I Am Giving MAJOR PRAISE To Howard Dean Tonight

[DoveTurnedHawk]

I just saw his interview on CNN, and he did an absolutely phenomenal job. All of his answers were excellent, particularly his nuanced understanding of how Turkish troops in Iraq would be a phenomenally bad idea. He was poised, confident, intelligent.

I had read elsewhere that he had slammed Clark in this interview. I don't see it that way. I think he was actually very complimentary of Clark, although he did raise some legitimate questions about Clark's Iraq war stance, particularly regarding his advice to Katrina Swett.

As a Clark supporter, I genuinely believe that the reason Clark has been tagged as wishy-washy on the Iraq issue is because in the past, he had (perhaps erroneously) viewed the IWR as mere leverage for the President, and that he believed the President should have returned to Congress for an actual vote approving formal war.

My belief fits in with Clark's lack of experience in Washington (perhaps he didn't know exactly what was in that bill, when it was being debated), and also his optimism. It fits in with what I suspect is his view that in his ideal world, an honorable President certainly WOULD do the right thing and go back to Congress. I think he underestimated exactly how evil Bush is, how sneaky he is, how much of a dishonorable politician he is.

I think Clark knows that Bush is all of those things now. But I really think he didn't want to believe that back then. Optimists like to believe the best of people, not the worst.

Anyway, I'm digressing from my main point. Kudos to Dean for what was, IMO, his best interview yet.

:toast:

DTH

On Edit: I also LOVED his campaign finance reform answer. Small donations plus public financing plus spending limits plus instant runoff voting. What's not to love about that plan?

[Ksec]

1. Dean Clark 2004?

Me thinks so.

[caledesi]

6. Dean/Clark....an unbeatable team. nt

[IndianaGreen]

2. Gee, DTH, none of us expected Bush to be this bad

We knew he was bad, but never to this Hitlerian bad!

It was an excellent performance by Dean despite the fact that Wolf was subing for Aaron brown.

[robsul82]

3. Dean/Clark...

...whoopity whoooooo. ;)

:toast:

Later.

RJS

[frank frankly]

4. I want to see this interview now!

DTH, you are exactly the kind of supporter any candidate would love!

:yourock:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Thank the Wonkster. (Here's his link)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=701123

And thank DTH :wow:

[Wonk]

65. Quicktime video here

41 M quicktime

2.5 M mp3 (repost)

[sandnsea]

5. Heard Howard go after Clark today

about Clark's 'phony' anti-war position.

That's what I said, that's what he did. Yes it's legitimte to talk about issues. I guess Clark's the only one whose anti-war opinions are legitimate to talk about. Go ahead and take the hit. Maybe it'll all work out.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. I'd Heard the Criticism of Clark Was in the CNN Interview

But there wasn't the faintest uttering of the word "phony" in that interview.

If he said it somewhere else today, please point me to it, because I'd love to know. Thanks.

DTH

[sandnsea]

10. 'phony'

That's why I typed it that way, to describe Howard's characterization of Clark's war position. That he wasn't being honest about it. Wishy-washy, is the way I think you described it, but I don't recall Howard using that term either. Well I've been down the wishy-washy road already and I'm telling you, you don't want to let it get out of hand. I like Clark and I'd be fine with him as a President. I don't believe he was anti-war either, but I've come to a point where I just don't care anymore. I'd hate to see Clark's campaign derailed over this, it just wouldn't be fair or right.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

15. Dean Didn't Use the Words Phony OR Wishy-Washy

You said he used the word phony; I didn't hear it. My use of the word wishy-washy above was my own characterization of how some people view Clark's position.

I also don't think this issue will derail Clark. I think he will continue to kick ass, his campaign has grown by leaps and bounds.

DTH

[sandnsea]

21. Exactly the same thing

You used the word wishy-washy, I used the word 'phony'. I didn't put Dean's words in quotes, these are quotes "", by the way. I'm sorry if you didn't know there's a difference. All I'm saying is ignore Dean bashes at your own peril, they start like this and get more viscious as they go.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. Umm...Huh?

You put the word phony in at least single quotes, which sure looked like a direct quotation to me. I bet if you ask ten people, at least eight say you were trying to quote him.

But regardless, even if your opinion is that Dean effectively called Clark a phony, as I said, I disagree with that opinion. I don't think Dean did that at all tonight.

DTH

[Bread and Circus]

41. DTH, I didn't see it...did Dean talk about Clark's position...

at all? Also, did he discuss Clark as a potential
running mate?

