Founding fathers quotes about religion........ I need help w/a Freep

[Clark Can WIN]

I got an email from a fundie questioning how I as a Christian could be so adamant about the seperation of Church and state "when this is clearly not what our Christian founding fathers intended"

So, in celebration of the removal of "Reverend Roy", does somebody have a nice list of those? I used to keep one until my hard drive had a meltdown.

Thanks in advance.

[Mari333]

1. Try this

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html

[wryter2000]

5. Thomas Jefferson

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Thomas Jefferson

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_sep_danbury.htm

[wryter2000]

9. This was the one I actually wanted by Jefferson

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.

[Clark Can WIN]

15. Fabulous............... that's a really good one too

Because as a Christian, I believe in respecting the rights of athiests and agnostics as well as other religions.

I believe Christians should spread our message through our own faith and good works, not by hounding and harrassing or with multi ton granite behemoths in public courthouses and definately not by the barrel of a gun.

[Patriot_Spear]

28. More Jefferson Quotes...

Thomas Jefferson firmly believed in keeping religion out of government and he said it more than once.


Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

[cosmicdot]

52. don't know if this'll help - but, it's a great link

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/

[Clark Can WIN]

6. What a great site.........

Hadn't seen that one before, Thanks!

[HFishbine]

12. What exactly is a Diest?

?

[Patriot_Spear]

25. Webster; Deist

"One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

[pocoloco]

30. "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine

is a good read of a Deist viewpoint.

[tom_paine]

36. Here's a link

http://www.scaevola.com/deism/

These dumbass Freepes never learn. Even if your shove their face the Founding Fathers' deism, you won't make a dent in their ignorance of King George, so to speak...

[HFishbine]

32. I see

Thank you. Sounds like me.

[proud patriot]

2. I'll go find some

:hi: be back

[elfwitch]

3. might be able to help...

there was a great article a while back on Liberal Slant that addressed this very issue. I'll see if i can find the link and post it for you.

[elfwitch]

27. stuff I found

Couldn't find the one I was looking for but found these instead...

http://www.freelancestar.com/News/FLS/2003/022003/02132003/877676/printer_friendly

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/amr/amerc.htm

This is the best one:
http://www.au.org/resources/Brochures/Is_the_United_States_a_Christian_nation.pdf

[Clark Can WIN]

29. I KNEW this was the right place to come for answers

thanks elfwitch

[elfwitch]

38. No Problem

I take any opportunuty I can to help people out on this issue. I have felt a little oppressed all my life by those who would try to hammer me over the head with the whole "Christian Majority" thing. It isn't easy being Jewish in a so-called Christian nation. The only problem is that the ones you are trying to fight are so enraptured by their dogma that a reasoned debate will generally fall on deaf ears. But fight the good fight, I always say. The best we can all do some days is to change the world one person at a time.

[DrWeird]

4. Thomas Jefferson-

"That clause (the first amendment) was intended to erect a wall of seperation between church and state forever."

(paraphrasing)

[ant]

7. some here

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html

[redqueen]

8. Some helpful quotes.

from http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. , in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
Thomas Jefferson


"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
Thomas Jefferson


"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by it to this filthy book ."
Thomas Paine


"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it."
Thomas Jefferson


"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God."
Thomas Jefferson


"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson


"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
Thomas Paine


"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
Thomas Paine


"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine


"Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions."
George Washington


"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]


"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790


"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause."
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792


"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction."
George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102


"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists...."
George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


"To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical."
George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


"...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


"As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority."
George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


"With just these examples, you have the facts necessary to rebut any fundamentalist who proclaim this to be a Christian nation "just as the founding fathers desired".

The fact of the matter is much simpler. Every single nation that has ever been forced into the folly of following any of the silly superstitions invented by the greedy and ignorant has come to ruin and catastrophe. The single most fatal disease that can afflict any government is to be inflicted with the wasting infection of any fundamental religious disorder. Witness every single nation ruined by the sickness of fundamentalist Islamic governments. Witness the depths of evil that America has descended into now that self described fundamentalist Christians have stolen away your government and dedicated its future to the murder of anyone with the least hesitation in following along with their evil plans for the world and the oil it holds. God doesn't care about nations or governments or politicians. Why would any god worthy of the title care so much as things of so little value?" -- j. cannon - site operator
--------

Damn, that is some good stuff... I'd like some more cites as to where the quotes were from, but overall I'd say it's a wonderful resource.

[GinaMaria]

14. Wow

This deserves a bookmark! Great job.

