitled to their own facts. And "whatreallyhappened.com" doesn't express an "opinion" that there was foul play in the death of Foster. Rather, it purports to assemble "facts" to "prove" that Foster was murdered at the behest of the Clintons!

And so this is the guy I'm supposed to believe has "figured out" what "really happened" on 9/11?!? Give me a break!

Can't you see that your "modest proposal" for how our party can recapture the White House in 2004 is predicated on a house of cards, assembled by nutcases?

Let's get real. Do we want to win, or not?

I can understand why some poster earlier suggested that you sounded like a freeper. Sheesh!

[TNOE]

32. Thou doth protest

A LOT!!!! phew. You know unlike the freepers - I am so unconcerned about what the Clintons did or didn't do the past 8 years - its unbelievable. His presidency is over with - get over it - he can't run again. We've got so many damn problems with this administration - its going to take us years and years to get things back in order. I cannot nor will not concern myself with 12 years ago. Its over!!! Now is now - we're in the present here with tons of problems this administration has caused and continues to cause for us.

Whatreallyhappened is not the only site - there are probably at least 30 or so more. All researched by various numbers of people with enough flamatory and incriminating evidence against this administration while we have seen ZERO evidence that it was Bin Laden from this administration - just their word, evidence which was given ONLY to Tony Blair - and oh yea, those undamaged passports that were found in the rubble unharmed (yea, um, did anybody fall for that?) and the named hijackers - 7 of whom have turned up still living in the Middle East.

[newyawker99]

33. Hi MousePlayingDaffodil!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[TNOE]

34. LOL Newyawker

Your're a good kid - but I don't think Mr. Mouse will be sticking around very long......... :)

[maveric]

21. Are you absolutely sure it was Muslims?

From what has been reported they were muslims but has there ever been any concrete evidence other than what bu$hco told us about Osama ordering 9/11 and the Mohammed Atta passport(found in pristine condition), in the rubble of the WTC.

I beleive that Muslims were involved. But other entities were also.

[TNOE]

23. Remember all the evidence

was given to Tony Blair - to prove to America that it was Bin Laden. Americans have never seen it. I think we all know how credible Tony Blair is now.

Edited for VERY BAD GRAMMER!!

[Qutzupalotl]

12. Think how dismal the Republican convention in NY will be

when people realize they let it happen in order to dominate the world, control oil prices, and create a police state at home...and if a few thousand innocent people die in the process, so what?

Count me in.

[ShimokitaJer]

16. No wonder they have to have it on a boat instead of on dry land

Otherwise he protesters would have drowned out the chorus of "Proud to be an American."

[TNOE]

20. I think they are running scared -

which is exactly why they are contemplating (? - still contemplating or decided?) to have it on a boat. Many, many, many Americans are on to them - namely the victims families of 9/11. There are going to be lots of protestors and signs - can't have average American Joe seeing that now can we. Which is exactly why Bush can only speak now with "choosen" groups. He's the most hated man in the country for numerous reasons.

[TNOE]

22. A Great Idea form the Citizens Action Committee

There is a simple, low cost, non-labour intensive way to get MAXIMUM
exposure on the 9-11 issue.
> >
See deceptiondollar.com "9-11 Visibility Project" and PLEASE urge all
contacts you know worldwide to begin organizing such events, and ALSO to begin urging mainstream peace & justice activists to get involved.

In Seattle and Kansas City the mainstream peace & justice movements are now organizing such events. THIS IS A BREAK THROUGH FOR THE 9-11 MOVEMENT.
> >



For the New Yorker's and others, if you go to deceptiondollar.com and click on "9-11 Visibility Project" you'll note that the suggestions offer a way to get MAXIMUM visibility with few people.

Rather than "Clumping up" 9-11 protesters in a group. 4 people stand on all four corners of an intersection with the "9-11 Cover Up" signs (which can say whatever people want them to), and the group moves on to the next intersection. leaving 4 more there, and on and on until spread throughout the downtown area.

In this way the group of 40 can cover TEN BUSY DOWNTOWN INTERSECTIONS . . . rather than a small 40 foot area. 100 PEOPLE CAN COVER 25 INTERSECTIONS, 200 50 INTERSECTIONS.

This is the advantage of the 9-11 Visibility model. It's not meant to tell people what to do, or to dishonour anyone's efforts to date, but to give another dimension to maximize efforts, and visibility.

Seattle and Kansas City will launch their 9-11 Visibility Projects on
Friday the day after Thanksgiving in the busy downtown shopping districts (that Friday is the LARGEST shopping day of the year).

We invite NY and other city's activists to join us. Visit
deceptiondollar.com "9-11 Visibility Project for more details, or email me at [e-mail]

[ElementaryPenguin]

25. Dems should make a commercial of * in the classroom on 9-11...

Doing absolutely NOTHING!! Asking no questions - giving no orders!! Simply frozen for a very long time in a place that could endanger all of those school children! That was some fucking example of leadership!! And THIS is what AWOL is planning on running on? Holy shit - what an incredible joke!!

You can intersplice it with shots of the towers burning (shots of people jumping out may be overkill that would backfire)! Why didn't AWOL even alert the airlines about this threat he was informed of?? Couldn't armed sky marshals have been able to stop a few guys with BOX CUTTERS??

Put the fool on defense explaining just why the fuck he continued to read the Hungry Caterpillar while another hijacked jet was heading for Washington?? Then let him talk about his all day cowardly bunker hopping - and explain why he hasn't found Osama Bin Laden - and what conceivable purpose did bombing Afghanistan serve - since we didn't get Bin Laden - and the Taliban is now taking control of the country once more??

[TNOE]

27. Oh that's easy

He continued reading the goat story to elementry school children FOR 25 MINUTES - BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO SCARE THEM!! I mean what would the children think if a President had to exit a room due to an emergency that needed his presidential leadership. I mean it wasn't like it was the worst attack in America's history - just a jetliner in a building, oh make that 2 jetliners. And besides - it was the bad media's job to scare all the little children by replaying the planes going into those building a HUNDRED FREAKING TIMES. The President of the United States of America whose job it is to protect Americans continued to read to grade shool children so they wouldn't be scared.............. inepitude, incompetance, compliance, or KNEW.

Not to mention the fact that the Secret Service didn't bother to swoop him up and escort him to a safe place. Everyone was very relaxed about the whole thing - Bush just thought that was one awful pilot.

[ElementaryPenguin]

31. Could it be that what AWOL had whispered in his ear was...

Sit tight. The D.C. plane left 30 minutes late.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. "didn't want to scare the children"

I asked my mother the ex-kindergarten teacher about that one, and she said that all he needed to do was say, "Sorry, boys and girls, but something important has come up, and I have to go take care of it."

An easy exit with no traumatization of the children.