I am just curious because I didn't see it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. He Had Very Complimentary Things to Say About Clark

He reiterated his view that Clark would be on anyone's short list for VP, although he made some IMO legit comments about Clark's position re: IWR.

DTH

[Skwmom]

72. My understanding of Clark's IWR position.

Clark would have voted for a resolution that gave Bush leverage in future negotiations (as in we mean business) but not one that gave Bush a green light to go to war. Why was this so critical? Because without it Saddam would think we would not follow through on our threatened actions if he did not disarm.

In regards to Swett, she was running for office, Clark was campaigning for her, he told her to sign off on it ONLY afer vigorous debate (i.e., which based on everything he's said would seem to infer that it should have been written to give the president leverage not a green light). I think she probably wanted to vote for it because she was running for re-election.

Furthermore, once we had all of the troops over there and had given Saddam I don't know how many ultimatiums Clark made the statement on CNN about going to war because our credibilty was on the line (which would cripple future negotiations).

After everything was over Clark wrote an article in which in the open paragraph he compared the jubiliation of the IRAQI people to the people of Kosovo when they were liberated. However, throught the article he voiced strong concerns (for example, whether it would turn into a humiliation of the IRAQI people, whether we would ever find weapons of mass destruction, etc).

Clark throughout his writings (and in testimony) voiced concerns over our march to war and attacking IRAQ in what amounted to a preventative attack (as in preventing them from developing mass weapons of destruction) vs a premptive strike (due to an imminent threat which is legal under international law and of course which we would have to defend against). In addition, he was worried that if our concerns did not turn out to be valid it would damage our credibility (which it has).

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

23. Oh yeah, it's just me

There hasn't been any other posts on DU bashing Clark. Ok, whatever.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

34. Because the reference is to me

Just putting down what I said in the other thread, for the record. I'm sorry if the person misinterpreted quotes that weren't there, but that's not my fault.

[robsul82]

35. Dude...

...you've been saying in another thread repeatedly that Dean called Clark "phony" on the Iraqi war and DTH says it just isn't so. Let it gooooooooo. In the word of Dennis Kucinich, "HELLO?!?"

Later.

RJS

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. Yup

And I promise you, I was listening to that segment VERY closely. I was thinking to myself, "Ah, shit, here's where he's going to bash Clark. A pity, because it has been going so well up to this point."

And then it never came. I was very pleasantly surprised.

DTH

[sandnsea]

46. I never said it was in that interview either

In fact, I have no idea what he was doing when he said it. I saw a newsclip on either CNN or MSNBC news. He said Clark's war position was questionable and went on from there. You take it any way you want. When it gets worse, I'll be here to remind you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

57. I'm Pretty Sure It's the Same Interview

It was on CNN tonight. And it's obvious you and I saw very different things, and I'm about as big a Clark supporter as there is.

DTH

[sandnsea]

59. I saw a newsclip

A 30 second to one minute newsclip. Where he went into Clark's Iraq war position and said that what Clark is saying now isn't what he was saying then. And mentioned the Congresswoman and telling her to vote yes. Take it any way you want, but in my world when someone is making something up, it's 'phony'. That's all I said.

[sandnsea]

44. That is total bullshit

I posted one comment about Dean's remarks towards Clark. I can't help people don't know how to read. 'phony' is not a quote. It just isn't.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. I think your hatred of Dean has gotten kind of

irrational. Maybe you're hearing things that aren't even there because of it? Sometimes I get the same way towards Kerry, but I'm really trying my best to get a grip on that. Maybe you should consider doing the same. You really are always right there on every thread that discusses Dean saying some really far fetched things. Sometimes we all need to take a step back and get our emotions in check.

[sandnsea]

55. The poster says what I said, and tries to deny it

I made a short, simple statement. Dean went after Clark's 'phony' stance about being against the Iraq war. Phony not being in quotes, but highlighted the way a person does when they are trying to emphasize their own words.

The poster said:

"although he did raise some legitimate questions about Clark's Iraq war stance, particularly regarding his advice to Katrina Swett."

Dean went after Clark's stance about being against the Iraq war. Just like I said he did.

I have no idea why the poster of this thread decided to make this an issue, but I didn't say anything that wasn't true.