[Clark Can WIN]

18. Holy Smokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

That is definately going into the archive!

Amazing! Thanks!

[a_random_joel]

10. Try this as well...

http://www.deism.com/

http://www.deism.com/washington.htm

[CO Liberal]

11. Try William Edelen's Web Site

William Edelen has had a lot to say over the years about the truth concerning our Founding Fathers. That's why so many Bible-thumpers objected to his columns every Saturday in The Pueblo Chieftain.

When the Chieftain dropped his column, I cancelled my subscription.

http://www.williamedelen.com/

[Clark Can WIN]

22. This is the problem I have................. It's with their ignorance

Where the hell did it get started anyway this idea that the founding fathers were some kind of champions of religion? Is it just some fantasy started by the segregationists or some other equally vile group or what?

[pocoloco]

49. Wow! After reading a couple of his columns I had to

stop and make sure that I thanked you for sharing him with the rest of us! Thanks again!

[Capn Sunshine]

13. try this too for general fundie refutation

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org

[Clark Can WIN]

26. Good one Capn!

You should see their heads spin at Church when I tell them Jesus is the worlds most popular liberal.

[Zero Gravitas]

16. Try the Constitution

If the founding fathers really did intend the US to be a "Chrisitian Nation" tsurely they would have put that in the Constitution.

The number of times the word "God" appears: 0
"Jesus": 0
"Christ": 0
"Christian": 0

The only mention of religion in the original Constitution is "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. "

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

religion, of course, is also mentioned in the 1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

So its obvious that the founding fathers did not intend the US to be a Christian nation otherwise they would explicitly have made it so in the Constitution. Clearly they intended this country to be one in which people should be free to practice whatever religion they chose. Or not to believe if they so choose.

[ithacan]

50. yes. They easily could have incorporated religion/god into Constitutio

BUT THEY DIDN'T!!!

These idiot fundies just can't quite grasp that.

if the "founding fathers" had intended for this to be a christian nation they could very easily have included those words or ideas into the Constitution. Nothing would have stopped them, they were starting from scratch, and such an idea would not have been particularly novel.

They could easily have included a whole section on God and Jesus and all that religious stuff.

BUT THEY DIDN'T!!!

Here's another excellent but scary website:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

[proud patriot]

17. Here's a few links for you

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

http://www.nofaith.org/a_founders.shtml

http://www.aztriad.com/fathers.html

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march96/morris.html

http://www.museumstuff.com/articles/ar204881063044080.html

[wysimdnwyg]

19. Try this one...

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The courts have long held that this ((c)ongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof) means that the government can not dictate which religion a person should practice, if any at all.

[neuvocat]

20. My own pastor

pointed out that the U.S. was not founded as a religious state.

[Clark Can WIN]

31. Mine dodges it, and all other highly controversial topics as well

Which is ok with me. There''s plenty of things we can all do together without jumping into political quagmires.

[elfwitch]

42. My Rabbi...

The head Rabbi at the temple I attended in San Antonio wrote a great book on a myriad of subjects. One of the things he addresses in the book is this subject. The book is a wonderful read for any reason, but the best part is how he addresses issues like church and state, abortion, and so on....

If you got the funds and want something great to read try this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0890159319/qid=1068750481/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-8295463-6272156?v=glance&n=507846

[sybylla]

21. DU'ers and religious freedom

Gotta love 'em. :yourock:

You all beat me to the punch and have done a wonderful job. Picked up a few new ones myself. Brings tears to the eyes to see such a response.

[Patriot_Spear]

23. Drop this bomb on him- Congress: 'US not founded on Christian faith'

The Treaty of Tripoli, Ratified by the United States Senate June 10, 1797; Proclaimed June 10, 1797

ARTICLE 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Now be it known, That I, John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all others citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfil the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.

[Clark Can WIN]

34. WOW now there is a ZINGER!

I've never ever seen that one before......... Thanks!

[DarkPhenyx]

40. What I like about the Tripol Treaty is that....

...it is an official, signed, binding document. It isn't some obscure personal letter. It isn't a non-political treatise written by a FF. It is a legal document ratified by the government of the United States. IMHO that trumps any "proof" they have come up with yet to try and say otherwise. Till they come up with a similar document it will continue to trump them.

[Patriot_Spear]

43. I've had this argument before- this evidence always finishes them off...

Authorized by Congress and signed by one of the three men who oversaw the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Is there anyone more 'founding father' than John Adams? Moreover, the Treaty was orginally penned under Jefferson.

Slam dunk!