[KaraokeKarlton]

58. But you're usually trying to make something out of nothing

and honestly, it's really annoying, and not only to those who support Dean. To be blunt...it's really no wonder that Clark has been criticized over Iraq because the guy wasn't properly prepared when he entered the race. He was tripping all over his tongue and he was contradicting himself. He also did say plenty as a commentator that led people to believe he was in favor of the war. Anyone who is going to run for president is going to be criticized if they come to the race unprepared. That's what Clark did. Does that make him a bad guy or a loser? No, it doesn't. But it most certainly does leave him open to criticism. Would you rather have Dean criticize him relatively gently on this and give Clark an opportunity to get things straight or would you rather no one speak up and if Clark were to win the nomination just wait for Rove to get a crack at him? To tell you the truth, in the end of the primary race I think it's going to be a Dean/Clark ticket. You had ought to really think about that because it's a very likely possibility. Then what will you do, not vote for that ticket just because Dean is on it? I haven't heard you even say what it is about Dean's policies you think are so God-awful. All I've heard you do is express how angry you are with Dean and all I can gather is that you're just plain pissed off that Dean is doing better than the one you're supporting.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

60. I Think That's a Fair Assessment

God, in my fantasy world, Clark didn't do three things:

1) He never took that plane trip with the four reporters on the day after his campaign;

2) He never attended the Republican fundraiser in 2001;

3) He never spoke favorably of Bush, either in his articles or the other non-partisan paid speech at the college.

I'm also a multi-billionaire funding Democratic causes. :D

DTH

[KaraokeKarlton]

90. Thanks, I think it's fair too. That was my intent, at least.

I'm also a multi-billionaire funding Democratic causes.

Is this part of your fantasy world too? lol

If not, you should be planning some "lampoon Bush" political ads! ;)

[sandnsea]

61. All I do is talk about Dean's policies

It's his policies that make me insane, they aren't Democratic policies and this country won't benefit anywhere near as much as we could with ANY of the other candidates as President. And I really don't care if any one of the other candidates were beating Kerry, except Lieberman. I like them all and think they'd all do wonderful Democratic things for this country. Dean??? No. He's just too willing to sacrifice traditional Democratic programs like Affirmative Action, Medicare, environmental protection, labor, to name a few. He's a compromising centrist, and lies about it, and I don't want him as our nominee.

[KaraokeKarlton]

89. It's not Dean's policies or record you're upset with

Just from your post I can tell that you have been listening to false information that has been frequently posted on this site about my last governor. Dean is for Affirmative Action and always has been. Take a second and think about that Civil Unions bill he signed. Would anyone against equality on all fronts ever sign that bill? He didn't have to sign it, you know. He did sign it because he believed it was the right thing to do, despite how unpopular it was. Medicare, this is a program that Dean has consistently fought to make better by testifying in DC urging the lawmakers of this country to make changes to Medicare that would allow more seniors to get the help they need. He is also a vocal proponent of allowing seniors who are able to do so to get home care. Vermont seniors already have a prescription drug benefit. They have it because of Dean's hard work on health care. Environmental protection....Dean protected more of my beautiful state's unspoiled land than all other Vermont governors combined. Vermont has environmental regulations stronger than Kyoto calls for, automobile dealers are required to offer enviornmentally friendly cars for those who want them and Dean did a lot to fight sprawl. Labor...Dean endorsed the nurses at Fletcher Allen(Vermont's largest hospital) when they were fighting to form a union. He won the Paul Wellstone award for those efforts. Yes, he doesn't want to toss out NAFTA or international trade...but he does want to adjust them to prevent the loss and outsourcing of the jobs at home. There are benefits from trade just as there has been disadvantages. The smart thing to do is to take a long look at the pros and cons and make adjustments so that trade is the most beneficial it can be while minimizing the disadvantages as much as possible. It can be done if the effort is made. Dean will make that effort.

It sounds to me like you hate Dean because of what you think he stands for. The problem with that is that you are allowing yourself to be influenced by inaccurate information. I really hope, for your own sake and peace of mind, that you will take the time to do some research from other sources than those in Vermont affiliated with the Vermont Progressive Party. They are not Democrats and they oppose and trash good Democrats in Vermont frequently. Peter Clavelle, who is a member of that party has endorsed Howard Dean. So, clearly not all Vermont Progressives think Dean is the devil. I don't think you should believe that either, because it's simply not true.

[sandnsea]

98. Thanks for telling me how to think

I really appreciate that.

[Hep]

99. A little help

could you point me to any posts you've made that are honest criticisms of Dean's platform, please?

[Forkboy]

100. You should appreciate it

it was sound advice.

[KaraokeKarlton]

104. I'm not telling you how to think

I'm telling you that the things you claim to hate Dean over aren't even true. I suppose if you want to hate the guy over inaccurate information, it's your perogative. I just thought you might want to know that the information you're judging him on is basically a load of BS. If someone clued me into that and I was truly interested in being fair and knowing the truth, I'd look into it. Maybe you just want to hate him and don't want to know the truth.

[Scott Lee]

86. Thread for thread, post for post, Dean has gotten the worst of it

And I suspect deep down you know this. Cruise around DU and it's self evident. I can almost forgive this, as a front runner (especially one that upsets the statist apple cart so) is a moving target for most of the criticism. But let's not be dishonest about where the majority of the bile is being directed, ok?

[Ksec]

8. Not a good idea.

I think its going to be a real race between these two.

[HPLeft]

80. Dean has nerve...

...since, on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

Howard Dean is not an anti-war candidate. Dennis Kucinich is an anti-war candidate.

Howard Dean is an "any way the wind blows" candidate. And we're going to keep pointing out his waffles until the American people wake up and see this man for the opportunist he is.

[JaneQPublic]

9. Very gracious of you, DTH

Thanks!

By the way, for those who missed it, Newsnight re-airs at 1 a.m. Eastern, and there may also be a transcript in a day or so on cnn.com.

[KittyWampus]

11. Considering The Turks Want To Annex Kurdistan

I'm trying to understand your comment about Dean's "nuanced understanding of how Turkish troops in Iraq would be a phenomenally bad idea."

Isn't it a given that having Turkish troops in Iraq is a bad idea? Like Foreign Policy 101?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. Dean's Answer Pointed to History

Not the Kurdistan issue. It showed Dean had a reasonably detailed understanding of the region and its historical roots. Either that or he was really well-prepped, but that too is a sign of intellect.

As for Foreign Policy 101, Bush certainly didn't take that class. I also bet that if you ask the same question of all of the Democratic candidates, less than half would raise this issue.

DTH

[KittyWampus]

20. Good On Dean!

:)

[Skwmom]

70. Couldn't anyone grasp this information in like a 15 minute prep session?

You state: All of his answers were excellent, particularly his nuanced understanding of how Turkish troops in Iraq would be a phenomenally bad idea.

Have we set the bar so low? This has been written about in articles and discussed on tv. Plus, he did have talks with Clark over foreign policy. I've been able to grasp it and I think my 8 yr old son could also if I explained it to him (I'm serious). Am I missing something? This reminds me of the Bush/Gore debates where the talking heads praised Bush for his foreign affairs knowledge after the debate.

[Egnever]

22. Exactly his point

Why the hell was the state department even thinking of this?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

12. Thanks for that gracious assessment

I have watched just about every Dean interview for the last 6 months. You are right, he was phenomenal tonight. He nailed every single question with articulation and intelligence. If he were like that all the time, he'd be polling in the 60's right now. Amazing.

He was very fair with Clark, I felt. He kind of put himself in a poor position by ever criticizing Clark for being a Republican. That's one of the few things I wish he had never said. But tonight he was not confrontational about it, more matter-of-fact I felt. Certainly, despite his digging on Clark, he holds him in high respect.

I was equally impressed with his ease at answering very specific questions regarding the issue with the Turkish being asked to help in Iraq. Clearly, he understands foreign policy better than he's been given credit for.

He also did a great job fielding Wolf's questions about the Kerry commercial. He pointed out black and white differences with the Washington Democrats without getting personal.

I have nothing but deep respect for Dean. Whatever he ate for breakfast today, he needs to eat every day. Anyway he could do that in a debate?

[WillyBrandt]

27. Clark was never a republican

"He was very fair with Clark, I felt. He kind of put himself in a poor position by ever criticizing Clark for being a Republican."

For voting Republican perhaps, but Dean just made that "Clark was a Republican" baloney up recently.

I will say that Dean has been decent towards Clark recently, so I've little reason to bitch. Lieberman and Edwards--ugh.

[Wonk]

13. mp3 here for those who missed it

2.5 M

[Egnever]

24. Wow Wonk you rule!

As always!

[Donna Zen]

14. Once more with feeling!

he had (perhaps erroneously) viewed the IWR as mere leverage for the President, and that he believed the President should have returned to Congress for an actual vote approving formal war.