[catzies]

24. I like to say that the Founding Fathers meant the 1st Amendment

As a means to keep government out of religion, but our challenge today is to keep religion out of government.

[DarkPhenyx]

33. Best argument against "US is a Christain nation"

Tripoli Treaty It specifically states that we are not. It is dated 1797 so it is contemoraneous with the Founding Fathers.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/archive/boston_tripoli.html

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

What the FF's may have wanted and what they were willing to settle for are two completely different things.

[arcane1]

35. beat me to it!

:toast:

[Patriot_Spear]

37. ...And you're both only 19 minutes behind me!

Sorry, couldn't let that slip by. :evilgrin:

[DarkPhenyx]

44. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Ef-eh-you! :)

You only beat me to it becasue I lost power here at work and had to go chasing down blown circuit breakers!

So there! :P ;-)

[Patriot_Spear]

45. LOL.. excuses, excuses...

...the ole' 'circuit breaker popped' dodge... I gotcha.

:spank:

[DarkPhenyx]

51. Actually it did.

We ahve some high winds here today and apparently we lost power for a few seconds. The generator kicked in for that short period, then the power came back on. Apparently it was enough to blow a couple circuits.

[Clark Can WIN]

39. Thank you so much DU

This is such an amazing place. Safe to say I have a wealth of information to fire back. This is truly heartening.

[Democrats unite]

41. What a wonderful thread

And thanks to everybody who contributed to the resources, to counter the conservative view that we are a christian Nation.

I am a christian, but I also believe in the rights of everybody to have the right to believe in whatever their belif is. Thanks a bunch all.

edit spelling

[SteveG]

46. some resources

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians
www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

Quotes from the United States of America's Founding Fathers
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html

AMERICA- Not A Christian Nation Another site with more quotes of the founders
www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html

Notes on the Founding Fathers and the Separation of Church and State is written by a Christian and includes an interesting argument about the American Revolution itself being "Unscriptural".
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

and last, but possibly the most extensive
Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church
Ed and Michael Buckner
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

[Shakespeare]

47. An excellent piece by Madison

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html

An excellent, excellent treatise.

And if you really want to see a Freeper's head explode, have them read the Jefferson Bible.

[nemo137]

53. oh, man

"Memorial and Remonstrance" is one of the best pieces on religion and state ever. good call.

[delhurgo]

48. Here's some more; some of these may be repeats of earlier...

...posts. Included are John Adams, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison (sorry its so long):

John Adams:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, 2000 Years of Disbelief , John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." -- Treaty with Tripoli (Article 11), 1796-97, Written during George Washington admin., passed during John Adams admin.


Benjamin Franklin:
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard , 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard , 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, Articles Of Belief and Acts of Religion , Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , Works Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but practiced it on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard , 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin


Thomas Jefferson:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition , edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia , Jefferson the President: First Term 1801-1805 , Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom , 1779, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson , edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom , 1779, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson , edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:545

"...our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom , 1779, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson , edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:545

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition , edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 108

"I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them."--Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, 1802, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition , edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, Elementary school Act, 1817, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition , edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

"(When) the (Virginia) bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protections of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantel of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography, 1821, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition , edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1:67

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, Six Historic Americans by John E. Remsberg
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Six Historic Americans by John E. Remsberg

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity . What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-85), Oxford Dictionary of Quotations

"The proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion is depriving him injuriously of those priviledges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natual right."--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom , 1779, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson , edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I contemplate with soveriegn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT. The Complete Jefferson by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt in 1813, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial Edition , edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 14:21

"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution."--Thomas Jefferson, 1776


James Madison:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."--James Madison

[Blue Gardener]

54. Thanks for all the great quotes!!!

I'm so sick of the fundies trying to convert me, this information will help immensely. I've passed along to all my heathen friends. Excellent topic!:yourock:

[alcuno]

55. Check out the Treaty of Tripoli - 1797!

I saw this on Olberman the other night; here's part of the transcript.

"It’s unclear just how much the country really was founded on Christian beliefs, as the fundamentalists, Miss Barrett, just said in Jim Avila’s report. 1797 is not the dawn of the republic, but it’s close and that’s when the U.S. settled a piracy dispute with the Barbary Coast by ratifying the “Treaty of Tripoli,” passed unanimously by the senate during the administration of President John Adams. Article 11, reassures the residents of Tripoli that the U.S. has no religious ax to grind against them. To quote it:
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”"

What was that?

"AS THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION....."

[nomatrix]

56. The best line I ever heard is

"Don't tell me your a christian, let me figure that out for myself."