Remember when the UN told bush and Blair that the first resolution did not call for an automatic ticket to war? No? Well, it happened. In fact Blair's own lawyers told him the same thing. Can we be sure this is true? Yes. That is why bush and Blair went back to the UN to secure a second resolution....except, after counting heads, including the threatened French veto, they went to an island and came away two hours later, ready and primed.

Did the UN go to war with us? If the resolution had been the fabled one that sanctioned this war, why not? Because it didn't. That the Congress is spineless I have little doubt, and they would have certainly given the boy king anything to keep him smirking. But I think we need to keep the facts in order and quit accepting the spin as the truth.

Once more, the resolution was not the authorization for war. Blair's lawyers said so, the UN said so, only CNN, Fox and the regime said otherwise.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

19. But Kucinich has a much better record on these topics

Why not focus our efforts on the better candidate?

[Renew Deal]

29. He is not the better candidate.

We can have all out debate on this. I want to keep it simple. I know polls mean nothing but. Look at Clark, look at Kucinich.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

36. I'll keep it simple

Dennis is more for the people than any of the other eight. Perhaps by appealing to the more rightward voters the other eight are your better choice for convenience only? I would think it's time to elect someone that is for the little guy instead of their own ego and prestige of becoming POTUS. Don't you?

[not systems]

66. He voted against stem cell research.

Dean supports it.

For me it is a litmus test.

Sorry no sale.

[DrFunkenstein]

25. A Kerry Supporter Could Never Get Away With Saying That

As a Clark supporter, I genuinely believe that the reason Clark has been tagged as wishy-washy on the Iraq issue is because in the past, he had (perhaps erroneously) viewed the IWR as mere leverage for the President, and that he believed the President should have returned to Congress for an actual vote approving formal war.

My belief fits in with Clark's lack of experience in Washington (perhaps he didn't know exactly what was in that bill, when it was being debated), and also his optimism. It fits in with what I suspect is his view that in his ideal world, an honorable President certainly WOULD do the right thing and go back to Congress. I think he underestimated exactly how evil Bush is, how sneaky he is, how much of a dishonorable politician he is.

I think Clark knows that Bush is all of those things now. But I really think he didn't want to believe that back then. Optimists like to believe the best of people, not the worst.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Probably Not

But then Kerry was also right there in the Senate when it happened, so the association and correlation are both stronger.

Life just ain't fair sometimes. IMO, Dean also gets away with a lot more than many other candidates ever could. But you gots ta play the hand that's dealt ya.

DTH

[Upfront]

33. Dr. You May

not be an optimist who thinks the best of people. Or maybe it is just Dean that bothers you. Your focus is good though. Clark is a good man and will make a good VP and will add much to a Dean ticket. No one has won anything yet, but I wish we could find a way to just fight Rethugs. The Democrats are supposed to be the good guys.

[Donna Zen]

38. He testified

Before the bill was past. He also said in that testimony that Saddam was bad but Ossama was worse. He also said, going after Saddam would resources from Ossama.

Am I the only person that reads?

[Upfront]

28. Dean Was Great Tonight

Maybe his best interview yet. This is the Howard Dean I know and the man who will take back the White House. He handled some tough questions very well. Said Clark is a good Man, and he would consider him for VP. Also said no votes have been cast yet, so he had no right to even have a list. All of you folks who have doubts about Dean should make it a point to see this interview. :)

[frank frankly]

31. yep, he was awesome

sometimes I forget that Howard Dean will be POTUS in 2004.

with Clark as VP.

what a masterful interview!!!

thanks, Wonk!!!

[janx]

42. Was this on CNN? What time? What program?

If it re-airs, I hope to catch it.

[Egnever]

52. CNN re-Airs 1a,m EST 11pm PST

catch it if you can

[sfecap]

32. Very gracious, DTH.

This is nice of you. :-)

[Melodybe]

39. Hello, this is my first post here

I absolutely had to chime in with how much Dean kicked ass tonight. I think that one of the main reasons that I love Dean so much is his ability to stay in control of the conversation. Unlike so many, he makes it impossible for them to turn the question around on him. I can not wait for the debates, I think that I am going to tape them so that when my husband and I get bored we can watch Bush getting ripped a new one; over and over and over and over and over again! It will be good fun.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

45. Welcome Melodybe!

I haven't seen it yet, but it's recording on my TiVo at 10 pm!

:hi:

[Andromeda]

48. Welcome to DU Melodybe!

:hi:

[Egnever]

53. Welcome to DU!

I cant wait either!

This man is going to destroy bush.

Welcome to DU :bounce: :silly: :bounce:

[Skwmom]

77. Did you notice Blitzer even trying to turn the question around on him?

This was hardly a meet the press interview. My God it was a softball interview.

[RetroLounge]

40. Thanks for this post DTH.

Truly a class act (Both you and Clark!)

I wish I had seen the interview...

[Rowdyboy]

43. Not only was this a kick ass interview for Dean

but, coupled with SEIU and AFSCME this was a SERIOUSLY GOOD DAY FOR THE DOCTOR! You guys have reason to celebrate!

As a Clark supporter with Dean as my 2nd choice, I'm pretty sweet with it too!

[Julien Sorel]

47. Dean simply feels secure right now.

He was starting to make nice with the other Democrats in an attempt to look presidential until Clark came along and threatened him, at which point he quickly reverted to form. He is what he is, and I've seen enough of him to know I neither like nor respect him, and seen enough of his politics to know he isn't my cup of tea in the slightest.

If Clark continues to surge, you'll see the old Dean in 20 seconds flat: lying, bashing, twisting, attacking. A leopard can change its spots easier than a jackass can change its bray.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. You Might Be Right

But the reality is, that sort of ruthless, Machiavellian calculation is a pretty powerful asset in any politician.

I'm still full on board for Clark; but to be fair, I did think this was a great interview for Dean.

DTH

[Julien Sorel]

54. Major disagreement:

But the reality is, that sort of ruthless, Machiavellian calculation is a pretty powerful asset in any politician.

That's rationalization. Bush practices that sort of thing, or tries to, and it's put this country in a mess. When you lie or twist to win an election in a democracy, you demean the whole process, damaging the democracy in so doing. It's wrong and destructive when Bush does it; it's wrong and destructive when Dean does it. Some of the Kool-aid monkeys around here think it's 'Dean bashing,' but I think it's simply the truth: Bush and Dean are, by far, the two most similar candidates in this race. Their similar backgrounds are obvious, but an even bigger similarity is the sense of entitlement they both have: they both seem to think that they are entitled to power, and as such, ethics disappear, because what is 'right' is whatever serves their purpose.

Should Dean win the nomination, I would have to look at it this way: 4 more years of Bush, or maybe 8 more years of Dean? Neither alternative is particularly appealing to me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. I Guess I Don't Mind Ruthless, Machiavellian Folks

When I perceive them to be on my side. I acknowledge that's not necessarily a consistent or an admirable stance. But I do honestly believe that even though Dean is more conservative than I'd like, he would still work for Democratic programs and ideals.

DTH

[Rowdyboy]

62. I'm with you, DTH

I don't have to support someone 100% to prefer them to Bush. Hell, I'd have to HATE them to prefer Bush-UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

[JNelson6563]

79. You are a realist DTH

Here's a thought regarding ruthlessness and a Machiavellian mindset: In '92 one of the reasons Bush I lost was the fact that his party didn't support him. Left 'im to flounder which he did.

I have no doubt our party would do same if they had a candidate they felt would freeze them out completely.

I am certain Dean wouldn't let it come to this but we see just on our board here the folks who emphatically will vote for no one but their candidate, they'd rather vote for the simian than a Dem not of their choosing. Fitting, as they are idealogues, just like Team Bush.

Many of us are willing to accept some flaws and make some concessions in order to win. Seems to me some are more than willing to join teams too, it's just that important.

Thanks for your report on the interview. I haven't gotten to see them yet, meeting ran long last night....

You're a class act DTH, but I've known this for some time. ;-)

Julie

[kiahzero]

63. "What's not to love about that plan?"

Easy: Instant Runoff Voting. To sum it up, IRV is even worse than our current system. If we're going to change the way we vote, we should probably change it for the better (Condorcet or Acceptance, preferably Condorcet).

[DoveTurnedHawk]

64. I Love IRV

It would mean third parties might have a realistic chance. It's more democratic. It would save money on runoffs.

DTH

[kiahzero]

69. Your love has major flaws, then

http://www.electionmethods.org

I agree that we need a better voting method. IRV isn't it. It puts artificial constraints on the data, since it only considers the voters top choice at the given iteration. Condorcet doesn't have this flaw, because it considers the entirety of the voter's preferences in the first iteration. It also doesn't have major strategic voting flaws.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

73. I Think I Misunderstood IRV

What I want is a system where you rank the candidates, and then the lowest-ranked candidate after the first round of voting is eliminated, with his or her votes then getting redistributed. Then the next lowest-ranked candidate, etc. Repeat until you have a winner.

DTH

[kiahzero]

92. That is IRV

The problem is that you don't consider the whole of the voter's preference the first iteration; you just consider which one the voter likes the most in a given iteration.

Condorcet takes each candidate, and puts them into a pairwise matrix, and then figures out which candidates beat which other candidates.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

107. Sounds Too Complicated for the Average Voter

But that's just one man's opinion.

DTH

[dkf]

67. Would instant runoff voting turn into a win by popular vote vs. electoral

college?

[Skwmom]

68. I watched it twice:

I'm sorry but Wolf was lobbing softballs at Dean (not much better than an Oprah interview). Not one hard question and they are trying to paint Clark as VP (to derail his candidacy just like they did when Clark announced).

This will come back to haunt Dean: Dean said Bush had a personality disorder, that he liked to humiliate people. Great footage for Rove considering that there are articles on Dean calling people boneheads and other derogatory names.

[frank frankly]

71. please, skwmom

sorry to disagree, but I love it when Dean calls him dangerous and a threat to the free world.

rove will do what rove does.

they called max cleland unpatriotic, remember???

[Skwmom]

76. Calling Bush dangerous and a threat to the free world is okay

but when you start saying the guy has a personality disorder and he likes to humiliate people (especially when there are articles which paint Dean as a big bully himself who is not above humiliating people) the guy is asking for trouble. This is to easy to use to paint Dean as 1) a hypocrite and 2) unstable.

[Scott Lee]

85. Actually, read "Fortunate Son". Bush IS psycho.

He is notorious for being a psychotically vindictive person, who obsesses about revenge on those who he feels have done him. One case in point was where he shouted at an op ed writer and his family at a public place (restaurant) that he (Bush) was going to "get him" for his criticisms of Bush's daddy.

This is not normal, adult behavior and it's a well documented incident. Howard Dean was quite right to bring it up as a very dangerous personality trait.

[Skwmom]

74. In regards to specific comments you made

You state: "As a Clark supporter, I genuinely believe that the reason Clark has been tagged as wishy-washy on the Iraq issue is because in the past, he had (perhaps erroneously) viewed the IWR as mere leverage for the President, and that he believed the President should have returned to Congress for an actual vote approving formal war."

I believe he wanted the IWR to be written in such a manner that leverage is what it would have provided. I believe that is also what many members of congress were arguing for.

You state "My belief fits in with Clark's lack of experience in Washington (perhaps he didn't know exactly what was in that bill, when it was being debated), and also his optimism. It fits in with what I suspect is his view that in his ideal world, an honorable President certainly WOULD do the right thing and go back to Congress. I think he underestimated exactly how evil Bush is, how sneaky he is, how much of a dishonorable politician he is."

Clark said the bill should be vigorously debated. I'm sure he would have known what was in the bill if he was required to vote on it. As far as knowing the details of the final bill - probably not because he was busy with other endeavors and was not into the details of what was in the final bill. Clark did not underestimate Bush, if you've read any of Clark's articles, transcripts and other writings, he again, again and again expressed strong doubts about the whole war and the grounds for going to war. I'm sorry but the picture you paint here is just not accurate. Clark might try to deal with the hand he is dealt, but the man is no nobody's fool (he doesn't view the world through rose colored glasses).

[DoveTurnedHawk]

75. Jesus, I'm Not Calling Him a Fool

Tamp down on the defensiveness a bit, please.

My impression is my own. I know he wanted vigorous debate. I know he wanted the President to have to explicitly come back for approval. So did most of the Democrats in Congress.

Unfortunately, we didn't win that fight, and the Dems were forced to vote for a deeply flawed resolution that at the time was the closest equivalent to a political no-win situation that we'd seen in years (well, the USA PATRIOT act falls in that category too, IMO).

The bottom line was that when asked about this, in an up-or-down context, he stumbled when he said he'd probably vote for it. My guess as to why he said that is either momentary confusion after an hour-long interview with four reporters peppering him with questions, or my optimism theory above.

DTH

[Forkboy]

95. It's sad that even a staunch Clark supporter as yourself

get's this level of vitriol from fellow Clark supporters.It doesn't suprise me,but it is sad to see nonetheless.

[REP]

78. Tit-For-Tat Time

I've been impressed more and more with Clark the more I hear from him. I'm a Dean{insert suffix}, but I actually respect Clark as well.

Dean/Clark 2004!

[CWebster]

81. DoveTurnedHawk

Compliments on your clear-headed honest and objective assessment - not blinded by cult worship. An example of the way we should all try to view things.

[Le Taz Hot]

82. Thanks, again, to Wonk

for providing the video on this interview. Dean was excellent! Wolf tried time and again to get him to trash the other candidates and he didn't do it. The only halfway negative thing he said about Clark is that he needs to clarify his position regarding his position on the war in Iraq -- hardly a slam. Otherwise, he was very complimentary and stated very clearly that he would vigorously endorse whoever gets the nomination. It's interesting that I haven't heard any of the other candidates say that. Maybe they have, I just haven't heard it. Dean does SO much better on a one-on-one interview.

I could SO see this man as president. I have some hesitation about Clark as VP simply because Clark and Dean are both Washington outsiders and we all know what the insiders would do to them (remember Clinton and Carter). However, I do think a Dean/Clark ticket would be unbeatable. Dean on domestic issues, Clark on foreign policy issues and he helps with maybe a few states in the South. This is ticket looking better and better.

[CMT]

83. I thought it was a good interview too

Thank you for your account of the interview.

[Zynx]

84. This was a great performance by Dean last night.

I was worried he was losing some of his fire because of all the criticism he was coming under, but he showed he still has it. He was smooth and slick with his answers and didn't fumble on any of his answers.

[Hep]

87. Is there a transcript?

??

[JaneQPublic]

91. Here's the transcript

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/12/asb.00.html

Dean's interview is a bit more than half the way down on the page.

[Hep]

97. Thanks!

That rocked!

[poskonig]

88. I agree; Dean was solid.

He gave direct, clean answers, which is what Dean is best at.

I hate it when Dean gives the stumped crap in interviews and debates. His delivery is usually horrible when he tries to speak Washingtonese. Keeping it simple, like he did last night, is *definitely* the way to go.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

93. I'm sorry but Dean is not best at giving direct, clear answers.

The flag flap and his trouble (resistance really) apologizing for it are a very good example.

[KaraokeKarlton]

94. He probably would've apologized at the debate

if his opponents hadn't misrepresented him. I think he handled it properly. He was being attacked quite unfairly. Anyone who has heard Dean talk about the Confederate Flag knows full well what he was saying and that he wasn't glorifying the flag. His opponents were dishonest in how they chose to approach the issue and Dean's sentiments about appealing to poor white southerners are not wrong or something to apologize for. If someone attacks Dean, he's going to let them win by giving them what they want from him. I think the others are the ones who owe him and voters an apology for trying to use race baiting to divide the party. I would feel the same way regardless of who this was done to.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

101. there was a young man standing right before Dean asking

for an apology. And I don't think he handled THAT properly.

[Forkboy]

96. If Dean walked on water

some would say it's only because he can't swim.

[Hep]

102. You're sorry, but?

Are you really sorry? I question that.

[ElementaryPenguin]

103. Just read the transcript! I agree - Dean KICKED MAJOR ASS!!

Clark/Dean, Dean/Clark, Dean/Clark, Clark/Dean - they can take us to the promised land, folks! SO DON'T KNOCK EITHER! They will both do nicely in slaying the Evil War Chimp and his foul henchmen!

[David Zephyr]

109. E.P.

Goo Goo Goo Joob :hi:

[David Zephyr]

105. DTH, You Smell the Winner.

Great sense.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Nah, Clark Is Still the Guy

He has the best chance of beating Bush (and if Clark gets the nod, he will be practically forced to pick Dean, IMO, to bring his grassroots support and fundraising abilities on board), but I also think Dean has a shot at beating Bush (and if Dean gets the nod, I think Clark would be a very strong VP choice for him as well).

DTH

[Closer]

108. WOW

DTH,

This is a welcomed change! Thanks for your kind words!

And you're absolutely right, Dean didn't bash Clark at all. Dean is a very principled, straight-forward person, and he is HONESTLY still disturbed and troubled by Clark's support or NON support of the war. Dean was VERY upset when Clark first came out in Sept. that he supported the war (in the NY Times front page piece). I think Dean felt cheated and misled. Before that point, I think, Dean was VERY much considering Clark for the VP slot. Now, I'm not so sure. But I DO think Dean is still open minded, and if he gets the nomination, he will give Clark a chance to explain himself better.

Thanks again for the positive post. It's refreshing. :-)